The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 2:18, 4 September 2022 (UTC) [1].

Joan of Arc[edit]

Notified: Durova, WikiProject Vital Articles, WikiProject Biography/Military, WikiProject Catholicism, WikiProject Religion, WikiProject Women's History, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Middle Ages, WikiProject France, WikiProject Gender studies, WikiProject Citizendium Porting, 2021-07-25

Review section[edit]

I am nominating this featured article for review because of sourcing concerns and bloated sections. There are citation needed templates from 2017 that need to be resolved. Multiple sources have been added to the article since its FAC, and I am skeptical that they are of the highest quality and should be evaluated for their inclusion, especially because of the vast amount of literature available for this person. There are also some bloated sections such as "See also" and "External links" which need to be reviewed, trimmed or for the See also section moved into "Legacy". I also have other concerns, which I am happy to outline in detail if anyone is interested in working to fix up this article.

This article is of interest to multiple Wikiprojects, task forces, and working groups. If one is not listed above, please add them to the list and place a notification on their talk page. Thanks. Z1720 (talk) 18:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken a stab at trimming See also/ELs, but have been reverted. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like your trimmed version has been reinstated - FWIW I would consider it clearly better. Both cutting all of the see also links which repeated links in the article body per MOS:NOTSEEALSO and severely cutting back the general reference works in the further reading section are clear improvements. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken a quick glance at the book sources. I have doubts about Bloy 2021, as the publisher's website has a logo of an outhouse and describes it being the publisher for things that other publishers would refuse. Some of the source dates are also misleading - De Quincey and Gower are both given publishing dates in the 2000s, but they're really sources from the 19th century. This needs further attention. Hog Farm Talk 19:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looking over it, the sourcing needs a lot of work - it doesn't look like it reflects the current academic literature etc. Generally, the article doesn't feel FA to me. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:39, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've begun supplying missing citations, and will continue during the coming days as time permits; I can also correct the other problems that have been identified. GBRV (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
GBRV, are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I can work on it later today when I have time. GBRV (talk) 10:21, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @GBRV: Please ping me here when you are finished your edits and I will conduct a more thorough review. Z1720 (talk) 20:16, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll do that. GBRV (talk) 16:07, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is http://www.stjoan-center.com/ a high-quality reliable source? Who is this author? http://www.stjoan-center.com/military/stephenr.html Also, since he provides a bibliography, could we not better consult the original sources ? The article also uses history.com, and a non-reliable newspaper reporting on info supplied by an auction house (https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/joan-arc-ring-dating-back-15th-century-sale-london-auction-1535043) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:48, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wtfiv I'll keep working on it, and can contact you if I need help. GBRV (talk) 18:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
GBRV Sounds good. I started templating references and moving them so they can be separated out. There's two of them. But I'll stop for now until I hear otherwise. Feel free to revert what I've done. See my comments on the article talk page for what I did as well. Wtfiv (talk) 19:12, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
FAR Committee, I think GBRV is committed to salvaging the article, and is most comfortable without my involvement at this time. I asked GBRV to ping me whenever my skills may be of use in collaborative editing. Additionally, please contact me for some unfortunate reason progress stalls and it comes up for a delist vote again, and I'll put my energy into keeping it featured. It seems pretty straightforward to accessibly, reliably and consistently source. Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FARC section[edit]

Issues raised in the review section include sourcing and structure. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:16, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Buidhe If the vote now needs to run its course, I'll stay out of it. Otherwise, I'd like to give it a try to not have it delisted, particularly if the references are the big problem. My work would be slow until late January, but I would work at it in the interim.) I just don't want to tread on GBRV's work. Wtfiv (talk) 05:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Striking vote if there is a plan for fixing up the article :) (t · c) buidhe 05:23, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
FARC team, I think GBRV is committed to salvaging the article, and is most comfortable without my involvement at this time. I asked GBRV to ping me whenever my skills may be of use in collaborative editing. Additionally, please contact me for some unfortunate reason progress stalls and it comes up for a delist vote again, and I'll put my energy into keeping it featured. It seems pretty straightforward to accessibly, reliably and consistently source. Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please at least allow me to continue working on fixing the problems first before voting to delist. GBRV (talk) 17:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Sandy! I am working on it, but this month my pace is slower than normal so it may take until January. It's been a bit tough since the sourcing in this article was looser than I expected. I'm also glad that GBRV is pitching in too! Wtfiv (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24 I think it would be great to get the operas in there! Wtfiv (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24 I didn't mention the operas and plays, as there is a separate article, Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, with a huge list. There is so much art inspired by her story! Wtfiv (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy Happy New Year!
SN54129 Happy New Year to you too! Right now, I'm at the retrial section, as I'm working forward sequentially. Just let me know what you would like to do, and I can stay out of your way while you are working on it It looks to me there is a lot of work: Retrial, Canonization, Legacy, Visions, Cross-dressing all seem to need a lot of TLM (tender, loving maintenance). If you want to pick a section (and I have no problem handing off the "Retrial" section before I dive in deeper into the research- let me know and I'll stay out of your way. If one of us gets done a section and is ready for another, we can just message each other here.
Also, if you want to edit any preceding section, please do. And, I can follow up with citation formatting as you complete sections, if you find it a hassle. Ideally it'd be great if all citations be linkable, but of course, that is just a preference on my part. (Verifying citation to text integrity- and assessing reliability of sources- has been one of the major issues.) Just let me know what you would like to do. Wtfiv (talk) 18:28, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SN54129 — Review here please :) 16:52, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll volunteer to edit the Visions and Cross-dressing sections. GBRV (talk) 18:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
GBRV That sounds great! You have a good editor's eye! I have a couple of not too strong requests on those sections that I'll post on the Joan talk page. Wtfiv (talk) 01:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just mentioning that the edits for the review are still underway. There's definitely headway, I think, but once more the progress may slow a bit, but hopefully its moving along well enough that it can remain part of the review process. If there is a concern, please let me know. Wtfiv (talk) 01:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Many editors are still working on this article and improvements are being made. Z1720 (talk) 16:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi FAR committee, I think the draft sections in which I took on the lead role in editing (all but "Visions" and "Cross-dressing") are now ready for review. I am particularly grateful to GBRV for all the follow-up editing: patience as my aligning text to source modified much of the original story, opening discussion when needed, addressing issues of detail, cleaning up poorly worded prose, and the tireless copy editing.
GBRV has taken on the lead role in editing the "Visions" and "Cross Dressing" sections and is still working on them. Once GBRV feels they are ready to go, and the FAR review begins, I'll be ready and available to address any concerns raised. Thanks for your patience so far! Wtfiv (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lead has a series of one- or two-sentence paragraphs which could probably be re-worked to four or five paragraphs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is fixed: merged post-Paris activities into one paragraph; combined religious legacy with cultural legacy. Wtfiv (talk) 22:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also merged all military activity up to the Siege of Paris into one paragraph. Wtfiv (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm away from my usual place dealing with personal issues, but can return to the editing around mid-week of next week. If the team is good with what I've done so far. Here's my perspective:
  • Removing Williamson is no problem. I too ha questions about the Williamson site. I put it in as a compromise with another editor who wanted to keep the issue about Joan's clothing preventing rape. IBut I did look the article over, and it seemed to me that it didn't misquote its primary sources. It's major contribution was the one about Joan's clothing, which I implicitly offered as a collaborative compromise for another active editor. Removing it, and leaving the issue in the "cross-dressing" section with the more reliable sources seems to me to be a reasonable solution. (But I do think there was a lot of Williamson's language in the original article, such as stating the retrial declared Joan innocent when sources state her trial was annulled, incorrectly calling the second trial an appellate court, and removing all language implying that the original trial had inquisitional powers and the suggestion that Joan was primarily executed for cross-dressing)
  • I thought I minimized reliance on Frohlick. I just checked, and there's only one reference, accompanied with another source, Pernoud and Clin, who are acknowledged scholars who make a similar point. That said, Frohlick can be edited out with no problem.

