The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 29 February 2024 [1].

Oyster dress[edit]

Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Once upon a time, Alexander McQueen was known for tight tailoring and sharp cuts. He made dresses, but he didn't make dresses. Then he went to work for Givenchy, where he learned the real art of dressmaking. Channelling his obsession with outdoing British designer John Galliano, he came up with the oyster dress, a riff on Galliano's 1987 shellfish dress that blew the original out of the water. The oyster dress, a full-length gown in layers of distressed beige chiffon that appeared in Irere (S/S 2003), is one of McQueen's most famous designs. Only two copies of the original are known to exist, owned by The Met in New York and Kim Kardashian, respectively. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

SC[edit]

Aside from my usual grumble about the false titles, the following may be of use:

Lead
Background
Development

That's my lot – I hope they help. - SchroCat (talk) 15:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil[edit]

Support. Have made trivial edits. The article is short but comprehensive, clear and pleasingly succinct/ free of puff. The usual high quality sources and prose from this nominator. Wouldn't be my favourite of McQueen's dresses, but fine. Ceoil (talk) 01:09, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edge3[edit]

Just a few comments:

  • Normally this is correct, but in the fashion world "Spring/Summer" and "Fall/Winter" are used as proper nouns denoting seasons of fashion as opposed to natural seasons, the other two being Resort and Pre-Fall (see [2], [3], [4], [5] for a couple of examples). (Comment copied from Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Armadillo shoe/archive1). I've used this format in all my fashion-related articles and it hasn't been an issue.
  • Do we have an article on the seasons in the fashion industry? I think an explanatory footnote would be helpful. For instance, the first link you provided points out that the "spring/summer" season doesn't begin during the spring or summer. My concern is that a casual reader might be confused as to when these seasons occur. Edge3 (talk) 00:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • We don't have an article, no. I'm not sure a footnote is necessary, it hasn't been a point of confusion so far. All the reader needs to know is that this is for X season, not the intricate details of what the seasons entail. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • We shouldn't assume that readers aren't confused simply because they haven't spoken up. MOS:SEASON is written to avoid ambiguity, especially considering that the fashion weeks are all held in the northern hemisphere, particularly in places where there are four seasons (Paris, New York, Milan, and London). Readers who live in other regions would not necessarily agree on when "spring/summer" and "autumn/winter" take place. While I appreciate that you're trying to be consistent with your previous fashion-related FAs, I don't see how this practice is consistent with MOS:SEASON, and the Armadillo shoe FAC didn't really address this issue in depth. And for what it's worth, fashion show uses lowercase "spring/summer" and "fall/winter" in the lead section. Edge3 (talk) 01:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not talking about readers, I'm talking about the FAC reviewers for the other dozen fashion-related FAs I've done, none of whom seemed confused by the notion or brought it up as a concern. The armadillo FAC didn't address it in further depth because the reviewer accepted my rationale and didn't see it as an issue to pursue.
  • MOS:SEASON specifically says "Referring to a season by name is appropriate when it is part of a formal or conventional name or designation" and gives the Winter Olympics, a capitalized proper noun, as an example. The usage of "Autumn/Winter XXXX" is appropriate under this guidance. It is a proper noun designation that does not refer to literal autumn and winter, it refers to fashion's Autumn/Winter season. It cues the reader to know that the clothing was intended to be appropriate for autumn and winter, regardless of whether the reader experiences that season in December or in July. That's as much context as is required for understanding.
  • Finally, fashion show may use lowercase, but it isn't an FA or GA and hasn't been written to any quality standard, so I would hardly take a cue from it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:05, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's possible that other FAC reviewers in your previous articles didn't even consider MOS:SEASON, and one brief thread in the Armadillo shoe FAC really doesn't resolve the issue one way or the other. Also, the sources don't agree on whether to capitalize. For instance, Harper's Bazaar, which you cite numerous times, uses lowercase "spring/summer". Edge3 (talk) 03:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. It does. Some publications choose to do this, which is annoying. On the other hand, publications I would consider authoritative, such as the websites for two of the Big Four fashion weeks (London and Paris) use capitals. When not stylizing for headlines, the Council of Fashion Designers of America uses proper nouns, as does Fashion Week Online, the main news site for all fashion weeks: [6], [7].
