The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was Moved to User:Danish Expert/Flag essay. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 08:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Flag policy

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This article is an editors essay. Its name is indicating that it is WikiProject Football flag policy. This is incorrect and the only flag policy currently in use is Wikipedia:MOSFLAG. It was clarified in this archive that it is not the football projects policy. This should be deleted or probably moved to User:Danish Expert user space. Blethering Scot 17:40, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There actually isn't any flag policy at all. MOS:FLAG is a guideline.T v x1 01:52, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst i ackowledge that this is neither policy or guideline, its an essay.Blethering Scot 18:11, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I accept it could appropriately be renamed from "Flag policy" to "Flag guideline", which Tvx1 hinted would be a more accurate name. The page itself summarized the consensus reached at the WP Football forum, during multiple "Flag standard" debates conducted in the first half of 2011 (and back then it was accepted as such, with its creation being received by the WP Football forum as a good idea, as this special "flag guidelines" page had been build in a neutral way simply to reflect the outcome of the multiple repetitive consensus debates conducted at the WP Football talkpage for "flag use"). The WP Football forum needs to collect the result of its multiple "Flag policy" consensus debates conducted over time, as a point of navigation and steering point for multiple editors to check with as a starting point in case future "flag use" disputes erupt. Otherwise the arguments for our "Flag use" debates seems to repeat themselves endlessly, being restarted and repeated over and over again without learning anything from the previously conducted "consensus debates". The page is NOT an "editors essay", but instead a WP:Football consensus page intended to summarize the flag use guidelines (as a more detailed subset of flag use guidelines for the football related articles - being compliant with WP:MOSFLAG). As I have not contributed actively to WP Football in recent years, I am not able at present to report if some of the more recently conducted "flag use" consensus debates have changed the old "2011 consensus" at the WP Football forum. However, I insist its still relevant to keep this page. It should never be deleted, because as I argued, we clearly have a need for such football-related "flag guideline" page to be visible at the WP Football forum. As the "2011 page" was a first attempt, it might need, though, an update to reflect the outcome of the more recent "flag use" consensus debates conducted at the talkpages of "WP Foootball" and "Manual of Style/Icons" (i.e. the latest opened by Blethering Scot). But to spur such update work to be done (by some of the active WP Football members), deletion is not the appropriate tool to be used. Danish Expert (talk) 08:21, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: @Danish Expert: The issue is it isn't the project's flag guideline either. Its a good essay but unless you have full consensus of the project it should not be listed under a title of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Flag policy or guideline. We clearly do need to have a flag guideline as a project, but having looked through the archives of WP:Football rather extensively it appears virtually every time this is raised different views are given. Therefore we hardly have a consensus for more than a few months before its changed and in reality we are further away from a proper consensus than ever. This really needs to be renamed to either user space or some kind of draft until it is approved as a guideline or policy. Its not near that stage yet. I would love to help develop one for the project but it would have to respect MOS Flag rather than skirting it. Blethering Scot 18:08, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: @Blethering Scot: The disputed page was the project's flag guideline being compromised among its active members in the first half of 2011. If you read through all flag debates on the project's talkpage and their outcome during the first half of 2011, you will find that the page you now complain about, provides a nice neutral summary of how the "flag debates" back then had been solved (as a collective effort of multiple members except from myself) - with note of what the winning argument had been. This page in no way represents my personal position/argumentation on this matter, but entirely reflects the outcome of the projects flag decisions made during the first half of 2011 (which I took care to compile, as one of the most active project members back then). Such flag decisions made collectively by the project on its talkpage, can of course subsequently always be challenged, and perhaps changed if the project reaches other decisions for a new set of "flag guidelines" to be implemented based on a new set of better arguments reaching consensus. Again, I invite you to see and understand the present Flag policy page as a starting point for compiling the projects "flag guidelines" decisions, which can be subject for further debate or change among the members of the project. If the project reaches consensus to implement a new set of completely different "flag guidelines", then the page can either be moved to become a historical subpage of the page (i.e. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Flag policy/2011 flag guidelines) or simply just be edited and updated (which is a far better approach than page deletion, because members then still can have access to visit the history folder to check how the "flag guidelines" evolved during the course of time). If you reach consensus for a new set of "flag guidelines" on the football projects talkpage, then I invite you to conduct either an update with such consensus of the page - and or moving it to become a historical subpage (as it was actually used by the football project as a reference point back in 2011). I can not support your request for page deletion. Unfortunately I have not time myself to rejoin the football project and/or help move the "football flag" debate further ahead, but I send you the best whish in your effort to attempt reaching consensus for a new improved set of "flag guidelines" applying for the football project, and if such consensus is reached, I strongly recommend the disputed "flag policy" page is updated to reflect this new consensus (in summary style) to become a new reference point for the project in the future. Best regards, Danish Expert (talk) 09:49, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 18:03, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - this is not policy of this WikiProject which has been determined by consensus and discussion - this is one editor's opinion on the matter, and this is nothing more than their personal essay. Giant Snowman 18:05, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Archive, do not delete. This was clearly created within the WikiProject, clearly within scope of the WikiProject, to contribute useful structure/policy. Sure, "policy" is the wrong word, but past ideas should not be deleted but learned from. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@SmokeyJoe: - no, this was NOT created by the WikiProject - it was clearly created by one editor and one editor only. It has never been adopted by the WikiProject, and in fact many of us were shocked to learn of its existence recently (I've been an active member of the WikiProject for nearly a decade BTW...) Giant Snowman 11:22, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Was the one editor not working for the WikiProject? Anyway, I believe that WikiProject's should be entitled to manage their own pages. If members of the WikiProject want it deleted, then it should be deleted. Or userfied for the author. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:29, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One editor's opinion is not "working for the WikiProject" - if he wants to userfy it, let him. But it should not remain as a WikiProject policy, live or archived. Giant Snowman 12:34, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: Reading your hostile replies here disappoints me in multiple ways! First of all, you of all should know and remember, that I was engaged as one of the active members to help improve WikiProject Football in 2011. Second the page is not the result of my own opinion, but do reflect how the WikiProject football talkpage had solved multiple flag debates during the first half of 2011. Third as I replied above to User:Blethering Scot, the page was intended to be a first attempt to write down the "flag guidelines" for the project (based on a careful read of the projects "flag use" decisions made in the first half of 2011 and a check of how it had been implement at football related articles), and not an attempt to enforce my own personal argumentation in this field. Fourth I have provided you and Blethering Scot full approval to blank the page and update it with a new consensus-agreed "flag guidelines" when you manage to reach such thing. Blethering Scot fully agreed with my observation and analysis, that the project would hugely benefit from the creation of a page featuring the projects updated "flag guidelines". The only point I asked for here, was not to delete the page itself (because as per Wikipedia's administration policy, its better to update content of pages rather than deleting them, so that its development history still is kept visible for those who desire to check it out and learn from it). In regards of the content of the disputed project page (which have existed for four years without complaints), you and other project members are of course more than welcome to update and replace all content with a new version of the projects "flag guidelines". However, a stupid page deletion would be a bad decision for the project. I insist that keeping the page (along with my full approval to replace all its content if you decide to do that) would hugely benefit the project, and therefor now plee for WikiProject Football (with you or others in charge) to decide keep having a page open to display the projects "flag guidelines" (in short summary style). Best regards, from a formerly hardworking active project member, Danish Expert (talk) 06:19, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If your essay truly reflects the consensus of the WikiProject in 2011 then please provide links to these discussions. Giant Snowman 09:06, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I am out of time now to help you further understanding the value of my page contribution, by posting a collection of the specific debate links the page has been build upon. As already mentioned, all the "flag debates" it has been build upon were conducted in the first half of 2011 at the main talkpage of WikiProject Football. As you know, its possible to revisit and read all those archived debates again if you like. I guarantee you, that I did not write the page as an essay. In regards of forum approval, its correct the page itself was not being put up for a broad consensus debate itself once it had been compiled (despite that I posted a link for its creation at the talkpage and asked for comments/opinions to be submitted to it if other members felt it needed some changes here or there). But the page nevertheless falls in the category of being a consensus page, as it accurately reflects the outcome of multiple "flag debates" conducted at the WikiProject Football talkpage. Then you are all free to agree/disagree with such outcome, and go change it by new consensus (or challenge it now). I insist however, that the page was straight from the beginning intended as a starting point for a process for the project to write down its own appropriate "flag guidelines". You should really take it for what it is, and stop bullying me down.