My thought was once we get the drafting taken care of- which would be the cross-dressing and visions sections- the team comes in and makes all the needed suggestions allow the article to maintain its featured star. I'm open to whatever solution the team deems appropriate, though my own desired goal would be a solution that keeps the featured article status. To my eye, this seems straightforward if we complete the major revision on the visions and cross-dressing sections , remove the Williamson and the Frohlick (references, which is easy), and if the problems of copy-editing are not fatal to the articles integrity. Thoughts? Wtfiv (talk) 22:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you are able to accomplish all of that, and if we don't have any socking interference, we should be able to round up people to copyedit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that finishing up shouldn't be hard nor take overly long. Frohlick and Williamson are already deleted. (The Frohlick was just a reference to an image of Joan's signature, but it's not really needed, as it's already in the saint infobox.) That just leaves the last two sections. My major editing concern to date- and the part that leads me to work more slowly- has been ensuring that the project respects the perspective of all editors who felt passionately.
What I do have concerns about is that many of the ancillary Wikipedia articles related to Joan of Arc topics that are linked in the article reference many of the same problematic sources and make many of the same (IMO) poorly sourced and, most likely, incorrect claims. But that's beyond the scope of my commitments. Wtfiv (talk) 22:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wtfiv this article is the mother lode, from which the unscrupulous would desire to derive hits.
Please remember to keep Wikipedia:Featured article review/George Fox/archive2 updated, as to whether you can still work there. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the Visions and Cross-dressing sections. I think the article is now well-sourced and has a consistent format throughout. I have no doubt that there are egregious first pass (first public draft) copy edit errors in those sections. Still, please take a look and if you think the article is ready for copy editors, if it should wait until I do more cleanup, or if major concerns still remain. just let me know. Wtfiv (talk) 08:00, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, a copyedit is needed, although most of the issues are minor typos, missing words or wikilinks, punctuation, and such.[3] @Hchc2009, Z1720, Serial Number 54129, and Aza24: I stopped after I realized I may be messing up the tenses. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sandy. Let me know when folks think the text and sources are up to FA standard and I'll happily give it a thorough review. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
FARC break

Hi Hchc2009, At this point, I think the sources should be pretty good. There's also more cleanup I'm working at (cleaning up residue of possible sockpuppeting, and cleaning up the "Background" section.) Also, I'll keep at the copy editing, which you had previously mentioned. Its not my strength and its a slow grind, but I'll keep at it to salvage the article. But my question for you, is when you glance at the article what are the major issues you'd still like to see addressed? If possible, I will do what I can to take care of them before you give it a more thorough review. Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 06:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe, Z1720, SandyGeorgia, Aza24, Serial Number 54129, and Hog Farm: What issues are outstanding from your perspectives? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:50, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The number of footnotes is vastly excessive, failing the summary style requirement. Some sources such as Sackville-West, Victoria (1936). Saint Joan of Arc, Lowell, Francis Cabot (1896). Joan of Arc, Mackinnon, James (1902). The Growth and Decline of the French Monarchy., etc., it's questionable if they are HQRS. (t · c) buidhe 02:53, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is too long for optimal readability and should be shortened to meet MOS:LEAD (t · c) buidhe 02:57, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yikes. There are 2,600 words in footnotes; that's an entire article. Wtfiv, how did this come to be ? I have to agree with the terms vastly excessive.
SandyGeorgia Regarding footnotes: I've removed most of the Latin quotes taken from Quicherat. (The Latin quotes were added to ensure that uncited quotes were verifiable. Many quotes originally in Latin were being cited as English-language citation without attribution. This may be related to socking. And even some of secondary source cites are questionable translations when compared to the Latin original.) I've reduced the citations. I also removed a miscelleny of other footnotes. Using LibreOffice to verify, there are now 36 footnotes with a wordcount of 1,398. For comparison, the footnotes for Joyce come in 54 for a wordcount of 1,920. (If there is a WP tool for word counting footnotes, please let me know). So, I'd suggest this is no longer excessive, but FAR can decide this. (Personally, I like the footnotes, as they amplify controversies and interesting but subsidary points without detracting from the text.)
I disagree on the lead length; MOS:LEAD provides guidelines which, of late, have been (mis)interpreted as strict rules at FAC, to the detriment of some leads. As one of many examples of misapplication of what the guideline actually says, Modussiccandi's lead at L. D. Reynolds came into FAC at a perfectly fine summary of the article, which was damaged at its FAC, based on a misread of what the guideline actually says. I think the length about right here. The more important aspects of MOS:LEAD are that we provide a concise overview that summarizes the body and entices the reader to continue; nowhere does MOS prescribe as an absolute only a certain number of paragraphs or words. The lead is going to be the only thing someone like me will be interested in and it gives me what I need to know. I do see some words that can be trimmed here and there, but leave that to the prose masters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:21, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sample: She was captured by Burgundians troops on 23 May and afterwards exchanged to the English. She was put on trial by the pro-English bishop, Pierre Cauchon, on a charge of heresy ... could lose the date and three sentences in a row starting with she and later is implied/redundant ... something like ... Burgundians troops captured her and exchanged her to the English; the pro-English bishop, Pierre Cauchon, had her tried for heresy. I'm not a wordsmith, but this gives me the idea that word trimming and redundancy reducing may be in order throughout. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:33, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Back on the question of 2,600 words in footnotes, as one example, why isn't this footnote just a source with a note or quote attached ? What is the distinction here between footnotes and citations? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • She was a warrior,[1] whose leadership helped restore the kingdom of France.[a]
  • SandyGeorgiaThe Piccolimini quote was footnoted because an indirect quote. I tend to footnote supporting quotes (e.g., opinions, letters, trial transcripts, and indirect quotes); I tend to reserve citation template post-scripts to quote foreign text, which I try to tie to a linkable source, and provide an accompanying and verifiable English translation. Wtfiv (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ The historian Larissa Taylor quotes Aeneas Sylvius Piccolimini, who later became Pope Pius II: "[Joan is] that astonishing and marvelous Maid who restored the kingdom of France".[2]

References

  1. ^ DeVries 1999, p. 3; Richey 2003, p. 6; Taylor 2009, p. 185.
  2. ^ Taylor 2012, p. 240.
I will look in tomorrow; I can only look at generalities, as the topic is out of my comfort zone. Could someone bribe Ealdgyth to at least glance over this one? Like, offer her a prize Arabian horse or something ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand editors feeling a need for topic sentences, but sentences like this leave me cold:

It says nothing, and means nothing, and why "remains"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:13, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple instances of the also redundancy: for example:

The also is unnecessary; a review throughout would be helpful, with an eye towards Graham and Tony1. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Something is off in this sentence in the lead, which could also be trimmed:

All in all, as Wtfiv asked/indicated above, a copyedit by a new set of eyes is in order. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:39, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit concerned about a few sourcing bits here:

The alternative historical interpretations also cites the 1819 Caze as its first case. But the Joan article citation is more verifiable. The page number links to a freely accessible source, and the quotation in French is also directly linked in the citation, and a translation is offered in the citation post-script. The reference links to the freely available book in Google Books as well. Wtfiv (talk) 01:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have not done source-text checks (which should be done, given the socking in the history), nor have I checked to make sure that more than a couple of the primary citations are appropriate. Hog Farm Talk 15:17, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Buidhe and Hog Farm; between your comments and mine (prose, plus sourcing, plus source-to-text integrity check on a long article), I am getting the impression that bringing this article over the line is going to require a sustained effort from a number of us (similar to the surprise we got at J. K. Rowling, where we found bigger issues once we dug in). Z1720? Am I overstating the case? If this is the case, what is the plan? My prose is not good enough to do the copyediting on an article in this content area of this scope. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:27, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My thought is that it depends on the results of the spot-checking. Of the sources I flagged, Caze (the 1819 bastard claim) is only used once; Russell 2014 is only used once, and for a historical backgroundstatement that should be easier to replace; Egan is only used once, and for a historical background statement; Linder is only referenced as a translation of the abjuration in a footnote in a spot that should probably be an EL instead of part of the footnote, so at least the one's I've flagged should be easily fixable. Hog Farm Talk 15:33, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So depending on what Buidhe and Z1720 say, perhaps a spotcheck should be next, before attempting a copyedit? I'm concerned about that, as there are so many book sources. (I wish the Ealdgyth bribe had worked ... ) Am I correct that library access is needed to spotcheck here ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia spot checking should be simple.
  • I think every book citation links to a work that is freely available and verifiable. (Archive.org needs a registration).
  • When possible, a page link is provided at each citation, so that the reader can just click it to verify.
  • Just a note on citations. In addition, to showing consensus, multiple sources also provide differences of context and interpretation, which is fascinating to that very small percentage of readers who want to go deeper into the sources. Wtfiv (talk) 00:45, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would feel much more comfortable making sure the sources were right before fixing prose, since this article's socking history seems to go back some time. Hog Farm Talk 15:48, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, fix the sourcing issues first and axe notes, then work on the prose. Issues are not insurmountable but they will require sustained effort to fix. (t · c) buidhe 17:49, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


At this point, my editing on Wikipedia is much slower and more "catch as catch can". Though I'll continue to work on the article.
buidhe I don't know what HQRS means, but I think it has to do with old reliable sources? Here's some background. Because the primary source is stable, most points in the older works have not been superceded:
  • Lowell's work remains a good detailed summry of even older data from the perspective of a legal scholar.
  • Sackville-West's work is a classic, which is cited throughout the literature. Though it must be used carefully, she often makes the strongest points about Joan's role as a non-traditional woman. And Sackville-West dug deeply into the literature. Sproles 1996 provides a good summary.
More importantly, when I was working through the article, almost every statement I edited was challenged, so I wanted to make sure that each change could be verified and it wasn't the opinion of one source. Now that much of that issue has been resolved, I'm willing alter this. But the citations do solidify the article and challenge any future changes to the article to rely on cited sources. Please let me do what you suggest.
SandyGeorgia The footnotes are vast because when working with GBRV, I wanted to ensure that the quotes were exact as most changes were challenged. Each change was challenged, and I wanted to make sure they were justified and cited. (As you can gather, at one point after finishing the biography, I was exhausted with making the changes and just handed it to the challenging editor.) But now, a great many can easily be removed.
The sourcing bits seem fairly minor.
  • Pizan can be moved to a primary source, though it is second-hand.
  • I added Egan when I found it in my research. I have no issues about citing a well-sourced thesis. I like to lead readers to such articles. But it can certainly go.
  • Preston Russell was an artifact of an earlier article (and the previous "Visions" section had an unattributed quote from him, too.) I didn't have the heart to remove Russell, given he recently died in the last two years. The book seemed informal but interesting and had citations. The publisher is a minor one, the citation is a minor one too. And it could certainly go if that's the consensus.
  • Famous-trials.com just cites documents. I used it because it seemed to translate things accurately based on my research and is easily accessed. I may be able to find the documents elsewhere in the depths of archive.org, but it was convenient.
Hog Farm I'd really appreciate somebody source checks! I have no doubt I've made errors along the way. I've caught and fixed a few myself, as I often click them repeatedly when editing. I do think, however, that the majority of errors made are minor. I'd appreciate those being addressed, since almost all are linked and I'd like them to be appropriate.
  • I cited Caze verbatim to ensure the claim was right. I'm not big on the revisionist history section at all, but if we keep it, I want it to be verifiable. Wtfiv (talk) 03:32, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to address why this article is where it is with so many footnotes (with exact quotes) and citations. Sandy and Hogfarm have gotten to the key of why this article is where it is. When I started, I was wondering why it was semi-protected. Then I've encountered my first deep-sock work in this article. My work has been an attempt to thoroughly vacuum out the socking. Unfortunately, even as I was working on the article, I had to thoroughly support each edit for an editor who seemed committed to the sock version. Every change had to be supported by multiple authors to ensure they wouldn't be softly reverted. (For example, the overly long footnote on Charles VII attempt to save Joan, when the overwhelming consensus is that no effort was taken.) I think I've scoured out the vast majority of socking related material. However, you can see that I did keep the points made via the socking if there were reliable sources to back it up. Usually this was done in the context of presenting it as one opinion amidst others. (e.g., the cross-dressing section). Though I'm not the best copy-editor, I went through each source and tried to verify it. Keep in mind that this socking may occur again. Having solid verifiable sources, and requiring them for new edits, seems to be the best tool for challenging future attempts, which seem decades old and will probably return again.
This has started me on a secondary project. Although it is not directly related to the Joan of Arc article, I've been also working on Joan of Arc related articles (e.g., Trial of Joan of Arc,Retrial of Joan of Arc, Pierre Cauchon,Canonization of Joan of Arc). Most of the issues are related to content brought up in the investigations. Whether direct or not, much of the information is close to verbatim from same few articles and websites that are associated the sock-puppet investigations. Interestingly, these verbatim sources sometimes have English-language quotes with quotations marks for difficult to access sources in French.
Frankly, this one has been a tougher haul than I expected given the complexities of the socking, but its been educational too! As always, my posts are far too long, but that said, I'm willing to continue to help out with this article as the FARC sees fit. Just let me know. Wtfiv (talk) 21:47, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Feeling badly that you had to go through this :( All things considered, we probably should keep the footnotes, as the sock is persistent. Maybe just chip away at the prose for now? I'm socked in trying to wrap up some difficult issues at another FAR for at least a few more days, and always have my own list of socks trying to make my editing here a miserable experience :( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The image caption's ref says "It is not impossible that this miniature comes from the collection of Georges Spetz" — but the image caption itself says "most likely an art forgery by the Alsatian painter Georges Spetz" — how is this an equivalent interpretation? Aza24 (talk) 05:00, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24 Good call! I'm not sure if the footnote translation helped catch it, but that's why I like everything being verifiable. I'll remove mention of Spetz. Wtfiv (talk) 04:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Editing summary with respect to FAR concerns to date.

In Talk:Joan of Arc 25 July 2021, Z1720 raised the following concerns. This is how they've been addressed:

Sinking into reality noted in the same section above:

In the delist discussion above, Hchc2009 mentions issues with:

Other issues:

  • Unverified claims and original research has been removed.
  • I've kept a number of points advocated by the sock puppet if WP:RS also support the point. But the points have usually been reduced to one perspective among others. Sock puppet sources are not used. (The three sources questioned are not part of sock puppet investigation. As mentioned, they can be removed by editors having doubts.)

From my understanding, the remaining issues raised are trimming and copyediting. (Ongoing: trimming and copyediting will continue for a while.)

