![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2 July 2024. The result of the discussion was Speedy Keep. |
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The section specifically says there are ties to increased vandalism in Portland. Npthing about those fires is Canadian. If you want to write about them start another article or rename this one Elinruby (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
I have restored this content. The reality is that there were at least two incidents of vandalism against Catholic churches in the US elicited coverage in reliable sources. These two incidents were tied to the Canadian church fires and the resurgence of interest in the Indigenous gravesites. The removal of other material, like the non-RS publications, are good things. But these are documented incidents of spillover, so they merit inclusion. Discussion elsewhere seems to agree. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
The criterion for inclusion should be whether connections have been made in rs. This article should report opinions, not evaluate them. Some editors seem to be confusing the presentations of opinions and analysis reported in reliable sources with original research by editors. TFD (talk) 23:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Your reply is a bit confusing, but I think you're again asking me about the scope of this article. I've answered that for you a couple times (here's me on 28 June) and it's been addressed by a handful of other editors at NOR/N and the AfD. The article covers events of vandalism or arson that sources relate back to the upward trend of such events in the aftermath of gravesite announcements in Canada. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:54, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Your logic is inconsistent: you're not saying CNA is charged with evangelization, nor saying it's owned by the Catholic Church, but saying that it has a conflict of interest that precludes it from reporting on Catholic matters for identity reasons. However, other identity-based organizations are not subject to this same standard. Unless there's an exceptional argument hidden in the ellipsis that can overturn the previous discussion at NOR/N, I think we can safely lay this to rest. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
I still question the entire premise here, but ok, we can have a list of fire if we must, but we really need to demonstrate notability in that case. Elinruby (talk) 21:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
notabilityin regards to WP:N or in regards to encyclopedic relevancy? If the latter, I would encourage you to suggest a minimum standard. I think the current standard—an RS verifying that a fire occurred and that it was connected to the broader series of fires—is suitable. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
The article doesn't meet that in most of these cases. it's a list of random fires with zero followup as to outcome, interspersed with quotes saying that people are mad. Oh and let's not forget the schools getting renamed. What do they have to do with anything? Elinruby (talk) 22:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
And there have been how many of those exactly? With substantive mention? Less than ten is my estimate, with nine of them in 2021. It was a juicy rumor that didn't pan out. Elinruby (talk) 06:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
We are wasting a lot of time on arguments about lesser known sources when the same information is available in well-known ones. See for example an article from the CBC: "CBC investigation finds steep rise in church fires since reports of potential graves at residential schools....A researcher and some community leaders suggest Canada's colonial history and recent discoveries of potential burial sites at former residential schools may have lit the fuse."
No rs claim that these fires were set in response to the mass graves or who is behind them. Two fires were found to be accidental. OTOH, there are no claims in rs that there is no connection.
This should be straightforward: report what rs say.
~~~~ TFD (talk) 18:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
In Canada, dozens of churches have been torched or vandalized this summer following the discovery of more than 1,000 unmarked graves at former residential schools for Indigenous children. Most of the schools were operated by the Catholic Church.
On Canada Day, July 1, when many Canadians opted to replace celebrations with large vigils, one of the vandalism cases in Portland occurred amid an evening protest in the city.
An estimated 200 people gathered to watch a movie, hear speeches and walk through the neighborhood that includes St. Francis at St. Francis of Assisi — a parish that long has ministered to area homeless through its dining hall.
The poster advertising the event described it as a "silent march and vigil to honor the Indigenous children and survivors of the U.S. and Canadian residential/boarding schools."
At the church, protesters stopped and children were encouraged to dip their hands in red paint and place them on the doors, columns and steps.
