- placeholder for now, nearly there. JennyOz (talk) 12:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, looking forward --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 20:23, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hello TRM and Dweller, I've been watching this blossom since its appearance at RD. I have a lot of comments (Dweller don't worry, TRM is used to my nitpicking) but most are simple suggestions for concision. Without access to Finch, I've had to guess some things so ask for clarity and others are more to do with my minimal understanding of how leagues etc work. I'm really happy for you to ignore suggestions not useful. I have a few more questions/comments that I will hopefully add tomorrow, though nothing major.
- Lede
- position - lede says "centre-half" (half), infobox says "Central defender" (defender)
- Hmm. Anachronism ain't what it used to be. Centre-half is old fashioned speak and is what he'd have called himself. I've fixed the infobox. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:05, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- team-mates - others are teammate no hyphen
- Great spot! I've gone the other way and hyphennated them all --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:05, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The early part of Beattie's life was a tale of rags to riches, - not really early part of "life", early part of career?
- Fixed --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:02, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- before finding purpose once more - again?
- Not sure what the issue is here --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- new career in later life in commenting - is second "in" needed?
- Nice. Fixed. And I fixed a bit more than that, too. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- on the television and radio - is 'the' necessary?
- Hah! Just addressed this before I read your comment. Agreed! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Former Ipswich (and later England) manager Bobby Robson -"former" and "later" is confusing, why not just Ipswich and England manager?
- Because that implies two errors. Both that he had the two roles simultaneously (he didn't) and that he still holds them (he's dead). The point is that he managed Beattie at Ipswich, so has the authority to talk about Beattie, and managed England after Beattie's time, so is well placed to contextualise his skill. Is it really confusing? Might need a bit of a headscratch to find a pithy way to explain this suitably for a lead. --15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- Early life
- born in Carlisle on 18 December 1953 - an online ref (No 1?) for dob would be handy here (for future otd etc)
- The Rambling Man? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Added from Guardian obit. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:23, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- five boys and four girls - out of curiosity, was he oldest boy, ie often oldest gets father's name?
- The Rambling Man? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Book doesn't say. "... I also had four brothers and four sisters ...." The Rambling Man (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- as his father was also named Thomas Beattie - Beattie not needed?
- I've looked at this and think it's needed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Lipton tea shop - Does Finch say Lipton or Liptons?, ie Liptons, no apostrophe, per logo on Lipton
- The Rambling Man? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- "a shop for the Lipton Tea Company"... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:37, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- His father Thomas also played football as a goalkeeper - add comma after football as Kevin not a goalkeeper (or remove "also")?
- Yes. Done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- In later life, Beattie reminisced, "There was often only food - reminisce is usually used for fond memories - Beattie 'remembered' or 'recalled'?
- OK fixed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- often hung around Brunton Park" - wlink Brunton Park?
- I think we don't normally wikilink in quotes, is that right, The Rambling Man? There's a good argument here for one. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- No problem, it's probably obvious enough what it is. JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Eleven-plus - add "exams" to save reader needing to wlink
- Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Although Beattie passed his eleven-plus, his family could not afford the grammar school uniform - connection between exam and uniform not apparent to outsiders? Not sure what to suggest
- Not sure what the problem is. He passed the exam, but couldn't afford the pricey uniform for grammar school. Not sure how to word it more clearly. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:19, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The Magpie - is that name of pub or team?
- To me, it seems self-evident it was both. The Rambling Man? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Unnecessary detail in my opinion, and I couldn't find it in Finch, so just left it as a pub team with his dad. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:46, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- worked as a machine fitter and delivery boy in factories, a warehouse, a dry cleaner and then a furniture company. - was he a fitter and delivery boy in all those places? Needs punc change?
- Fixed --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Career
- Aged 15, Beattie was playing for Blackfriars - previous para sounds like he left Blackfriars before turning 14
- Clarified --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:54, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- he returned home on the next train to Carlisle - sounds immediate, Groves says he waited an hour then assumed they'd lost interest
- I think he waited an hour and still caught the next train, but in any case, dropped the latter as unnecessary --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:54, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's important to add a little here otherwise it might be read that he simply changed his mind or worse still, left in an impatient huff? Maybe "With nothing but his boots..." could be reworded as 'After waiting an hour and assuming they had lost interest, and with nothing but his boots and train ticket, he returned home to Carlisle.'? JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- No objection, reworded per your suggestion. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- as amongst one of his biggest mistakes - "amongst" redundant
- Ooh yeuck, nice spot --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:54, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- as an apprentice soon - apprentice wlink to Glossary of association football terms (once you've added 'apprentice there:). What's it all about Alfie? A Trialist per the glossary, part paid, lower/age division?
