John Galsworthy

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Over the years we've had several English authors (and authors in English) pass through PR on their way to FA. I hope Galsworthy will be a successor to Arnold Bennett, Ian Fleming, Somerset Maugham, Bernard Shaw, J. R. R. Tolkien, Hugh Walpole, Evelyn Waugh, P. G. Wodehouse and several others. Comments on content, prose, sourcing and anything else will be gratefully received. Tim riley talk 16:04, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LEAD

The Lead says "The Forsyte Chronicles is similar in many ways to Galsworthy's family, and the patriarch, Old Jolyon, is modelled on his father." Unless I missed it, this is not mentioned (or sourced) anywhere in the article below. Please review the Lead to be sure that all the assertions are drawn from content that is included and sourced below. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Both are mentioned in the main text. Could repeat mentions if wanted. Tim riley talk 17:29, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Now I see that the father-Jolyon connection is mentioned in "Early years", but I don't see anything about how the rest of the family was similar to Galsworthy's. I searched for "family". Can you point out where it is mentioned? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:41, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Third para of Reputation, but could expand earlier if wanted. Tim riley talk 17:57, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a little oblique. If you can think of an efficient way to mention it more clearly around other Ada mentions, it might be helpful. But I agree that it is sorta covered. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added a bit. Tim riley talk 18:57, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, better, I think. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should you mention PEN in the Lead? Also, why is angst italicized? It is a perfectly good English word, even if it is also a German word. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is PEN that notable? Hardly heard of it till revising this article. You're right about angst: the OED admits it unitalicised (and now I think about it if it were solely a German word it would need a capital A). Tim riley talk 18:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If PEN is not worth mentioning in the Lead, it should not get its own table at the bottom and a further bold mention/link in the Idiot Box. Galsworthy was its first official, and longest-serving (12 years), president; the organization is over a century old. During his tenure, it grew to become an international organization with a presence in dozens of countries, advocating for writers' rights and freedoms. It might be worthwhile looking through his key biographies' indices to see what they say about it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:10, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there is overkill in re the PEN club, but it has been shoehorned into the info-boxes of successive presidents. I'd happily blitz from this article, but that would put it out of kilter with those of H. G. Wells and successors. Neither Dupré not Gindin makes a production number of his presidency of the club, but I think info-boxes for authors are pretty pointless and of little importance and it will do no great harm to leave the PEN club reference untouched. There is a case to be made for an RFC to remove the succession box from all the info-boxes, but I honestly think it's too much trouble. Tim riley talk 23:01, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild

No need to respond to any of these suggestions. If you like any, implement them; otherwise, don't.

  • A bit of slab of text if I did that. I'll pass on that one.
  • Done.
  • Good thinking. Adjusted.
  • Yes, and done.
  • Done.
  • I think I am right in saying that all the French-derived terms are in the OED. In fact now I look I suspect I must unitalicise at least one which the OED prints in Romic.
  • I'm not sure, and never was. I've ditched it.
  • Quite so. Done.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Gog. Tim riley talk 16:06, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:16, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from MyCatIsAChonk

Thanks for your review on Stravinsky. Happy to give this a review! Note that I'm not quite an English professor, so take any prose corrections with caution. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:56, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After finishing, I realize a lot of my comments were about comma placements after prepositional phrases, so I'm fully prepared to be proved wrong. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:56, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Life and career
Works
Honours and beyond
Overall

Thank you very much for these points. I'll enjoy working through them. Tim riley talk 13:02, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from KJP1