Otherwise, I'm thinking the major concerns that triggered the FAR have been addressed? (Though, there is always more for editors to do!) Wtfiv (talk) 04:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sentence in first paragraph on Joan's death added L'Origine du monde on 6 April 2022. Seemed like a good addition. Just edited it slightly by adding "by the English".
SandyGeorgia
  • I just deleted the name and nickname items. La Pucelle is mentioned in the article with references. Maid of Orleans is not mentioned or cited in the text, but if you feel it is important we could move it to the Early Legacy. I can find a reference somewhere. Just let me know. Otherwise, I'll leave it out.
  • There's a footnote on why the saints are not linked. They were linked in the past, but this is one of the times the suspected sock puppet was right: Joan never specified which Saints were Margaret and Catherine. I looked it up. Many scholars assume it is Margaret of Antioch and Catherine of Alexandria. See Sullivan, 1999, pp. 88–89, who is cited in the footnote. There are links in the footnote too. But, if you prefer to link them in the main text. Let me know. Both options make sense: one is slightly more accurate. The other gives readers context.
  • Baudricourt was there when I arrived. It's a critical point in Joan's story, but I agree Baudricourt shouldn't steal the lead limelight. Baudicourt is out of the lead now.
  • "Successive" is gone. Wtfiv (talk) 06:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I reviewed the article and made some MOS changes. Overall, I think this is ready to keep. Z1720 (talk) 02:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An accessible work by Curry et al. (2015) was added as a source and used as citation for two points. Wtfiv (talk) 16:48, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hchc2009 comments

From my side, although the article is much improved on its condition last year, I think there's still quite a bit to do to meet FA standards:

  • Heroine falls out of her legacy role explained in sections below: she is seen a symbol of France, a saint, a martyr, a heroic women. All cited. However, please feel free to substitute appropriate word for "heroine".
  • 500 years changed to "Four hundred and eighty-eight".
  • Joan's age is emphasized to remind readers of her youth at the beginning of her role. Please delete if not seen as appropriate.
  • Specific dates are given to show the speed of Joan's Orlean campaign: 29 April to 16 July. Please delete if not seen as appropriate. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure where the lead directly addresses the political issue. It does mention that Cauchon was pro-English. If that is problematic, please delete. I didn't catch anything else, but please reword any other sentence in the lead that states trial was political. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Creative psychopathy" is a very concerning term vis-à-vis this article

I feel it pronounces judgment upon what this visionary and creative genius was expressing by calling her psychopathic. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am extremely well-versed in DSM-V symptom descriptions and diagnoses, and I feel that it is unfair to her character to call her a psychopath. I suggest removing it entirely. I'd love comments before I do so, just to make sure I'm onto something here. The myopia of Western scientific thought as like, the ONLY way Wikipedia tends to operate, means that her uniqueness doesn't get a chance to be subjectively interpreted, which is the purpose of visionary art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anktrumpet (talk • contribs) 06:36, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is sourced and balanced by the follow-on sentence. DrKay (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with DrKay, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wtfiv re this objection from July to creative psychopathy (which both DrKay and I disagreed with), now that you've had to remove the clarifying footnotes, with this edit, the creative psychopathy issue has to be revisited. (For the record, I think the footnote deletions are unfortunate, but que será será.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As per the comments below. I put the footnote back in. But it is fronted by a cited claim. I will remove them if that is the consensus. Wtfiv (talk) 01:48, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Status update?[edit]
Nikki, I have been intending to do a full read-through for some time, but real life got messy. I am still intending, but need a solid block of uninterrupted time for full focus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:26, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll wait, then, for Wtfiv to finish addressing Hchc2009's comments. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:53, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wtfiv? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Reviewers. I'd like to register that this process is frustrating. I chose to do FAR instead of FAN, as I preferred to do cleanup instead of advocating for why my version of an article deserves to be a featured article. When I joined this FAR, I cleaned up all the original points that put this article on FAR. As Nikkimaria knows, this was incredibly difficult in this article. (For example, Nikkimaria tried to remove some of the recommended reading, but was reverted. Working with the editors who monitor this cite, we were able to eventually get consensus.)
In addition, this article was also deeply embedded in a long-term sockpuppet issues (particularly vast numbers of unverifiable citations, misleading citations, and the like), I wound up leading to a fairly substantial rewrite after all. But, I did my best to keep the general forms of what was required. I've also tried to address the concerns of reviewers as best as possible. (e.g., changing the lead to four paragraphs, changing writing and format.)
But at this point, I continue to address concerns . At least ones about prose editing and style. (See all my responses in the FAR above). But I feel like I'm back at what I do like about FAN. As you can see, I feel I am asked to make changes that I feel are more a matter of perspective that I may not agree with (e.g., validity of sources, length of footnotes). I have addressed why I didn't make the changes I did, but I also mentioned that I was open to other editors making the majority of changes if they disagree.
I would request that approval of this article not be contingent on my having to make changes I may not agree with to get approval (e.g., quality of sources and footnotes). That is what I disliked about FAN. But, I am comfortable with any concerned reviewer coming in to make the changes themselves, if they feel they are improving the article. Given the amount of work done in terms of text/source integrity with multiple linked sources, addressing original concerns, and- with some help- working through the effects of a long-term alleged sockpuppet on this article- I'm hoping approval my work addressing the original FAR concerns will result in the article maintaining its FAR status. Though I am biased by my investment of effort and there is always room for more improvement, I think the article is far improved in quality even when it was listed as a featured article. Thank you for your consideration. Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have started my review on talk; I expect it to take three or four days at least, and will keep commentary there in the meantime, summarizing back to here when done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Buidhe I am still working through prose and other issues, but the footnotes have been considerably reduced. When you have a chance (no hurry), could you have a look? I believe the number of footnotes is now within reason, and I'm not seeing any that are unnecessary, but a fresh look from you with an eye towards specifying anything you still see as problematic would be helpful at this stage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Update. Wtfiv and I have worked through all of the article except a) the lead (leaving 'til last), and b) a few bits of the Legacy section that I'd like to re-work before tackling the lead.
I believe/hope we have addressed Hchc2009's concerns about footnotes, image captions and prose (except the lead), and Buidhe's concerns about the number of footnotes. I've pinged both of them but haven't heard back from either (Hchc2009 is not currently editing).
By next week, we should be ready for other independent reviewers to look through, and I'll ping them in when finished with the lead work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:14, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
FARC break for independent review