- Just means youth. Surprisingly difficult to do, but done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:15, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- met at Euston station in London, played in a youth match - so literally got off train then played the match then headed to Ipswich?
- That seems to be the case --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:54, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- He was also once again voted his club's - "also once" redundant
- It's needed. It's in addition to the PFA award --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:15, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The crowd erupted in anger, - presumably only the Stoke supporters?
- The match was at Stoke, so the vast majority of fans were home supporters. Robson's quote supports the hyperbole, common in football. Even if away fans had been banned, in real life, I'm sure a few people weren't paying attention, quite liked him, had sore throats etc. I think it's fine. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:15, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Beattie was selected as a member of the First Division Team of the Year - members are voted for so 'elected' rather than "selected"? (It'd be nice to add 'elected by his peers' or similar)
- Yup. Done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- helped his club reach the semi-final of the 1974–75 FA Cup and finish the league season - I'd add 'to' before "finish" to help differentiate/empasize 2 diff comps
- Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- began to suffer from severe back pain - remove from
- Why? It's normal BrEng --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:16, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- he blamed on an injury from which he suffered as a child - 2 x suffer/ed and "from which" not needed, change to 'he blamed on an injury he incurred as a child
- Done thanks --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- 7–0 win over West Bromwich Albion: the Albion goalkeeper John Osborne said of Beattie's long-range goal - colon should be semi?
- I was taught that a colon precedes something that follows and a semi colon something that doesn't. Seems right here. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- John Osborne said - which bit did he actually say? does knocked his hand off need quotes?
- I don't think there's a problem here --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- curtailed with a self-inflicted injury - maybe a semicolon rather than new sentence for Stoking?
- colon used (as above) and "with" replaced by grammatical "by" --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- and ultimately fell five points short - "ultimately" is redundant? swap "fell" to 'falling'?
- Fixed, thanks --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:43, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Beattie was fit to play by the start of the 1977–78 season,[37] and despite a mixed start - this is a mixed start for Ipswich not necessarily Beattie? insert 'Ipswich's' after "despite"?
- pruned --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:43, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- he was selected for England once again, this time against Luxembourg - I can't see any mention before this of selection in national team?
- Don't understand this --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:43, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I've read down to here a number of times now and still can't see above it where he'd been selected to play for England before, so can't understand the "once again". What am I missing? JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- This is the danger of having an "international career" section after the domestic career. He made his debut in 1975. This match was in 1978. In any case, I've reworded to remove that possible confusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:43, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- forced Beattie to withdraw from the starting lineup to the bench - scuse, does this mean he was not at all fit enough to play or withdrew to bench as an emergency type sub?
- It wouldn't mean the former, but it's OR to speculate on the (plausible) latter. Equally plausibly, he might have been deemed fine for 20 minutes or 40 minutes. We don't know. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:43, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- he had damaged cartilage in his knee - is "damaged" here used as a verb or adjective? If verb, remove from wlink ie wrap wlink to "cartilage in his knee". If not, ignore me!
- fixed --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:43, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Having had three weeks' recuperation, and a cortisone injection - 'After' better than "Having had"
- Why? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:24, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- suffered a reaction in his knee - reaction to the cortisone? or reaction as mechanical reactivation/recurrence?
- Unclear --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:24, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- and he was "wrapped up in cotton wool" - whose words in that quote, Beattie's or Robson's or Finch's?
- dunno, so elided and summarised better, too --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:24, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- to feature in the FA Cup fourth round - "feature" as in did special stuff, scored or does it just mean to play/appear?
- In BrEng it just means appear. I'll amend for clarity. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:24, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Beattie's knee was once again swollen - "once" is redundant
- I disagree. It expresses some exasperation! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:24, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- "so Ipswich won the trophy" - sounds a bit pedestrian for an FA Cup final? swap "so Ipswich won" for something grander? were victorious, triumphed, captured?
