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Archive page 2: Messages from 2009
Hi folks! I love the Project page. Very nice. Lots of pics of squishy stuff. Nature's gum.
I created Vetigastropoda and Apogastropoda because they were red before. I really have no idea about taxonomy and snails and stuff, except that my uncle used to go out in the garden and cut the slugs in half with a pair of scissors.
Anyhow, JoJan wrote an explanation at the bottom of this page which I didn't really understand, except the last sentence which said that I probably just created the page for nothing. I gather the same is true for Vetigastropoda.
A lot of articles seemed to link to these new articles: [1] and [2]
I don't really get it. Could somebody please explain? Wait. Explain, but in layman's terms, and please tell me if the articles will get cut in half with a pair of scissors.
Thanks, and keep on Sluggin'............Sluggers. Ha ha (I guess that's kind of an oldie around here.)--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I made Sigmurethra and Orthurethra. I hope I got some of it right. I will try to find some info for the lead, but at the moment it just says that they are slow and squishy.
Hi, I am in the proccess of making a page for the sea hare Dolabella auricularia. I have currently put it on a subpage on my talk page Talk:Muzlie/Dollabella auricularia. Please feel free to help me make this article, or atleast put a little something for each section. Also I copied the taxo box from the Aplysia dactylomela page and because they are from the same family i didnt do much changing, if some one could also go through it to see if its correct that would be great. thanks --Muz (talk) 14:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I have just realised that i have mispelt the title of the subpage, and put too many Ls in Dolabella, i supose that that isnt to bad as it wont make a difference to the actual article on wiki --Muz (talk) 14:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
and now i have realised that i still dont properly understand the subpage instructions. i am going to move to an actual article then improve it from there.(i dont know why i keep doing wrong things) see -> Dolabella auricularia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muzlie (talk • contribs) 15:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi Anna, I just now went through the article Taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Bouchet & Rocroi, 2005), which is currently our "Bible" for taxonomy, and I turned all of the taxa names into links. If you go through the lists, even the ones that are blue links could benefit from one of your very nice "image collages" for the taxobox. And the ones that are red links, especially the larger Clades and Informal groups, well they could use one of your stubs. (Obviously the taxa that contain a lot of blue-linked families will have more images for you to work from in making the collages. Hope this is helpful. I am also posting a copy of this on the Project Gastropods page. All the best wishes to you, from sluggy Invertzoo (talk) 23:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Corrected spelling of Neritimorpha. --Snek01 (talk) 12:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi again Anna. As you can see, we are polishing up your stubs shortly after you create them. I for one am happy to see them appear. The single images are very nice indeed, there is no problem with them at all. I think you are picking up the hang of this quite quite well. We certainly do need someone to help us with these snails and slugs, as there are so few of us working here and so much needs doing, especially on the taxonomy end of things. If there is anything I can do to make the articles you are using for reference (like the Bouchet and Rocroi article) more easy to understand, or more easy to use, please let me know. Also if you continue to let us know as your new stubs appear we will run right over and check them out. Many thanks and all good wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 15:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I am amazed how well you are doing with all this! It's not easy to tackle this stuff even when you have a background in it. Congratulations!
I am including the note I wrote to Snek here:
Dear Snek, This is just a friendly reminder in advance, that any discussion that relates to possible policies or guidelines about the content and style of articles needs to take place in Wikipedia discussion space. Private email is never a suitable vehicle for attempting to negotiate style policies, because there needs to be a public record of what is said on those type of issues in order that a consensus can be reached. Here is a current comment from JoJan (the founder of WikiProject Gastropods) on the question of composite images: "Personally, I like them, especially for articles about families and the ranks above. They give a nice overview of the different species within that rank. And furthermore, it's pleasing to the eye and may attract more readers. A caption is optional. Anna is doing a good job and has become an asset for this project. JoJan (talk) 09:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)" I also like the composite images Anna has made, I think they are very attractive and I agree 100% with JoJan's comments. Best wishes to Snek and to Anna, Invertzoo (talk) 12:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi again, OK to try to answer your questions and comments:
1. You have been tackling most of the most major clades and Informal groups that were red-linked. But still there are plenty of red links left in the "main clades and informal groups" section of Bouchet and Rocroi, not to mention how many there are in the full "Taxonomy" section.
2. No current problem that needs zapping, Captain Kirk.
3. Email is intended for more personal questions, like: "We both live in New York City, can we meet up and have tea some time? Here is where I live, here is my phone number." and so on.
4. The main Gastropod article does need work, and so do the Snail and Slug articles. if you are inspired to try to work on any of them but not sure that want you want to say is correct, you could do a draft of what you want to say on a subpage you can create from your userpage, see [3]. I have three subpages off of my user page that I use for drafting things, see User:Invertzoo#Subpages.
5. There are masses of all various things that need doing in the Gastropods Project, and some of them are perhaps a bit more like "drudgery" than others, depending on one's inclination. I want you to be able to enjoy what you are doing, and do what you like to do! So please go ahead and do what you like to do for now, or let us know what other kinds of things you might like to tackle, if that makes any sense. All good wishes to you, sluggy Susan Invertzoo (talk) 15:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.
All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:29, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I think we should consider not to use some composite images. If we consider to using them so to consider what are good places and what could be a better way to replace composite images. I found no related discussion to this theme at wikipedia.
Agruments to using them:
Arguments to not using them:
Neutral comments:
We should consider all agruments and we shoudl you composite images for large taxa only in such ways, where it is usefull and to not use them where there are better ways. --Snek01 (talk) 17:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
There are many ways in which composite images are usefull: for example File:Anostoma octodentatum shell.jpg looks good when it is in taxobox, see Anostoma octodentatum or as a thumb ot he right side or a left side of the article. But high image does not much good in a gallery.
These ways are good and uploader will choose the best way, because he kown how he/she will use the image. I would like to hear from you which
The upper images show a lateral view of the dart of each species; the scale bar is 500 μm (0.5 mm).
The lower images show a cross-section; the scale bar on these is 50 μm.
Trichia hispida, Xerarionta kellettii, Bradybaena similaris, and Chilostoma cingulatum.
Humboldtiana nuevoleonis, Leptaxis erubescens, Cepaea hortensis, and Monachoides vicinus.
It is just an simple example, but if we use the third way of putting these darts into article. It will appear the same and we, for example save space at Wikimedia Commons because we can delete the one composite image.