A first draft new lead has been installed (see Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive2#Lead draft 1) and the entire article is ready for independent review. @Aza24, Buidhe, Caeciliusinhorto, Extraordinary Writ, Firefangledfeathers, Hchc2009, Hog Farm, John, Johnbod, Serial Number 54129, and Z1720: also Drmies, who has been involved at Hundred Years' War and might have the knowledge to look at those pieces. Victoriaearle I know Ceoil is traveling, so have not pinged him; does this article interest you? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would definitely oppose this article at FAC for multiple reasons: footnotes are still excessive, lead is too long, some parts of the article have short and stubby paragraphs... but it has been improved a lot as well. (t · c) buidhe 17:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Buidhe I agree the lead could benefit from trimming, but not to such an extent that review cannot progress at this point. Re: "some parts of the article have short and stubby paragraphs", correct paragraphing is more useful than aiming for a certain length-- can you please identify specifically which paragraphs you think need addressing? I disagree that the footnoting is now excessive; could you please identify specifically which you think are either a) not warranted, or b) better worked in to the text or citations? We are to a point where specifics are more useful than generalities. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The lead has been trimmed to a very reasonable 487 words; see Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive2#Lead Draft 2. Joan is not a niche or pop culture topic that can be easily summarized in 300 words or less, and sources say she is one of the most studied people of the Middle Ages. On the scale of grander topics, Second Punic War (a smaller article with 6,229 words of prose than Joan at 7,530) recently passed FAC with a 672-word lead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:11, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue that nearly all the footnotes should be cut or integrated into the body. Furthermore, after examination I found issues with original research. Examples:
  • "Joan testified she preferred her banner to a sword and never killed anyone." If this isn't covered in secondary sources I would say it's irrelevant/UNDUE
    Banner footnote deleted.
  • "Biographer Frances Gies states that when Joan's family was ennobled,..." if there's a substantial dispute about the ennoblement, it can't be stated as fact in the main article text (see WP:WIKIVOICE).
    Footnote deleted. The sole source discussing the distinction between the granting of a coat of arms and ennoblement is Bouzy in a French Journal published by the Bulletin annuel de l'Association Connaissance de Jeanne d'Arc [Annual Bulletin of the Association for Knowledge about Joan of Art], a now defunct journal. All other sources mention ennoblement. Will go with them, rather than elaborating issue with whether the family name was changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wtfiv (talk • contribs) 22:13, August 17, 2022 (UTC)
  • Lightbody 1961, pp. 133–134 argues that the claim that Joan was executed without a secular sentence may have been due to the biases of the rehabilitation trial. — if it's just one source from 50+ years ago saying so, it's clearly UNDUE and should just be eliminated
    deleted Lightbody's point.
  • For "None of these explanations has strong support, and each has been challenged" needs direct support from a reliable source. Based on the note it's unclear whether this is original research, since the note just gives examples.
    added citation, deleted footnote, and modified prose. Wtfiv (talk) 01:44, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on other reviewers more recent comments and a editor revision, put the footnote back in for now. But if it needs to be removed it can be. Wtfiv (talk) 01:50, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Further discussion below. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Most biographers agree that there is little evidence that Charles tried to save Joan once she was transferred to the English..." seems likely original research since you cite a LOT of authors. Which one directly supports that "most biographers" agree with the statement? (t · c) buidhe 19:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed statement, slightly reworded to "There is no direct evidence..." Almost every source I could find that makes a pronouncement makes this one. Michelet was given as exception when working with suspected sockpuppet editor. However, a look at the link shows that Michelet is making inferences on second-hand evidence. Wtfiv (talk) 21:45, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Four more footnotes integrated into the text. Two were examples from primary literature. Each of these now have secondary citations. The changes are here, here, here, and here Wtfiv (talk) 06:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be a bit of a Catch-22 in your comments (I could be misunderstanding). One of the (many) reasons one would legitimately use a footnote versus a citation is to explore and clarify those instances where scholars hold different views, even if/when only one of them, who is credible, disagrees. Unless I am misunderstanding, you are evaluating footnotes as if they were citations, and rejecting the use of footnotes to clarify when the different scholars say different things. With the amount of scholarship that exists about Joan, it's hard to imagine how one could entirely omit views held by credible scholars, and exploring differences from the main in a footnote seems appropriate for those limited instances; I'm amazed that Wtfiv was able to gel so much scholarship down to less than 8,000 words, and commend the painstaking and worthy effort. But Wtfiv knows the whole body of research far far better than I do, so over to them as to how to resolve these. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that footnotes could be useful in cases of disagreement. However, at least my preferred approach in such cases is to use secondary sources to state the prevalence of different views. For example, causes of the Armenian genocide states that religious and cultural explanations used to be the primary ones in Western scholarship, but have since become discredited as the primary cause, as focus has shifted to multicausal frameworks. (t · c) buidhe 17:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's quite a difference, though, in the (large amount of) research about Joan (Middle Ages), and the Armenian genocide (World War I) 500 years later. Armenian genocide scholarship may be still evolving to a greater extent than Joan; with Joan, we have what we have, until/unless something new surfaces, and it is a large volume that has to be gelled down. I believe Wtfiv has struck a good balance, in spite of having to deal for a year with a disruptive sockmaster. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:55, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Buidhe there are four footnotes left, and the lead is considerably shortened and well within the range of what passes FAC. Please let the page know where you stand, as other reviewers are waiting to proceed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:19, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks SandyGeorgia for the ping. I didn't realize until seeing all the recent activity this FAR was still ongoing, but, yes, have had the page on watch for well over a decade and offered some help re sourcing - way back in November maybe? Anyway, am tied up w/ a few appointments this week. Will see if I'm able to get to it on the weekend. A quick comment re the most recent and visible edit at the top of my watchlist: without having looked through the comments here so there may be a reason for the deletion, I'm a bit concerned about removing the text re the cause (or unknown cause) for the visions. We can't know what caused her visions; we can't even know whether she had them. All we can do is report what historians say, quite frankly as far back as the early chronicles, so I'm not convinced that material should be removed. Will try to dive in later, read this page, read the article, post comments, etc. I have a bit of background re Charles VI & Isabeau of Bavaria <cough, cough> (see FACs for that page and Bal des Ardents) so will make sure it all hangs together. Victoria (tk) 00:54, 18 August 2022 (UTC) Adding, it's back now, so yes, discussion needed. Victoria (tk) 00:59, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Victoria (and Wtfiv), I'm satisfied with this version of the Visions v. medical issues (reinstating the Causes footnote but fronted by a citation). (This text sits quite well with me when compared to what has been described as one of the strongest posthumous diagnoses in medicine, Samuel Johnson's Tourette syndrome, whose symptoms were so well documented by James Boswell that the diagnosis is rock solid; there is no such record in Joan's case.)
I believe Wtfiv has now deleted all the rest raised by Buidhe.
Victoria, thanks for the offer to help! Per your comments at J. K. Rowling, should I continue to refrain from pinging you ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
About to log out, will look at the various versions when I get back here. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I had offered back in Nov or Dec, pre Rowling. I will read through and post comments, and yes, am familiar w/ the material, but not offering to do any heavy lifting. I'm following, so no need to ping now that I've put this page on watch. Thanks for getting me here with the ping earlier today. Victoria (tk) 03:05, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping, Sandy—I've got this watchlisted now, and I'll try to leave a review once Buidhe is satisfied with everything. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Extraordinary Writ now would be an optimal time; I have pinged buidhe several times in the last ten days, and there was no new feedback in today's response. Best I can tell, everything raised has been addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any further comments at this point. (t · c) buidhe 15:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Buidhe I believe all your comments have been addressed; could you please revisit? One footnote was kept, but reworked, per feedback from three editors who thought it should be retained. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Victoria

With her permission (see her talk page), moved this section of resolved issues to the talk page, at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive2#Comments from Victoria. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from EW[edit]

This seems to be in good shape now—impressive work! Just a few comments from a non-expert; feel free to ignore anything that isn't helpful.

  • Thank you for taking a look at it!

More soon. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added four Taylor (2009) citations (five total). Two to complement Warner one to clarify Joan's brothers and sisters. I would have put more, but I mainly rely on sources that can be verified by a direct link, and prefer available full sources to partial ones. Taylor's book is only available as a preview in a Google eBook, so it was more limited. I did use Taylor's (2012) article four times, which is available for those who have JSTOR access. I think it catches two of Taylor's major points: That Joan's execution was military/political and that Joan did not "exhibit the attributes of a saint in her lifetime" (p. 240). I also find Taylor's thesis that Joan was coached during her trial very intriguing! Harrison implies she may have been coached by Yolanda of Aragon. Both are possible. If either has a basis beyond conjecture, it's a further testament to Joan: she's a quick study! Wtfiv (talk) 05:23, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looking good. I might have a few more nitpicks on the references today or tomorrow, but otherwise I'm pretty much satisfied. Cheers, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wtfiv there is no indication if EW's comments above have been addressed ... ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like they were missed; I did two of them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I missed these. I'll get on them. Wtfiv (talk) 01:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Extraordinary Writ, I apologize for missing your second round of comments. Please let me know if these address your points. Wtfiv (talk) 05:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm now going through the references with a fine-toothed comb; made a few changes; just a few points so far:

  • Fixed (this diff addresses all source fixes)
  • Fixed Wtfiv (talk) 02:35, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lace swapped out for Aberth. Context of War expanded. Added Perroy as French take on same event. Considered adding Curry (1993), but summary spanned pages. Wtfiv (talk) 02:35, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Matheson deleted in source. Converted to Maddox in text.
  • Yes, added Wtfiv (talk) 02:35, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More soon (hopefully later tonight). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:36, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Almost there! Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:02, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All changes made. Wtfiv (talk) 04:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All my points have been addressed, so this is a keep from me: the article is now comprehensive, scrupulously sourced, balanced, and otherwise in line with the criteria. The improvement relative to the pre-FAR version is truly remarkable—thank you, Wtfiv, for your perseverance! Best regards, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:21, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Extraordinary Writ, for your extraordinary help! Wtfiv (talk) 06:25, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from BR[edit]

Wow, what a mountain of collaboration! Well done, to all who have worked to save this FA! I was invited to contribute comments, so I'll at least pitch in some copyediting sorts.