In addition to the fires, a series of churches were damaged overnight on June 30 in the province of Alberta’s largest city, Calgary, by vandals who smeared red and orange paint over their facades and scrawled the numbers "215" and "751" on them, references to the numbers of graves found at two separate school sites.Given the new refined scope of this article, I agree that this probably fits more for the parent article (alongside a handful of other references) to source a short statement like "There were also instances of vandalism." However, the parent article is unstable at present, so I'm not going to place it there. Up to you if you want to, but it's getting shuffled a lot right now to undo some denialist stuff and I don't want to add further to the quagmire. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I will use this section to compare statements made in the article and see if there's anything in the sources cited to support said statements. Stay tuned, hopefully a fresh set of eyes helps here. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement in article | Does the cited source support this? |
---|---|
A report by CBC News in 2024 identified at least 24 arsons at Christian churches in Canada between May 2021 and December 2023. Of the arsons, nine resulted in arrests, with law enforcement not identifying a motive in incidents resulting in criminal charges. The investigation identified a relationship between the arsons and increased reporting on the gravesites. |
Yes to the 24 number per "Investigators have determined that 24 were deliberately set while others are still under investigation" but the source also notes that "33 Canadian churches that burned to the ground since May 2021". Yes to nine arrests but phrasing regarding the motive should be clearer: "Most of the fires remain unsolved. Of the 33 major church fires since 2021, just nine have led to arrests". |
On June 21, 2021, two Catholic church buildings in British Columbia were destroyed in fires: Sacred Heart Mission Church of Penticton |
Yes, source states "Bishop Gregory Bittman of Nelson said he was “very saddened” at the fires that destroyed Sacred Heart and St. Gregory’s churches." The source also verifies the date. [3] |
and St. Gregory Mission Church on Osoyoos land. |
Yes, the source verifies a fire happening the same day as Sacred Heart's and a Catholic bishop is quoted as saying that both these churches were destroyed. [4] |
St. Gregory's Church was constructed in 1910. The Osoyoos fire was about 40 kilometres south from the Penticton fire and began a few hours later. As of January 2024, neither fire had resulted in criminal charges. The congregation at Osoyoos began utilizing the band council office on Sundays and do not intend to rebuild their church. |
Yes, the caption on an image in the source verifies the 1910 date. No to direction? It's possible I'm visualizing this wrong but the source says "Hours earlier, someone also set fire to the Sacred Heart Church on the Penticton Indian Band about 40 kilometres north of Osoyoos." |
After further fires near Penticton following reports of over 900 unmarked graves discovered at former Canadian Indian residential school sites, Royal Canadian Mounted Police sergeant Jason Bayda said that the fires being at "four churches, all Catholic, all on indigenous land, that in itself is extremely suspicious". |
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On June 26, another two British Columbian Catholic churches–St. Ann's Church and Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church serving Chopaka–were also destroyed by fires declared "suspicious" by police. |
BBC source says these fires were declared suscipious by police but simply calls the church in Chopoka "Chopaka Church", doesn't explicitly say Our Lady of Lourdes. It does give the exact name for St. Ann's. Date given is more iffy, the article was published then and article says someone received a call "in the morning" about the fires, but this doesn't necessarily mean that morning. [5] I'd remove the reference to the extra source given here because it doesn't verify any of this really. [6] |
A fire at an Anglican church was also discovered that day, but it was extinguished with minimal damage. |
Yes, might not want to say "that day" given what I wrote above, but this source does explicitly confirm the June 26 date. The source also verifies the rest of the statement. |
St. Kateri Tekakwitha Church in Indian Brook, Nova Scotia, suffered a fire causing damage to the building on June 30, 2021. Police described the fire at St. Kateri Tekakwitha Church as "suspicious" and announced an investigation, adding that the church fires in western Canada were "something that our investigators will certainly be aware of when they're conducting this investigation". |
Yes, although the fire marshall is also quoted as saying "he doesn't know why the fire was deemed suspicious, but that the determination is often made if accelerants are located at the scene, or if witness statements or surveillance video indicate suspicious circumstances". |
Another fire occurred on June 30, 2021, at St. Jean Baptiste Church in Morinville, Alberta. The fire was immediately deemed suspicious by investigators, but no charges have been made in relation to the fire as of 2024. The 1908-built church was completely destroyed. Fundraising by the congregation aimed to support construction on a new church building, to begin in spring 2024 with the goal of completing by Christmas in 2025. The destroyed church's bells were recovered and are set to be installed in the new church. |
Yes, although the source states that the first mass was held there in 1908 which doesn't necessarily mean that was the same year it was built, especially since said mass took place on New Year's Day. |
Two fires on the night of July 1–2 destroyed an Anglican church on native land and damaged another. The fire that destroyed the abandoned 108-year-old St. Paul's Anglican Church of New Hazelton, British Columbia, was the second suspicious fire at that church in a week; a smaller fire had damaged a door. |
No to the date. Source says "were destroyed by fires early Saturday" about two other church fires and article was published on June 28, so this couldn't have taken place in the future. The source verifies that St. Paul's Anglican Church burned but doesn't state the exact age, just that it was built in the 1800s and was also an abandoned church. The source also states it wasn't affiliated with residential schools. No to anything about a door and the church wasn't destroyed as it "was quickly extinguished with minimal damage and no injuries". |
