- I'd consider making a link to note B after the ninth novel and tenth book in Ian Fleming's James Bond series in the lead: yes, MOS:LEADCITE, but it's not technically a citation, and I think most readers will be confused as to how this sentence can be true.
- a clear departure from previous Bond novels in that the story is told in the first person by a young Canadian woman, Viv Michel: I'd rephrase this to be clear that the departure is being told in the first person at all (or by someone who isn't Bond?), not being told in the first person by a young Canadian woman, Viv Michel. Cutting the sentence after first person and saying something like "Its narrator is..." would help.
- Fleming wrote a prologue to the novel giving Viv credit as a co-author: is it worth being absolutely explicit, either here or earlier, that Viv is fictional? At least part of me is doubting myself.
- Fleming would be absolutely delighted, I'm sure! - SchroCat (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The story contains themes of Saint George against the dragon, power and the moral ambiguity: the first of these is a motif rather than a theme. Suggest "uses a recurring motif of Saint George against the dragon, and contains themes of..."
- As the narrator who told : it's fiction, so present tense: who tells ... expresses.
- Viv is the best-realised and most rounded: no hyphen here (predicative, not attributive).
- female characterisation: female character, surely? I do wonder whether the (fitting) double entendre of most rounded female character was intentional...
- Ha! No it wasn't - and I suppose it's too late to claim it is now. - SchroCat (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- In a later letter to his editor: we don't actually have any sense of when this was, either in the article or the lead, though F's use of has sounds to me like it was fairly soon after he read those reviews.
- Following the reactions by critics and fans: I'd go with reactions of, and perhaps negative reactions of: we haven't actually said that the fans disliked it yet.
- Fleming attempted to suppress elements of the novel where he could: cut "when he could": we'd hardly expect him to attempt to do something he couldn't attempt to do.
- he blocked a paperback edition in the United Kingdom and when he sold the film rights to Harry Saltzman and Albert R. Broccoli they were permitted to use only the title but none of the plot of the book: a run-on sentence. Could cut after United Kingdom and drop the and -- otherwise, though I know it'll be anathema, comma off: and, when he ... Broccoli, they were...
- In the tenth film in the Eon Productions series, released in 1977: elegant variation, but it isn't quite clear that this is indeed The Spy Who Loved Me. Suggest something like "in the film that bears the book's name, the tenth in the Eon production series..."
- Went a slightly different way, but should hopefully have the same outcome. - SchroCat (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- only the character of one of the villains, Jaws, is loosely based on a character in the book: are other things closely based on characters from the book?
- in daily comic strip format in 1967–1968: I'd do between 1967 and 1968 to avoid the awkward repetition.
- and a British paperback edition was published after Fleming's death: of the novel, or the comic strip?
- Both, actually, but I meant the novel, so now clarified. - SchroCat (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Would it be a major loss to change the verbose as well as a clear departure from previous Bond novels in that the story is told in the first person. into simply as well as the only Bond novel [story?] told in the first person.?
- arriving as a deus ex machina: the Latinist in me isn't totally happy with the literal meaning of this -- Bond, of course, isn't actually a god and doesn't actually come out of the scenery. Could change the link text to something "arriving at precisely the right moment"? Separately: in the body text, we've presented this as Bold's individual, subjective opnion: we've promoted it to a matter of fact in the lead.
- Viv is the best realised and most rounded female character in the Bond canon: I'd be happier if this subjective statement were phrased more objectively: "Viv has often been called..." or something.
- Following the negative reactions of critics and readers: I still think we need to say, somewhere in the previous paragraph, that readers didn't like it either: perhaps something about how badly it sold? It's not uncommon for a book to be critically panned but commercially beloved.
- I've cut the readers out of the equation entirely: there isn't enough in the sources to say that (even through undoubtedly correct), but I'll look again to see if I can see something about sales being less than previous works. - SchroCat (talk) 09:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- the first person story: hyphenate first-person when used attributively, as here.
- Link James Bond in the blockquote as first mention in body?
- With the manuscript was a note signed 'Vivienne Michel': I'd use double-quotes here, as the blockquote doesn't actually have quotation marks around it. Likewise in the following quotation.