  • John reworked the "politically motivated" clause. And I've moved the "rejoicing" to be the first sentence of the final paragraph of her capture, which should make this portion of the trial a bit more clear.
  • Built a constrast transition, as follows: All but 8 of the 131 clergy who participated in the trial were French and two thirds were were associated with the University of Paris, but most were pro-Burgundian and pro-English. Wtfiv (talk) 01:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reworded sentences as follows Joan's visions played an important role in her condemnation, and her admission that she had returned to heeding them led to her execution.
  • John has been doing a great job weeding those out. But we'll keep weeding.

Those are the main things that stand out to me! Keep up the great work! -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 22:19, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for taking a look at the article! Wtfiv (talk) 01:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great work! -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 03:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Update on status[edit]

As John is approaching the end of his copyedit, and Victoriaearle's substantive suggestions have been addressed, I am near to a Keep declaration. Victoria is sidelined now for health reasons, and Ceoil is traveling. Where do others stand?

  • As you can imagine, I am busy on-wiki at the moment. Since there are editors underneath this comment who are going to take a look at this, I will revisit after their reviews are concluded. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have some thoughts by Sunday. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firefangledfeathers, it's Sunday ... I'm at Keep unless you have concerns; waiting :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:46, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reminder SG! I didn't get all the way through, but my first comments are below. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:35, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your work on the article, for coordinating this, and for making me feel so valued and welcome here. I wonder if it's worth having a further discussion on images? I was aware of some discussion earlier about which images to use, and I notice that the displayed images are currently all different sizes and that some are commented out. I'm not convinced the images are in a fully finalised state yet, and I suggest that the other aspects of the article are pretty much sorted so maybe the time is now ripe for this discussion. I don't think this on its own would make me declare to delist, but I think I'd like to see this discussion before declaring for keep. If this has already happened and I missed it, I apologise. John (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think Johnbod also had something to say on images; maybe we could conduct that discussion at the article talk page, so we could begin to focus here on what remains to get this FAR closed up? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:53, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
PS, John, glad you feel welcome, but be careful what you wish for :) :) There's another tricky FAR up that could really use the skills you have shown here! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to swing by over the weekend. John is right; the image issue isn't fully resolved. But we can continue on the talk page. Victoria (tk) 19:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty happy with the mix, and I think it looks pretty good for now. I have no preference on the miniatures, but I'd like to keep some of the more contemporary images. (See my note on two philosophies of images above)
  • But would like to see "Joan in Orleans" stay on. IMO, it clinches the center of action.
  • I think the Joan on trial illustration is excellent for crafting the flavor of her trial, though I admit is is a bit small if it isn't clicked on. But I think that is a picture, which if looked at, accurately backs up so much of the narrative. And I like a Joan being center stage, as it is her article. So, I'd like to keep it, if we can.
  • I like the images for Clothing and Legacy.
That said, wherever the consensus goes, so I'll go. I don't want approval of images to get in the way of the FAR process. Wtfiv (talk) 01:06, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from FFF[edit]

I'm not familiar with prior discussion on this, so some of these items might be the result of discussion or consensus. No individual comment is a make-or-break issue for me.

I left some more notes at work that I need to rescue. More to come. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:35, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More notes:

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:08, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Remove away, what unhelpful info to highlight ... but some infobox warrior will come along and repopulate that crap ... you know, if we have an infobox parameter, we must fill it, right? :/ :/ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:40, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right? You have me laughing! If she is beatified by the Roman Catholic Church, one would assume that Rome is the default location. Wtfiv (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, first the location (ridiculously unhelpful) was in the infobox, so we had to cite it. Then the location was added to the body because it was in the infobox. Should be removed entirely, obvious and trivia, but infobox idiocy is neverending. It will probably just come back. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The call to get the citation out of the dreaded infobox- that endless source of uncited abuse, particularly for Joan- was good, but now unneeded; now gone. Wtfiv (talk) 02:41, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have some more comments:

