The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was: This one is one of the most complex MFDs that I've seen or closed in my almost three years in this project. I did a full evauation of each of the comments made in both here and the AN/I comment. I just couldn't read consensus for most of this debate. Alot of moot votes in both sides of the debate, many WP:ILIKEIT, and the comments to comparing this to myspace and calling it "useless rubbish" is plain WP:IDONTLIKEIT so they cancel each other out. WP:NOT#MYSPACE was created for editors not to abuse the website by chatting and avoiding any types of mainspace contributions. Here with some of the secret pages, it doesn't seem to be the case. Those secret pages aren't chat rooms, just promoting a little fun with a barnstar. In my opinion it's plain silly, but policies trump personal opinions, and there is no clear policy that prohibits this thing. Many of the users here are long standing users with many namespace edits looking to build community interaction. Other comments that were valid included a selective delete of the worst of the violations, but that is what mass MFDs of many pages aren't for. I'm deleting the fake secret pages, as consenus was formed here, and the rest of those pages should be on a case on case basis. Note this is not a keep result. Secret account 21:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Secret" pages

PLEASE NOTE: Only actual "secret" pages are under discussion. The list of secret pages was automatically generated and may be inaccurate.
Pages that don't actually fit the description of "secret pages" are not in danger of being deleted.
ALSO NOTE: This is not an April Fool's Day joke. This is a real nomination that will result in very real deletions, if that is the consensus.

Per the conversation at ANI, since it seems all "secret" userspace pages have been nominated for deletion there, I feel that as a deletion discussion it should take place here. If possible I'd also like to notify all the users whose pages would be affected, but the list is so large that I'm not sure how that would be possible.

Many users feel that so-called "secret" user pages are a waste of resources and editing time. Furthermore, WP:NOT#MYSPACE seems to prohibit such pages. They should therefore be deleted.

The list of pages up for deletion is here. Other pages may be deleted as well, if more such "secret" pages are found. Equazcion •✗/C • 06:07, 1 Apr 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: I've attempted to tag all pages that would be affected by the outcome of this discussion. There are over 160 such pages though, and the list I'm working off of was automatically generated based on a title search. I was therefore working very quickly and may have tagged pages that were in the list erroneously, or conversely I may have left out pages that the generated list didn't catch. My apologies in either case. Equazcion •✗/C • 06:51, 1 Apr 2008 (UTC)

That's because we have a community. We've got silly stuff like "Secret Pages" (which aren't at all secret due to Special:PrefixIndex), we've got pointless userboxes, categories, templates, essays, and all sorts of really extraneous stuff. Why? Because people like it, and because pointless barnstars are gateway drugs to actual barnstars. Personally, I learned how to find secret pages by wondering "how do you find secret pages" and then discovering Special:PrefixIndex.
If something needs to be deleted because it's abusive, inflammatory, disharmonious to editing, or is overly resource consumptive, then mfd it. Otherwise, I'm of the belief that we should simply leave people to their own devices, instead of saying that we simply "don't like it because it's silly, so delete it." Of course, I could just be crazy, so feel free to ignore me :P --slakr\ talk / 06:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Um, Orderinchaos voiced his support for deletion. MBisanz talk 17:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you please avoid putting ugly unnecessary formatting in votes, especially using deprecated tags? Ugly sigs are bad enough. User pages can serve a use - they allow people to know if a user is active, for example. Userboxes /may/ help as they can allow people to find people with relevant interests (although personally I'm opposed to them). These pages don't help the encyclopedia at all. -Halo (talk) 04:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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  • Those are all excellent points, Walton. I haven't yet seen a single good reason for deleting in any one of these comments. It's not reasonable to assume that time not spent on secret pages will be time spent editing productively. It is certainly not reasonable to think that 200 pages (rounding up) is any kind of drain on a datacenter, in terms of bandwidth, space, or processing time, etc. Even 2,000 pages wouldn't be any kind of significant drain. And oh yeah, we're not supposed to be worrying about that anyway. There's also no reason to think these pages take up all that much time. If they were complex games that involved finding multiple pages, then I'd say that's something to get concerned over -- Wikipedia isn't your personal webspace. But having one "secret" page people can try to find does no harm in any conceivable way, as far as the comments I've read here thus far. Equazcion •✗/C • 18:41, 1 Apr 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Yes, Editors matter. I'm not disputing that. I am, however, disputing that essay - it's not saying "editors matter" at all! It's saying "avoid annoying people lest you offend people who might leave". That's "editors matter more than the encyclopedia" in my eyes, which is fundamentally a bad idea. The problem is if you try and object to an essay entitled "Editors matter" it makes you sound evil, but that's just because of how the essay has been framed to paint those who disagree with its principles as people who think "editors don't matter" - it's clever rhetoric, but that doesn't make it right.
