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The Republic of Greece might not recognize ethnic minorities among its citizens, but it is a period-ending fact the presence of the Arvanites, Albanians who have lived in Greece for centuries. Please be honest and accept that Arvanties are part of the Albanian ethnic family by all the means.--Pjetër Bogdani jr. 19:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
What kind of relation do you have with Arvanites? Have you ever met any? Have you ever seen any? If I were of Arvanite origin, how would I be able to prove it, since there is no distiction between Arvanites and Cretan Greeks? This fact automatically makes arvanites incapable of editing this article. Arvanites were probably Albanians in the 13th century, are you happier now? However, both modern Arvanites and modern Albanians have significantly changed since then in every single aspect. They have changed so much as to be considered a completely different ethnic group, with some distant common linguistic origin. Today Arvanites are Greek nationals, and as much ethically Greek as the Normans are French. The fact is that there's no ethnic distinction between Arvanites and Greeks today, deal with it and go on with your life. If you continue pushing Albanian POV in Greek articles, I'll ask for mediation. Miskin 18:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section: it looks like nationalist pseudoscientific drivel. bogdan 23:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Two archaeological discoveries, and in particular a Corinthian chrism from the 7th century BC and a clay wine-pitcher dating back to 725 BC, have been interpreted by the author Nikos Stylos[1] as Arvanitic inscriptions.
This can be easily be proven false, because it is rather easy to find when their language split from Tosk Albanian. Are there any trustworthy sources for this theory ? bogdan 23:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I've already removed this. I don't see why do you keep reverting to the Albanian version, which ignorantly states that Arvanites are an "ethnic Albanian" minority. Before you edit-war with me, be aware that I'm willing to take this debate through all the steps of wiki-justice. Miskin 16:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you revert yourself. talk to +MATIA 02:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The story goes on and on for many months. Enough with the unsourced and unverifiable claims of few Albanian editors, will this article be improved or it will continue to be vandalised? Is this the wikipedia we want? talk to +MATIA 13:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
And now a guy from Romania, User:141.85.37.4 reverts to the same version as User:Pjetër Bogdani... talk to +MATIA 14:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
And User:Bomac too... come on... who else? talk to +MATIA 16:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
and User:Zogu talk to +MATIA 17:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
LOL! I don't think these guys are reverting to my edit because they just like to support me, but because they know what the truth is; thus they have embraced my objective view.--Pjetër Bogdani jr. 04:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I actually do not think that I have vandalized the article. I have just removed some non-sense information and added some neutral one. Even though I supported the theory that the Arvanites are Albanian people (like the Serbs are Slavs) other hypothesis still remain on the page.--Pjetër Bogdani jr. 04:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
See WP:RS. By the way, the next time you edit unlogged with that ip from Romania, you'll be blocked for breaking the WP:3RR. And keep in mind that I'll bring that article again at ArbCom. Have a nice day. talk to +MATIA 12:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I am located somewhere else and not in Romania (do not have to tell you where). Please specify who you are talking to now, because this does not apply to me.--Pjetër Bogdani jr. 00:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This information is getting back on the article whether you like it or not. We're willing to take this dispute at the furthest level, so before you continue adding your unsourced information, make sure you're prepared to cope. Miskin 01:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've protected this article again. Please resolve your disputes on the talk page first, but note that this is not about who's right and who isn't. The article in its current form doesn't cite any sources. If there are multiple viewpoints, find sources for all of them as a first step. Then present each viewpoint along the lines "Group A has said X", backed up with sources. It's not Wikipedia's job to say what "The Truth" is; it's Wikipedia's job to present all relevant viewpoints neutrally and fairly. I've explained this in more detail on this talk page before; check the archives. