- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose 22:03, 22 June 2012 [1].
William S. Sadler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Nominator(s): Mark Arsten, MathewTownsend & Livit⇑Eh?/What?
William S. Sadler was an author and psychiatrist who was one of the best known skeptics in the U.S. in the 1920s, until he came to believe that aliens were communicating with him through one of his patients. The result was a 2,000 page book that launched a new religious movement featuring otherworldly theology. Although Sadler never received a great deal of publicity, enough has been published about him in the past decade to piece together a decent article. This article has passed GA and been peer reviewed, and I think it now meets the FA criteria. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Crisco 1492 comments
- (Disclosure: I participated in the article's first PR)
"While attending medical school, Sadler worked as a chemistry tutor and became an elder in the Adventist church. In San Francisco, he served as the "superintendent of young people's work" for the church's California conference and the president of the San Francisco Medical Missionary and Benevolent Society." - I don't think the second location conjunction is necessary (in San Francisco)
- That's it for prose... I did a bit of work myself, feel free to revert any you disagree with. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments and earlier peer review, I tweaked the sentence you mention above. Your most recent copyedits look fine too. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Images are fine. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:17, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support on prose and images, looks good. Feels fairly complete, no obvious gaps in coverage. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:56, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Comments
Lead
- "phenomena" – is the plural form wanted here? It seems as though there is only one phenomenon being observed.
- Early life and education
- "Samuel, a music teacher, did not enroll his son in public schools" – this sentence seems to couple two unrelated points.
- "bellhop" – not a familiar term in these parts; perhaps a blue link?
- "after John Harvey Kellogg was excommunicated in 1907 after a conflict" – too many "afters"
- Career
- "he authored magazine articles" – couldn't he just write them? (and again at later mentions of "authored")
- "one of the best paid Chautauqua speakers" – I think best-paid needs a hyphen here as it's being used attributively
Urantia revelation
"he did not write, nor extensively edit" – I'd write "or" not "nor" here, but this may be a matter of UK-v-US usage.
All minor points, and I'll be adding my support for FA when they're addressed. – Tim riley (talk) 12:05, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- All right, I think I have taken care of your points, good observations. I didn't know that bellhop was an Americanism, interesting. Also, I can't seem to recall why I wrote "authored" so many times, odd. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:32, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent article. Well proportioned, fully referenced, very readable prose, admirably illustrated. Clearly FA class. Tim riley (talk) 17:49, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
- The opening sentence is a bit ambiguous who "he" refers to (either Sadler or the sleeping man). Did the sleeping man think that he was communicating with aliens? Or only Sadler?
- "These revelations were published in The Urantia Book, spawning the spiritual and philosophical Urantia movement." - did the revelations or the Book spawn the movement? If the book, you might want to change "spawning" to "which spawned", since that would clarify better.
- "He baptized William into the denomination in 1888; William became devoutly religious" - any way to make this simpler to avoid using "William" twice in the same sentence?
- "In 1889, Sadler moved to Battle Creek, Michigan" - is this William or his family in general? He's only 14 there, so it's unclear, considering the end of the previous paragraph is about William's father.
- "and specifically promoted prayer, arguing that prayer " - cut down on redundancy?
- "In addition to forty-two books" - per WP:MOSNUM that should be "42 books".
- I notice you have these two sentences in "Career". Any reason? They seem kinda similar.
- "His students later recalled him as an engaging and humorous public speaker"
- "Audiences found Sadler to be an engaging and witty speaker"
- This may be a dumb question, but I take it that the man who Sadler was interviewing about coming from another planet... that his name was never revealed? I saw - "He also feared that the patient would face criticism if his identity were known" - but has it ever been published?
- In "Urantia revelation" section, you should emphasize more that Salder isn't confirmed to be the author of the Urantia Book .Right now, it seems like Salder was the one who wrote it.
Those are the main things after a first read. Good work overall! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Good comments, I tried to fix the wording you pointed out and hopefully cleared up the ambiguity. The sleeping man's identity hasn't ever been proven, but speculation has centered around Wilfred. I believe everyone with first-hand knowledge is dead by now, so it probably won't ever definitively established, which is a large part of what makes this so fascinating to me. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:40, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delegate note -- I feel the prose could do with another run-through by someone; per my copyedits, the lead contained some niggling things and although the first section of the main body was an improvement, it still gave me some cause for concern... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:46, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Addressed by Noleander/Mark (below). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from Noleander
- Clarify 1st 2 sentences: "William Samuel Sadler (June 24, 1875 – April 26, 1969) was an American psychiatrist and author who compiled the conversations he had with a sleeping man through whom he believed extraterrestrials were speaking. The man's statements wer..." - the 1st sentence has 3 persons in it, a bit confusing. Also the "he believed" is ambiguous: is it referring to Sadler or the sleeping man? How about something like: "William Samuel Sadler (June 24, 1875 – April 26, 1969) was an American psychiatrist and author who published the Urantia book. The book was a compilation of conversations Sadler had with a sleeping man through whom Sadler believed extraterrestrials were speaking."