Shall read through, and comment, over the next few days. KJP1 (talk) 07:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • First immediate thought; am I missing the bluelink to The Forsyte Saga (1967 TV series)? It’s referenced in both the lead, and the final para. of the Reputation section, but I can’t see a link.
  • Mea culpa. Now linked.
Early years
  • Parkfield/Galsworthy House - If the Pevsners weren’t in boxes, I’d do you a stub. Now a nursing home, with rather eye-watering fees, [1]! More importantly, it is listed, as a “curiosity”, by Historic England, [2]. Will do a stub before you hit FAC.
  • Bless you! That will be excellent.
  • “Devonshire yeoman” - although this sounds delightfully bucolic, and I’m sure reflects the source, I’m not sure yeoman will be commonly understood. If he was a farmer, perhaps that would be clearer. However, this [3] (RS?) suggests that John Galsworthy II made his first fortune as a dealer in marine stores in the boom town which Plymouth became during the Napoleonic Wars, and his second by shrewd property investments in London, which you cover in the next part of the sentence. I’m wondering whether something like; “substantial wealth inherited from his father (also John), a descendant of Devonshire yeomen who made his first fortune as a ship chandler in Plymouth before moving to London and investing wisely and profitably in property” would work?
  • Sort of. Split into two sentences, though.
  • “captain of his house XI” - for the benefit of those of us, home and abroad, to whom both Harrow’s house structure and cricket are closed books, perhaps a couple of links, “captain of his house XI”?
  • Done. (Though the XI played footer and not cricket. I think from memory of the sources he was an enthusiastic but unskilful cricketer.)
  • “In separate amateur dramatic production he fell in love…” - I’m not getting the first part of this. “a separate production? And separate from what?
  • Pruned. I was never quite happy with my drafting here.
First books; marriage
  • “prentice works” - I may well be showing my ignorance, but I wasn’t familiar with this term. Would a link to Apprenticeship help readers?
  • I don't think so, and will rummage in Roget's Thesaurus for a plainer way of saying the same thing.
  • “Wingstone, a farmhouse in the village of Manaton” - another listed building, for which Historic England records Galsworthy’s residence, [4]. As an aside, HE records his living there from 1904-1919, which conflicts with your source. Maybe worth a reference, or maybe not?
  • The latter, I think. HE is wrong to say that he lived there from 1904-1919, and arguably wrong to say that he lived there at all: it was only a holiday home.
First World War
  • Georg Sauter, who was interned as an enemy alien and later expelled” - link enemy alien, and while I appreciate that “expelled” may be technically correct, would “deported” be clearer?
  • Yes and yes.
  • 1918 New Year Honours list - by way of an interesting aside, but not necessarily for inclusion, Galsworthy’s refusal was mentioned in a House of Lords debate in March 1918.[5] The noble lords were debating the government’s commitment to providing its reasoning for the award of honours, the beginning of Lloyd George’s “cash for honours” scandal.
Postwar
  • “more than two million copies within months of publication” - He must have been coining it in at this time. On that point, you don’t directly mention his earnings. Do the sources have anything? You covered something similar in Arnold Bennett, highest-paid journalist / advances for some of the novels. Galsworthy’s combined literary earnings must have made him a very rich man, and if there is anything in the sources, I think a mention might give readers a sense of the scale of his success. Fréchet appears to have written a whole book on the subject, [6].
  • I'll have a dig, but I don't think JG was coining it on the same scale as Arnold Bennett. AB was happy to churn the stuff out for the Beaverbrook press at a vast salary, but JG was rather more fastidious. Despite this, they were great friends.
Later years
  • “they discovered and bought Bury House” - he certainly liked his listings![7] Would you like me to do a section on Galsworthy and his listed buildings? No, I thought not.
  • KJ, if you care to add a section – moving anything you think relevant, e.g. Hugh Walpole's comment – from the existing draft, please do; I think it is a worthwhile idea. Alas it will mean you can't comment at FAC, but san fairy ann.
  • Ada - I wonder whether a footnote on Ada might round out the picture, she rather wanders off-stage. I’m thinking of something like, “Ada survived him by over 20 years, dying in 1956”. As an aside, her article suggests she became rather odd - what is that reference to her trying to kill his favourite horse?
  • Good idea. I'll knock something up.
Works: Plays
  • The quote box - something looks awry in the Plays quote box. After Six Short Plays, 1921 Note 7, there’s a bullet that I think belongs on the next line. I tried to fix it myself but failed miserably.
Honours
  • Noting the comment from the reviewer above, and appreciating their logic, I personally think that a separate section is justified. The OM and the Nobel Prize are pretty impressive.
Reputation
  • I like the opening passage, but Mr Galsworthy does come across as something of a bore!
  • D. H. Lawrence - was Lawrence’s attack directed against a particular novel/play, or a more general assault on JG’s style of writing?
  • Fréchet 1979 - the title appears differently here to its listing in the Sources. Translation?
  • last para. - do the sources happen to say who benefited from Galsworthy’s royalties? They must have been considerable in the 1960s, and he had no children of his own. No worries if not, merely interesting.
  • Last line - anything that can be done about the double “new”?
Notes

More excellent coverage of a, now largely-neglected, author. Look forward to seeing it, and commenting, at FAC.

Many thanks, dear boy. I look forward to going through them. Tim riley talk 13:02, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • "beginning in April 1893, Galsworthy met the ship's first mate, Joseph Conrad, who had yet to begin his career as a writer. The two became lifelong friends.[19] In 1904 Galsworthy went to Russia," Just checking the accuracy of the 1904 date, it seems odd chronologically.
  • "Arthur Galsworthy sued for divorce in February 1905" From my readings in regards to Frank Russell, this was most likely for adultery following desertion, am I correct? Was John named as co-respondent? Is there no more to be said on this?
That's all I have. Very enjoyable read.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SC
Works

Very little left for me to look at given the attendees above – please ping when you go to FAC. - SchroCat (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda

Interested, will comment while I read. I like my own section to avoid edit conflicts but it can be made a list entry when completed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead and infobox

Early

Barrister

First books

I read to the end of the Life section without concerns. Rehearsal, more hopefully tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I read to the end and am pleased, thank you! I don't think that the box for his plays helps me much, showing that he produced them in fast succession and gave them short titles, and no more. - I like that "he was known for seeing both sides of most arguments and rarely giving any characters a monopoly of virtue or wisdom". I'll read again for FAC. --

Grateful thanks to reviewers, above. I'm back from holiday and have my books to hand and will enjoy going through the various suggestions. Tim riley talk 15:10, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't forgotten this review, but have temporarily been sidetracked by other undertakings both in WP and IRL. I hope to resume shortly. Tim riley talk 20:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Closing review

Apologies to colleagues who have been kind enough to offer comments, above, but I find I have temporarily run out of steam with this article, and am retiring it from PM.

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