The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 June 2020 [1].


Lewis (baseball)[edit]

Nominator(s): Therapyisgood (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lewis played in one professional baseball game in 1890, and his first name is completely unknown. He's interesting for sure, and showed how the 1890 Buffalo Bisons were doing at the time. Set several records of futility, and was described as a "failure" and "unfortunate" in press at the time. History hasn't been kinder to him. Therapyisgood (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ReviewSupport by Thatoneweirdwikier[edit]

This is one of the most interesting articles in a while. Criteria 3 and 4 look fine, so I'll take an in-depth look at criteria 1 and 2. User:Thatoneweirdwikier | Oh, Toodles! 17:34, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Prose[edit]
References[edit]

I'll do a complete reference sweep. User:Thatoneweirdwikier | Oh, Toodles! 17:49, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Concluding note[edit]

@Therapyisgood: That's all I could find during a first readthrough as someone not immersed in baseball. Once all the comments have been addressed, ping me and I'll change my vote. User:Thatoneweirdwikier | Oh, Toodles! 18:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Now that the comments have been addressed, I will now change my vote. Well done! User:Thatoneweirdwikier | Oh, Toodles! 04:42, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sarastro[edit]

The writer(s) of this article deserve great credit for what has been done with this. I know from the cricket world that there are many players like this that have one line biographies simply because nothing – not even their name – is known. But this article does an exceptional job of providing background. In fact, I wonder do we overdo the background? At times, parts of this read more like a history of the Players League, or a report of one baseball match. There might be an argument (which I would disagree with) that much of the background could be cut. But that would leave us with another dry one line article about a long-forgotten player. As it is, I think this sets the scene extremely well for the sorry tale of poor Lewis. In terms of fashioning something worthwhile (and FA-standard) out of some of the stubby sports articles out there, this really does show a way of doing it.

I fully expect to support this article, just a few quibbles. For the record, I performed a spot checked the sources, and other than one very minor issue (see below), there were no problems. I think the prose needs a little work though, as it is choppy in places and occasionally descends into a bit of "sports-speak". That should be easily fixed with a copy-edit (which I might be able to do myself if the nominator has no objections).

A few other points:

Prose issues: I'm nowhere near opposing over this, but before I support, I think the prose needs a little work. In articles like this, there is always some need for "sports-speak", and getting the balance right can be tricky. My view is that this slips too much into baseball-speak, which might alienate the casual reader a little. Here are a few examples from the lead, which I think would concern non-specialists (and certainly non-specialists in the UK), or where I think we're falling short on Criterion 1a:

  • Looking back this gives context that he only played in one career game. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:14, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not the context that I have an issue with. I don't think it's good writing for FA level. Sarastro (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very well, but we still have the frankly appalling "The PL formed following a dispute after". Sarastro (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kept the opening day statement which was covered by multiple sources (including Spink). But reworded a bit. Therapyisgood (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Starting two sentences in a row with "in" and then "in" is a bit awkward. Therapyisgood (talk) 15:26, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was just a suggestion, and your response does not address the fact that the lead of a prospective FA contains the incredibly awkward "to Lou Bierbauer, a feat, a batter hitting two home runs in an inning" which is a little tricky to parse, when this could easily be resolved, even by switching some commas to dashes. Sarastro (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It doesn't give much context at all. I'm assuming it is still the case now? In June? And it will be in July? Removing it would avoid needing to keep updating this, or leaving the reader wondering why it was the case in May but is no longer the case in June. Sarastro (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very well, but we now have a sentence in the lead of a prospective FA which contains "fold" twice. Sarastro (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are only examples, and there are one or two more minor issue in the lead. The rest of the article seems better, although there are doubtless one or two places where it could be smoothed a little. I would say there is still a little work needed to meet criterion 1a. Sarastro (talk) 12:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sarastro1 For the record I think most of your comments are perfunctory. I'm not in favor of cutting context from the lead, and cutting it any further would make it read choppily. Not sure how the lead isn't at FA level either, looks good to me. Therapyisgood (talk) 15:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on 1a: As I said at the time, these are examples only, and you are overlooking the fact that criterion 1a says "its prose is engaging and of a professional standard". You may quibble on some points, but I don't think it could reasonably be argued that prose such as "The PL formed following a dispute after" or "to Lou Bierbauer, a feat, a batter hitting two home runs in an inning" or having "fold" twice in a sentence constitutes professional prose (and you acknowledge that non-awkward prose is essential when you point out (correctly) that having two sentences beginning "in" is not a good look). I'm not insisting on "I would have done it this way" as my suggestions were just that, and there are other ways to address the problems. But I do think as written, the article falls considerably short on 1a. And if that criterion is to mean anything at FA, I don't think dismissing a prose review as "most of your comments are perfunctory" and defending the issues as giving context is the best approach. I'm switching to oppose, as I don't wish to get into a long back-and-forth, but I'm happy to revisit if someone addresses the issues raised. This may well be promoted anyway, in which case I reiterate the point that, despite the prose issues, I still consider the research that has gone into this, and the way the background has been framed to be exemplary for a sports FA of this kind. Sarastro (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Happy to support after the copy-edit. Sarastro (talk) 16:14, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Kaiser matias[edit]

I'll admit the idea of a featured article where almost no information about the person is available intrigued me. And am quite impressed by the effort here to make this happen. I have a few comments here:

I still think it would be best moved elsewhere, but I do appreciate your logic and will not hold it against the article.
Sorry, just a little confused then, are you able to add anything or not?
Annualized salaries for salaried workers in America for the late 1800s appears to be hard to come by. I also remember a source saying that one of the reasons the salary cap was passed was because the leagues didn't want the salary of ball players being higher than the average American, but I can't find it. I inflated it. I agree that something should have been added. Therapyisgood (talk) 00:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying, I just was confused by the wording. All good.
Fair enough; I've been asked to do the above before, but the MOS may have changed since then, so all good.
Understanbable.

