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Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: L235 (Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Guerillero (Talk) & Seraphimblade (Talk) & Doug Weller (Talk)

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The aim of this case is to review and if necessary modify by motion existing sanction provisions in the prior Palestine-Israel articles case. Evidence must focus on current problems observed while editing in the area and suggestions as to how a change in sanctions might improve editing here.There are no parties to this case.

Scope of evidence[edit]

So Malik Shabazz and Brad Dyer are out of the scope of the case and no new evidence should be posted about them? --Pudeo ' 14:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of this case is a review of the current sanction regime for Palestine-Israel articles with an eye to improving it, and all evidence should be about that. Doug Weller (talk) 15:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Preliminary statements removed[edit]

Hi everyone. At the direction of a drafting arbitrator, I have removed the preliminary statements from the evidence page, and posted them to the main case talk page, as was standard practice prior to a procedure change about a month ago. Thanks - L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 21:34, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Working group curiosity[edit]

One of the remedies of the original case posited the creation and report of a working group to address the issues raised. This was over seven years ago, and may not have been successfully implemented anyway, but does anyone know whether such a group was actually convened and what its conclusions were? Yunshui ^雲 _水 10:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well before my time, but this was the workgroup created, and this was the final report. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 15:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Much obliged; thanks for the links. Yunshui ^雲 _水 10:17, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

timeframe:[edit]

Dates were pushed back to avoid Jewish and Muslim holidays --Guerillero \| Parlez Moi 00:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I intend to submit evidence/suggestions here, but I´m still working on it. Just to make sure: when you said that evidence should be added by the 8th; that is by the end of the day? I just want to make sure that I have (just over ) 48 hours left...and not (just over) 24 hours... Huldra (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] Just get it posted as quickly as possible. I am willing to be lenient about time (you have 48 hours-ish) --Guerillero \| Parlez Moi 23:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] Thank you; but like with my tax-return: I tend to leave the papers in at the last hour! (I´m still working on my draft, here,) Huldra (talk) 20:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] We may extend the deadline. Doug Weller (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] Don´t tell me that!!! Then I will just postpone it ... Huldra (talk) 21:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] Ok; now you can tell us ;P; I´m mostly done for today. As alway: it takes a heck of a lot more time that I expected. I would have liked to have made some more edits in my "Results"-section, but I´m not sure it would result in any "actionable" info, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] Per direction from a drafter, everything is now extended one week. Thanks - L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 11:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] @L235: I mentioned this (pinging Doug) on the talk page of the main case page. But: You have now moved the evidence close date directly onto Rosh Hashanah, a major Jewish holiday when many participants in this discussion will be off-wiki for some or all of 48 hours. One of the original reasons that the dates were changed in the first place was because the workshop close date was originally going to be Rosh Hashanah. Look, I really try to assume good faith, but when something like this happens, it starts straining my ability to do that. The new Workshop close date is now another major Jewish holiday, Sukkot. Same arguments apply, even though the holiday is probably a little less widely observed. Please just make sure major phases of the case do not close on Sept. 14, 15, 23, 28, 29 or Oct. 5 or 6. They're all major Jewish holidays. This happens to be the season for the holidays. I didn't pick the dates for the holidays, and I didn't ask for this case to run at this season of the year. Thank you for your understanding. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] FWIW I don't see how it would be an unreasonable impediment to the process to honour this request. Especially since this case is likely to be of import to those of the Jewish faith. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] I will push it back, like I did for the original evidence to make sure it wasn't on Rosh Hashanna. It looks like I am the only one who has been looking at the calendar. I want to avoid having it close on the Sabbath, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot or Eid al Adha. That makes this month slightly tight. (I half want to extend everything until a single day in early October because of the holidays.) Would the close of evidence on the 17th and the close of the workshop on the 21st be fine with everyone. This will be a much shorter workshop only period then most, but it is as good as I can do until the 27th or the 5 October. --In actu (Guerillero) \| My Talk 15:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] I just remembered that this is Hajj season for Muslims (22-26 Sept). Another layer of complexity --In actu (Guerillero) \| My Talk 15:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] And I'll point out again that 5-6 October is still Jewish holiday season (Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah). Between Jewish holidays and the Hajj, I'm guessing your best bet is going to be close of evidence on the 17th, close of workshop on 1 October (two full weeks). 1 October is an intermediate day of Sukkot, but I think still a reasonable close date. 5-6 October are full holidays, therefore more problematic. Thanks VERY MUCH for your efforts on this. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:40, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] I forgot about those two holidays, thank you. I am going to expedite the process and see if I can get the changes done tonight. --Guerillero \| Parlez Moi 15:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] User:StevenJ81 Many apologies and many thanks for pointing this out. This had slipped my mind entirely. About the only religious holiday times I easily recall are the Jewish and Christian ones in December, and Passover/Easter which always catches me unaware unless I want to book a holiday in the Spring. And Eid and Ramadan, but I never know when those are now that I'm retired. I did have, belatedly, the two main relevant Wikiprojects notified, something we should always do when there are relevant projects. Doug Weller (talk) 16:00, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] Not to worry, Doug. I have a hard enough time keeping my work colleagues up to speed. And while Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Passover and Chanukah are well-known to many in the US Northeast, where I live, some of the others really aren't. Myself, I have a hard time keeping up with Eid and Ramadan, because they move back through the solar year. I truly hope all this turns into time for productive contributions and discussion, and not just time for more bellyaching. (smile) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dates were pushed back to avoid Jewish and Muslim holidays --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 00:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I intend to submit evidence/suggestions here, but I´m still working on it. Just to make sure: when you said that evidence should be added by the 8th; that is by the end of the day? I just want to make sure that I have (just over ) 48 hours left...and not (just over) 24 hours... Huldra (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just get it posted as quickly as possible. I am willing to be lenient about time (you have 48 hours-ish) --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you; but like with my tax-return: I tend to leave the papers in at the last hour! (I´m still working on my draft, here,) Huldra (talk) 20:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We may extend the deadline. Doug Weller (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Don´t tell me that!!! Then I will just postpone it ... Huldra (talk) 21:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok; *now* you can tell us ;P; I´m mostly done for today. As alway: it takes a heck of a lot more time that I expected. I would have liked to have made some more edits in my "Results"-section, but I´m not sure it would result in any "actionable" info, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per direction from a drafter, everything is now extended one week. Thanks - L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 11:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@L235: I mentioned this (pinging Doug) on the talk page of the main case page. But:

You have now moved the evidence close date directly onto Rosh Hashanah, a major Jewish holiday when many participants in this discussion will be off-wiki for some or all of 48 hours. One of the original reasons that the dates were changed in the first place was because the workshop close date was originally going to be Rosh Hashanah. Look, I really try to assume good faith, but when something like this happens, it starts straining my ability to do that.
The new Workshop close date is now another major Jewish holiday, Sukkot. Same arguments apply, even though the holiday is probably a little less widely observed. Please just make sure major phases of the case do not close on Sept. 14, 15, 23, 28, 29 or Oct. 5 or 6. They're all major Jewish holidays. This happens to be the season for the holidays. I didn't pick the dates for the holidays, and I didn't ask for this case to run at this season of the year.

Thank you for your understanding. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW I don't see how it would be an unreasonable impediment to the process to honour this request. Especially since this case is likely to be of import to those of the Jewish faith. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will push it back, like I did for the original evidence to make sure it wasn't on Rosh Hashanna. It looks like I am the only one who has been looking at the calendar. I want to avoid having it close on the Sabbath, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot or Eid al Adha. That makes this month slightly tight. (I half want to extend everything until a single day in early October because of the holidays.) Would the close of evidence on the 17th and the close of the workshop on the 21st be fine with everyone. This will be a much shorter workshop only period then most, but it is as good as I can do until the 27th or the 5 October. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 15:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just remembered that this is Hajj season for Muslims (22-26 Sept). Another layer of complexity --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 15:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And I'll point out again that 5-6 October is still Jewish holiday season (Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah). Between Jewish holidays and the Hajj, I'm guessing your best bet is going to be close of evidence on the 17th, close of workshop on 1 October (two full weeks). 1 October is an intermediate day of Sukkot, but I think still a reasonable close date. 5-6 October are full holidays, therefore more problematic.

Thanks VERY MUCH for your efforts on this. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:40, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot about those two holidays, thank you. I am going to expedite the process and see if I can get the changes done tonight. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:StevenJ81 Many apologies and many thanks for pointing this out. This had slipped my mind entirely. About the only religious holiday times I easily recall are the Jewish and Christian ones in December, and Passover/Easter which always catches me unaware unless I want to book a holiday in the Spring. And Eid and Ramadan, but I never know when those are now that I'm retired. I did have, belatedly, the two main relevant Wikiprojects notified, something we should always do when there are relevant projects. Doug Weller (talk) 16:00, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not to worry, Doug. I have a hard enough time keeping my work colleagues up to speed. And while Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Passover and Chanukah are well-known to many in the US Northeast, where I live, some of the others really aren't. Myself, I have a hard time keeping up with Eid and Ramadan, because they move back through the solar year.

I truly hope all this turns into time for productive contributions and discussion, and not just time for more bellyaching. (smile) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]