- WP:PEACOCK. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Following the cup final success - are we allowed to have a capital here ie Cup?
- I don't think so. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Beattie and teammates Robin Turner and David Geddis were all awarded - "all" is redundant
- Quite right. Zapped. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- A third, then a fourth operation followed - no mention of a second operation? (or is that what the "reaction" mentioned above was about?}
- Great spot. The Rambling Man, any ideas? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Reduced to "Two further operations". The Rambling Man (talk) 17:47, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- calling on UEFA to right the wrong: in 2008 and Beattie was finally awarded a medal - colon in right place or should "and" be moved/removed
- redundant "and" deleted --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Later career
- Heading "Later career" - is really 'Other clubs' or 'After Ipswich'?
- Can't be the former, as it loses the chronology. Can't be the latter, because his post-playing career was also after Ipswich --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:01, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- In the summer of 1982 - "summer" is problematic for 'some of us', mid or off season or prior to the beginning of the 82-82 season
- fixed --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:01, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- who offered Beattie a short-term contract - offered 'him'
- done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:01, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- After John Lyons' suicide and Hunter's subsequent resignation - is it intentional for these two events to sound related?
- Yes, Hunter's resignation was directly linked to the tragic earlier events. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- during that same 1982–83 season - "same"? Also pipe to first div section like all other season links?
- Tweaked, and piped. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Whitworth's page calls Barnet a "Conference National club"?
- That's still "non-League". The Rambling Man (talk) 16:27, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Injury and poor lifestyle choices once again - no mention previously of any "poor lifestyle choices" (that's a euphemism for drinking?)
- Yes, in a sense. I've rephrased and added a direct quote to assuage any BLP concerns. 09:50, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- to supplement his income - how does that work, paid for appearances not on contract?
- Yes. Players were and still are regularly paid (especially at lower league teams) on a "pay-as-you-play" basis. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- under manager and former Swedish international player - swap "and" to a comma or add comma after "player"
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Soon after, Nordahl suddenly resigned and under new management, the club let Beattie go - "under new management" is redundant maybe?
- Indeed, removed. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- scored more than 60 goals in his first season - crikey! is that fair dinkum? He was just so superior at that level or they play many many games per season?
- That's fair dinkum, he was far superior to those around him. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- at his hometown club Carlisle under Roddy Collins - needless to say Carlisle already linked (but way back so okay?)
- Way back, that was the thinking. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- International
- and then-England manager Alf Ramsey - is "then-" redundant?
- In context, probably, but it was to juxtapose it against "former" Ipswich manager. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- He made his debut in November 1972 against Wales under-23s at Wrexham - ref 77 (Courtney, Barrie (27 March 2004)) says "29/11/1972, Swansea, Vetch Field" - is that the 0-3 game with Malcolm Macdonald scoring all 3 goals? It's Beattie's first mention on that ref
- Indeed, fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:37, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Beattie's final game also saw - this 1975 game at Wrexham - wlink Wrexham? (or Racecourse Ground)
- Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:37, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Playing style
- We just gelled - should start with lowercase "we"?
- Not sure, start of the sentence in this context? I've de-capitalised it. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:44, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- gelled ... if I went - why ellipsis instead of 'and'?
- Yeah, no more or fewer characters, so "and" it is. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:44, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Incidents and controversies
- train pulled into Carlisle station - add 'en route' - not knowing train lines/geography "pulled into" can sound terminal but Carlisle just happened to be a stop en route? JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Post-football and family life
- injuries gave Beattie difficulties in later life: by the time - colon should be semi?
That's it for now. Thanks, JennyOz (talk) 13:04, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Ooh, yummy, thanks for that. You've put in a lot of work and the article will be better for it. My onwiki time is limited and only TRM has the book, so it may take a few days to work through it all, but we will. Thanks again. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:10, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Misc
- Honours section - repeat hall of fame here or these just actual playing honours?