  • We need to put limits on things that are appropriate and inappropriate. We have done this since the beginning. WP:MYSPACE is policy, afterall. We have notability standards. These things should and do extend to user space. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. If people aren't willing to obey by the rules and understand what Wikipedia fundamentally is and isn't, they don't belong here.
  • But someone might leave because their secret page is deleted. Equally, should we not delete someone's pet article lest we offend someone? Should we let people use Wikipedia's web servers as a web host because, hey, it's only a tiny fraction of Wikipedia's bandwidth, and besides, they might not contribute otherwise? Hey, why not let people add friends lists? That'll help people co-operate! What about blogs? Or even chat? Why not let people create games? Hell, if people spend more time on the site, they're bound to contribute. But then we have MySpace and loads of bandwidth and space wasted on the site. It's one hell of a slippery slope, and completely ignored by "Editors matter".
  • The existence of these pages fundamentally dilutes the encyclopedia. Every time you allow a page like this, you move Wikipedia away from its goals and towards the jokey nonsense served by MySpace and its ilk. Wikipedia should minimise the useless crap that exists to ensure the project stays on track towards its goals. -Halo (talk) 04:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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  • A secret page is a user subpage, like "User:Example/Secret page". A user creates a page like that and challenges others to find it. He of course doesn't give them the title. The secret page usually has a message like "Yay you found my secret page", and often has a barnstar and/or a signature list, where users who find the page can reward themselves for finding the page, and sign the list. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:49, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
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  • Simplify the equation. Imagine we only had 100 editors, 99 with a single-minded focus on writing an encyclopedia, and one who wanted to spend three quarters of his time making secret pages, creating cabals, doing quizzes, writing humorous essays, and generally dicking around doing nothing much. Imagine that this user was very popular and everyone was very happy to be distracted by his time-wasting efforts. Or, if you prefer, imagine that everyone else considered him to be a pain in the butt, and his edits to be nothing more than RC noise. Either way, the goal of writing an encyclopedia would be best served by erasing this user and his edits, leaving a single-minded goal-driven community of 99. Focus is important.
  • So delete the secret pages; delete the cabals; delete the quizzes even. The people who will leave over these deletions are the people who weren't here to build the encyclopedia in the first place, and are so little interested in doing so that they can't abide staying here without other stuff to keep them entertained. And what remains afterwards?: a community of single-minded encyclopedia-builders. A super outcome. Hesperian 02:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, but what evidence is there that everyone who creates secret pages is doing that for 75% of their time editing? Are you saying you've never done anything that wasn't "encyclopedic"? Ever read a humorous essay? Couldn't that time have been spent contributing to articles? And why shouldn't anyone accuse you the way you have others, of that being your primary concern on Wikipedia? Why shouldn't they make a sweeping generalization of hundreds of users who include you, saying that all of you engage in an activity most of their time just because they see you do it part of the time? Equazcion •✗/C • 02:42, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • By all means, go ahead and accuse me of having various time-wasting pursuits as my primary concern here. The proof will be in the pudding. Once we've deleted all this crap, will I stay or will I go? Hesperian 03:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • To put this another way, if you're here to build the encyclopedia, and you spend most of your time doing so, and you also have a secret page, and it gets deleted, you're going to say "Hey! You bastards deleted my secret page" and then you're going to get back to building the encyclopedia. The editor who is here to build the encyclopedia, but will quit over the deletion of a secret page, is a myth. Hesperian 03:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry to burst your bubble, but if my secret page was deleted, I would leave. The mere thought that someone would be allowed to delete a page in my userspace simply because they want me to spend my time on something that they, not I, deem to be more appropriate is enough for me to not want to be involved in this project anymore. aliasd·U·T 14:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see what people's reactions after the deletion have anything to do with whether or not the pages will be deleted. I'm sure even if you deleted people's entire userspace, the productive editors who have "the right motivation" in mind will still stay. Does that mean we should do it? Equazcion •✗/C • 03:18, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • Not necessarily. That's just not my argument. I'm just saying there's no good reason to delete the pages. The consequences of such a deletion is not my concern. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:27, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not necessarily saying nothing bad would happen as a result, but for the sake of argument, if we assume any consequence of this action wouldn't be negative, that's still no reason to do it. Just because something wouldn't have a bad effect doesn't mean we should do it. If you want to delete something you need a good positive reason to do it. So far I don't see a reason. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:33, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • That's not what I meant, Caissa. Please be so kind as to let me speak for myself, rather than building yourself a straw man on the back of my comment. Hesperian 02:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can imagine what he means, but he doesn't actually make any argument. Walton's rationale already countered the "focus" argument. So I was looking for a bit more elaboration than the seven words he thought was an answer to everything Walton said. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:32, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • Walton has argued that deleting the secret pages of users X, Y and Z will not make users X, Y and Z more productive. I agree with that. I argue that the secret pages of X, Y or Z will make the rest of the community (after X, Y and Z have quit or reoriented themselves towards the encyclopedia) more focussed, and therefore more productive. Hesperian 02:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree. I've been on Wikipedia for 15 months and have never once tried to find someone's secret page, despite having seen them advertised many times. People who want to participate in that kind of thing will do so, and it won't matter if secret pages are outlawed or not. They'll find some other thing to do that's silly. Those who don't see any value in that will have no problem avoiding it. I've certainly never had a problem there. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:50, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, people who want to participate in that kind of thing will do so regardless, I agree. But without an abiding interest in building an encyclopedia, they will have no particular attachment to this site, so if their efforts are deleted here, they will go elsewhere to do all the silly things they do. That's a win for Wikipedia.
  • There are plenty of good Wikipedians who maintain blogs. But they don't maintain them here, do they? When they want to build the encyclopedia, they come here. When they want to blog, they go to Blogger or whatnot. We should be applying the same rule to secret pages and autograph books and all the other social networking silliness that goes on. If you want to build the encyclopedia today, you go to Wikipedia; if you feel like social networking today, you go to MySpace, Facebook, whatever. The only people who would quit Wikipedia over such an eminently sensible policy, are people who weren't here to build the encyclopedia in the first place. Hesperian 03:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're basically saying that we should proceed with this deletion to get rid of editors you think don't possess the right motivation for being here. Of course I disagree. Among the many problem with that way of thinking, the primary one is that it doesn't necessarily follow that anyone who leaves following such a deletion wasn't here to be productive. They could just be pissed off that Wikipedia didn't appreciate their efforts enough to allow them this little bit of freedom. Also, this isn't a discussion to decide on the deletion of all non-encyclopedic userspace content, such as blogs etc. We're just talking about "secret pages" here, so that's all I'm defending. You're basically arguing against the editors matter concept in general, and that's really a larger issue than this. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:22, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • No, that's not basically what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should proceed with this deletion as part of a process towards refocussing this community towards building the encyclopedia. The result of this refocussing would be the departure of those who are not here to build the encyclopedia. That is an outcome but not the goal. Hesperian 03:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know, you've used that "focus" word before, but that's an abstract concept. You seemed to specify what it meant to you by saying "non-productive" people would leave, but now you're saying that's not the goal. What is the goal exactly, then? Equazcion •✗/C • 03:31, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • Ah, I had no idea. Now, what's the goal in advocating this deletion? How does it help build an encyclopedia? Equazcion •✗/C • 03:43, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • You know I've already answered that question, and expanded liberally when you asked for an explanation. The problem here is not that I haven't addressed these points, but that you disagree with me, so let's not start again from the beginning, okay? Hesperian 03:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I said "what do you mean by focus" and you went on to depict a situation where non-productive editors would leave. Then I said we probably shouldn't be using deletion as a tool to get rid of editors we don't see as being productive, to which you replied that's not the goal at all. So you really haven't said what the actual goal is, aside from "focus". I agree there should be a general focus on article work, but I fail to see how a tiny percentage of the user body each having a single "secret" page takes away from that focus. Again, anyone who would participate in it will find other silly things to participate in, and there's no reason to assume that silliness is all they're doing just because they have a secret page. I think you're making an unfair generalization. You seem to be saying that anyone who has a secret page is either a) not productive and would leave if their page were deleted, or b) is productive and would get angry at having their page deleted, but would stay nonetheless. I say there's no reason to make the B group angry -- just because they would stay doesn't mean pissing them off is okay. I'd also assert that there's a c) group too, who are productive and would leave if their pages were deleted, because such a deletion shows a lack of appreciation for their productive work. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:09, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • To address Hesperian's argument: I understand what you're saying, but I think you are stereotyping editors to an unrealistic degree. You talk as if there are two groups of editors: the productive and the unproductive, and that we might as well be rid of the unproductive editors. In reality, it is not black and white; as Equazcion has pointed out above, there are shades of grey. Most editors spend some of their time on "fun" stuff and some of their time on productive encyclopedic work; the percentage of each varies from editor to editor and from day to day. Even those who start out largely unproductive can often be persuaded to contribute in a more helpful way. Stereotyping people as either "productive" or "unproductive", and pursuing a course of action which risks driving many users away, is a monumental waste of our most important resource - contributors. WaltonOne 16:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think unproductive users are an important resource; in fact I don't think they are a resource at all. And like I said, editors who are here to build the encyclopedia aren't going to leave because their secret page got deleted. It ain't gonna happen. The only editors who would leave over the deletion of a secret page are the ones who weren't interested in building the encyclopedia in the first place.
    There seems to be an undercurrent that it is mean and nasty to doing anything that scares users away, even users that don't share our goals. That is not the case.
    Coming to Wikipedia to social network is like joining a book club to play the bongo drums. You want to play the bongo drums, that's fine; we wouldn't dream of denying you your musical expression. We don't have a problem with you or your drums. But this is a book club, and your bongo drumming doesn't belong here. Go play outside.
    Hesperian 00:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia isn't a book club. It's also not a paper encyclopedia. It's a website that provides userspace, has humor pages and april fools day pranks. You're making an argument about this fantasy site you've imagined, but it isn't Wikipedia. Our focus is articles, but we have fun too. That's just the reality of the situation. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:52, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • I didn't say that's how it could be defined. I said it's a site that provides userspace, and it is. I also said the focus is articles. If you've sunk to nitpicking your opponents' language then I think we're done here. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:17, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
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"The web is a very big place with literally thousands of venues for this kind of thing. A sense of community is great, and should be encouraged. On the other hand, there are entire sites devoted to social networking. Have some fun? Sure, absolutely. Waste time, energy, and resources for crap like this? No way."