Authorities worried the flames could spark wildfires |
This source actually verifies the text written above, although |
A separate fire, also in British Columbia, did significant damage to a portion of the St. Columba Anglican Church in Tofino. |
Debatable on what is meant by significant damage to a portionwith detail given in source, as it says the "fire destroyed part of a wall, but was extinguished before any more damage was done." Part of a wall can mean varying levels of damage. |
A RCMP investigation was launched shortly after what police initially determined to be an "incendiary device" was thrown through the window of St. Patrick Co-Cathedral in Yellowknife, resulting in moderate damage. |
Yes to fire existing, name and location. No to incendiary device as the source says "The cause of the fire isn't yet known, though a statement from the diocese that oversees the church suggested it involved an incendiary device." A statement from the diocese is not equivalent to police ruling this was the cause. No to moderate damage as the source explicitly says "minor damage". |
The Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Church in Redberry Lake burned to the ground on the afternoon of July 8; this fire was also called "suspicious" by the RCMP. |
Yes. |
On July 9, the Our Lady of Mercy Roman Catholic Church was destroyed by arson. The church was located in the Kehewin Cree Nation, south of Bonnyville, and was slated for demolition after it was left vacant for "several years". A youth was arrested by the Bonnyville RCMP and charged for the arson. The charged youth was released with a court date set for September 2021. |
Yes. |
A report released by CBC News in January 2024 identified 24 arsons and five suspected arsons at Christian churches in Canada after May 2021. Of the 24 arsons, nine resulted in arrests, with law enforcement not identifying a motive in incidents resulting in criminal charges, though police reported awareness of "potential motivators". Two fires at Canadian churches during the May 2021–December 2023 period covered by the CBC report were ruled accidental by investigators; 14 churches were destroyed by fires in the period between January 1, 2019 and May 2021. Two other incidents of church fires, both in rural Alberta during 2023, resulted in two pairs of people receiving criminal charges. |
Everything seems fine except the last sentence. The source states "Alberta RCMP also charted a significant rise in overall arson attacks on church properties in the province. There were eight fires between May 2019 and May 2021, and 29 fires between June 2021 and September 2023" but I'm not seeing anything about two specific incidents that involved criminal charges unless I'm missing something. I'm also not seeing anything explicitly saying rural Alberta although the areas under RCMP jurisdiction part is mentioned (which would imply that it's rural but is a possible synthy conclusion to make). |
Several motives have been speculated regarding the arsons. In June 2021, following the Penticton and Osoyoos fires, government investigators suggested possible motives included the targeting of Indigenous communities and anger towards the Catholic Church over their role in operating residential schools between 1883 and 1996 |
No, the source states that "He said that police were not speculating on the circumstances." Information about speculated motives are provided by Indigenous leaders and a fire department chief. |
In July 2021, after additional fires, fire chiefs pointed to the fires beginning on National Indigenous Peoples Day when asserting that the fires were not coincidental. |
Yes, the source states "Fire chiefs said the timing of the blazes, which began on National Indigenous People’s Day, did not seem coincidental." I think we should be careful on the phrasing here but the source does verify this statement. |
A July 2021 Wall Street Journal story noted that nobody had claimed responsibility for the fires and added that both Canadian law enforcement and politicians speculated "the churches are being targeted by those angry about the recent discovery of unmarked graves", but that Canadian police did not have evidence of a connection "in most cases". |
A paywalled source I do not have access to, unless this is a duplicate ref to the WSJ source cited earlier on. |
The January 2024 CBC News investigation cited community leaders and an Indigenous history research that identified a relationship between the arsons and anger regarding the gravesites. The same investigation quoted one law enforcement official as saying that suspected motivations appeared "as varied as the people themselves", who came "from all walks of civil life, many different backgrounds". |
I commented on the WP:HEADLINE aspect below in regards to "identified a relationship between the arsons and anger regarding the gravesites". The quote is present in the source. |
The CBC News investigation identified that the church arsons began following the announcement of potential unmarked gravesites at the site of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School. Scholar of Indigenous Canadian history Paulina Johnson commented on the church fires, saying "for many Indigenous peoples, it gives them a voice, because for the longest time Canada hasn't really hasn't actually acknowledged us", adding she believed that the failure to address injustices against Indigenous peoples was responsible for the church fires. |
Video source that I will watch when I don't have a horrible headache. |
Chief Greg Gabriel of the Penticton Indian Band expressed "anger" at the fires, stating that any act of arson was "unacceptable" |
No, there is no Chief Greg Gabriel quoted in this source. I think there may have been a mix-up here with some other cited source. |
Grand Chief Stewart Philip of the Union of BC Indian Chiefs and Chief Clarence Louie of the Osoyoos Indian Band denounced the fires, but said they were "not really surprising" following the discovery of unmarked graves at residential schools. Louie declared the fires "a criminal act" and "arson". |
Yes, both sources verify these statements. |
Grand Chief Arthur Noskey of the Treaty 8 First Nations of Alberta and Loon River First Nation said the churches needed protecting as "potential evidence sites" and that sites of former residential schools need to be protected. |
Yes, the source supports this. I will also note that the source states "Even though speculation has been widespread, no official connection between a string of church burnings that have happened across Canada in recent days and the unmarked grave sites has been made." |