Thanks for walking me through this. Can you help me reconcile your statements here with the article language from §Clothing, where we say "Her final condemnation began when she was found to have resumed wearing men's clothes, which was taken as a sign that she had relapsed by obeying her visions again." We cite Hotchkiss, which doesn't really support the content, and Schibanhoff, which does say "Joan's voices instructed her to resume male attire". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firefangledfeathers, I appreciate your comments, and in particular the careful thinking through of all this (And it had me correcting a page number.) It makes it clear it's not precise enough. And I particularly enjoy thinking through content (cite-source integrity) as opposed to format.
Hotchkiss p. 66 (corrected citation) states "Despite her ambivalence toward male dress in her final hours, Jeanne's return to transvestism after the abjuration gave the judges the visible proof they need to declare her a relapsed heretic. Schibanoff, p. 38 states "she wa observed to have resumed male attire in her prison cell... Joan had visibly performed her idolatry. As her inquisitors probed more deeply the extent of the relapse, they soon uncovered evidence of the invisible partner...her claim that the voices of St. Catherine and St. Margaret. [Aside, note Schibanoff's skepticism of the saints as well, the partner (singular) is her claim of voices.] So, to be more precise on this point, I rewrote the last line, which aligns with both citations: relapsed into heresy
This edit makes the role of the voices in the final condemnation properly equivocal, which may solve the problem.
Slightly more problematic is Schibanoff's claim that Joan's voices also instructed her to wear male clothing. This source seems to contradict the consensus of the secondary sources in the "Execution" section that the assessors or Joan did not directly assert that the voices commanded her to wear men's clothes at this time.(See the translation of the proceedings in Hobbins's 2005 pp. 196-198), so I think Schibanhoff may be backreading some testimony mentioned during the regular trial. The articles of accusation do make the accusation that she claims to be wearing men's clothes at the command of God.
Sharing a WP:OR thought. In terms of the abjuration, it makes sense for the assessors to to keep them separate, as it indicts her on two counts: as "her choice" to wear men's clothes paints her as willfully defying the church militant; "her listening" to the voices show that she is still under non-divine influence. But as mentioned, such an argument slides into WP:OR, so I'll avoid it. Readers can draw that out for themselves, if they see it.
What are your thoughts?
Wtfiv (talk) 06:19, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit definitely resolves my concern. Thanks a lot! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Firefangledfeathers Thank you for going through the sources in a way that is thorough, while being helpful in cleaning up those that were problematic. I know there's an ongoing discussion, but do you have other concerns you'd like me to address, or is the article about ready for a "keep"? Let me know, and again thank you for the positive and collaborative feedback! Wtfiv (talk) 15:17, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have been (quite unhappily) entertained elsewhere, dealing with COI/paid editing in medical content, and have not been able to keep up here. When/if we reach the point where everyone is satisfied again, pls ping me to re-evaluate my keep. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome! Thanks for the prompt responses. I haven't finished my source review yet. Though most of the issues have been minor, there have been enough of them that a more widespread review might be worthwhile. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have no doubt that there are still link errors. And I'm sure there's more room to debate sources or cite-text matching. I love the idea of live links, it allows everyone to participate in the review process, but it does multiply errors and allow multiple challenges to source interpretation as every editor has access to the majority of the sources. I welcome anybody who wants to do a source review, as long as they will quietly correct the issues that are correctable, such as Firefangledfeather has done. Wtfiv (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Having finished the 36 sources, I'm feeling good about the sourcing and citations. Only lingering issues are:
  • Citation 16, "peasant farmer". Vale says "daughter, not of a peasant" and Devries uses "laborers" and "farmers". I know this was discussed before, but if there aren't sources that explicitly use "peasant", I'd go for something like "farmer".
  • Replaced DeVries and Vale with Gies, who states peasant on the first page. Wtfiv (talk) 16:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Citation 294, "by the end of her canonization trial in 1903, her visions were seen as part of that mission". Kelly doesn't support this, at least not near the cited pages. I'm missing oodles of context when it comes to Catholic canonization proceedings, so I might have missed something. The bit about Leo is fine but it's on 222.
  • Updated page number. Deleted point. Left it with her mission was determined to be divine. The status of Joan's voices remain open, even within hte church.
I don't plan on doing anymore. I really mean this: it was a joy to work with such accessible and accessibly-formatted citations. Wftiv, my sincere congratulations and gratitude. It would be very helpful to me if you (or anyone) could tell me who else to thank for the effort that went into this. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's so thoughtful, Firefanglefeathers, I'd say right now, as we may be approaching the FARC finish line, SandyGeorgia and her incredible skills at cooking up an amazing stone soup deserves much credit, and whose willingness to really go through the sources and debate the nuancing of the wording when the article was stuck at an impasse was critical. John's kind and insightful editing has cleaned up a myriad of infelicities and help create an article whose prose is looking quite strong. There are always those Wikignomes, whose subtle touches have quietly cleaned things up (such as fixing different article and then updating the link here to make the it more helpful and precise.) And finally, all the reviewers of course: particularly, those of you who I felt were supporting the article through your collaborative editing: you, Extraordinary Writ, Victoria. Z1920 earlier review pointed toward the hope that this article was salvagable. And there's Aza24, whose quiet reassurance kept me going when I wanted to throw in the towel. (I had no idea what I was getting into when I started.) All of this seems a bit premature, as it looks like there is a bit more work to do (though at least if feel close to closing), but my sense of gratitude is felt now and sincere, and I'm glad you asked. Wtfiv (talk) 16:17, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A much more thorough response than I expected. I should have specified I meant "effort that went into the fully linked citations"! Thanks for the history. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:16, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure the fully linked citations is a Wtfiv specialty. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Further issues: Visions, Prophecies, and Sources[edit]

Victoria I've pulled out recent concerns you've raised that led to the temporary striking of the "keep", and moved them to a new section so we can track them amidst the crazy threading. (The "reply" is bouncing a lot of them.) This will allow us to ensure that the concerns are not scattered throughout FFF and the keep discussion. The very first statement was pulled from an ongoing thread. Sandy, I'm checking with you to make sure I haven't broken some rule of archive integrity. Please revert if I have. I'm wondering if this shouldn't be move to the talk page?