There's also the fact that the whole point of "secret" pages is nullified by Special:Prefixindex... Black Falcon (Talk) 05:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Even so, people have fun. That's just like saying that radio call-in games are pointless because people can Google (or Yahoo, or Ask, etc. you get my point) the information and win prizes. So what? It doesn't matter. The radio games not there for the prizes, but for just having fun. That said, this is an encyclopedia. Even though this is an encyclopedia, user spaces were meant to have a little personal space on Wikipedia. Having secret pages, as it were, is not abusing the encyclopedia, because it really isn't a social networking thing. Go to MySpace, Facebook, or any other social networking site, and I guarantee you that you won't find a secret page. One of the reasons why I think it is so attractive (not as in pretty; the other one) here to many people is because it is user friendly. You can make your own page, and you can have somebody sign it without having to pay for extra stuff and whatnot. As someone said below me, it may seem a bit silly, but some people actually do use this encyclopedia as a knowledge database, and to reprimand those for something as trivial as this is ridiculous. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 08:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The difference is they are absolutely useless at creating an encyclopedia. If you're making a point about policy, working on a draft, or even have a userbox (as much as I loathe them) that could potentially be useful to create an encyclopedia. What use is a secret page? If someone thinking Wikipedia should be an encyclopedia and not a place for "fun" is a party pooper, well then I'm a party pooper since I don't believe this to be a "party". -Halo (talk) 03:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are they really absolutely useless? I would argue they're not. They are things that let people have fun. It's not necessarily like MySpace, because MySpace doesn't have this. So, in a nutshell, are all you people saying that Wikipedia is a place where no fun should take place and people should just edit pages, and all other stuff not necessarily constructive to the encyclopedia should be banned or deleted? Sounds a bit tyrannical to me. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 17:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment What? I am sorry but I see users who do amazing amounts of main and wiki space work and they have secret pages. The fact that a person has a secret page does not make them bad editors and does not affect their ability to edit and make articles. Those who do barely any or no main or wiki space works are those who are unable to either because they do not know what to do or they are to busy messing up the main or wiki space. Rgoodermote  17:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree this is a very unfair generalization. I've seen some very serious editors who also have secret pages. Just because you have low opinion of the activity, or because the people you happen to have seen with secret pages were not productive, does not mean that everyone with secret pages in unproductive. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:12, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • Changed to Strong Keep I put some more thought into it. A secret page is just for humor and humor is allowed on Userpages. But you know it has to do with. If you take this right away. What is to stop you from just taking away all of the userspace. Hell why not just you know, delete everyones userspace because it has irrelevant information on it. This is an utter waste of time and resources going about something that clearly does not violate policy and even if it did. It is still an utter waste of time bitching about pages you don't even see unless you are trying to find them. Most of them if not all of them have nothing but a couple words and a sign function ensure that you really found the page. What is so bad about that. It is not on the main or wiki space and again like I said. You need to be looking for them. So what is the worry about people getting the wrong idea. By opening up this discussion however gives people the wrong idea. This could ruin a lot of people and bring down morale. Leave it as it is and if this becomes a violation of policy a lot of people are going to be blocked and again...you need to be looking for the page to be able to block the person. I was also going to say something a long the ways of the user below..but he technically beat me. Rgoodermote  01:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've read and re-read, but don't see how the nominator broke WP:AGF - what part didn't he "assume good faith"? Particularly as something bad can be created with good faith in mind (not wishing to break Godwin's Law here). Evidence that something isn't an "excessive drain on the server" doesn't mean they should exist. It fundamentally breaks WP:NOT#WEBSPACE, which is policy and what people mean by a social network (i.e. doesn't help the encyclopedia). Although the list itself may be poor, I believe the principle of wishing to delete secret pages is quite obvious to all so I personally don't see that as an issue. -Halo (talk) 03:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found another 5 or so by clicking ~10 links. My point is that the method used to generate the list is so poor as to be useless. We are !voting on userspace articles that have nothing to do with what is described. Hobit (talk) 02:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • K then. WP:NOT is just a policy. Generally, quoting policies isn't the best way to argue, except when things are exceptionally clearcut and non-controversial. In a highly divided issue like this, everyone is forced to argue based on deeper reasoning, like how exactly the pages affect Wikipedia fundamentally. Wikipedia frowns on making big decisions based solely on the wording of a policy. They're not laws. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:09, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • I thought I was using slightly deeper reasoning. Rather than quoting that policy I was suggesting something else: it's hard to argue against something that everyone agrees is fun, so we need to consider what effect precedent might have. The "secret page" is an idea that some editors argue is "acceptable" fun in Wikipedia (yes, I've found a few secret pages too), but it won't be long before another idea emerges, and another, and so on. Where will the social network end and Wikipedia begin? There's enough interesting stuff to do in Wikipedia without weakening its focus. If I want to do other stuff, or interact in a completely social manner, then I have Myspace, Facebook, MSN, gmail, and a million other options. I come to Wikipedia to contribute to Wikipedia, and I go on Myspace or MSN to socialize with other Internet users. Wikipedia is a community with a scope. If you ignore the scope too much, you damage the community. --- Taroaldo (talk) 03:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • We could say the same thing about humor pages. But there's no evidence that they have or will cause "the myspace ideal" to "spread" into other areas. Similarly, let's not crystal ball this. You could take an alarmist attitude towards anything not purely encyclopedic. How bout custom signatures? Seems sort of myspace-ish to me, what with the level of unnecessary customizational fun it affords the user. Where oh where will it end? Well, we don't know, and we shouldn't pretend we can predict. There's always risk involved in allowing anything that isn't purely to do with articles. But we'll just have to wait and see, as with anything else. We can't get rid of something out of fear it might cause "trouble". Equazcion •✗/C • 03:50, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • I didn't mention the crystal ball because, as you said, simply quoting policies isn't the best way to argue this. In a "highly divided issue like this" it should not be considered unreasonable to think about the potential for future consequences, as part of our "deeper reasoning". I don't think anybody is suggesting that the pages be deleted out of fear that it might cause trouble. But failing to "think ahead" on an issue isn't always the best notion. --- Taroaldo (talk) 04:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mmmm okay, so not out of fear it might cause trouble. Then what, out of concern? Semantics. The point still stands. We're all thinking about the future, but there are some things that can't be predicted. Again, the same concern could be expressed over any of the less-serious aspects of the site. That doesn't mean we get rid of them just for the mere possibility. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:10, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) If we accept that we won't "get rid of" this issue, then which one will we decide to deal with? (It is certain there will be more.) Specific details of the future can't be predicted, but that does not mean that we shouldn't discuss reasonable possible outcomes. The question remains, "what do we want Wikipedia to be?" That can't be answered by only dealing with the 'here and now'. --- Taroaldo (talk) 04:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Evidently, whatever the future of Wikipedia is to be, it is to include non-serious elements. If you're suggestion that should change, then that's a larger issue outside the scope of this discussion. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:46, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • Regardless of the final outcome for secret pages, this user thinks Equazcion is a valuable resource to Wikipedia and prays the user known as Equazcion is never deleted. I also subscribe to "Limited accommodation of popularity." Master Redyva ♠ 19:25, April 5, 2008 (UTC)
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Exactly. This attitude towards people's secret pages is nosy, coercive, and totally uncalled for. If you don't like someone's secret page, then tell them on their talk page. If you hate secret pages in general, then just don't encounter them. Simple as that. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 04:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's harsh all right, but it's hardly a simplification. The pretexts under which these are supposedly deterimental to the project are transparently ridiculous. People waste time here on all sorts of things, including starting MfD pages like this, and participating in "projects", but it's only these harmless "secret pages" which are being labelled as disruptive. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 05:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad some people understand where I'm coming from. I am sorry if I'm coming off too harsh, but I am generally a blunt person who will speak his mind. If I offend some people in the process, I apologize. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 05:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obento has voted once, that I can see. Adding comments that start with a bold "Comment" is not a vote. People can add as many of those as they like. Equazcion •✗/C • 15:51, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  • He didn't vote above this comment. The only people who voted above in this section are Father Goose and Rocksanddirt. Obento only responded to them. Equazcion •✗/C • 16:40, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)
I was about to fix that when you edit conflicted me. My bad, apologies. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 16:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mm-hmm.... –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 17:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
lol, he voted in the section below and I stroked it [2] --Enric Naval (talk) 17:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, about a different topic, but that was my mistake, I guess. Just know that I'm in favor of keeping them; think of those strong keeps as one strong keep in two areas. If you can't, then you can merge them together or something. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 18:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure that they would become a huge hit if they were ever incorporated to MySpace, and that their server would crash on a short time because of having to handle so many secret pages --Enric Naval (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:MYSPACE? Wikipedia is not for "fun" social networking activities (i.e. "You found my secret page! Sign my guestbook! YAY"), and is not a web host for things completely irrelevant to the encyclopedia -Halo (talk)
So what if we wikified it in some way? Then it would be relevant to the encyclopedia, and it wouldn't fall under that category. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 17:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the way went through and removed MfD templates from pages that were clearly not secret pages. It would be nice if the bot that went through and found these warned the users. Rgoodermote  20:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was not notified that a page in my userspace was taged MfD. BAD FORM.