Such examples with composite images are quite rare at wikipedia. So nobody took care about such details, but it is good to consider using composite images in many large taxa articles. --Snek01 (talk) 17:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
There is already possibile to put two images into taxobox. See Valvata piscinalis article. So it would be easy to make it possible to 3 images also in the future.
Guilfordia yoka | |
---|---|
apical view of the shell of Guilfordia yoka | |
Scientific classification | |
Kingdom: | |
Phylum: | |
Class: | |
Family: | |
Genus: | Guilfordia
|
Species: | G. yoka
|
Binomial name | |
Guilfordia yoka |
Consider, that Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not paper and it have is advantages and disadvantages.
For running and editing wikipedia: Composite images made in one file is not good for easy editing and for modern internet encyclopedia. Ther are better ways how to do it.
For reader: For example very small images are bad for a reader. Even if there is technically possible to make them, then such small images are used only where in not enough space, for example at Main Page.
Choose a theoretical way which is the best for a reader and somebody will realize it.
I am looking for your suggestions. --Snek01 (talk) 17:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
You have done some very good work with combining images, there is no question about that, and thank you so much for all of your work Michal, it is very fine work.
I do agree in general with quite a few of the points you make, the exception being that, as you already know, I take the basic position that combined images are perfectly OK in a taxobox of a family or larger taxon, despite the component images being small. I think they look quite charming visually, and are attractive to potential readers.
And functionally a combined set of images makes the point that there are a number of different-looking minor taxa within this one bigger taxon. It shows immediately, visually, that the article is about a category or group of gastropods.
Additional images can easily be added to the article in a row to the right of the rest of the text, where that is helpful.
Invertzoo (talk) 22:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
As there seems to be consensus on the composite taxobox images for now, may I fill in the last two?
These have composites...
Patellogastropoda, Vetigastropoda, Neritimorpha, Caenogastropoda, Heterobranchia, Pulmonata
The last two are...
Neritimorpha with only a single image. Found them! Created and added composite image. Done
Cocculiniformia has no images at all. Found drawings, created and added composite image. Done
Can someone suggest a location where I can find images? (Cocculiniformia photos)--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I just made Pectenodoris trilineata. It could use a check, especially the taxobox. Thanks! Also, should I remove it from the WikiProject Gastropod main page?--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I replied to this on your talk page Anna, best, Invertzoo (talk) 23:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I have suggested a task for a bot Wikipedia:Bot requests#robot for WikiProject Gastropods. Feel free to share your opinion. --Snek01 (talk) 19:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
All of us will need to be very careful indeed with checking your instructions, in order to make sure they are completely watertight before this bot action is approved. I already found one crucial spelling error in your instructions: "-idea" instead of "-idae". An error in the instructions could be disruptive to a huge number of article talk pages, and then we would be worse off than we were before the whole thing started. Invertzoo (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Aporrhaidae could use a check-over. Thanks!--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:58, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Cycloneritimorpha could use a check-over. It's a little raw because. I am pooped and will add to it tomorrow if I can. Thanks!--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
OK, it's coming along nicely. I just wanted to say that Neritimorpha is a clade, and so is Cycloneritimorpha, both are clades. A clade is not the same as a Subclass or a Superorder. Gastropod taxonomy is switching over gradually from the Linnaean system of taxonomy to molecular phylogenetic taxonomy, so right now we are using a weird temporary synthesis which involves elements from both systems. As the Bouchet & Rocroi article says: "This classification... [is] ...using unranked clades for taxa above the rank of superfamily (replacing the ranks suborder, order, superorder and subclass), while using the traditional Linnaean approach for all taxa below the rank of superfamily." That may not be 100% intelligible, but in the new taxonomy we are using, we don't use suborder or order or superorder or subclass. There are clades instead, but the clades are not strictly ranked and so they can't be exactly slotted in, like the old levels of taxa could be.
Also the article needs some refs when you get a chance. Of course you can give the Bouchet & Rocroi publication as one reference. Best wishes from sluggy Susan, Invertzoo (talk) 00:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Added a quote from B&R, Invertzoo (talk) 00:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi Anna, Rather than calling you dense, I would call you brilliant. Jumping into writing about gastropod taxonomy (which has always been a large and difficult subject) and doing it at this point in time when the subject is changing so profoundly, and doing it with no background at all, is brave to say the least! And so far you are not sinking but swimming.
Yes, whenever you come across something in a gastropod taxobox that does not correspond with the B&R chart of the current taxonomy, then you can change it; that would be really great! That is exactly what needs doing! That would be fantastic! (I have to confess that I have been just too darn lazy to update most of taxoboxes I come across. Instead I have simply been deleting the old, out-of-date taxonomy so the taxobox looks a bit weird because it goes straight from class all the way down to family (or superfamily) without anything in between.) In fact whenever you feel like tackling the updating of some gastropod taxboxes, that would be one of the most useful and helpful things you could possibly do for the Project. As for your specific questions:
Yes one clade certainly can nest inside another. And yes, Cycloneritimorpha and Cyrtoneritimorpha are both clades within the bigger clade of Neritimorpha.
You can visualize them as two very small branches (which each have a lot of twigs), and both of those small branches are connected as one bigger, forking branch, within the tree of life. Take a look at this diagram, it is not gastropods at all, but it shows you how you can have nesting groups and branches that fork in different ways. [5]
Ever since Darwin, taxonomy is supposed to try to accurately represent the actual tree of life, the tree that shows how organisms descended from one another in the evolutionary past. The old Linnaean system with a rigid hierarchy of fixed ranks (like the army) (the ranks Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species), does not do a good job of showing how the tree of life really grew and really grows, so that is why people are gradually switching over to clades.
Yes Neritopsina is a redundant article in a way, but because the term is still encountered very often in many print and on-line sources, I think there is nothing wrong with having an article on it, as long as it is made clear in the article that this taxon is now "out of date", and is no longer used, (at least not by Bouchet and Rocroi and their followers. Perhaps we should work out some way of indicating that a taxobox is "historic and not current". I will ask JoJan what he thinks about that idea.
So, all in all, I think you got everything right! Best, Susan, Invertzoo (talk) 14:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Here I am again. Yes absolutely, me too, I also don't know or can't remember how to fill in the taxobox so that the clades show up correctly. I do know that JoJan knows exactly how to do this, and I have asked him; I hope he replies soon. I do agree: we need one perfectly filled-in taxobox, all the way down to species level, to be a helpful example for all of us.