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 17:51, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee does not rule on content issues in general, and in the case involving REX has not taken any position on what the status of Arvanites or Arvanitic is. All they have done is note that there is a dispute going on, which had turned incivil. Your summary of the arbitration case is confused at best, and dishonest at worst. As I've said many times, the way forward is to cite sources and represent all viewpoints fairly and neutrally. If some people have said that the Arvanites are Albanian, then find a source and cite it; if others have said they are not, find a source, cite it, and note that there is no agreement. It's all very simple once you realize that Wikipedia cannot determine the Absolute Truth, whatever that may be. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 19:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I've read the ArbCom case and nowhere is there any judgement that would resolve the content dispute one way or another. If you claim otherwise, you invite charges of dishonesty. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The viewpoing that Albanian nationalists consider Arvanites to be an Albanian minority is already mentioned. It's even mentioned that the Albanian prime minister once said it in public and enraged the entire greek community (Arvanites included) I don't see what else could be brought up as an alternative viewpoint apart from that. Miskin 22:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Just as predicted, Albanian editors don't cite sources nor instigate a conversation, thinking that the current locked version is actually supported by the admin who protected the page. Once the page is unlocked, it will be justifiably return to its normal version. Miskin 22:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I am afraid there is such a thing as a "wrong version", in cases where one version complies with WP standards and the other doesn't. The only way to settle this is to say there is this dispute and quote both sides. If one side is really accounted for by crackpot Albanian nationalists, I am afraid there will be nothing but to present it this way. dab (ᛏ) 12:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
No dear Dab. I have read some (pro) Albanian authors and I haven't seen such unreliable quotes. talk to +MATIA 12:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
well, it is undisputed that the Arvanitic language is Albanian. There is a difference between linguistic classification and ethnic self-identification, and the Arvanitic language appears to be dying out anyway; it makes still sense to state that speakers of Arvanitic would be classified as Albanians linguistically. dab (ᛏ) 14:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Check the diff my friend. It was stated clearly in the correct version (the one actually based on reliable, verifiable sources). talk to +MATIA 14:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
(moved from User talk:Dbachmann)
There is a problem here. The problem is that Greek nationlists won't allow what can be found in resources to be written on the page. According with UNESCO http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/europe_report.html#Arvanitika Arvanitika is Albanian dialect. Why we not say that on the page? That is not said nowhere. They instead use wealsel word "shares a common origin". That is not found in no source. Show what source says that. They also don't allow the name used by the Arvanites of northwestern Greece, "Shqiptaret". This is found in human rights report http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html. According with that report some arvanites use Arberoret and some shqiptaret. They only write the Arberoret name, they hide the shqiptaret name. Why? That is not npov. Matia also tries to scare people away by thranating that she will say to ArbCom that I am adding unsourced infomation to the page. That is not true. Why will they not write what the resources say. They try to hide the things that they don't like. Zogu
The dispute is that Matia and other Greeks are try to say that their (former) language is not Albanian but an independant language. The Arvanites in north west Greece call themselves Shqiptaret according to the human rights report http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html and are considered part of the modern Albanian nation. Matia and the other Greeks do not allow that on the page. Zogu
Will you login Zogu? talk to +MATIA 14:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
In north Greece that is not true. According to the human rights report http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia, they are considered to be part of the modern Albanian nation (Banfi, 1994:20), something which perhaps explains their self-identification as Shqiptars rather than Arberor.