- Grammar ambiguous: "There he met the physician and health food promoter John Harvey Kellogg, co-inventor of corn flakes breakfast cereal who became his mentor, and married Kellogg's niece, .." - It sounds like JH Kellogg married his own niece.
- Double date: " - " ...his father-in-law in 1907. Also in 1907,.." - that doesnt read real smoothly. Reword such as "Sadler and his wife became speakers in 1907 ..."
- Ambiguity: "Back in the United States, he attempted to treat a patient with an unusual sleep condition, starting in 1911. .." - What started in 1911: the sleep condition or the treatment?
- Tough word: "Notwithstanding his lack of formal education, Sadler read many books about history ..." - Many readers wont know what "Notwithstanding" means. Reword as "In spite of ..." or "Despite ..." or best is just eliminate entirely: "Sadler read many books about history ..."
- Clarify: " that sought to enforce the Comstock laws. ..." - add a word or to so readers dont have to click on the link, e.g. " that sought to enforce the Comstock anti-obscenity laws. .."
- Clarify: " the couple traveled to Europe to study psychiatry ..." - Did the wife also study Ps?
- Ambiguous : "The Sadlers later joined other former Adventists..." - Who is the "other" referring to: was Sadler a former? or was Kellog a former? or both?
- Wrong word: " Sadler rejected some Adventist teachings, such as the status of Ellen G. White as a prophetess and the importance of Saturday as Sabbath, although he retained a positive view of White ..." - The "although" is not correct, since it implies the following text should contradict the prior text, but it does not. Recommend just replace "although" with a period.
- Wealth? - "Sadler and his wife moved into an Art Nouveau-style house—the first steel-frame residence in Chicago—on Diversey Parkway in 1912...." - It sounds like they were rich, if they were, it should be mentioned.
- I don't recall reading about them being particularly rich, although presumably Lena was an heir to the Kellogg fortune. Interesting, I hadn't thought much about that. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Details: "historian Jonathan Spiro deems Sadler's The Elements of Pep a "quintessential book of the 1920s". - Sounds like a cool book :-) I'd like to see a few words explaining its essence.
- Spiro doesn't explain much about it, unfortunately. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Explain: "In 1907, Sadler began giving Chautauqua adult-education lectures, .." - explain what a Ch lecture is ... clearly it is not just a town/location; dont make the reader click on the link.
- Explain: "Sadler presumed that the documents were the product of automatic handwriting, but changed his mind after further analysis" - First, add a couple of words to define "automatic handwriting" so reader doesnt have to click on the link; second: what did he change his mind to? The paragraph ends there .. his new view should be in the next sentence.
- Added a few words about AH, hope that works. He didn't really settle on an opinion after that, he approached it as an open question for several more years. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:55, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Unneeded words: "which could accommodate up to fifty guests." - just say "which could accommodate fifty guests."
- Who? "The group often held a forum to discuss the patient and devise questions for him." - What patient?
- What? "In 1935, Sadler concluded that the papers were not a hoax," - I presume this is refering to the papers mentioned 1 or 2 paragraphs above, but it should be restated that they are the papers obtained from the sleeping-speakers house.
- Clarify: " believes that Sadler sought to replace White with Wilfred Kellogg." - Not quite sure what "replace" means in this context.
- Ambiguous: "One member wrote that Sadler's personality changed after her death, and objected to his leadership." - Did the wife object to the leadership? If the member objected ... why did he object?
- Online versions of his works: In the Selected works section: if any of the books are online, it would be better if the book titles linked to ext links where the books are online (even if it is just Google Books preview mode).
- Good point, some of them are public domain and on Google books. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Book title caps: Most books in the Ref section have leading caps; but "Urantia: The Great Cult Mystery" is all caps. No big deal, but for FAC maybe they should all be consistent. I'm not sure if there is a WP MOS guideline on this or not.
- Pics: it would be nice to have a pic of the U book cover. I know that fair use rules are pretty strict, and generally limit book covers to the one article about the book; but I think an exception is made for a second article if the article analyzes the book in some significant way. See WP:NFCI which says: "Cover art: Cover art from various items, for visual identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)." Since this article talks about the book in detail, I believe that fair use is supported. NOTE: if you use it, you must add an entire Fair Use justification into File:The Urantia Book Cover--Urantia Foundation, Publisher.jpg ... cannot just piggy back on the existing justification for The Urantia Book article.
- I think I might hold off on this, I'm usually pretty conservative about Fair use (having had irritations with it in the past). Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- NPOV: Overall, the tone appears very neutral, not promoting Urantia/Sadler, nor skeptically deriding him.
- Thanks, glad to hear it--that's what I was shooting for. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Citations: Generally one per sentence, hence in compliance with WP:V. No problem there.
- Images: All images seem to meet WP free standards.
- Yeah, he's just old enough to have some decent PD pictures, thankfully. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overall, it looks very close to FA status. Leaning to Support. If you implement the above suggestions, let me know and I'll make another pass through the article.
End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 22:29, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks a lot for the quick review, good comments. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:20, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I went through the article again, and could not find any prose issues. Images are checked. I have not done a source spot check. Changed to "Support". --Noleander (talk) 15:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Great, thanks for all the helpful comments. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:28, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