  • I really really really do not mean this as a threat, but if this page in my userspace is deleted, that would clinch it for me as far as working on this project is concerned. I am a volunteer and I feel that for the most part, how I interact with other volunteers is my business, as long as it is is not hurting anyone with slander/harassment etc.
  • To the people that really honestly believe that this page should be deleted because it is distracting my time from the project, you do NOT own/manage my time, I do.
  • Wikilove, hugs, smile. I think WP:CARE kinda says it very well here.

-aliasd·U·T 13:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: User: contribs form just under 12% of my total contributions, and have mostly been directly encyclopedia/project related. aliasd·U·T 14:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
break 10
Lies! Cats are safe on wikipedia. The cabal didn't dare killing the rollback lolcat because of obvious popularity among users, notice that all participants on that conversation are now admins, and they won't dare touch any lolcat. It's a widely know secret that any admin proposing a lolcat for deletion riskes desysoping and getting called an unfunny person :D Consensus is currently in favour of lolcats and not going to change soon. Secret pages, however, have gone somewhat out of fashion and are at a low point on the consensus thing... --Enric Naval (talk) 16:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That logic is faulty, but I like lolcats too, so... –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 16:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well said! -- Ned Scott 23:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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  • Can I respond to this (and keep in mind, I think the secret pages should be kept, as I !voted above). The basic difference, Equazcion, is that some user space "contributions" help build an encyclopedia. Some dont'. BRC helps build an encyclopedia. Some secret pages are good fun. Some secret pages are the only contribs from certain users, making en-wik a social playground instead of a a respite from article building. That's the basic difference, as L-Love stated above. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think Lara stated that above at all, but thank you for that constructive response, Keeper. I realize some secret pages (and other frivolities) are the only contribs by some users, but of course, some secret pages aren't up for deletion. The very concept of secret pages is basically up for banning. If BRC happens to be something that looks silly but is made by people dedicated to the encyclopedia, and uploading photos of themselves in bathrobes is their way of unwinding, I can accept that. But then, those people should also be able to accept that other dedicated people will have their way of unwinding, with something else that's silly. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:22, 5 Apr 2008 (UTC)
Barnstars/fake pages/mistaken taggings
Barnstars
See one guestbook barnstar already deleted for rewarding behaviour not constructive towards making an encyclopedia, mainly WP:MYSPACE Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_March_19#Template:The_Guestbook_Barnstar and another on the way Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Wwesocks/guestbook/barnstar. I guess the secret pages are being nominated under a very, very, very similar reason
See as well any award using Image:Barnstar_barnstar_2.png (look at file links section). Notice that the image I mention was already being used as a guestbook barnstar by Vintei on User_talk:Runewiki777#Barnstar on November 2007. That's Vintei of "Vintei's shop" fame, see Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Vintei/shop, which was also deleted under WP:MYSPACE and stuff (the dots are connecting! it's all a conspiracy to make wikipedia into myspace! Run for your life! Ruuuuunnnnnnnnn!!!) --Enric Naval (talk) 04:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep, again (note: striken by other editor, see below) From personal experience, I worked really hard on my barnstar, making it the best it could be. If you guys do decide to delete everybody's barnstars, then please at least let everybody take a screen clipping or something of the barnstars, because I feel I can speak for a lot of people when I say that we worked hard for our barnstars (unless they used the general milk carton barnstar). By the way, I think that a lot of people may feel violated or hurt when you single them out. I know I would. Maybe in the future, just leave it at the basic general information. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 07:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment is formatted like a vote. However you already voted on this debate, as queerbubbles indicated. If you wish to keep the other vote instead, then please make necessary unstriking and modifications. Also consider placing all arguments for your vote on the same place, for the closing admin to read --Enric Naval (talk) 12:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If there are MfDs under way for barnstars, please comment at the relevant discussions. This discussion is just about hidden pages. Let's not confuse the matter by voting on whether or not to keep barnstars -- cause for one thing, it wont have any effect here. Equazcion •✗/C • 07:37, 2 Apr 2008 (UTC)
I apologize, I thought that this person started a new discussion regarding barnstars. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 07:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The implication is that if secret pages are deleted there will be no need for barnstars awarded as a result of secret page discovery, I think that's where the confusion has arisen. But while the barnstars will become obsolete, that does not automatically extend to their mandatory deletion thus it is not a part of this debate.Caissa's DeathAngel (talk) 14:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again... I don't think that anybody appreciates being singled out. Don't recommend that, or else you may have a really pissed off person knocking at your door (figuratively). –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 17:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fake pages