Why can that not be put in the page. Also, Matias version does not say what the resource says. The resource say it is Albanian dialect, matia uses weasel word "shares common origin". Zogu
I'm getting the picture; well, if you ask me, mention the linguistic classification, mention the "Shqiptaret" designation of the NW people (if substantiated),hell, if necessary disambiguate between northern and southern Arvanites, and mention the southern preference to be classified as ethnic Greeks. I'm sure if you address one point at a time, Matia will be prepared to rephrase the "common origin" wording. dab (ᛏ) 15:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no human rights report that says that the britons are ethnic british. Zogu
It must be pointed out that I've cross-checked the infamous HHRW report with the sources I've found and some parts, like the "fact" about Arvanites of Epirus are "unstable". Dab you could verify via a library visit that Arvanitika is (partly) an ancient form of Albanian (not exactly un-evolved, but evolved seperately, hence the "common origin" wording). Should we go around and write that Albanians are an Arvanitic minority in Albania? (note: ethnic not linguistic) talk to +MATIA 15:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
That is your pov. The resource say that arvanites in north greeks are considered part of the modern albanian nation. Why you don't want to put it in the page? The unesco report say that Arvanitika is albanian dialect. You don't want to use that either. why? Zogu
All dialects have "common origin". dbachmanns example swiss German and standard German have common origin, but are dialects. Zogu
I not say that. I say that Arvanitika is Albanian dialect and that Arvanites in north greece are considered part of the modern albanian nation and call themselves shqiptaret. I not lie. All this is from the nutral resources. Zogu
I wouldn't care to say that Arvanite is a dialect of Albanian, but I know for a fact that does offend an Arvanite. If you insist to claim Arvanite a dialect of Albanian, then I'll make sure Macedonian Slavic will be mentioned as Bulgarian, Croatian as Serbian, etc. If not, we'll be using double-standards. The criteria of classifying a language are socio-linguistic and not strictly linguistic. Miskin 15:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
If a unesco report say that those languages are dialects you can say that on wikipedia. Zogu
Dbachmann you see the problem. Greek users say that I have no resources but so far only I have given resources. Zogu
I don't care about the UNESCO report. Being politically correct in a nearly-extinct linguistic group of Greece is the last thing on their mind. I know what Arvanites and Arvanite scholars have said, and this is what will go in the article. Miskin 15:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
You may copy this section (or move it) there. :) talk to +MATIA 15:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
So dab you help? Because matia and miskin pretend that my resources dont exist and then erase my edits and then say that I have given no resources. Zogu
There are official documents in which Arvanites don't identify themselves as Albanians nor their language as Albanian. As I said before, if Arvanite is forcefully classified as Albanian, then Croatian should be forcefully classified as Serbian. In fact the only difference between the former is that is has a national status. Similarly Macedonian Slavic is Bulgarian. Arvanite is probably a dialect of Albanian, but then again so is Macedonian Slavic to Bulgarian. But that's not what wikipedia says. Miskin 15:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
What official documents? Arvanitika is not forsfully called Albanian. Unesco say that Arvanitika is Albanian dialect. When unesco say that those languages are dialects you too can write that they are. Zogu
What you're suggesting is correct dab. The detail here is that Arvanite-speakers practically do not exist anymore. I don't see why do we have to enrage Greeks (Arvanites included) by classifying Arvanite as Albanian, since it's explicitely mentioned that they're two closely related languages of a common origin. I don't understand why we're discussing the linguistic question anyway, the article is about Arvanites not the Arvanite language. Albanian editors are explicitely claiming that Arvanites are an Albanian ethnic minority in Greece, and the article is locked in that ridiculous version as we speak. This is why I'm here, not because I don't want Arvanite language to be classified under Albanian. Miskin 16:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Since when did UNESCO become the bible of linguistic classification? Enough about linguistics already, do you or do you not agree Zogu to revert Arvanites to its previous version and remove any references of "Albanian ethnic group" etc? Miskin 16:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
That is a resource and if you look, Britannica talks about Albanian dialects in Greece (arvanites) and Italy (arbereshe). I have give an resource that say it it dilect. You have given no resource that say that it is not. Only your pov. Zogu
I'll give you those sources later and in a different discussion page. Now please answer the initial question. Do you accept to stop making ridiculous claims about Arvanites being "ethnic Albanians"? Do you accept to revert the article to its previous version or not? Miskin 16:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I want to write that Arvanitika is albanian dialect and that the arvanites in north Greece name themselves Albanians (Shqiptaret) and are considered part of the modern Albanian nation. Exactly what the resources say. You only have Arberor in the first paragraf, please put Shqiptare there too. It is true, it is in the resource. Zogu
Are the Albanians part of the modern greek nation? Were they part of a greek nation or state in the past? talk to +MATIA 16:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand your question. The resource say http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia, they are considered to be part of the modern Albanian nation (Banfi, 1994:20), something which perhaps explains their self-identification as Shqiptars rather than Arberor.
