- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:48, 29 December 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]
- Nominator(s): Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 05:19, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I present William Wurtenburg, a very obscure 19th century American football coach. Born and raised in New York, going to Yale and playing on its football team appear to be the climax in Wurtenburg's life. He was a college football coach for six years, then spent the rest of his life giving people ear exams. Prior to my work on this article, the most comprehensive biography of Wurtenburg was a two-paragraph mention in the National Cyclopedia of American Biography. After a few months of hard work, I now believe this article will be the most comprehensive work ever made about this man. I received some help from Jweiss11 on fixing some of the mistakes I had made, and this now appears to be some of Wikipedia's best work (definitely its best on a random, obscure college football coach). - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 05:19, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – I have to say that I'm disappointed nobody has given this a review, nearly a month into the FAC. When I went through the article, I found it to be well worth my time. There are a few issues detailed below, but I think this is solid overall and deserves more attention than it's getting.
Early life and college: Do either of the sources provided explain why Wurtenburg was ejected from the Princeton game? That is a point that caught my interest, and it may explain why Barbour replaced him.
- Unfortunately not. The New York Times source is citing the fact that Barbour was the replacement quarterback, while Whitney (1891), which cites his ejection, simply states "[...] when Wurtenburg was disqualified in the Yale-Princeton game".
1890s: Whether the Quakers' name is Penn or Pennsylvania should be made consistent throughout.
- Done. Changed the one Pennsylvania to "Penn".
Who was Navy's third rival in 1894? I see Penn and Penn State, with no Army game, and the lead says they played three rivalry games that year.
- The third is Navy's "friendly rival" Georgetown. Added that to the article.
In the bibliography, the last book citation has a nasty red error message. Not sure why, but the year range could be the cause. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I think its probably due to both the date range and the c. Considering the range is all that is available, I don't know what to do with this.
- You could try removing the circa and just leaving the date range, which would be accurate in a sense since he wrote the content in different years. I don't know offhand if that would fix it, but the idea may be worth a shot. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:28, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I removed the circa and it appears to have fixed the problem. Thanks for following up. - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 05:47, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – All of my comments are now resolved and I'm satisfied that the article meets the FA criteria. Again, I hope other reviewers decide to spend some time with this one; I'd hate to see the FAC be archived due to a lack of reviews. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
Support. All my concerns have been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I'll add comments here as I go through the article. I've completed a pass through; this looks like a solid article, but I have a few questions and comments below.[reply]
"His final contribution to football was publishing a book about Yale football": is the title known? If so, it should be included.
- It seems to be this, which appears to be a scrapbook of clippings he put together and deposited in the Yale library rather than a published book. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:21, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Struck; sorry, didn't realize this was covered in more detail further below. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Sometime around then": a little colloquial. I'd suggest "At about that time" instead.
- Changed it to your suggestion.
"Wurtenburg began taking medical classes in his freshman year. Later that year, he joined the school's football team." Two short sentences makes for a jerky rhythm. How about "Wurtenburg began taking medical classes on his arrival at Yale, and joined the football team partway through his freshman year."?
- "was named national champions": I don't know whether in U.S. usage it's more usual to say describe a team as "national champion" or "national champions", but if it's the latter, shouldn't it be "were named", not "was named"?
- I honestly have no clue what the proper wording should be. I never really gave it any thought. I'll raise a question on the WP:CFB talk page in the morning, because I'm too exhausted to do it right now.
- Alright, now I'm just waiting on a reply.
Do we know when he graduated from Yale?
- Yes. It was in 1893, which I added at the end of the "Early life and college" section.
It appears he didn't play football for Yale in 1890; is that correct?
- Yes, it appears so. None of the sources I found mentioned anything about him playing in 1890.
I don't quite follow the sequence of events at the end of his time at Yale. He gave up his position at quarterback after 1889, but after being thrown out of his final game (in 1891, it seems) he was "replaced at quarterback". Can you clarify?