- Would link Official Secrets Act in the same quote (you may need to find the right one)
- Vivienne "Viv" Michel, a young Canadian woman, narrates her own story, detailing her past love affairs, the first being with Derek Mallaby, who took her virginity in a field after being thrown out of a cinema in Windsor for indecent exposure: a long sentence (would break at love affairs). Would link indecent exposure. I can see an argument for rephrasing "took her virginity" to something that presents this as more of a team effort and doesn't have the connotations of defilement, but am not coming up with much at the moment.
- I've taken out the virginity aspect (so to speak) and just gone with the more bland "had sex in a field". Does that work? - SchroCat (talk) 09:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I was hesitating in case it mattered that this was the first time, whether within the world of the story or for the audience, but no objection to removing that if it's not particularly important. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:51, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- when Mallaby sent her a letter from Oxford University: was he a student there? The phrasing seems almost to be trying to imply that he wasn't.
- to work at "The Dreamy Pines Motor Court",: ominous-looking scare quotes: would drop and go with "a motel called the Dreamy Pines..." or similar.
- Link mobsters to something appropriate? Likely to be tricky to non-native speakers.
- "secret service" going to "MI6" is a bit of a surprise (the link text suggests that it's going to be talking about secret services in general): could we rephrase somehow? One option would be to push the link to cover "British" as well, but that has the tradeoff of moving "British" to strictly modify "secret service" rather than "agent".
- Bond tells Viv that he is in America in the wake of Operation Thunderball and was detailed to protect a Russian nuclear expert who defected to the West and who now lives in Toronto.: the tenses are a bit tricky here: grammatically, I think they're all correct, but the sentence could probably do with a look for clarity.
- I've trimmed the last part - I think that was mostly what was throwing if off. - SchroCat (talk) 09:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- All done with these edits. - SchroCat (talk) 09:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- eight books in the preceding eight years, seven novels and a collection of short stories: comma after years should be a colon, as those are the eight books.
- I think both are OK here, but swapped over. - SchroCat (talk) 10:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- He found writing The Spy Who Loved Me easier than any of his other books: better as "he later said he found..."? We can't ever know his mental state for sure, and people don't always remember or retell their own difficulties accurately.
- He said this at the time of writing (when he sent his manuscript to the publisher). - SchroCat (talk) 10:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- thoughts of killing off Bond: perhaps slightly colloquial?
- had second thoughts: would rephrase per MOS:IDIOM.
- This, writes Lycett, may have been a reflection of Fleming's state of mind at the time, particularly his ongoing marital difficulties, as he was having an affair with his neighbour on Jamaica, Blanche Blackwell and his wife, Ann was in a relationship with Hugh Gaitskell, the Leader of the British Labour Party.: would cut this run-on sentence after difficulties. Also needs a comma after Blackwell.
- Went with a colon instead. Does that work? - SchroCat (talk) 10:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- working on a film treatment which eventually Fleming published as Thunderball: the novel? I assume so because it's not linked, but slightly doubting myself over "film treatment".
- Would push the link on "novel series" to "the novel series" per WP:LEASTASTONISHMENT
- Ivar Bryce's Black Hollow Farm: who/where is this?
- Viv was seduced by Derek: is seduced
- Her time with Derek in the area around Cookham, Berkshire, is similar to Fleming's time at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.: probably not relevant, but this is challenging both my impressions of Cookham and of Sandhurst! Similar in what ways?
- Reworked: it's not the area that is similar (they're not!), but Fleming's activities. - SchroCat (talk) 10:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- and is the out-door type: hyphen reads strongly archaic to me. Why not just "[enjoys] outdoor activities" -- what exactly is the outdoor "type"?
- the character of Viv—by demonstrating a naïve view of life—reinforces: better as who demonstrates, I think (it's Viv, not her character = personality).
- Thanks again UC; this lot all covered - again, hopefully satisfactorily. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- the full panoply of a Bond novel, animated by his presence is absent: comma after presence, surely? Even if not in original, MOS:CONFORM could be argued.
- Black 2005 citation: capitalise from as it's after a colon (and therefore the start of a subtitle).
- 'hooks': double quotes per MOS:QUOTE (the MoS doesn't really approve of, or legislate for, scare quotes, but this is also in a sense a literal quote). Could be more formal and replace (with a link) with narrative hooks.