- I've look around, there's no clear guide, so I've added an "individual" honours section. Ironically though, I don't think the ITFC HoF is significant compared to the First Division teams of the year, so I've included those, but not the ITFC HoF... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Bobby Robson - there are a few mentions where surname might suffice
- Trimmed a couple out. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- in 2008 and Beattie was finally awarded a medal - needs an extra ref because ref 55 News & Star of 2008 says "it is hoped the new medal will be minted in time for former Ipswich manager Sir Bobby Robson to present it to Beattie at Portman Road before the last game of the season" ... but Finch says in here that it was "Michel Platini, then UEFA President and a great player himself, presented Beat with his medal" when they went to 2008 UEFA Cup final.
- Fixed, new source and a bit more detail added. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Beattie featured in the film Escape to Victory. His skills - insert 1981 before "film"?
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- His skills were shown on the pitch for Michael Caine's character - insert POW before "character"?
- Good thinking. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe add/pipe wlink to Body double? (ref 86 Kevin Beattie: Tributes to 'complete footballer'". BBC uses the word 'double')
- Not sure how to merge that into the existing text, any ideas? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestions would be: His skills were shown on the pitch as the body double for Michael Caine's prisoner-of-war character or..., He was cast as the body double for his footballing skills for Michael... but very happy if no adjustment JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Okeydokes, gone for the former. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:45, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref 72 Finch, p. 151–152 - pp
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Finch book - why did he call it "The Greatest Footballer England Never Had", if Kevin was capped 9 times?
- You'd have to ask Finch, but the point is that he probably should have made 100 appearances and never featured in any really significant England matches, e.g. World Cup or Euro finals. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, okay, thanks, how sad. JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref 55 Colman says "Rob Finch, ghostwriter of Beattie’s autobiography," and cover of that book says "as told to Rob Finch" so is it another autobiography or a biography?
- It's debatable. It's more like an autobiography dictated to (and subsequently checked, grammar-fied etc by) a more capable writer. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- He also co-wrote his autobiography: The Beat - no mention in ref of co-writer. This mentions Manning but calls it a 'biography' not auto.
- Just going by what the source says about The Beat. I can't get a copy for reasonable money so I can't elucidate. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's it now. Thank you both for your patience! JennyOz (talk) 10:40, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- JennyOz. I'll try to get to some your extremely helpful comments in the next couple of days, assuming I'm not summarily blocked for some kind of implied sanction infringement. My edits are being watched by numerous editors who are looking for anything to get me blocked, ably assisted by a recent Arbcom "clarification". Thanks again for your review! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:18, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- No worries TRM, I understand you've been pre-occupied. I've been watching Dweller dealing with some of my suggestions. As I said at top, I'm really happy for you to ignore suggestions not useful! I remain totally confused by the "... England Never Had" bit and look forward to understanding why Finch said that. Regards both, JennyOz (talk) 09:34, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
JennyOz apologies for the delay, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to take a look over what we've done so far and see what concerns may remain? Many thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Dweller and TRM, sorry for delay in responding to ping (keyboard problems). I've added replies to comments above and here are a few new minor ones...
- curtailed bya self-inflicted - add space after by
- Maggie - "she featured in the Radio Times in a "Footballers' Wives" feature - swap "she featured in" to 'she appeared in' or similar to avoid repetition featured/feature?
- Player of the Year award.[26] and was - remove full stop after "award"
- Beattie found himself unemployed at various points - "found himself" is a bit iffy/unencyclopedic. Is 'was unemployed' enough?
- He also missed part of pre-season for Colchester by "straining too much" while defecating, resulting in a pulled stomach muscle.[16] - is this really worth the mention? Was it widely reported? I'm not being prudish, it just seems a relative nothing esp during pre-season and at a club he only made 6 appearances for.
- I doubt it'd get much coverage - Colchester have rarely made much news. It's whimsical and adds a little, ahem, colour. Could come out, but I think that'd be a shame. It's been sourced imeccably, a team mate who was there. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:15, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks both for dealing with my nitpicks, regards JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- JennyOz thanks, your latest comments all dealt with bar the last one which I'm going to leave to Dweller to answer. I have to say my mother also questioned the appropriateness of the lurid tale, it might be that now we have so much other material, and enough to substantiate that Beattie led a bizarre and injurious career, we can drop this tidbit. I'll sift through the rest of the comments shortly and see what else I can do to address the outstanding issues. Thanks again for your diligence. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:15, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- JennyOz I think I've located and dealt with the other comments you left, if you'd be kind enough to do one more double-check, that'd be great. Many thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:50, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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