As for how long the Bouchet & Rocroi system will last, it is not a "passing fancy" exactly, but certainly it is nothing more than one good step in the right direction. So I can guarantee you that the B&R system will not be in use in 20 years time, or even 10 years time. Probably not even in 5 years time. A few of their insights may still be in use however for quite a while. Actually I don't expect Gastropod taxonomy to settle down very much at all for at least 20 years or perhaps even 50 or 75 years, because of all the insights that are coming thick and fast from research in molecular phylogeny. So here at Project Gastropods we will be updating and updating and updating as many times as necessary over the years. But there is not really any feasible good alternative to all that work. We can't stick with one old system and we can't really just refuse to make taxoboxes. For a little bit of time we were hobbling along, going straight from class all the way down to Superfamily, but that's kind of a weird thing to do too.
Seriously, if you would rather just keep making new articles like the nudibranch stubs, that's great too and goodness knows we have masses of new pics coming in every day of mollusks of all various kinds, with shells and without. It's a really huge phylum. All the best wishes to you, Invertzoo (talk) 23:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I tried to cobble together a "perfect" taxobox and put it on the Project page. Take a look. Invertzoo (talk) 00:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I think that at some point in the not too distant future, that Wikipedia may have to simply replace every one of its myriad of taxoboxes with some sort of fraction or fragment of a "Tree of Life" diagram, [6] or perhaps instead it will be a link to a huge searchable interactive 3-D diagram of tree of life instead. Taxoboxes are based on the idea of rigid ranks, and that idea appears to be gradually disappearing as a useful concept. Invertzoo (talk) 21:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: The system of filling in a taxobox as described below has been superceded by a better system. See the updated taxobox here: [7]. Thanks. Invertzoo (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The Neritimorpha example on the project page is helpful, but Bouchet & Rocroi page shows only two clades within clades. Nudipleura on the other hand goes down 5 or so. As I am making Nudibranch articles, I get stuck. If you could fill in the blanks below as a guide, that would help a lot. I need to associate the different 'font sizes' (if that makes sense), and name suffixes, with taxobox latin terms (if I am getting that right).
Mollusc - phylum
Gastropoda - classis (as in "I think I need classis")
After that, the B&R taxonomy goes like this:
Opisthobranchia - informal group
Nudipleura - clade
Nudibranchia - subclade
Euctenidiacea - clade
Doridacea - subclade
But in the taxobox it needs to be done like this. It looks weird here typed out like this but if you put it in the taxobox it comes out well. You can also see how he did it on the new page [8]. As JoJan says it is a compromise but it's all we can do right now. You can see what he says on his talk page, right at the end of the heading "Questions about a nudibranch taxobox" here: [9]
| classis = Gastropoda
| subclassis =
| superordo =
| unranked_ordo = clade Nudipleura
subclade Nudibranchia
| subordo =
| infraordo =
| unranked_familia = clade Euctenidiacea
subclade Doridacea
| superfamilia = Doridoidea
The lower ranks are pretty easy:
Doridoidea - superfamilia
Dorididae - familia
Halgerda - genus
H. willeyi - species
Halgerda willeyi - binomial
--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Expanded and more formatting by Invertzoo (talk) 13:22, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Update from Susan, Invertzoo (talk) 22:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Instead of notifying you each time I make a new stub that needs a check-over, perhaps you could visit User:Anna_Frodesiak once in a while. I keep a running list of new articles there. Thanks all!--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, OK, that sounds like a plan! Thanks Invertzoo (talk) 13:26, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I am responding to a request made at WP:3O for a third opinion regarding the use of composite images in articles covered by this project. I have read the existing discussion, however since it is spread over several sections and is now archived (prematurely in my view) I request that both parties briefly summarise their views here so we have a convenient basis for discussion. CrispMuncher (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Disagreement summarisation: We should not use composite images (example) for large taxa because:
I want to alert all Project Gastropods staff to the fact that we currently have a very major CopyVio problem which compromises the integrity of the encyclopedia, and opens the door for legal action against Wikipedia. This problem is spread across a huge number of gastropod articles (approximately 800 to 1,000) and it also spills over into the other molluscan groups. I am asking ask everyone who is available to help out with this in whatever way they can, but please do so in an organized and unified fashion so we all know what is going on. It seems that all of the articles in the Category: Molluscs of New Zealand [10] contain a great deal of text that is copied verbatim or almost verbatim from the 1979 book by Powell, New Zealand Mollusca. I have had no experience in dealing with a crisis of this magnitude. Any help that any of you can offer or suggest is more than welcome. Invertzoo (talk) 21:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Related discussion: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#A very large and widespread CopyVio problem.
How is possible to identify these copyvios:
Powell A. W. B., New Zealand Mollusca, William Collins Publishers Ltd, Auckland, New Zealand 1979 ISBN 0-00-216906-1
Search for articles with Powell's book as a reference
Will anybody be rewriting these texts? If so, then completely rewrited affected articles should be announced here. All other texts identified by a simple indetifying guidelines above, will be deleted. --Snek01 (talk) 00:03, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
List of corrected articles that contains Powell as a reference:
What about first getting a certain, and complete list of the articles in question by searching a specific string, or by the means already being used.
Then, look at the text in a sample of these articles to see if there's some kind of search and replace a bot could do. I am talking about changing the text just enough to circumvent any copyvio problem. Some examples:
New Zealand --> the country of New Zealand
native to --> originally from
belong to --> be part of
belongs to --> is part of
occurs in --> is found in
large --> big
mm --> millimetres
A list containing dozens of these could be prepared. This may be an alternative to text blanking, be a temporary fix, or might even be a permanent solution.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi. The ANI conversation is getting long and as it is far beyond the "admin-intervention" point, I'm hoping to shift it here. First, as I said there, I'm impressed that your wikiproject is concerned and prepared to be active in repairing this. Again, I'm sorry for the problem. I spend a lot of time cleaning up copyright issues that have been pointed out on Wikipedia, and I know how disruptive copyright violation is to the project, since it can be a serious setback for articles.
As a general response to various points at AN, most of which seem to have been made by your project's members: the procedure for handling suspected copyright problems is set out at Wikipedia:Copyright problems. If a source is identified, infringement is substantial, and the text cannot be immediately cleaned, the page is blanked with the copyright template and listed for investigation. If the text can be cleaned, it may sometimes be left in the article's history, though it's always a good idea to put a note at the article's talk page warning against restoration when the material is cleaned. There is a template for the purpose at ((cclean)), though any brief note works just as well. (People who are interested in knowing more how these are handled can see CP, linked above, or Wikipedia:Copyright problems/Advice for admins, which is the guidelines drafted for administrators addressing identified copyright problems.)