  • In order to clearly distinguish the lowercase natural seasons from the proper noun designation of a given fashion season, I have chosen to consistently capitalize, specifically to avoid confusion between the two concepts, and consistent with industry organizations. The use of uppercased seasons for these articles is perfectly consistent with MOS:SEASONS, which as I've already pointed out makes a clear exception for conventional names and designations. I am not going to lowercase it (introducing confusion with natural seasons) or remove it (literally removing information which is useful to the reader). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that sources disagree on whether to capitalize the season names tells me that the sources are treating them as natural seasons rather than proper nouns. If the seasons were proper nouns, as you suggest, then all sources would use capitalization because proper nouns are typically capitalized. MOS:PROPER.
  • MOS:SEASONS provides the following examples: annual mid-winter festival; the autumn harvest; 2018 Winter Olympics; Times Fall Books Supplement; details appeared in Quarterly Review, Summer 2015; the court's winter term. "Winter Olympics" is capitalized because the word "Olympics" itself is a proper noun (i.e. the name of an event). [8]. Times and Quarterly Review are more problematic because a Google search for "Times Fall Books Supplement" yielded no exact matches (Are we talking about the New York Times, or something else?), and Quarterly Review ceased publication in 1967 and had issues identified by months rather than by seasons. [9].
  • Even if we accept Times and Quarterly Review to be valid examples in MOS:SEASONS, they are capitalized because periodical names are capitalized, and the seasons are part of the periodical title. In this case, "spring/summer" and "autumn/winter" are used to describe fashion seasons, and seasons generally aren't capitalized.
  • Just in case, I'm going to ping @FAC coordinators: to see if we can get extra opinions on the MOS. Edge3 (talk) 02:22, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Your arguments are contradictory. You first argued to remove the season entirely based on a misreading of MOS:SEASONS, including a complaint that it could be confusing to mention seasons because natural seasons are not consistent across the globe. That is correct, natural seasons are not consistent, but a season in fashion is not the same thing as a natural season of the earth.
    Now you appear to have given up stumping for removal, but are arguing for lowercasing the words. This is based on another misreading, this time of of MOS:PROPER, where you argue that if they were truly proper nouns, "all sources would use capitalization". MOS:PROPER does not say anything close to this; the first sentence of that section actually says they are "typically capitalized". Typically, as in usually but not always; the fact that a few sources use a different house style does not invalidate the fact that industry sources use capitalization.
    Regardless, using lowercase would introduce exactly the kind of confusion you were cautioning against originally. In order to prevent confusion between natural seasons and seasons in fashion, it is reasonable for us to make a common sense decision and follow along with capitalizing, in order to clearly distinguish "Spring/Summer XXXX" as referring to a specific season of fashion, not to the natural seasons of the earth. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not being contradictory. Rather, my views are evolving as I'm trying to accommodate your concerns while adhering to our own MOS, which trumps any other style guide. Frankly, I'd prefer to get additional opinions on this thread as I think we're at an impasse.
  • Council of Fashion Designers of America (CFDA), which you cited previously, liberally capitalizes any phrase that could be construed as a proper noun: e.g. "Official New York Fashion Week (NYFW) Schedule" would be written as "official New York Fashion Week (NYFW) schedule" under our MOS. CFDA also capitalizes terms like "Fashion Fund", "Travel Fund", and "Fashion Calendar", all of which would be lowercase under our MOS. Similarly, Fashion Week Online is capitalizing terms like "Streetwear", "Avant Garde", "Collection", all of which may be suitable under its own style guide but not for ours.
  • MOS:PROPER states the limited circumstances under which proper nouns are not capitalized. (See MOS:PEOPLANG, MOS:RACECAPS, and the other subsections for discussion of when proper nouns would not be capitalized.) MOS:PROPER is part of the broader guideline MOS:CAPS, whose stated goal is to "avoid[] unnecessary capitalization". MOS:CAPS does not have a specific section directly relating to fashion, but MOS:ACTCAPS (for "activities") states: ....[A]ctivities that are not trademarked or copyrighted are not capitalized (except where one contains a proper name or acronym, or begins a sentence). So "Winter Olympics" would be capitalized, either because it is a trademark or because it's capitalized by convention under MOS:SPORTCAPS. On the other hand, seasons in the fashion context are neither proper nouns nor trademarks, so capitalization is not permitted under our MOS. Edge3 (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed
  • Oop, casualty of being a split, fixed
  • Moved
  • Looks like something wonky happened in the split from Irere and I never noticed. I've fixed it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, nice work! Edge3 (talk) 18:02, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Responses above, thanks for the comments Edge3. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:39, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for missing that. I would not allow it, but require it. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused; could you please clarify? It's not allowed but required? In any event, MOS:SEASONS disfavors capitalization, and so does MOS:ACTCAPS. So I'm hoping that you could elaborate on your reasoning. Edge3 (talk) 16:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with those above saying that the season names are OK and should be capitalized. Capitalization is needed because "Spring/Summer" is not the name of a season (or two seasons); it's a standard term within the industry that takes its name from those seasons. Reliable sources capitalize them and so should we. An analogous case is "Spring 1990" as the date of a quarterly magazine; if the magazine gives itself that date, as opposed to "May 1990", we don't override it and we capitalize because that's what sources on magazines do. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What Mike said. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even for something as simple as a quarterly publication, the sources are not consistent. Art Therapy uses lowercase "spring issue of", while Art Tour International uses the capitalized version. A quick Google search reveals several more examples of both the lowercase and capitalized versions. One could argue that our MOS requires capitalization per MOS:TITLECAPS, since magazines are a literary work. But we have no such guideline on capitalization for fashion events specifically, and the reliable sources on fashion don't even agree on whether to capitalize. (As stated previously, Harper's Bazaar uses lowercase.)
MOS:SEASON provides the court's winter term as an example, which is probably the closest analogy. It is a court "term" whose name comes from "winter", much like how fashion seasons derive their names from seasons. But we don't capitalize terms, even when the US Supreme Court does. Edge3 (talk) 02:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Something like eight different people have now told you your interpretation is incorrect, including one of the FAC coords you pinged. How can you not accept that? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PMC, you don't have to convince a reviewer; it's the coords who'll decide if this is an actionable comment. Edge3, MOS:SEASON actually uses the example of a magazine title with an uppercase season, so I don't think you can use the MOS to argue it should not be capped. If you think that's incorrect you'd need to start a discussion on that talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 05:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mike is correct. (Of course.) In the case of an issue at FAC proving irresolvable, the reviewer flags up which criteria they believe is not met and, briefly, in what way. The reviewer may or may not feel strongly enough about it to also formally oppose. The nominator briefly summarises why they disagree. Both of these commonly consist of "See discussion above". The @FAC coordinators: will then decide the merits of the views when closing the nomination, along with whether a consensus to promote has been achieved. They would usually briefly give their reasoning. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, we have been at an impasse for quite some time. Such is the nature of consensus-driven editing on WP; we're not going to agree all the time.
I am opposed, and I summarize my review feedback as follows:
  • I agree with the others on this thread that using season names is appropriate under MOS:SEASON, so the "spring/summer" and "autumn/winter" designations may remain. I withdraw my objection on that ground.
  • I am not persuaded that capitalization of season names is appropriate, especially in light of MOS:CAPS, which discourages "unnecessary capitalization". MOS:CAPS refers to phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources. Additionally, MOS:ACTCAPS states, ....activities that are not trademarked or copyrighted are not capitalized (except where one contains a proper name or acronym...). Although MOS:CAPS requires capitalization for most proper nouns (MOS:PROPER), the substantial majority of reliable sources do not consistently treat fashion seasons as a proper noun.
I would support FA status on the other criteria, as I find this article to be well written and thoroughly researched. Since I'm in the minority position on the MOS, and the other participants on this thread have given their MOS-based arguments in favor of capitalization, the FAC should be able to proceed without further debate. Edge3 (talk) 17:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review[edit]