Why you dont want to write that on the page? I am not writing something wrong. Zogu
The Arvanitic language is an Albanian dialect. Let's state that instead of the ethnic stuff. Linguistic classification does not prejudice ethnic classification, and in the present case, this is of historical interest at most, since the language is apparently dying; the "are considered part of the modern Albanian nation" is dodgy. "Are considered" by whom? If "by themselves", we may have a dispute to document. At least we seem to agree that "Arvanites are ethnic Albanians" is not an acceptable statement and should be changed on unprotection. What percentage of the 1.6 million is made up of Arvanites "of Epirus and Western Macedonia", and why is that distribution not detailed in the article? dab (ᛏ) 16:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with dab. We not obliged to say every thing. We say that Arvanitika is Albanian dialect and that the arvanites in north Greece call themselves shqiptaret and not arberoret (that is what the rest arvanites name themselves). also there is no census on arvanites in greece since 1951. Zogu
Whether Arvanitika is an Albanian dialect belongs to a different article. Honestly that's not what I care about at the moment. I care about Albanians refusing to accept that Arvanites are not ethnic Albanian today by any means. There are no Arvanites in Western Macedonia and Epirus. Those were Chams, meaning proper ethnic Albanians, it's wrong to refer to them as Arvanites. In any case, those were deported during and after WW2 so there's no point discussing it. Please try to keep the linguistic and ethnic matter separate. Miskin 17:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned in this page as well, there where it says that Arvanitika is a language with a "common origin". It should also be mentioned on the Arvanitic language page. According with the source, there are arvanites in north Greece. You have givven no resources, only your pov. What is wrong with my edits - we can remove that where it says "ethnic Albanians" and replase it with "people". Why are you not cooperate? The facts are that Arvanitika is albanian dialect and the arvanites in north Greece name themselves as shqiptaret and not arberoret. It is from resources. Why you not like these edits? Zogu
Where's the source that claims the existence of Arvanites with Albanian ethnic feelings in Northern Greece? Please quote the exact reference along with its sources. Secondly the Albanian/Arvanite debate has already been through mediation, and it was decided to leave it as is is at the moment. This is WP:POLICY, take it or leave it. Miskin 17:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Don't quote from the Helsinki report just quote its sources. The Albanians of Northern Greece were not Arvanites. The report doesn't really differentiate betweeen "Arvanitic" and "Albanian", this is why it abstractly refers to all Albanian-speaking peoples of Greece as "Arvanite", which is wrong. Please provide me with a source that verifies the present existence of an Arvanitic-speaking community in Northern Greece that identifies itself as ethnic Albanian. Miskin 17:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Check your own sources: Geographical location: Greece: in rural areas mainly in Attica -> proof that Arvanitic populations DO NOT exist in Northern Greece. As it's impossible to assume anything about a non-existant population, this matter is closed. Miskin 17:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I not say "Albanian ethnic feelings". I say that they call themselves shqiptaret and not arberoret. Point me to where I say "Albanian ethnic feelings". I never say that. The source is the report http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html:
As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia, they are considered to be part of the modern Albanian nation (Banfi, 1994:20), something which perhaps explains their self-identification as Shqiptars rather than Arberor.