Visions

These sentences are now quite awkward ("Joan's visions have been speculated to be a product of creative psychopathy induced by her early childhood rearing;[301] and the visions' specific details to have been created by the demands of the interrogators at her trial.[302]". There's no way of knowing and since the people who had her put to death for having visions kept the record it's even murkier. Perhaps recast as something like "The various explanations for Joan's visions include psychopathy induced by her early childhood rearing." Likewise the bit re interrogators needs recasting. Do scholars believe she embellished to please the interrogators or that the trial record imbellishes? Victoria (tk) 00:31, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I like the recast, though AFAIK we need to keep the "creative" in "creative pyschopathy". My quick skim of the citations for the interrogators bit suggests they're theorizing she embellished at the prompting of the assessors. I could take a stab at some language if Wtfiv doesn't get to it first. I think separating this bit from the medical/psychological theories is sensible. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:07, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wftiv: is this thread on your radar? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firefangledfeathers Thanks for the ping. As you can tell, I'm a bit overwhelmed with the complexity of the conversation, but it remains interesting and I want to make sure I'm not ignoring anything. Please recast. I agree that the "creative" in psychopathy has to be kept, as Henderson's point is that this is a special kind of coping, and a different expression that what we typically think of as "psychopathy", though it is related to his study of children and psychopathology. I think separating out the two could be fine.
Victoria I think some of my comments are lost in the threading too. A look at the links will show that each are implying that Joan embellished based on the demand characteristics of the interrogation itself, in the sense of reconstructive memory or false memories. Sullivan in particular, who did an in-depth scholarly review of Joan's responses to the interrogator gives the best responses. It's interesting in that each of these authors seem to agree, but come at it slightly differently. Wtfiv (talk) 03:36, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firefangledfeathers, the rewrite looks good. It feels cleaner. Wtfiv (talk) 04:47, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Prophecies
It was actually Armagnac if I remember correctly and certainly pro-dauphin/Charles (VII) propaganda. But that's beside the point here to an extent. The point we need to get correct is this: Our article says "During Joan's youth, there were two prophecies circulating in the French countryside. One promised that a maid from the borderlands of Lorraine would come forth to work miracles, and the other was that France had been lost by a woman, but would be restored by a virgin.[59][d]". Fraioli says "There were in the time two prophecies in circulation that may have predisposed Joan or her potential supporters in her favor. The first promised that a maid would come from the Lorraine borderland 'who would work miracles'. The second, according the Joan's relative Durand Laxalt she herself used to convince him to take her to the dauphin". The second one purportedly is the one about (paraphrasing) "France lost by a woman, saved by a virgin" doesn't seem to exist before Joan mentions it.[6] Tracy Adams says on p. 47 that an "explicit example" of the prophecy cannot be tracked down. (Sorry, no link, the book is next to my laptop). That's what the note should emphasize. Unfortunately I misread it earlier. Victoria (tk) 01:01, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to blur Valois/Armagnac, which is sloppy, due to my "Joan" lens in this article. After all the Armagnac, like the Burgundians, would ally with wherever the power gain was. Though the Armagnac pretty much stuck with Charles after Joan. Anyway, the "virgin" myth issue is addressed below. Wtfiv (talk) 02:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to keep talking this through, but I do think Wtfiv's "possible solution", already implemented, is an improvement. Enough of one that it's not a FA-stopper for me. Link to Adams for anyone else following this. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's no doubt it refers to Isabeau. The point is that Joan seems be the only person to have heard of that specific "prophecy" about a virgin saving France. It would be nice if there could be consistency between the two articles. But I'm too tired at this point to care. Victoria (tk) 01:25, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry! As I read Adams p. 47, she seems to be saying that the prophecy did exist before Joan, or the Treaty of Troyes. The thing she seems to be doubting is specifically whether its a reference to Isabeau, or whether it would have been seen that way by 15th century French people, including Joan. Am I misreading? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:37, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm the person misreading - hadn't noted the page range. Page 47, beneath the section header, 2nd para: "However a specific example cannot be tracked down". Then an explanation (repeating myself from above) that that specific prophecy can only be traced to Joan herself. The subsequent pages explain the evolution of the prophecy in the next few sentences, question whether Isabeau is meant, and on page 49 the section ends with "...that Isabeau was commonly slotted into the prophecy is not supported by the evidence". In that case it's probably ok. I'll change the page range on the Isabeau article. Btw - I commented re visions above but didn't ping. Not sure if anyone noticed. Victoria (tk) 01:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • It sounds like the solution will work?
  • Joan's reference to a virgin saving France is sourced to the "Merlin prophecies". I think Warner, 1981, p. 25 does the finest job of summarizing. Barstow, 1986, p. 48 mentions it in passing too. Gies, 1981 p. 31 and Harrison, 2014 p. 7 gives a larger context. I like Harrison's description in terms of addressing in terms of the misogyny of the time, though she does not mention the critical idea of "virgin". (It just struck me that Taylor, 2009 may have something more to add Taylor's elaboration focuses on Marie Robine of Avignon [fr].) This conversation opens up further role of women's voice at this time, which is fascinating.. But all of this amplifies beyond the scope of this article, I think, which sets up the the "woman" for a contrast to the "virgin" or "pucelle".
Wtfiv (talk) 02:07, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Victoria Firefangledfeathers, Reworking prophecies a bit more to achieve a version satisfactory to all. This nuances the prophecies floating about: The Merlin Prophecies and Marie Robine. Then mentioning Joan sharing a saying (sources support this wording). No implications of a larger sense in the culture, given lack of evidence. Footnote still present, but just addressing the word "woman". Here's the text sans citations: During Joan's youth, there were prophecies circulating in the French countryside that promised a maiden from the borderlands of Lorraine would come forth to work miracles, and that an armed maiden would come to save France. Joan implied she was this promised maiden, reminding the people around her that there was a saying that France would be destroyed by a woman but would be restored by a virgin. Footnote is same as before with change to first words: The woman is thought to be...
Does this work? Wtfiv (talk) 08:11, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's better to pin to a particular prophecy. It's better to pin to Marie Robine of Avignon's prophecy, who met w/ Charles VI and and "told him [Charles VI] that the realm of France would suffer greatly and sustain numerous calamaties ... In particular she saw large plates of armor presented to her. She was terror-stricken, fearing she would be forced to wear armor herself, but was told not to be afraid, that she would not carry weapons. But after her there would come a maiden would be armed and deliver France from its enemies."[7] I don't think this quite matches w/ what our text says about "a maiden from the borderlands of Lorraine" (cited to Fraioli, but I can't see her note. We absolutely should not use Harrison. She's a novelist, not a historian and her book is not what I consider the best scholarly source. Since there are many sources available, we do need to be using the best.
As for the note, it's changed a few times in the last few days. The current version reads, "The woman in this saying is assumed to refer to Isabeau of Bavaria,[62] who signed the treaty of Troyes, but it is unclear if it originally did" >> this implies that it does now refer to Isabeau, whereas it didn't during Joan's time, which doesn't really make sense. The better version is this this one, saying "The prophecy is assumed to refer to Isabeau, who signed the treaty of Troyes, but the evidence that it does is not clear." Victoria (tk) 18:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Some historians write that the prophecy referred to Isabeau, who signed the treaty of Troyes.[bunch of citations] Other historians say the evidence is not clear.[Adams + anyone else]"? Based solely on Adams, I'm discomfited at the idea of presenting a bunch of historians' work as assumptions and then presenting Adams' analysis of the evidence as the wiki-voice truth. I am speaking from a position of ignorance here, and I'm very willing to hear that a major historiographical shift has happened such that everyone now agrees the evidence is lacking. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firefangledfeathers This article had lots of "historians debate" footnotes, and FARC reviewers dinged it for too many footnotes and asides. My thought is to keep the historians in the background, if we can. Victoria has stated she's willing to let it go, and the way it is written catches the inconclusive nature of the assumption, so I think we are set.
I'm inclined to give this one up. Adams doesn't deny that historians believe it refers to Isabeau, she simply casts doubt as to whether they did at the time. Either I'm not explaining well, it's too nuanced, or, frankly, who cares? Victoria (tk) 19:03, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firefangledfeathers and Wtfiv I edited the note. We should just let this go. Victoria (tk) 20:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for editing it, Victoria! Wtfiv (talk) 21:01, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firefangledfeathers see above; I removed it. The ping to you didn't go through. Victoria (tk) 20:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Victoriaearle Thank you for the simplifying edit, but I think a clause with Adam's qualification that it is uncertain is warranted. Are you okay with adding it back? Wtfiv (talk) 01:08, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Victoria. Please take a look at this rewrite, and let me know what you think. Here's the summary:
  • Two prophecies, one from Robin Marine; the other from Merlin. Both are explicitley mentioned, some of these sources have quotes or point toward primary sources.
  • Removed reference to "Lorraine". Even Fraioli (2005) references it. But she, like all the other sources, do not point toward a primary source that I could find in any of the one's I'm aware of.
  • I returned the caveat about the reference refering to Isabeau. I put back Adams, but found an ally in Fraioli (2000), who gently expresses doubt. So both are now citations in the footnote.
  • Joan's version is not given any significance beyond her citing it to justify her calling. (Though I'd be willing to believe it is part of oral history.)
  • I kept Harrison, but she's not stand alone. I think this is my philosophy of reference. I think the authors often couch things in ways that the academics do not. They also raise provocative issues. But I don't cite them alone. What I like about Harrison (and Sackville-West, for similar reasons) is the claims I quote almost always come accompanied with a source. Harrison's citations are at the back of the book, so as not to interrupt flow, but they are there and I look at them. In this case, she's pointing toward's Craig Taylor Joan sourcebook. If Harrison is seen to compromise the argument, please delete. Are we close? Or, fingers crossed, have we arrived at solution that comes close to addressing the concerns raised?
Wtfiv (talk) 02:54, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This version (permalink) is close, for me. I can't speak for Victoria, but I see her last couple of comments as signaling strong desire to stop engaging on this issue, at least for now. What gripes and grumbles I have are not enough to keep from a 'keep'. I'm a bit of princess, but I can't feel the pea under this many mattresses. I would be amenable to further discussion at the talk page in a few weeks or so, and I hope V could join. In the meantime, if anyone knows of other sources holding something similar to the Adams/Fraioli view, please let me know. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do apologize Victoria, if I didn't respect that you were done with this. I just want to make sure that a concern got addressed that I felt still had not been adequately acknowledged. I'd like the final article to adequately reflect your concern. If my continuing to think about this is just bothersome, please revert the wording to a previous stopping point or correct, and we'll call it day for now. Wtfiv (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wftiv, I really need to be offline for a few days, but it's best to button things up so Nikkimaria knows what's what. What you've done here is fine, if I'm following correctly. I'll probably spin it out a bit in the Isabeau page as well so as to make a better match between the two articles. Victoria (tk) 23:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sources

Nikkimaria I went off to deal with paid editing for three days, and lost the plot here, but I see six seven keeps scattered throughout the page. It looks like FFF is now satisfied, and Victoriaearle has reinstated her keep. But it's a mess up there ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Seven: Z1720, Extraordinary writ, Victoria (?), SG, Aza24, John, Firefangledfeathers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:50, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Victoria, it's hard to tell ... are you yet satisfied? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know whodunnit, but the way the medical ended up in the Visions section is excellent! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:46, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All credit for that last edit goes to Firefangledfeathers. Wtfiv (talk) 06:05, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Updated citations in visions as proposed solution to reference ambiguity. Each citation now goes to an explicitly noted and linked page or abstract. Wtfiv (talk) 19:22, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, my comments have been split away from the keep and I've given up trying to follow or to fix. I still have some issues with Harrison but will bring it up on article talk page when I can. 17:05, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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