This is a poll that would decide whether the infobox in the Western Sahara article should include the flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (SADR), or Morocco's flag, or none of them. The survey is being carried out under Wikipedia's Dispute Resolution guidelines.

Before voting, please read (at the introduction of) Western Sahara and Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic for more information.

Vote opened on the 1st of november. Will be closed on the 20th. One may add other options during the vote, in an attempt to reach a consensus.

To support either case, add a comment under the option of your choice. You can support or oppose more than one case, and please SIGN the comment with your username and the time and date of the comment. Please do not vote several times under different user names. No vote by ips will be taken into account. Any editor removing or changing another person vote will be stricken by fire.

The option with the highest value of support/total votes (total vote of each option independenlty) will be kept. If you disagree with these rules, please complain before the 2nd.

Voting options

Option Include SADR flag

This option would include in the infobox the flag, president, prime minister, koat of arms, national motto and hymne of SADR and leave aside any mention of Morocco. Benefit will be more information for the reader, drawback will be that the information will be considered inexact and offensive to some readers.

Western Sahara Infobox/Option 1

I see that you are confusing WS (Territory) with SADR (Self proclaimed republic), the page WS is actually about the territory, the defenition of WS in the introduction of the article is "WS is a territory" not "as a (non-sovereign) nation", the introduction says clearly that the territory is disputed. The flag of SADR isn't "Western Sahara's own flag" but the flag proposed by one party of the conflict and refused by the other. Using this flag means an anti-moroccan and pro-polisario stance. Daryou 22:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I respect your opinion, I see that you understand that WS isn't SADR. I think that the status of WS isn't most nearly that of a sovereign nation that has not yet decided upon a state, the status of WS is "a territory disputed between Morocco and SADR". The symbols you are talking about are not the own symbols of WS, they are the symbols used by a concerned party of the conflict and refused by the other. WS isn't SADR. We are not here to discuss the ligimacy of Moroccan control or of the SADR, it's about the neutrality of WP in a conflict. Daryou 22:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Would you have included Nazi Germany's flag in an article on Western Poland during World War II? Marsden 17:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Since Wikipedia was not around during World War II, this is not a relevant hypothetical question. But assuming that we do discuss historical hypotheticals, think about this: had the Manchukuo survived World War II (either as a result of a Japanese victory in the war or an inconclusive conclusion to the war), the Manchukuo flag would certainly be used despite the thoroughly international law-violating way in which Japan obtained the territory and set up the puppet government. That's because Wikipedia is supposed to be an informative organ, not one that makes a moral judgment. I don't think the situation is completely non-analogous. --Nlu 18:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You mean, of course, that you don't think it's a relevant hypothetical question. Thank you for your thoughts, Nlu; I disagree. Marsden 19:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As for the flag, it was originally designed by Polisario in 1973 (two years before the Moroccan invasion), but it has since been adopted by non-Polisario Sahrawi nationalists. It is used extensively in the Sahrawi demonstrations in the territories and in south Morocco, for example, and also by the Khat al-Shahid breakaway faction. Also, it can be found in quite a few dictionaries around the world listed as the flag of Western Sahara, not the "Polisario flag". The case is similar to that of Palestine: the Palestinian flag was first adopted by the PLO, but is by now in widespread use even by elements hostile to the PLO, and seen as representing Palestine, rather than a particular organization within the Palestinian community. Or for that matter, the Tibetan flag: it is not "the flag of Dalai Lama", but precisely the Tibetan flag, whatever one thinks of Tibetan independence. (Perhaps this should go on the talk page instead. We're taking a lot of space now.) Arre 18:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the information, Arre. I've changed my support to "Strong support." Marsden 19:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I said it many times, the flag you are talking about is the flag used by a party of the conflict and refused by the other, using this flag is pro-polisario and anti-moroccan stance and doesn't comply with WP principles of neutrality. I'm glad you mentionned the examples of Palestinian Territories and Tibet. The flags are not in those pages but in the State of Palestine and Government of Tibet in Exile pages. It is the same in the Taiwan and Republic of China case. I don't know why WS should be an exception. I said many times that the flag of SADR have its place in the SADR page not in the page devoted to Western Sahara; this way of proceeding comply with WP neutrality principles without depriving WP readers from information about independance and separatist movements and about governments in exile. Daryou 13:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
How does your opinion expressed here jive with your support of including the Moroccan flag only? Marsden 21:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I Explained why in my support comment under option 2. However, I support more and more strongly the Option 3. WP neutrality has priority.Daryou 22:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Option Include Moroccan flag