If there were not 1,000 articles or so involved here, it would probably be just as beneficial to clean the articles without going through the copyright problem tag, but there are 1,000 articles, and it is, as I mentioned above, standard to blank articles that contain copyrighted material pending cleanup. Once Wikipedia becomes aware of a copyright problem, it takes action. This is good legal protection for us, obviously. It demonstrates that we are proactive and responsible, which could become important should our right to claim shelter under the DMCA ever be challenged in court. (The DMCA is the US copyright act governing online content providers with respect to copyright.)
What should be done with these articles may depend on the wishes of this project. While I myself like to repair as many copyright infringing articles as I can, in the theory that its worth the extra effort not to lose important content if it can be salvaged, 1,000 possible infringements is a pretty daunting number. Does the project want to organize a task force to repair these? I'm still working on the long-term cleanup here as well as trying to maintain the general CP page (which took from 10:50 to 20:47 yesterday), and if it's up to me to rewrite these, it may be some years. :) I have no idea if a bot can be created to help with these. To me, bots are about as comprehensible as fairies. :)
Ordinarily, the "copyright problem" tag is only to be removed by an administrator. I don't know if others will agree, but I am inclined to think that this is probably a good place to "ignore all rules". If the material can be cleaned, then I think it probably should be, and the tag removed by the contributor who cleans it. But it is essential, really, that all contributors who work on this project are clear on how best to revise material. [Name withdrawn on request] asked at ANI, "At what point does rephrasing scientific concepts, classification, and data in a source, such as a short entry in a general work, constitute copyvio?" Sadly, there is no clear-cut line on this. US courts evaluate on a case-by-case basis. (US law governs copyright on Wikipedia, of course, because the Wikimedia Foundation is based in the US.) The Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing essay which Dcoetzee pulled together (and to which I have contributed) contains some links to external documents that can help. If you're interested in the legal background at all, there's a bit on my own userpage, here.) I think anyone who undertakes to clean these articles is simply going to have to do their best to remove the infringement and supply the information in original language. When in doubt, it may be best to remove the text altogether.
If others do not agree that this is a good case for "ignoring all rules", I'll be happy to review and resolve articles that have been revised. (It is, obviously, still possible to edit the article with the tag on it; the tag simply prevents us from publishing material that may not be legal for our use.)
If this project chooses to manually address these issues, it may be necessary to set up a temporary page to list them. I believe that the bot that handles copyright listings, DumbBot, will probably help with this. DumbBot trawls Wikipedia and finds articles that are labeled "copyright problem". If they are not listed at WP:CP, it lists them. If finding approximately 1,000 articles does not break DumbBot, it should generate a complete list of these tomorrow, which it will list at the bottom of Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2009 March 14. Presuming, again, that this task doesn't break the Bot, that list can be used to keep an eye on what is tagged and what has been cleaned. If a bot can somehow be used to resolve the problem, obviously, somebody's going to have to make and get clearance for the bot. I have no idea how this is done, other than that I know there is some kind of bot council. :)
The tone of the conversation about this on ANI leads me to concern that there may be some irritability about this matter. That's understandable. I presume nobody is happy to have this mess land on our laps, but I think it's important to remember that we're all working together to figure out the best way to handle it. I presume we're all agreed that we want to find a workable solution that serves the best interests of Wikipedia and its readers.
Please forgive me if I've been unclear, and I know this is long. Sorry.
Any thoughts on how best to proceed? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much Moonriddengirl, and thank you to all the admins who contributed their thoughts and responses on the ANI page. I am very relieved that this matter is now not just "my problem" to deal with.
I am also glad to have the tags blanking the text (other than the taxoboxes) on GB's mollusk contributions. I do think it is much better to be safe than sorry with this tagging and blanking, even if a number of articles have been tagged that may in fact turn out to be OK. After all, we are talking 1,000 articles here. This was an urgent problem of the highest priority, and something needed to be done right away. This was I think the fastest and safest compromise for a first step.
OK about how to proceed from here:
Whatever we decide to do, it needs to be done in an organized fashion with full disclosure and tight cooperation.
That's all I can think of right now. All good wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 13:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC) Tweaked for more clarity Invertzoo (talk) 15:24, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
For your information: I am posting this on the Project talk page since the discussion was started here, and it is relevant to the project.
Today Snek let me know (on my talk page) that he posted a message to User talk:CrispMuncher following CM's intervention as a "third opinion" on the question of composite images: "Hello, thank you for helping 3O composite images discussion. We need to move it outside, because we are not able to solve it in WikiProject Gastropods. I personally suppose to move it to Wikipedia talk:Image use policy. I suppose that WikiProject Tree of life will not be able to solve it solely, because it can get into the same situation as we. Announcement on WikiProject Tree of life will be fine. I can move it by myself also. Or I can move it and you can correct everything in my actions to be done independently. Or rather move it anywhere you want to. Can you do it, please? Be bold and tell me/us your decision. Thank you. I think that nobody is feeling "injured", that there is no problem with archiving (we can discuss about archived themes), that there was enough time to discussion for both sides. Personally I think, that there are nearly impossible things to compare like rules, aesthetic feelings, long-time and short time strategies, and so on. I think that this task covers broader/wider number of themes, than we even mentioned. That is why it is this task so difficult and that is why we did not reach concensus yet. So I am glad for your help. Have a nice weekend. --Snek01 (talk) 17:53, 14 March 2009 (UTC)"
I thought people would want to now that this process is continuing. Invertzoo (talk) 20:55, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Image use policy#Composite images. --Snek01 (talk) 19:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
We now have a subpage for attempting to organize the CopyVio taskforce. It is clearly linked at the top of this talk page, or find it here: [12]
I am about to create another subpage that contains a list of additional articles that GB worked on. His Category:Molluscs of Australia is very likely to be just as much of a problem as the New Zealand one. That category is about 400 more articles. Thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 21:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks so much Moonriddengirl. I guess we already have one convenient list by using the subcategories of Category:Molluscs of New Zealand. I thought as a start we could commence with the subcategory gastropods, and simply assign an alphabetical section to each of the taskforce members. This would be an experiment to see how well it goes (or not). Then if it is not really very workable we could go with the bot idea.