Now I sincerely hope, that you and Blethering Scot will now subject it to some further development work. Because the project really needs to formulate its own specific "flag guidelines" as a subset of WP:MOSFLAG. Otherwise you will be caught-up in a new identical "flag dispute" being started and ended on the talkpage of the project every second week (with nobody learning from previous arguments and decisions being made). Blethering Scot has reported, that he fully agrees with me that it is a problem the Project does not work and refer to a consensus accepted set of "flag guidelines", because he found out that many of the latest conducted "flag use" debates had not been solved consistently in the exact same way by the project (depending on who of the active members had time to engage themselves in such debates at the various times they were conducted). If I should give you and Blethering Scot a friendly advice, it would be now to go through the same exercise I did back in June 2011: To extract the outcome of the most recently conducted "flag use" debates at the projects talkpage, and then update the "flag policy" page to reflect this (including what the winning arguments were). On basis of this, proposals can be made step by step during the course of time for the purpose of perfecting the flag guidelines further (based on the outcome of "flag use" debates conducted at the talkpage of the project). The current content of the page (created in June 2011) was in any case only understood to be a starting point. Perhaps you can reuse some small parts of the extracted arguments and logic being utilized back in 2011. If that is the case, then good. If not, then I wont force you to keep any of it. My constructive proposal here is, that you should not delete the page, but do whatever changes you find appropriate to its content (including blanking it all, if the project ends up to decide nothing of its content or presentation of logical arguments can be used). Best regards, Danish Expert (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, I think. I remember Danish Expert leading discussions of various aspects of football articles, including flags, professional leagues/notability, the organisation of the project itself, and I took part in them occasionally. What I don't remember is any agreement at the time that the results as written up by Danish Expert were any form of project policy. That editor may have seen them at the time as representing project consensus, but I don't remember, and can't find now, any indication that anyone else did. Having just read their reply timed at 11:56 above, it appears they saw this page as a starting point: that seems closer to my recollection. There's a difference between what gets done in articles under the project's remit, and what ought to be done if it wants to bring "its" articles closer to compliance with the Wikipedia MoS. Consequently, I don't really see much point in keeping it as historical record of the project's views on the matter, but would have no objection to its being userfied if anyone thinks it ccould be useful. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Archive and/or rename and/or put a prominent disclaimer at the top If the page is not renamed, it should have a prominent disclaimer at the top saying it is not a policy and never was one. If this is to be deleted I would expect a strong consensus from people involved in that WikiProject to recommend deletion. I'm not seeing any such support so I won't support deletion either (yet). davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 03:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment . It doesn't need strong consensus as there was never any consensus for its creation in the first place. So far four project members have commented. Three have said should be deleted and only one the creator has said should be kept. This must not be kept as a project page as it wrongly gives the impression the project endorse it or previously endorsed it. The only way this should be kept is if Danish Expert wishes it to be userfied to his space.Blethering Scot 18:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, this should not be archived - archiving it implies this is an old policy which is no longer in use, while in actual terms it was never a WikiProject Football policy. I don't know how many times we have to say that until people start listening... Giant Snowman 11:17, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Solution implemented to close this mfd debate and remit a continued keep of the page: The proposal made above by davidwr seems to be the most appropriate solution to this "deletion debate". So I adopted it straight away, and added a permanent notice box at the top of the disputed page explaining what the page is about and how it should be understood, so that it can be kept and developed further one day into a consensus guideline of the project. To say it short, if a poll was launched today at the talkpage of Wikiproject Football, there would be wide consensus for my initiative to create some more detailed "flag guidelines" for the football project. This is why it should be kept. This page is a good starting point to motivate other Wikiproject Football members to help us reach a consensus for a local flag guideline (something which the football-related articles heavily need). Personally I have not got any more time to help Wikiproject Football progress further in this field, as this corner of Wikipedia is no longer at the top of my priority list. So while insisting the page should be kept and developed further, I leave the next development steps in this field to be taken by others. If nobody objects to this implemented "note box" solution that davidwr proposed (which basically emphasize the disputed page is still "under construction" and not yet a "consensus guideline"), I propose this mfd debate should now be considered to have been solved with the page being kept (due to now being accompagnied by the clarifying notebox). Danish Expert (talk) 14:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment . Danish expert, there is no consensus for this page. Not at WP:Footy not anywhere. This page should not be kept at it's current title under any circumstance. The title regardless of the note makes it look official and several key members of WP:Footy are involved here advising you that. This must be deleted or moved to draft or user space.Blethering Scot 17:14, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.