Chief Keith Crow of the Lower Similkameen Indian Band (location of the Chopaka church) stated "I'm angry ... I don't see any positive coming from this and it's going to be tough." |
Yes. |
Alberta Premier Jason Kenney declared on June 30 that the Morinville fire "appears to have been a criminal act of hate inspired violence." |
Yes. |
On July 2, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called the vandalism and arson attacks targeting Canadian churches "wrong and unacceptable", |
The quote's exact phrasing is "It is unacceptable and wrong that acts of vandalism and arson are being seen across the country, including against Catholic churches". |
while later adding that the anger directed towards the church was "fully understandable" and "people have gone decades and even generations living with intergenerational trauma, with outcomes and institutional racism that has created extreme difficulties for Indigenous peoples across this country that are also the legacy of residential schools" |
Trudeau is partially quoted here but not the whole way. The CBC source cited above verifies the entire quote so I'd just move the ref to the end of the sentence to fix that. I'm also not sure why the cited source says "Indian County Today" when it's actually the Calgary Herald. |
Trudeau, in his comments on the fires, added that the anger towards the Catholic Church was "fully understandable given the shameful history". |
Another incorrect citation as this is to PBS News and not NPR. It was originally published by the Associated Press. Trudeau is only partially quoted here as well, but reciting to the above Calgary Herald source would support this (it is not present in the CBC quotes). |
Former chief Chastity Daniels of the Gitwangak First Nation condemned the July 1 fire at St. Paul's Anglican Church saying "it wasn't a Catholic church, it was an Anglican church and there's nothing but good memories in that church for our community." |
Yes. |
A group of residential school survivors called for people to stop burning and defacing churches. Jenn Allan-Riley, a Sixties Scoop survivor and daughter of a residential school survivor, stated that "Burning down churches is not in solidarity with us Indigenous people" and "we do not destroy other people's places of worship" |
Yes although first source says "group" and second source says "Two Indigenous leaders are calling for an end to church burning, including an assistant Pentecostal minister." Given the thumbnail for the Global News video shows three people, I'm inclined to think the latter CTV news description is more accurate. |
Harsha Walia, the executive director of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association responded to reports of fires at indigenous Catholic parishes with a tweet on June 30 that read "burn it all down". Some members of the First Nations community criticized her but the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs expressed support for her without mentioning the controversial tweet. |
She did say "burn it all down" but Global News has issued a correction at the top of the article that states "This story has been updated with additional Tweets from Naomi Sayers which state: “Burn it all down. Doesn’t literally mean, burn it down.” Ms. Sayers subsequently advised Global News, through her lawyer, that she doesn’t support burning down churches." The last sentence is true but possible synth because the article just quotes the tweet expressing their support of Walia. Only one specific person (Chris Sankey) is mentioned as criticizing her for this tweet, but the article does state "The tweet set off a firestorm on social media". |
She resigned as executive director of the BC Civil Liberties Association over the issue on July 16, 2021. |
Yes. |
No to the last sentence, this appears to be original research, as the article's subheading reads "CBC investigation finds steep rise in church fires since reports of potential graves at residential schools". ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I know that the article states that "No one has ever been charged in either the Osyoos or Penticton fires", my rationale above is why we might not necessarily want to say something like that in the article. I did, however, miss that subheading. I'd make it clearer that it's CBC making this connection and not official police investigations into the matter. As for the July 1-2 dates, where does it confirm all the dates? I really am just seeing support for July 1 but it's possible I'm missing something. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
News headlines—including subheadlines—are not a reliable source.Which would suggest we don't want to have that sentence even if it might not be per se OR. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
@Clovermoss: I don't know why I didn't look for one before, but it only now occurred to me that the CBC News report probably also got a video feature. It did—8:46 in length—and it's chock-full of added context to the online written story and adds some material otherwise wholly left out. Specifically, it establishes the Osoyoos church fire as "a crime scene" (0:10), provides the only source I'm aware of that a conviction was made in the Alberta Cree church fire (3:44), states "the surge in church fires began following the discovery of potential unmarked graves" (4:06), and more firmly establishes Paulina Johnson's credentials as an expert in Indigenous resistance and adds context to her perspective that the fires were "much more than just arson" but instead acts made in the context of a broader symbolic resistance (6:35). It also points out that the RCMP has not found evidence to link the fires (3:57), though this statement is a bit vague and might mean a.) the fires weren't coordinated (which is my interpretation) or b.) RCMP is asserting they have absolutely zero evidence that the fires have anything in common. Anyhow, I'll add some material from this video over the next 24 (I owe two GANs my attention). Let me know if you have playback issues; I did. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
government investigators suggested possible motives. That is actually verified in the source. See "Bob Graham, chief of the Oliver Fire Department, which fought the St. Gregory’s fire and is helping investigate it" as the fire chief. I'm not sure why you reported that as false, considering a government investigator is quoted making that speculation. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)