Last night I went through nearly a quarter of the list that Dcoetzee created (very useful). it made me realize that the whole Category:Molluscs of Australia also is almost certainly just as much of a CopyVio problem with about 400 more articles. I am also thinking that many other of GB's articles may be problematic too, but I don't have the time to check any on other subjects. Thanks again, Invertzoo (talk) 14:14, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
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Thanks. — Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 09:11, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)
I have just started in on uploading a few South African nudibranchs to the wikipedia and would like to ask how flexible article subheadings are. I see 'Life habits' is often used as a subheading for information involving food/mating. Is this required, or may I use 'Natural History' instead? Seascapeza (talk) 09:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I asked a question about categorizing fossil/prehistoric/extinct gastropods at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palaeontology#Category Extinct gastropods. --Snek01 (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Link to paleo-mollusc-stub and paleo-gastropod-stub discussion: User talk:Abyssal#Stubs 2. --Snek01 (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is a new barnstar that you might wish to hand out as appropriate. Tim Ross (talk) 15:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The Malacology Barnstar | ||
Awarded to recognize great devotion in the creation and maintenance of high quality articles related to members of the phylum Mollusca. Thank you! |
Wikipedia:Bot requests/Archive 26#Robot for WikiProject Gastropods is still waiting for approving. There was already enough time to check the task, so I suppose that it is OK. --Snek01 (talk) 18:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Some bot tasks are waiting for approval from a few other project members, so please go over there, read the suggestions, and if you approve please say so there. Then the bot will be able to run and fix all these items to save us having to do it all by hand. Thanks. The info is here: User talk:AnomieBOT/Archive 4#Robot for WikiProject Gastropods. Best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 17:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
You might like to read this: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_life#Did_you_know_that_you_can_italicise_titles.3F. I spotted a few article linked to on this page that need it doing. Smartse (talk) 14:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi to my fellow project editors. In about 10 days' time, on Saturday July 25th, I will be part of a panel at this upcoming conference in NYC. I will be giving a brief presentation on the progress of our project over the 5 years it has been in existence, and our hopes for the future. If anyone would like to suggest to me some input on this, please go ahead. Best to all, Invertzoo (talk) 19:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi folks! I just made Tambja morosa. As usual, I am confused about the order and family and such. The lead is so way off, I think I have described it as a kind of omelette. Thanks--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I started Cylindrobullida, Acochlidiacea, Limacoid clade, Ptenoglossa, Architaenioglossa and Umbraculida. I couldn't find photos for a couple. I put Limacoid clade in Limacoid with a redirect from Limacoid clade. If I did it wrong, please just switch it. I will take a crack at a few superfamilies when I can. (I will start with the Brady Bunch and work my way through the Jackson 5 down to the Osmonds. I am not sure about the Baldwins.)--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I added Euctenidiacea, Dexiarchia, Pseudoeuctenidiacea, Cladobranchia, Euarminida, Aeolidida, Dendronotida. I had no guide for the taxoboxes because they are all too far down the line, if you know what I mean. So, they are pretty messy.
In the Taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Bouchet & Rocroi, Stills and Nash, 2005) there is Euarminica in the menu at near the top, but it is named Euarminida down at the bottom. I don't know the difference. OK, it was supposed to be Euarminida, it was a typo, the only one in that taxonomy I think. Invertzoo (talk) 21:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I know these aren't the superfamilies you wanted me to do, but it meant getting rid of the last of the red links in the upper menu. I will now take a look at the superfamilies you probably intended. Cheers.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
A few more: Acavoidea, Rhytidoidea, Testacelloidea, Achatinoidea, Orthalicoidea, Clausilioidea, Phyllidioidea
--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
And a few more: Seguenzioidea, Scissurelloidea, Porcellioidea, Pleurotomarioidea, Murchisonioidea, Lepetodriloidea, Fissurelloidea, Eotomarioidea, Amberleyoidea
--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
And finally, a few more: Cingulopsoidea, Littorinoidea, Vanikoroidea, Velutinoidea, Vermetoidea, Xenophoroidea, Tonnoidea, Ampullarioidea, Viviparoidea --Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
And really finally, the last few: Cochlicopoidea, Pupilloidea, Enoidea, Athoracophoroidea, Succineoidea, Veronicelloidea, Otinoidea, Siphonarioidea, Chilinoidea, Acroloxoidea, Lymnaeoidea, Planorboidea.
That's the end of the red links from Pulmonata on down. And now I'm off to buy a guide dog.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I think I finished all the superfamilies that appear on Taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Bouchet & Rocroi, 2005) that are not fossils. Here are the latest ones.
Campaniloidea
Epitonioidea
Eulimoidea
Triphoroidea
Fionoidea
Flabellinoidea
Tritonioidea
Patelloidea
Nacelloidea
Lottioidea
Neolepetopsoidea
Oxynoacea
Placobranchacea
Umbraculoidea
Limapontioidea
Placobranchoidea
Oxynooidea
Glacidorboidea
Mathildoidea
Nerineoidea
Omalogyroidea
Rissoelloidea
Streptacidoidea
Valvatoidea
Acochlidioidea
Hedylopsoidea
Palliohedyloidea
Strubellioidea
Olivoidea
Pseudolivoidea
Runcinoidea
Cymbulioidea
Clionoidea
Hydromyloidea
When two or more families exist, I've put them in a taxonomy section in the body of the article instead of the taxobox. I did this because I noticed that the authority gets included and sometimes other information too. I hope that's okay.
I will do my best to go over the articles and try to find images where there are none, and add authorities. --Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Platyceratoidea, Oriostomatoidea, Nerrhenoidea, Acteoninoidea, Dendropupoidea, Paleostyloidea, Peruneloidea, Pseudomelanioidea, Subulitoidea
I think all of the superfamilies on the Taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Bouchet & Rocroi, 2005) page are now blue.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Monotypic ones are changed to redirects. For example Patellodidea → Patellidae, and so on. (They should be always redirected to the lowest taxonomic level.) --Snek01 (talk) 13:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I was very bold (because I have no access to full Hausdorf's article) and I have rewritten the article limacoid clade. This article needs your attention for its taxonomy and even for its typography. Category:Limacoid can be deleted (those seven superfamilies can be included in its supercategory, which is Category:Stylommatophora.) Also other related articles should be changed in correspondence with the limacoid clade article. --Snek01 (talk) 17:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
So, do you suggest that here on Wikipedia we use the name limacoid clade with no quote marks around it and no capital letter? Or should we follow B&R and call it "limacoid clade" using the quote marks? Best, Invertzoo (talk) 20:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC) I am willing to check all the uses of this and change them once we have for sure decided how to handle this name. Invertzoo (talk) 20:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
May I suggest swapping the current image for another one in the gastropod taxobox? (I'm not suggesting a composite as there are so many groups.) The page really has a lot of articles behind it, and has become quite a portal. Perhaps something more representative to someone who visits the page and doesn't really know what a gastropod is. How about a snail or something?--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I like it because it is joe snail and it is trucking along on a horizontal surface, which is very snailesque. But, I don't know how to change a background. Also, Helix pomatia represents gastropods as well as French cuisine. Perhaps something with a bit of colour might be good, like Cepaea hortensis.