This option would include in the infobox the flag, king, prime minister, koat of arms, national motto and hymne of Morocco and leave aside any mention of SADR. Benefit will be more information for the reader, drawback will be that the information will be considered inexact and offensive to some readers.

Western Sahara Infobox/Option 2

It's not Wikipedia's place to endorse any position, period; while I am also opposing placing just the Morocco flag and information about Morocco on the page, I don't think that your campaign to turn Wikipedia into an organ that makes moral judgments fits with the philosophy of what created it. --Nlu 18:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
My "campaign?" Excuse me? Do you really imagine that you have any qualification to speak of my intentions when I am right here? Should I similarly pontificate about what you are up to on Wikipedia? Marsden 19:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Pleassssse guys. Only leave constructive arguments here. Nlu, Marsden has the right to have a personal opinion (even if you think it offensive), so please do not turn to personal attacks. Marsden, in front of a personal attack, just do not react. Do not fuel it any further. There is nothing to gain and much to lose. This type of exchanges brings nothing to the debate. Imho. Anthere 08:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Option include no flags

This option would include in the infobox information about the territory without information about the concerned parties of the conflict (Morocco and SADR). Benefit will be no false information will be provided according to all readers, drawback will be that all involved parties may consider information is missing.

Western Sahara Infobox/Option 3

And you also added something like "claimed also by the Polisario for the SADR", next to "independence declared", which I believe is both an inappropriate wording and quite confusing. Because, now it seems like there's three parties claiming to represent Western Sahara: as an independent country, as per under Moroccan sovereignty and as the Polisario. I suggest we change this back later, but most of all, I suggest that we all stop tampering with the proposed infoboxes until voting is completed. People must know that the alternative they've voted for doesn't change AFTER they picked it, and minor stuff like this we can surely handle without a poll. I won't revert it, or engage in a debate on it, but please consider what I said. Best regards, Arre 15:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't write: "claimed also by the Polisario for the SADR", I writed exactly "Claimed also By Polisario Front who proclaimed the SADR in 1976", I don't see any confusion. If you don't like the wording I changed it to "claimed also by the Polisario front which in 1976 formally proclaimed the SADR". If some one who supported the option 3 see any inconvenient, in that case we can restore the previous version. Cheers. Daryou 17:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I don't see how this option could be biased to Moroccan POV! The Moroccan POV is clear: "WS is Moroccan (Southern Provinces of Morocco)", Do you read this in this option? Daryou 22:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
However, I don't think there is reasonable dispute that Morocco does control most of Western Sahara, so I don't understand your assertion that "the implication that either 'controls' WS should be absent, because it is simply untrue." Whether Morocco's control of Western Sahara is legitimate is the question; that it does control most of Western Sahara is a fact. --Nlu 11:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand your point, but disagree that it follows that legitimacy is the question Wikipedia should answer. Wikipedia has no opinion whatsoever on the matter, and we should always strive to have no comment on the matter. We should merely try to ascertain the facts. One of those facts is indeeed that Morocco control most of the WS, yet not all of it. Thus the WS as a whole has seperate regions controlled by seperate governments. Neither controls all of it. The Minister of War(Peace) 17:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, I'm not saying that Wikipedia should answer the question of whether Morocco's occupation is legitimate -- in fact, I am saying quite the reverse. I'm saying that that is the only open question. That SADR controls parts of Western Sahara does not mean that, for all intents and purposes, Morocco does control the vast majority of Western Sahara. I don't think that control of all of disputed territory is required for "effective control" to be ascertained. --Nlu 17:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Deliberate ommission of misleading (or oversimplified) information from infoboxes is a very good policy. In general, if the situation is too complex to be summarised simply in an infobox, then don't put it in an infobox - let the readers read the article for the details! No-one has suggested not having the information anywhere at all. JPD (talk) 09:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but that's not correct. I have just discovered that User:Durova has been modifying the polls after votes have been cast, and in this case, the original poll suggested no flags and no information about concerned parties of the conflict should be included. [1]. I am registering an official protest on the talk page and adding the totally disputed header to this page. Changing the poll after votes have been cast is entirely inappropriate. --Viriditas | Talk 12:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that changing the poll after votes have been case is inappropriate, but my statement is still true. Noone has suggested not including all relevant information somewhere appropriate on Wikipedia. The only dispute is whether it should (also) be in this infobox. JPD (talk) 12:35, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Option Include both flags and both information