What about all these fake secret pages? Examples: 1, 2, 3, 4 .... CenariumTalk 16:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Worse than the real secret page. Ugh... Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 16:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, those should be deleted. Those are ridiculous, and they have no content. нмŵוτнτ 16:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that should be deleted. That even goes for my fake one... I don't even remember why I made that in the first place. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 17:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Look at this bureaucracy, deciding what's important for who and what's not. Sure nothing really is that important outside the article namespace but what ever happened to Laissez-faire? -- penubag  (talk) 01:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, so there is a policy regarding this. My sentiments exactly, penubag, fellow secret page owner. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 02:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An essay isn't policy. What happened to that particularly essay is that it seems plenty of people disagree with it. I don't "do" laissez-faire politics either, for the record. -Halo (talk) 03:37, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I'm not always for laissez-faire either, but you can't butt in other people's business. It's not really an invasion of privacy, but it's just a let it be situation. Let the user be, and if you don't like it, avoid that user or avoid secret pages. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 09:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd argue that nothing on Wikipedia is solely another person's sole business, especially considering the nature of Wikipedia, a completely community-ran and funded consensus-driven site that encourages collaboration and contribution. Wikipedia has /never/ worked that way that something is solely one person's business. I firmly believe that anything on Wikipedia that isn't in some way useful or valuable to the other people within the goals of the project should be banished from whence it came. For example, can you imagine the potential abuse if we just "let it be" everytime someone wants to abuse Wikipedia for their own interests? -Halo (talk) 09:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then why have userpages? They are a place for a user to talk about themselves or it's a personal space for the user, right? So, then with that argument, we should delete all of the userpages on Wikipedia. How about barnstars and userboxes? Those aren't part of the Wikipedia either, so those should get deleted too, then. You see how faulty that argument gets? And I'm surprised you used the word "abuse". How exactly do secret pages abuse Wikipedia? And... I'm saying that laissez-faire works in this case; not necessarily in all cases. –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 17:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe userpages exist to tell other users about yourself and your interests, which allows these other users to find out how they can collaborate with them. For example, if a user has written 50 FAs, it is likely they would be able to help another user write one too. If a user has a userbox saying they know about Christianity, perhaps another user might ask them to help with an article related to it. And so on. I think they were meant for users to express implicitly how they would be able to help the project. x42bn6 Talk Mess 19:12, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mistaken tagging

Why has my user page been nominated for deletion? Georgereev118118 (talk) 16:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I clicky clicked on your main userpage there... and there is no MfD notice on it or in the history. So i'd say its not. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 16:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC) Oops... I see it now. It gets lost in all of those userboxes. I have no clue. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 16:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Upon further inspection... you and one other person are the only ones who have edited that page recently. Using the logical deduction... I'd have to say that you put it there? Unless there is something I am completely missing, and in which case feel free to flame me. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 16:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
After some serious digging, I found out that the template you are using "User:GeneralIroh / Userboxes / Secret" (<-- obviously spaced out so that we dont get a giant MfD notice) is what is being up for deletion... not your page. If you want it removed, remove that userbox template. Cheers! Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 16:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the mfd notice of User:GeneralIroh/Userboxes/Secret since it's not a secret page, and it's transcluded in 55 userpages. CenariumTalk 17:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just a thought, but maybe when nominating pages that are transcluded, we should enclose the MfD template in <noinclude> tags. Dansiman (talk|Contribs) 17:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If applied generally i would say no as if the noinclude tags were used on templates such as MfD, much less of the community would be informed on these discussions. Simply south (talk) 17:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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