Is it necessary to use two non-free images to show what the dress looks like? The rationales don't indicate that. Nor do they indicate whether it could be replaced with a freely-created image of the dress. I think the ALT text could be more descriptive of what the dress looks like. Source-wise, I don't think The Guardian needs an ISSN, especially since it's not consistently applied. It seems like the sources are partly fairly prominent magazines and books from prominent publishers. Have these sources been inspected? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:02, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, @Jo-Jo Eumerus. I believe the two NFCC images are necessary. One shows the actual dress, which is obviously necessary, and IMO it's relevant to show the shellfish dress so people can see just how thoroughly McQueen transformed Galliano's concept. What part of the rationale do you believe is lacking? I clearly explain that the dresses are unique creations, not on public display or commercially available, so it is not possible to create a free image. The same rationale has been accepted for images at every other McQueen article so far.
Alt text has been enhanced and ISSN removed.
At this stage in my McQueen project, I can confidently say I have thoroughly combed every major source that discusses Alexander McQueen, and a significant majority of the minor sources as well. I would be frankly astonished if there were a source in English that discussed the oyster dress in detail that isn't represented in this article. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The NFCC#1 rationale needs to say (in addition to what it already says) that the costume is probably copyrighted and thus can't be recreated as a free image. It is not clear why showing one dress style requires two non-free images; wouldn't one suffice? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The dress itself isn't copyrighted. Clothing designs are not copyrightable in the US or in the UK ([10], [11]). It can't be recreated as a free image because it's a unique item not on public display anywhere. This rationale has not been problematic in any other McQueen FAC, nearly all of which have used NFCC images of unavailable items.
One image will not suffice. The original oyster dress doesn't look a damn thing like Galliano's shellfish dress. The entire point is to demonstrate visually just how distinct the designs are. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if the clothing isn't copyrightable then that opens the possibility that someone might recreate it and make a free photo. Which would make the non-free photo fail [[WP::NFCC#1]]. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would understand your argument if this article were about a style of dress, let's say a little black dress - obviously for that article any little black dress will do. But it's about one specific dress, Alexander McQueen's oyster dress. If I were to somehow contrive to produce a recreation of the dress, it would still not be Alexander McQueen's oyster dress. It would be my knockoff of Alexander McQueen's oyster dress. An image of my version would not serve as a visual identifier of Alexander McQueen's oyster dress, it would serve as a visual identifier of my crappy knockoff. Just because fashion can't be copyrighted under a particular legal regime does not mean that this particular dress is not a unique object of art. I cover the uniqueness in the NFCC rationale, an NFCC rationale which has been acceptable at just shy of a dozen fashion FACs at this point. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: Is there anything else you guys are looking for here? The image review has not been responded to in 10 days now and Jo-Jo has been editing, so I have to assume they have no further objections. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping for some third opinion, but if the article is more about that particular presentation than about a style your argument works. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jo-Jo, just checking - is that a pass for both? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pass for source, conditional (the article being mainly about a particular presentation rather than the style) pass for images. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments[edit]

Thanks for your comments Gog, adjustments made. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz[edit]

Hello PMC, thanks for another fine McQueen article. I have a few questions and suggestions...

top

lede

Development and runway show

Legacy

Extant copies

References

Bibliography

Image

Categories

A delight to read, thanks, JennyOz (talk) 04:38, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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