You see, the arvanites in epirus and Western Macedonia self identify as Shqiptar not Arberor. Zogu
That your pov. The resource say the Arvanites of Epirus... So they belong here. This is the article on the Arvanites. Zogu
That also your pov. Arberor and Shqiptar both mean Albanian. Arberor is only a more old fashioned way. This is because epirus and western Macedonia were part of the Otoman empire for longer and were in the same country as the rest of Albanians for longer too. The obdjective here is what the resource say. The resource name them Arvanites of Epirus and western Macedonia who self identify as Shqiptar. So they should be in this article untill you can give a resource that say they are not arvanites. Dab agree too. Read above. If you want to say that they are not arvanites you have to give a resource like I did. If matia does ask the arbcom they sould also ceck the fact that you are not respect the resources and give none of yours. The fact that Miskin is rude and the fact that matia is try to intmidate me and other users like Pjeter Bogdani with thrats. Zogu
The upholding of the policies (WP:RS, WP:V, WP:CITE etc) is part of ArbCom's job. You are writing long paragraphs here that have little (if anything) to do with the recent ( see the diff) reverts in that article. I can only assume that they were blind reverts. talk to +MATIA 18:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
No matia, they are not blind reverts. I know I removed greek propaganda that all arvanites name themselves as arberor and that arvanitika is not albanian dialect. You accuse me of not have resources. I do have resources as you can see above. So far I have not seen resource from you. Even Dab agree with what resources say. Do you agree? Zogu
After many library visits, I have written the bigger part of this article (especially since September) and I've listed my sources at the buttom (Biris, Moraitis, Kollias etc). You (and the rest editors who reverted to your version) removed the phrase "linguistic minority" and wrote instead "Albanian ethnic minority", changed the greek names of the Arvanites authors, "their Albanian language" instead of Arvanitic language, etc (see the red parts at the diff). Who are you trying to fool? talk to +MATIA 18:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
You want to talk about reverts without resources. Look at this one http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arvanites&diff=38090883&oldid=38089532, you are reomving the christusrex source, removing the sourced fact that some arvanites call themselves shqiptare, removing the sourced fact that arvanitika is an albanian dialect (part of the albanian language), adding unsourced information that the arvanites do not want to be recognissed as an etnik minority (how do you know - resource? If there is no resource, you don't write nothing). As you can see, you are not perfect and are making unsourced revert. Who are you to tell me not to do something you do? You also did not tell me if you agree with dab and me. Zogu
Guys, could you all please use section headings, indents, and proper signatures to make this talk page more readable? Lukas (T.|@) 12:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I make proposal version at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites/test can you check? Zogu
Matia, why you not cite resource? That is just your pov. Did you not say above "enough with the unsourced and unverifiable claims"? You are trying to add an unsourced and unverifiable claim. Give resource, please. Zogu
Matia, why you not comment on the proposals. I and Lukas try to find nutral compromise. Why you not comment on proposals or give your proposal? Dont you want to finish this dispute? Why can we not agree on something? Zogu
What wrong with my and Lukas proposal? You are talking very abstraktly. What specificaly do you not agree with? Tell me and it can be fixed as long as there are resources. Zogu
Judging from the cautiously positive responses I see from both Zogu and Matia above, may I quite immodestly suggest that we take my version as a provisional basis for further negotiations? We could move it to a subpage here in article namespace, Arvanites/test2, and then let everybody start editing on it to see if we can stabilize it. Lukas (T.|@) 19:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
No Matia, you version is too pov. There is too much anti Albanian propaganda (also offensing), where it speaks of Albanian nationalists who try to "invant" Albanian minority in Greece and so on (where are the resources? You say my version is pov. Ha!). Your version is too anti albanian and is very offensive. Please cooperate so that we make compromise version as fast as possible. Zogu
There is a lot of infomation that can be added like the fact that Arvanited harased in Greek Army and the Metaxa helenizations and discriminations (all in helsinki report) and how the all the arvanites were called Albanians before the greek revolution. Matias version is Greek (not Arvanitic) pov. The present version is I admit Albanian pov, but Wikipedia is suposed to be npov: all povs. I know that when article is unlocked, matia and miskin and theathenae will make edit war. theathenae make a lot of edit wars http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ATheathenae he will certainly make one here. Compromise must be made before unlocking. I not want to call Arvanites Albanian minority in final version. Only the fact that the resources say that Arvnitika is albanian dialect and to admit that the arvanites in north greece call themselves shqiptaret. Also to remuve unsourced information that all arvanites dismiss being called albanians. The human right report http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html say
As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia, they are considered to be part of the modern Albanian nation (Banfi, 1994:20), something which perhaps explains their self-identification as Shqiptars rather than Arberor.