Something that says "I am gastropod. Hear me roar." or more accurately "I am gastropod. Watch me move really slowly." Anyway, anything is better than a cowry, which everyone knows is a malevolent and evil gastropod. Let's give it a day or two. Now that you have weighed in, perhaps JoJan, Invertzoo, Snek01 et al. could make a suggestion too.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:01, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Hi Michal, I see you have added Helix pomatia. But now there are two images. This looks a bit strange to me.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I just added a slightly revised version of the Helix photo, with most of the (to me distracting) background removed. If you don't like it, just remove the "a" from the end of the file name to put the background in again. Tim Ross (talk) 12:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Please tell me what needs doing.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
The other project task is to use all of those images at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gastropods#Image_resources. Unfortunately no other tasks remain and everybody can edit whatever he/she wish. :) --Snek01 (talk) 16:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
And there a few more, but these are the best. JoJan (talk) 16:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Getting all of our taxonomy updated and consistent is a high priority for the Project.
Forgive me, I know this doesn't apply to several of us who are already doing this, however, a few people in the Project don't seem to know this yet, so here goes anyway: when creating new gastropod articles, please always adhere to the content of, and to our current way of displaying, the Bouchet and Rocroi taxonomy.
Most of us routinely use an article on a pre-existing taxon as a "template" when we are creating articles on other related taxa. Before you do this, please first check to see if the taxobox and text has been updated yet. If not, update that before you copy it, and then move on to creating the new articles. Otherwise we are creating new articles faster than we are updating the pre-existing ones.
Also, if any one of us happens to look at a gastropod species article for any reason, and it still has the old taxonomy, even if you don't feel like updating it and its relatives right now, please at least delete the old taxonomy between superfamily and class. And if you can spare the time, please go up to the genus level or family level or whatever is the highest level that still has out-of date taxonomy, and update that taxobox.
Anyone who would like to help with the process of updating taxonomy in taxoboxes, please let me know. Maybe we can organize to do this, or check this, one superfamily at a time. Once we get all the taxonomy updated, new people creating new articles (which happens fairly often) are much more likely to end up incorporating the up-to-date taxonomy, which is better for everyone concerned.
Best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 14:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Is there possible to have universal sections in all (in majority) of gastropod wikipedia articles? I presume that yes, because all gastropod species are quite similar.
I presume, that featured quality gastropod article would have structure similar like this: (updated --Snek01 (talk) 12:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC))
for snails:
for slugs: - there is possible to have external anatomy described in "Description" section and "Internal anatomy" in subsection like this (there is no need to have "External anatomy" subsection):
Notes to Original description: only if already in public domain. Possibilities:
Guideline Wikipedia:Layout#Headings and sections recommends (not dictates) that sections should be neither very short nor very long. This is ideal stage. This everybody agree but it is not always easy to do it according this only aesthetical recommendation.
I presume that featured article will have all these sections well expanded. But what about other articles that are short yet (or in minor cases, where is not enough knowledge about some aspect of the species)? I presume, that a reader expect the same sections and that he expect such sections, that are in featured articles. So I think, that even in shorter articles a reader expect the same section to easily orientate. In my broader point of I think, that the Layout guideline only states, that section should not unreasonably very short. So I think, that it is possible to make even short sections, if it is reasonable. Such short sections are generally accepted in stubs, in larger articles, and even in good articles.
There are possibilities:
ad 1 and ad 4) Very uneffective for our limited human resources. Every article would have always variable number of sections of varibale names, which is not friendly for readers.
ad 2) Subsections could be merged into its sections. That is possible in Description section, Distribution section, and in Ecology section. However it is ineffective to merge "Distribution & habitat" section, because it is always (I think) incompatible with featured gastropod articles (every featured article will have its sections separate, and "Habitat" as a subsection). I think, that section "Distribution" and section "Ecology" should always be separated, even if very short in some cases.
ad 3) I think that wikiproject gastropods can follow this number 3. If such subsections are already written, then do not merge them until it is evident that the subsection is not possible to expand according todays knowledge. If is subsection unexpandable, then follow possibility 2.
I think, that the guideline Layout is good, but it is not practical to apply it always. It could be applied merging some subsections into sections, but is is very contraproductive merging randomly choosen sections into larger sections for aesthetic reasons only. I think that sections are like red links, they are useful idicating what should be expanded. I think that every section mentioned above are useful and can be applied even if short (possibility number 3). For example section Feeding habits is so important - every species should contain it - that should be written always.
We can also presume, that in some cases there will be shorter sections in featured gastropod articles, than in for example vertebrates, because some of them are only little known and there is only few information available to human kind. Should there be different sections then? No, there should be the same and they will be normally shorter. This not a reason to refuse stable names of sections in such articles. Stable sections are also good to be possible to make wikilinks directly into certain sections.
User:Hamiltonstone for example suggested to "follow a pattern from some of them [good articles about organisms] rather than creating one from scratch for the gastropods." He also suggest to use "use more general headings". What are the more general headings than those mentioned above? These headings are well-established but if somebody show a way how to make them more compatible with other thousands of existing wikipedia articles, then make some proposal to Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods/Guidelines. However I think, that it is impossible to make it much more compatible, because gastropods naturally demands a different sections than for example birds, and mammals. It is not easy to show such differences in large scale, because there are only few (two for now?) featured articles on invertebrates. One of them is for example Myxobolus cerebralis - see completely different names of sections, or Chrysiridia rhipheus. These section for gastropods should not be unnaturally and artificially forced to look like a article about a bird. I think that all sections in gastropods now used for a long time are all right and should not be changed. --Snek01 (talk) 16:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Instead of Distribution and habitat! See ad 2) above. These section are "usually intimately" together in large amount or wiki articles. This is an error and thus it is not possible. Errors are not welcomed on wiki. Reader should think, that habitat does not belong to Ecology.
If there will be "Ecology" section (and nobody is against), then there is absolutely necessary to have "Habitat" inside this "Ecology" section. It is necessary for gastropods, because Habitat it is one of the most important thing for gastropods. It is also more or less important for insect, and less important for for example vertebrates (than for gastropods). "Habitat" always belong to "Ecology". This is an logical error if some articles have "Distribution and habitat" and "Ecology". Such articles should correct this somehow. Separated "Distribution" section and separated "Habitat" section is also necessary to better understand the described theme (gastropods) and it is also important from strategic point, because these section should be expanded. It is contraproductive to mix these section. Minor(?) point of view is that describing these themes separated is easier to referencing and it also prevent incorrect generalizing.