- I tried to word it a little better in the article. Basically, rules in early college football were not very well established or enforced. Unlike with today's 4-year playing limit, an athlete back then could, in theory, play on a team for as long as they were good enough, iff they had some sort of connection to the college (Paul Dashiell spent a year at St. John's College as a player, six years at Johns Hopkins as a player and grad student, and two years at Lehigh as a professor). In the case of Wurtenburg, he played his four years, apparently took a break in 1890, and attempted to return in 1891 as a grad student, but was ejected and never played again. I have no clue how many games Wurtenburg played in during 1891 (probably not very many, since he is not listed in any of the team's official rosters) but he definitely was thrown out of the last game and his spot was given to someone new (Barbour). I hope this helps. Sorry for the long explanation and for possibly any unnecessary details.
- I think what's confusing me is the phrase "gave up his position at quarterback". I assumed it meant he switched to another position, but I think you meant he quit playing for a while, so of course another quarterback came in. Do we know if he played at quarterback in 1891? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I now understand your confusion. We do not know what position he played at in 1891, and he did leave the team following 1889. I tried rewording that part to make it seem clearer. Is it better now?
"Wurtenburg began his coaching career on October 6 of that year": the last year mentioned prior to this sentence was 1893, so I think some rephrasing is in order since he apparently wasn't hired till 1894.
- Simply took out "that year" and put in "1894". Is that better?
"He instead accepted a position as the head coach of the Dartmouth team": we haven't had a date for several sentences at this point so I would suggest "as the head coach of the Dartmouth team, starting in the fall of 1895".
"After concluding his football career, Wurtenburg opened up his first medical office in 1889": should this be 1899? It comes after the events of 1898.
- Whoops! Yes, it should be 1899. Nice catch.
"At some point around 1904, Wurtenburg began pursuing a career as a physician. He set up his office not far from his residence...": doesn't this conflict with the comment that he opened his first medical office in 1889, even if that's actually a typo for 1899?
- I attempted to clarify this. It was more he started to dedicate himself to his medical career. Poor wording on my part.
"Sometime between 1902 and 1925, Wurtenburg collected a series of newspaper articles": the Worldcat link above gives the title as including the date range 1902 to 1915, so I think you can change this to "between 1915 and 1925".
Not knowing much about American football, I don't know what the difference is between the roles of the umpire and referee, so I don't know whether this is relevant, but via newspapers.com I found three accounts of games Wurtenburg refereed for Yale in October 1904, one of which (the Oct 9 issue of the Washington Times) you include in your list of sources. Does this contradict what you have about his role changing?
- Unfortunately, I do not (yet) have Newspapers.com access, so I cannot access the articles, but it seems like they would probably make me need to do a little rewriting. Any chance I could get the links or something?
- I'll make clippings of them this morning and post the links here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Here are the two you don't have:
- -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the clippings. Yes, this information does affect what I have in the article, and I changed it to include these games. I don't know how well it works grammatically, thought. - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 06:15, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- --Thanks for the review so far. I hope that I have addressed most of your concerns. - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 05:42, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I've supported above; I saw your post about the remaining issue, which is minor and doesn't affect my support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Image check - all OK 2 questions (Done)
File:William_Wurtenburg.png - most likely OK, but could you clarify the publication a bit? Is "1888 Yale football portrait" a yearly journal? We just should be sure, when the image was first published (the source is a collection from 2006).File:Frank Barbour.jpg - "University of Michigan Football Coaches: Frank E. Barbour" - same here, is that a journal? Most likely OK, but could the source be clarified a bit? (year, author, any kind of bibliographical info)- 2 other images are OK (PD with active source links).