Moreover, and more important for the survival of their language, they have distanced themselves from the Albanians to the extent that most consider today offending to be called Albanians: they have preferred the term Arvanite (Arberor in their own language) for the people and Arvanitika (Arberichte) for the language, as opposed to Albanian (Shqiptar for the people and Shqip for the language) that Albanians use for themselves and their language - with the exception of the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece, as mentioned above.
I want to write npov version but matia dismiss my edits. Zogu
Also matia UCK and UCC (new name) have nothing to do with arvanites. If you want to say they do they to "make Arvanites albanian minority" you have to give resource. Zogu
Please, both of you, don't return to polemics, and keep it short. Matia, if you read the two proposal versions carefully, you will notice they both refrain from calling Arvanites an "Albanian minority". We have a consensus on that. The new version is going to say "linguistic minority". As for the sentence about Albanian nationalists, the crux is the phrase "are trying to", in my view. - Zogu, may I point out that the Banfi quote says, somewhat ambiguously, that the northern Arvanites "are considered" part of the Albanian nation - he doesn't say who considers them as such. They themselves? So, that source doesn't actually help us much. (But of course we can mention it as one opinion among others.) Lukas (T.|@) 20:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I dont know. The report not give exact referense for any of its blibliografy, only a name and date. Zogu
To clear my position, regardles of my revert, what I want in the compromise version is:
1) Arvanitika is albanian dialect (from unesco resource. Even dab agree) (matia can say that this is disputed though) 2) Arvanites in north Greece call themselves Shqiptaret (this name to be in first paragraf next to Arbeoret) (this from helsinki resource) 3) Remove unsourced calumnis against Albanians and albanian nationalism 4) Remove unsourced information that "all" Arvanites are offended when called albanians (helsinki report say only most) and remove unsourced information that arvanites do not want to be given ethnic minority status
All that is sourced (or is supported by absence of resource) so it is allowed according with policy. If matia can make compromise version that includes all that I probably agree. Zogu
Okay. Let me take up Zogu's and Matia's main desiderata, with a few comments of my own:
Matia, would you like to add some more points here that would be a "red line" for you?
3) Very hard but there was a compromise in the past about it (Kollias or Moraitis mentions something relevant).
The rest seem more or less ok (and were "used" in those articles in previous versions). talk to +MATIA 21:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I not say that we cannot say that Arvanites not want to be given ethnic minority status. I say not to say that if there is no resource that say that they do. And what you mean helsinki report is poorly sourced? That is the resource and it does mention an author and it would be critisised. Banfi source is Banfi, Emanuele (1994). Minorités Linguistiques en Grèce: Langues Cachées, Idéologie Nationale, Religion. Paper presented at the Mercator Program Seminar at the Maison des Sciences de l’ Homme, on 6 June 1994, in Paris. according to search of helsinki wesite [2]. Zogu
Mention self-designation of northern Arvanites as "Shqiptar" (Seems okay, with the proviso that we should clearly mark it as a minority usage, and provided we get a reliable source for it. Unfortunately the Helsinki report is poorly sourced.)