There are many reasons to have these section separated and there are no well-grounded reasons to have them together.
There are two acceptable possibilities:
option 1 - this structure is on Encyclopedia of Life. This structure is not used on wiki.
option 2 - this structure is used in all gastropod articles (exept of one)
option 3 - unacceptable for gastropods because of unlogical incorporation of habitat outside Ecology. This is unacceptable even if gastropod articles were incompatible with other animal articles.
--Snek01 (talk) 12:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Although it is very detail, there is proposed to used "Feeding habits" (sub)section. Exactly this name is used in all gastropod articles. There could be possible to use "Feeding" also. I can not evaluate such English detail by myself. Change is possible, but it must be reasonable. Only reasonable changes can be accepted. Using the same names of sections is important for stability per Wikipedia:Manual of Style. --Snek01 (talk) 14:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
As simple as possible: The Philcha's proposed structure is not bad. But the already used gastropod structure is better, because it better fits for gastropod article needs. (I can provide details if needed.) Already used structure for gastropods is universally adaptable for other animals and plants, so all animals should taken this structure. The structure of gastropod articles is good. It is not bad. It is used reasonably and practically. It will not unreasonably adapt structure from other sister projects. It could adapt structure from ascendant wikiprojects: WikiProject Science, WikiProject Biology, WikiProject Tree of Life, WikiProject Animals. But they have no universal section rules. Feel free to start discussion there. (Meantime reviewers of articles should accept this used structure as a standard and do not restrain GA article nominees.) --Snek01 (talk) 15:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The only new theme is proposal of "Evolutionary history". OK, this is good. I understand this, that this caption is for genera and higher taxa mainly, because if there is something about fossils of certain species of gastropods in the article, then it is placed in section where fossils of this species are distributed. Subsection of this I consider useless. The only good example for gastropods is Pleurotomarioidea. But if somebody will reasonably use this section in a species article, then it will be OK also. --Snek01 (talk) 15:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
If somebody wants any change, then should write why certain way is bad, and why future way will be better. --Snek01 (talk) 15:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Look at for example article Chittenango ovate amber snail. The text is written in the order as you proposed (except of taxonomy, but a reader can skip this). The only "problem" is that sections are named differently from your proposal. Despite this, the article is all right and easily understandable. All caption names are key features for gastropods. Why would you like to change it? You are not proposing changes for very few articles, but for 80.000 species of gastropods. This is enough to have its own structure and the only other acceptable universal structure is for all animals. Even then gastropods will tend to have its own structure. I can not imagine, how someone could prohibit for example "Shell description" section. --Snek01 (talk) 20:11, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I finished the families on the Bouchet and Rocroi page except for some of the Paleozoic and Basal ones as Michal says he will do that bunch. (I did Vetigastropoda and Patellogastropoda before I knew that I should have left those). After that, everything should be blue.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
The gastropod links in the Taxonomy_of_the_Gastropoda_(Bouchet_&_Rocroi,_2005) article are now all blue. --Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I was just thinking about it, but maybe we could follow standards or some kind of "recipe" to describe gastropod shells in the project articles. Like, for example, starting the description by the anterior shell structures (like the anterior siphonal canal) and ending it with posterior structures (apex), or vice versa. Most descriptions I find in the literature follow a posterior -> anterior model, but not all of them. What is your opinion? Does it really matter in the end? Should we leave it as it is? --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 02:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The [[gastropod shell|shell]] is xxxx. The shape of the shell is xxxx. The color of the shell is xxxxx. The shell has xxxx-xxxx [[whorl (mollusc)|whorls]]. The [[Spire (mollusc)|spire]] is xxxx. The [[Suture (gastropod)|suture]] is xxxxx. The [[Aperture (mollusc)|aperture]] is yyy. The width of the aperture is xx.xx-xx.xx mm, the height of aperture is xx.xx-xx.xx mm. The width of the adult shell is xx.xx-xx.xx mm, the height is xx.xx-xx.xx mm.
Hey guys, are you aware that www.tolweb.org has some material under CC license that might be useful in your articles. Several editors licence text and picutres under a CC licence, e.g. http://www.tolweb.org/Carinariidae/28733 or http://www.tolweb.org/Cardiapoda/28742. Just wanted to mention that, maybe you know it already! Greetings --hroest 14:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
How should be rotated images of cap like shells? They should be approximately compatible with other shell images and at least one position should be a position of a live animal.
possibility 1:
The most compatible image of cap-like shell with a coiled shell is like this (all cap-like shells have head region on the left and so they show left side on lateral view):
But what to do, if we have no left side available, but instead of it we have an image of right side only? Then we can compatibly rotate only dorsal and ventral view. The image of right side should be as separate file only. An example:
The conclusion is: there should always be mentioned, where is head region in description of cap-like shells.
There is also an alternative how to rotate cap-like shell. Sometimes they have head region on the upper side of the image in various books too. example 1, example 2. This could be also good, but lateral views should also be placed horizontally anyway.
So if we have a choice, then we prefer images with head region on the left for the best of images with each other and for easier understanding by readers. Every drawings can be adapted according to this. Some photos can be adapted too, unfortunatelly some not. --Snek01 (talk) 21:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I must confess that I didn't understand your question either, Susan! Could you explain it in detail? What is the point of reference? I mean, the terrestrial land snail has its head towards the right in reference to what exactly?--Daniel Cavallari (talk) 00:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
That way that I named "approximately compatible" is only in terminology, because coiled and non-coiled are incomparable. I think, this theoretical comparison with a right coiled shell will fail with a comparison with left coiled shells.
possibility 2:
OK, there is possible to have rotated cap-like shells rotated heads towards the top of the page.
This way seems to trying to be de facto standard in scientific literature in ~last 60 years. (In one of a new book from my library there are 20 cap like shells photos in a horizontal way. And there are 3 various(!) exceptions among depicting cap like shells in horizontal way. The book was written by an expert, so standardization does not exist in this.) OK, there can be both possible ways.
Other way is like this:
while first two images can be (and probably usually will be) in one file. The lateral view should be in the sole (image) file in this way.