This option would include in the infobox information about the territory and include information on both SADR and Morocco. Benefit would be that it provides more information and provides both views' information. Drawback will be that it would have some information to offend all involved parties.

I am going to add a few things to note the dispute. --Nlu 17:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I like your wording, but I see no reason not to include the Moroccan coat of arms; if we're going to include the flag, might as well have the display be parallel with each other. Also, I don't like putting one above the other -- my version was intentionally trying to keep them parallel with each other to the extent possible. --Nlu 23:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it is better to have them parallel.. but if it is a territory of Morocco, it would be unusual to show a coat of arms of the entire country wouldnt it? unless Morocco has made a coat of arms specifically for the territory of Western Sahara Astrokey44 23:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You are absolutely right, but the same goes for the flag. JPD (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • The version 4b by Astrokey44 is defenitively not neutral:
  1. The title should be "WS" not "SADR";
  2. this infobox uses the word "occupied" witch is pro-polisario biased, refused by Morocco and absolutly not used in Minurso reports;
  3. Most of the information about Morrocco (as a concerned party) is ommited, the only information kept is its flag, saying that this version includes both flags and both information isn't true: It includes both flags but no information about Morocco.
  4. Saying that no other country recognizes the Moroccan souvreinty isn't true (unless you give me evidence that all the world countries declared clearly that they didn't recognize Moroccan souvreinty), there is no need to recognize souvreinty of every country over every part of its territory. And remember that WS is included in European-Moroccan fishing treaties. Daryou 23:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Most countries didn't get "their" territory by invading neighbouring colonies in defiance of the UN. But let's discuss that on a talk page instead; you're flooding the page by attacking every vote that doesn't agree with you. If there really are problematic texts within the infobox, we can fix that through consensus later. And, also, everybody: please stop changing the templates options. Minor changes we do later and major changes should only appear as new options. Arre 01:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Please meet me in the talk page. Daryou 15:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
===> This version is completely different from the Nlu's version. This situation is really confusing, there is at least 3 users who voted before adding this version b (Fayssal, Pperos and Nlu), and it isn't clear if the other voters support one or the 2 versions of this option. If you think that this version should be kept, I suggest to consider it as an Option 5; in that case messages should be sent to the voters to know witch version they support. Best regards. Daryou 23:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Option 3 is "neutral" either under your reading of the policy (which I think is too literal, in any case) -- because the lack of the users' "preferred" flag will still be viewed as unsatisfactory to them. I don't see this as a valid objection to Option 4 vis-a-vis Option 3. --Nlu 05:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of "preferred" flag is neutral because it isn't biased. For concerned parties, I believe that the presence of the other sides flag is more offending than seeing no flags.
Is there an Option 5 that you are proposing? --Nlu 11:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I guess I am. As omitting information is always a bad idea, I would propose Option 5: No flags, lots of information! As I havent created the poll, I'll leave that to whomever feels responsible for adding this option. The Minister of War(Peace) 20:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As is clear from the top of the poll, anyone is free to add options -- as I did with Option 4 when I felt the first three options were lacking. I think you should create Option 5, since you are the one with the clearest idea of what it should look like. Feel free to adapt from Option 4 if you wish -- as I took all my information from the other options.  :-) --Nlu 23:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
After second thought, it doesnt really warrant another option. All i'm saying is taht the article should always contain as much information as possible, regardless of what stands in the infobox. -- The Minister of War(Peace) 06:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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