No that's not okay. The Helsinki paper erroneously categorises the Albanian Chams under Arvanites, which is what has confused some Albanian editors. Chams were in fact ethnic Albanian, but they were not Arvanites. Chams never identify themselves as Arvanites [3] [4]. Hence they belong to a separate article, and any references of Arvanites being ethnic Albanian should be removed. Miskin 06:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I've written before (Archive 1 and the first ArbCom case) that in some places the infamous Helsinki report, misquotes the authors. I have noted some differences somewhere (don't remember where, but I could find them I guess) and some pieces of the report are against WP:NOT a propaganda machine. As for the Chams, Pangalos "saved" them during 1922 but their collaboration with Nazis resulted in their departure (keep in mind that in all European countries, people who worked with Nazis either fled or were prosecuted). talk to +MATIA 09:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Good sources from the Arvanitic language page:
Hey zogu and the rest, what will happen if I present you with Arvanite sources that declare themselves part of the Greek nation, unrelated to Albanians whatsoever? Will you quit editing this article once and for all, or will you keep regarding your Albanian scholars to be more reliable? And now answer me this. If the Albanians of Epirus (who were expelled by WW2 as collaborators - but anyway) were Arvanites, then who on earth are the Chams? If I prove to you that the Albanians of Epirus (who recognised themselves as Albanians) were not Arvanites but Chams, who don't exist in Greece anymore, you will have no valid reason to revert our edits. You'll have to tranfer your arguments in 'Arvanitic language'. Do we have a deal or not? Miskin 05:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some serious factual confusion here, regarding those elusive northwestern "Arvanites"/"Chams". Suggestion: For the moment, let's just call them neutrally "Northwestern Albanophones" (NWA's). Questions:
Please let's all be aware that questions (2)-(7) are mutually independent. Conceivably, the answer could be any of the 64 logically possible combinations, paradoxical as some combinations might sound to the outsider. Helsinki Report says "yes" to (1), (6), (7), which seems fairly well sourced. It also seems to imply (2), although that's far vaguer. Does anybody have access to the sources by Ciampi and Banfi? Lukas (T.|@) 09:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
We are complicating the things too much with the unrelated Chams. Are the Albanians of Kossovo Arvanites? There's a traditional Arvanitic song about a muslim Albanian or a Cham (not sure if it's the one or the other) who betrayed the Arvanites of a village to the Ottomans. I have avoided bringing up such stuff in the past, but if the thing continues I will (at least this song is related directly to the Arvanites). talk to +MATIA 09:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The Arvanites of Epirus, the Chams, the Albanians, the Greek-Albanians and the (non Arvanites) Greeks of the wider Epirus region are 5 (five) different groups of people. They share similarities and differences. Don't mix them up. The Chams aren't the Arvanites of Epirus and the mistakes (deliberate or not) of the Helsinki report aren't my problem. And the propaganda is neither mine nor WP's problem (at least according to WP:NOT). talk to +MATIA 09:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I (and another one editor at the archive 1) have pointed out that the Arvanites of Epirus call traditionaly their language Shqip (see Moraitis). talk to +MATIA 10:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The first sentence should read Arvanites (Αρβανίτες). Not Arber*, Shqip*, or whatever else. And I'm really considered about the "is a language minority". The language is practicaly dead, and the few speakers are bilingual. There are also historical records that the majority of Arvanites were always bilingual (Biris, Kollias etc cites them) and most of the time they used Greek in written and Arvanitika in oral. talk to +MATIA 11:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Are we agree on something? I think my proposal version above is ok as it is same with matias version except it has chenges mentioned by Lukas. Matia, if you not like it, can you make proposal version with the changes? Zogu 23:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Based on the previous discussion, I've drafted the following to document what I think might become a consensus, with a few open questions at the end:
If we can agree on something along these lines, I suggest we archive this talk page, put a version of these guidelines (updated where necessary) in a prominent, permanent place on the new talk page as a document for later editors, and request unprotecting. We should also put a Template:Controversial sign up in the article to point to this discussion. Lukas (T.|@) 10:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why is the Helsinki report trusted over other sources such as the CIA factbook for instance (which doesn't list Arvanites as an ethnic minority). It's fairly blatant that the Arvanites of the North who recognized themselves as Albanian were the Chams. I hope REX could translate this [5] to his Albanian compatriots. Miskin 05:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)