Conclusion proposal: (by Snek01)
--Snek01 (talk) 02:33, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I think, that this guideline is necessary. Because if everybody will see at the images above, he/she will need to think about the images for a while, even if everything is described here in this discussion and images are have simple, correct and clear captions. It is impossible to decide for a non-expert where is the head region on a randomly rotated image, because there are no hints for a such decision (apex is pointing in a different way in a different groups of gastropods and there are no other universal hints.) Standardization and image description is the only way. --Snek01 (talk) 02:33, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The user smallislander, on Flickr, has a HUGE collection of images. Most of them are Creative Commons 2.0, usable in wikipedia. There are TONS of images of gastropod and bivalve shells. Check it out! http://www.flickr.com/photos/28722516@N02/ --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 00:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Some identification needed. --Snek01 (talk) 14:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Althought it works, File:Little Bear Conch - Strombus Urceus.shell001.jpg would be better named File:Strombus urceus shell.jpg. This is nearly internationaly and without typographic errors. --Snek01 (talk) 22:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Mind the synonyms, especially for Cypraea, used to identify the snails ! Many species belong to other genera, such as Erosaria and Palmadusta ! JoJan (talk) 18:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
One thing I wanted to point out here is that Wikipedia articles are supposed to be as intelligible as is reasonably possible to non-specialists. Our subject has a great deal of fancy terminology, and a lot of that terminology is more or less indispensable to those of us who are professionals. However we should all strive to keep at least the intro of all of our articles quite intelligible to lay people. In your intros, say "land snail" before you say "terrestrial gastropod" and so on with similar items.
Also please briefly define at least some of the other terms you use in the article, when and as you use them, even though you may already be providing a blue link, which might seem perfectly sufficient to you.
Here is a quote (my emphasis) from the Wikipedia guideline [20] on Jargon: "Some articles may never become accessible to a wide readership, but most articles using academic or professional terms should contain more explanation at a more basic level than would be available in the typical academic paper or textbook".
Also if it is possible to avoid using items of fancy but opaque terminology in some parts of the article, please do so as much as you reasonably can without compromising the information.
OK, hope this is not too much of a pain to think about. Many good wishes to all, Invertzoo (talk) 21:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
I have created a bot that will be using a database of prehistoric genus information to fill in the tables on pages like List of prehistoric starfish#The list. Please see its bot request and comment there. Suggestions for improvements and/or people willing to spot check its work are welcome and appreciated.
Thank you, ThaddeusB (talk) 02:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Be careful of difficult taxonomy with uncertain taxa: Taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Bouchet & Rocroi, 2005). Uncertain Monoplacophora/Gastropoda should be probably on separate list. --Snek01 (talk) 09:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi folks, I have just expanded Cypraea tigris fivefold for a DYK, but it would be great to have some referencing from books for it. I have never done a gastropod article before so was/am all at sea with it :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
PS: I just thought that if Cypraea tigris is a stub, then loads of well-known shells are likely to be as well, and if they can be expanded fivefold within a five day period then they are eligible here for DYK on the main page. This is a good stepping stone to GA and beyond. I think the leopard slug has potential for a GA too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Now we have at least a stub article for every gastropod family, on the suggestion of User:Xufanc, I am putting out a request for people who have correctly-identified seashells in their possession, or who live by the sea, and who enjoy photography, to start making and uploading images of gastropod shells (in good condition) to illustrate genus articles that have no image, or in order for us to be able to create new genus articles as well as a species article with an illustration.
In particular Xufanc was thinking of shells of all the various genera within the marine family Columbellidae, the dove shells, because he just recently created an article for Mitrella (genus), which needs an image. There are of course many genera in many families marine and otherwise, that very much need a decent illustration. I for one confess to having a lot of shells, but generally (at least right now) I am very busy doing updating and clean-up rather than making images. But if anyone feels inspired to make and upload images (perhaps Columbellids for Xufanc), they would be very welcome. And of course we have a variety of good images already that are waiting for an article, if people would like to write a stub to go along with them. All good wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 21:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I wanted to come back on this topic and say that subspecies articles that have already been created, (even the ones that were originally copied verbatim from the Powell book) are (I now think) mostly fine to be left intact, and I also think that new subspecies articles are appropriate to create, if there is a good reason to create them. Best, Invertzoo (talk) 20:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Can I just make the point that in general mention of and /or coverage of subspecies should be kept within the species article, rather than the subspecies being a separate article in its own right? We have a huge number of separate subspecies stubs that were created by User:GrahamBould, and which would be better as simple species articles with notes on the subspecies. I am pruning down a few of them as I go along but I can't do them all so I am asking other contributors to do the same when they come across them. Thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 21:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry that my availability has been patchy, I have left open Socorro springsnail and Kerry Slug for a while as I feel that keeping the GAN platform open to get some pioneer gastropod articles through eventually is a great start for a wikiproject. I had abit of a look at Limax maximus, but not Utah roundmouth snail yet. The other one that interests me is (obviously) Cypraea tigris. The sourcing for any/all is a barrier, and more and more getting articles to Good or Featured status does involve a bit of legwork to a library or at least getting some fulltext of articles for which the abstract is only viewable online. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Declining_number_of_hooks - so good time for some 5x expansions :)
Background:' The following articles contain empty tables of prehistoric genus of varying types of creatures. A bot has been written by me that can fill them in using data from paleodb.org and Sepkoski. The task is currently stalled due to some concern about my own lack of expert knowledge on the subject.
Needed: I need someone with "expert" knowledge (defined as a passion for the subject matter & the ability to easily spot blatant errors) to review the potential bot output of any one of the following articles of his or her choosing:
The articles:
Sample page: A sample page is available for viewing here. This is provided to give you an idea about what the output will look like, but shouldn't be viewed as a final product as it (currently) includes at least one error that will be corrected shortly.
What I want: Basically, I want someone to look over an entire table (of their choice) and say either "I don't see any obvious errors" or "there are a few errors such as X,Y,Z." I will then figure out the cause of the errors (if any), fix the code, and re-run to make sure the errors are gone.
Reward: Wikipedia gets a lot of valuable science content. I get this stalled project off my to-do list. You get a "warm fuzzy" for helping improve Wikipedia in a significant way, my gratitude, and a token of my appreciation.
Let me know if interest, ThaddeusB (talk) 03:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Anyone who can help out in any way (many non-technical things need doing such as improving the prose and expanding the intro to reflect the article content) with fixing up the article Kerry slug, please take a look at the comments here [23] as well as looking at the article itself. Many thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 13:22, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I went ahead and made Eustrombus gigas a GA nominee. Let's hope it may succeed. --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 20:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)