First 2 images should be OK as well with some clarification. GermanJoe (talk) 00:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I clarified my source for the Wurtenburg image; it was from a book published in 1916. As for the Barbour image, it came from here and I could not find it anywhere else, so I removed it from the article. I replaced it with another, albeit worse, image of him, from the 1893 Michigan team portrait, which was published the same year. Thanks for the review, - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 03:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I actually like the new image better. Certainly not quality-wise, but it's a more natural shot of him. Thanks for the fixes, all OK now. GermanJoe (talk) 06:52, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments from SandyGeorgia
Exeter is not the kind of place one wanders in to after bouncing around or "eventually ends up at" :) :) Can this please be rephrased? It gives a funny impression of what it takes to get in to Exeter.
- Wurtenburg attended a number of schools as a child, eventually ending up at Phillips Exeter Academy, ...
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed it from "eventually ended up at" to "eventually got in to". Is this better? Thanks, - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 03:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Commends from Karanacs
I did some copyediting and also fleshed out the lead a little more
- MOS questions that I no longer know the answer to:
- are we supposed to translate yards into meters for, say, 35-yd run?
- are the dashes okay?
- Did he choose to leave his coaching position at Darthmouth? Might want to make that clear
- The article says that he set up a medical office in 1889, not far from his home. Then it says in 1904 he decided to dedicate himself to being a doctor and set up an office near his home. I'm confused.
Karanacs (talk) 17:22, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Welcome back, Karen! Re. your MOS questions, I think conversions are recommended as a matter of course (also, I couldn't see an obvious reason it's "35" in the lead and "thirty-five" in the main body), and I have now converted some dashes if that's what you meant.
- For my part, AwardGive, is everything that appears in the Head coaching record table cited in the main body? If not then I'd expect the table info to be cited.
- Lastly I know we're still waiting upon a source review here so I'll chase that up. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:24, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, firstly, to answer Karanacs: Thanks for covering the first two points, Ian Rose. For the third point, his time at Dartmouth is a blank spot in coverage, so I am not sure if he left or if he was kicked out, so I simply said he was replaced. Will that work? And I fixed the fourth point. Removed the repeating of him opening his office.
- Uh, I didn't see any direct response or action re. the two-pronged statement "I think conversions are recommended as a matter of course (also, I couldn't see an obvious reason it's "35" in the lead and "thirty-five" in the main body)"... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The "35" vs. "thirty-five" discrepancy is simply due to how I write. I would have preferred to have written "thirty-five" for both, but I felt like 35 would be better for the lead, since it takes up less space and allows a shorter intro. However, I am fine with altering either one to help with consistency. Thanks, - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 05:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
-
- I've dealt with this and the conversion myself to expedite things. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:47, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Secondly, to respond to Ian Rose: Again, thanks for covering Karanacs first two concerns. Yes, the information in the table is supported in the 1890s section. Laser Brain's "long list of nearly repeated web sources" all support the information in the table. And thanks for getting a source review. - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 04:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Source review from Laser brain
- Fn 1, you have the page number for White both here and in the biblio entry. You don't do this for any of the other books. Is there a reason for the inconsistency?
- I did this because White is (I believe) an encyclopedia of famous and semi-famous Americans, so I wanted to include the page of the entry. However, I have no preference over keeping the page number in the bibliography or not.
- Fn 2, page number? I don't understand the significance of the phrase in the fn.
- For Harrison (or at least the copy I looked at), there were not page numbers, so "Andover and Exeter: Growth of a Rivalry" is the chapter I found it in. I don't know if it's right to do that or if I formatted it wrong, but I did that to specify where I got it from.
- Fn 11, this story was on the front page of the New York Times?
- I could swear it was when I first looked at it, but I could find no evidence of what page it was on, so I just removed the page number.
- The Wurtenberg Scrapbook of Newspaper Clippings about Yale Football is in Worldcat.. please look it up and add the OCLC. Do you actually have this book? How do you know what's in it?
- I added the OCLC. And no, I do not have a copy of the book. Nor have I actually seen a copy. It appears that there are only one, maybe two known copies still left.
Looks good overall. My eyes started to go a bit cross-eyed looking through that long list of nearly repeated web sources. --Laser brain (talk) 20:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the source review. Although I doubt I solved everything, I have responded to all of your concerns. - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 04:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