- Benson considers that the sweep: a nitpick, but we capitalised Sweep before, so should do so here (or decap both): it's the Sweep, so a proper noun.
- As with several other Bond stories: could we have some examples? Is it made quite as explicit elsewhere?
- The question of morality and good and evil : what's the difference between "morality" and "good and evil"?
- One is the thought, the other the deed. - SchroCat (talk) 10:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I've not come across that distinction before; I don't think many readers will have it in mind. Could do "good and evil actions", "people", or similar, or perhaps rephrase to draw a more explicit distinction between intentions and consequences? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:35, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I've gone for the path of cutting "morality" - it makes the section stronger and is probably slightly truer to the sources too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:48, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- He raised his fee from the 200 guineas (£210) he had charged for Thunderball, to 250 guineas (£262.50: either lose the comma or stick another after fee.
- no paperback version appeared until after Fleming's death in 1964: it's a bit odd that this is said twice, but we only actually find out the date on the second mention.
- Where's the first mention - I must be missing something here? - SchroCat (talk) 09:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- This is the first: it's later mentioned as In May 1967—after Fleming's death in May 1964—Pan Books published a paperback version of The Spy Who Loved Me in the UK. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:15, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, gotcha. Reworked it so there's only one mention of it now. How does that look? - SchroCat (talk) 10:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- the heightened sexual writing: I'm not sure this is quite idiomatic.
- the company that administers all Fleming's literary works: Fowler's calling out for us to omit all here.
- which sold 517,000 copies before the end of the year: was that good? It sounds like we're implicitly saying Fleming was wrong about the book being disliked.
- Difficult to say. I think people couldn't get hold of the limited supply of hardbacked versions, so bought big when it came to the paperback (all the publicity about the salacious aspects wouldn't have hurt sales either!) This is all OR, as the source doesn't examine the whys and wherefores for the sales levels. - SchroCat (talk) 10:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Any way to contextualise it versus previous/future Bond sales, that year's bestsellers, or similar? I've not really got a sense from the article that this was "buying big". UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @SchroCat: This is, as far as I can see it, the only comment that needs a response: any thoughts on it? UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, UC: I had missed your response entirely. Let me have a think and I'll get back to you. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I've added a quick line about it being one of the top paperback sellers of Fleming's work. How does that work? - SchroCat (talk) 19:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Very nicely, though I've made a small CE around. Moved to support: nice work all around. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The release of the bowdlerised series was for the 70th anniversary of Casino Royale, the first Bond novel: perhaps beside the point, but if they kept "the sweet tang of rape", what did they decide to cut?
- There are no sources that cover that bit, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 09:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear!: needs a MOS:CONFORM treatment: would suggest mass-decapping and sticking commas or dashes in between.
- thought Fleming was finished: MOS:IDIOM.
- Can we do anything to explain "cornography"?
- Not without going into OR. I think we'll have to let the context and a reader's intelligence do some of the work here. - SchroCat (talk) 09:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- considered the novel to be "a morbid version of that of Beauty and the Beast": this quote hasn't quite transposed correctly: the that of in the quote suggests that he was originally talking about the novel's plot vel. sim.
- the customary sexual consummation is associated with the kill.": I think MOS:LQ would put the full stop on the other side, but have never really understood that one. Certainly, this is the pattern followed elsewhere in the article.
- It's a complete sentence and the full stop is where it is in the quote, so the full stop goes inside the quote marks. - SchroCat (talk) 09:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Sounds good to me. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:16, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- the battleship-grey Bentley and Blades Club: did the author really draw the line at capitalising Battleship?
- Yes. Somewhat surprising, I know, but I guess that's part of the description, rather than The Thing. - SchroCat (talk) 09:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- is the discovery that the cruel, handsome, scarred face of James Bond does not turn up until more than halfway through Ian Fleming's latest book.: missing close quotes.
- The first paragraph of adaptations is a little repetitious and generally clunky: could I very unhelpfully suggest another look for general prose and panache?
- Reworked; how does that look?
- Title of Parker 2014: Was is a verb, so should be capitalised in title case.
- Thanks UC; all covered in these edits, hopefully satisfactorily. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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