Other than that I think it does a solid job of explaining why someone was able to pitch for 3 innings and be a "failure". Kaiser matias (talk) 16:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just one question above left, but otherwise good for me. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC) That's been addressed, so supporting it now. Well done. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • Interesting choice of topic.
  • "Bisons player–manager Jack Rowe started him for the game; " I might say "on the mound" rather than "for the game". I would end the sentence there, splitting off the remainder into a new sentence. I would make a similar substitution in the body of the article.
  • Isn't professional baseball coventionally traced to 1869 and the Cincinnati Red Stockings?
  • They appear to have been the first team to pay ten players on a roster but earlier than that other clubs had paid a salary. Added a note. Therapyisgood (talk) 02:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Baseball-Reference does not list Lewis as having played any other major or minor-league game over his career." I would change "game" to "games" and cut the last three words.
  • You should mention that Lewis got a strikeout. Also, I notice that Buffalo, not the home team, batted last. It should be explained that in the 19th century the home team did not necessarily bat last.
  • Well that is interesting because here does imply that Brooklyn batted in the top of the inning despite that Baseball Reference lists Lou Bierbauer as hitting his two home runs in the bottom of the third inning. Added the strikeout, though here credits him with two strikeouts. Added a note. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:45, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Something could be said in one of the early sections about how PL players were paid. At least in theory.
  • "though his statistics do not qualify for rate comparison amongst players on Baseball-Reference because he did not meet the minimum threshold of one inning pitched per team game for the season that the site requires for ERA and WHIP comparisons across players.[28][29][30]" This is a mess, but I don't have any better ideas. It isn't just B-R that requires one inning per game played, it is what is required generally for the ERA championship.
  • I'm okay with it. Was thinking of cutting "for the season" but that adds some context. If anyone else can reword with the same meaning feel free. Therapyisgood (talk) 02:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking over the other comments, Lewis does not hold the record for highest season ERA (among non-qualifiers). Bob Apodaca had an ERA of infinity for the Mets in 1973 and there are doubtless more (while Apodaca was only one season, and he did not maintain it for a career, I would be somewhat surprised if there were no examples in the annals of baseball of a pitcher who allowed 1 or more earned runs without retiring anyone in his only major league appearance).--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The internet informs me that Harry Heitmann is an example.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:03, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Looks good. One thing on references, you probably don't need the book that is the further reading given you cite that book as a source in footnote 9.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Friendly pings to Thatoneweirdwikier and Sarastro1. I would be interested in hearing more about the weather reports and the mascots. Therapyisgood (talk) 00:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "hearing more about" them? User:Thatoneweirdwikier | Oh, Toodles! 04:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – This is one of the more interesting sports articles to appear at FAC in some time. It's as richly detailed as could be given the nature of the subject, and I see myself supporting once these small matters are dealt with:

  • Short answer is yes. Left a note at the talkpage of Template:Inflation since the source has updated from 2019. Will be thankful if things get updated. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cut, will be making Black mascots in early American baseball soon. Article will have its day. -- Therapyisgood (talk) 01:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 (Talk) 21:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – All of my concerns have been addressed. Giants2008 (Talk) 18:21, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Has there been a source reliablity check? And an image review? Also @Sarastro1: to see if his concerns have been addressed? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth: working on it. will hustle Therapyisgood (talk) 15:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

The sole image, a baseball box score, is certainly out of copyright if it ever was. A case could be made that it was never copyrightable as it simply represents statistics from a baseball game in a prescribed format, and contains no originality by the publisher, but we needn't go there. Image review passes.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie[edit]

I noticed a prose oppose so thought I would take a look through. Just looking at the lead I agree with Sarastro1 that the prose does not flow smoothly; I started making notes but it's going to be quicker and easier if I just copyedit. I'll work on the lead, and if you've no objection to the changes I make I'll look at the rest of the article.

OK, back now having edited the lead. The changes I made are quite substantial and I can explain why I made them if you like. I have to say that I would oppose with the lead the way it was, though the particular way I edited the lead is not the only way to fix the problems. Also pinging Sarastro1 to see if they think the changes I've made are improvements. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:37, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From my viewpoint, this looks much better. I'll let Mike finish his review, but I'd certainly strike the oppose and probably support based on the changes made so far. Sarastro (talk) 09:40, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll do a copyedit pass on the rest of the article -- some time today, I hope. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notes from copyediting:

I've completed my copyedit; let me know what you think -- and also pinging Sarastro1 again for him to read through.

One other point -- I think the article could legitimately be turned into an article on the game without much effort, with the current title redirecting to the game. The game is itself notable because of the records, as is Lewis; I think it's fine where it is but it wouldn't be OK to have a separate article on the game -- everything in this could fit in a game article with no trouble.

I'm holding back support on prose till the first point above is fixed (second vs. third); the others would not prevent me from supporting. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's looking better now, and I've struck my oppose. I also made one tweak myself. But I'd like a response from the nominator, and a final read-through before I switch to support. Sarastro (talk) 09:39, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The last concern I had is fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review: pass[edit]

Just starting through this now. Harrias talk 15:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cut. I could add other stats sites but none are as extensive as BR. Therapyisgood (talk) 20:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for the moment. Harrias talk 17:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cannot thank you enough. Therapyisgood (talk) 20:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have removed the subscription required templates, the OA templates, added publisher to ref 1., cut the publisher from ref 13. I am not sure who published M. Law Review so I left out a publisher, but I'm looking for one now. Therapyisgood (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I added the publisher on ref 2 as Marquette University Law School. Therapyisgood (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That all looks good, thanks. Harrias talk 07:13, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.