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The life of Basil Sakelaris, the Troesenian priest.
(Freely adapted from the arvanitic.)
I was born in nineteen ninety-seven, 1797, after the birth of Christ. And when I reached the age of seven, I learned to write in modern? Greek in Piyada (Nea Epidaurus?). Then I returned in my native country, and in 1808 I went to Poros, to study Greek under N. Bambakis.
Then, after one year I got on a ship and we set sail to Constantinople, and then came we to Smyrna and we loaded raisins destined for Amsterdam. We set sail for Malta, from there we went to Mahon, and then to Mallorca, and we anchored in Argazilia (?). The sailors warned us not to go on sea, because the Algerians were offshore, and they would kidnap us. We went to sea anyway, they caught us and put our whole crew in their ship. In our ship the Algerians put some of their men and took us to Algiers. We remained there for four days, and then they released us, together with some other slaves. After being released we arrived in Calais, but we were sent off. Then we went to Lisbon, from there we went to London. We went to Helder by ferryboat (?) and unloaded. We entered Amsterdam six months after we set sail for the first time. Then we came back to Poros. Then I got married there, in 1818, and in 1820 I became a priest.
In 1821 the war with Turkey broke out. In 1828 I learned the allilodidaktike method? and became a teacher in Poros, remaining there until 1842. Then I left the island and in 1852 I was anointed priest for the king Ludwig. We went also in Toulon, France. In 1855 Ludwig released me from my duties and since then I have been employed in my church, with no other occupation.
Jeta e Vasil Sakelarit, priftit, Triziniotit. U u leshë ndë ñië mil’lë e shtatë qint e nöntë dhietë shtatë, 1797, gka të lerrëtë e Krishtit. E, kur u shkitshë e u böshë shtatë viet, d’zura grammëtë êïéíÜtë ndë Pijadhë (ÍÝá ’Eðßäáõñïò). - Pra u pruarshë ndë katunt t’im, e ndë 1808 vaita ndë Porje, çë gje’shë grammë hel’linikí gka N. Bambaki. E pastai gka viti hira me ñië karav : e vammë ndë Pol, pra erdhm ndë Smyrn e ngarkuam staphydhe prë* [prë Zotin?] Amsterdham. - E lashuam e vammë ndë Maltë e gkah’ atje ndë Mahon, pra ndë Mayorkë, e zumm ndë Argazilie. - Atje na thoinë varkatë : “mos dilni jashtë, se janë Alindzerintë e do u grapñiënë.” Nevet duallm e na grapnë e na vunnë nevet ndë karav të tire e nde i ini karav vunnë Alindzeriñ, e na muarë pasoiet* [pasjet?], e na qellë nd’ Alindzer. E mbemmë atje katrë dit, pra na lashuan : pse ish qæroi çë lashuanë edhe të tierëtë shklev. - E, si na lashuanë i a thurm [thuam] e vamm nish-nish ndë Kalès, e nögkë na lanë, po na gjuaitin. E vamm ndë Lisbonë e gkah’ atje ndë Londrë ; e gka Londra muarm ñië matës detit e vamm ndë Hèldèr e shkarkuam ; pra himm mbörda nd’ Amsterdham, çë bömm gjashtë muai. - Pra u pruarm e erdhm ndë Porje. - Atje edhe u martuashë ndë 1818, e ndë 1820 u böshë prift. - - Edhe ndë ñië mil’lë e tetë qint e ñiëzet e ñië, 1821, gritim luftë me Turki. - E ndë 1828 d’zura al’lilodhidhaktikinë methodo e u dhiorishë dhaskal ndë Porje e mbeta ñierë ndë 1842. - Pasandai dolla e ndë 1852 u dhiorishë prift i Ludovikosë. - E vamm edhe ndë Toulo’ të Gal’lisë. - E ndë 1855 më lashuanë gka Ludovikua, e jam ñierë ndë sot ndë klishë t’ime pa doñië iatrë shërbes.
Theathenae are you -- > swedish wiki user Arvanítis? Albanau 16:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What exactly are you disputing about the article, other than the fact that TheAthenae has edited it? --Jpbrenna 03:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Theathenae simply said Arvanites are 'a people' originating in central Albania rather than specifying 'a people of Albanian origin', look. Take a good look on the article Arvanitic as well, he begines with 'Arvanitic is an Indo-European language originating in the Balkan peninsula', he does not either specify here that 'Arvanítika is a variety of Tosk Albanian originating in the central Albania', and he continues 'spoken by about 150,000 Arvanites, a people of south-central Greece', also here he mention 'a people' which for me is very confusing. But he does not stop here, he says ' genetically related to Tosk , the language has been heavily influenced by Greek over the centuries', can't he say insteed genetically related to Tosk Albanian, look at this edit. It's obviously that this two articles are written from Theathenae point of view, he want to claim that the Arvanites are albanophone hellenes and not hellenphone Albanians. Please go and look what I wrote on the talkpage Fustanella.--Albanau 04:46, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Theathenae obviously has a concerted agenda here to deempasize the historical/linguistic links that the minorities of Greece (such as Arvanites & Aromanians) have with groups outside of Greece---the problem is, 'athenae takes it to the brink of pseudo-science, because the fact is the groups in question have very much the same origin, despite the gulf that has developed in the ensuing centuries. While one should not necessarily project the close historic link onto the modern scene, one should also not attempt to blot out the common link from the past in a Wikipedia article. Decius 11:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's the way I approach this topic: my edits to the articles in question will show that my concern in these situations is to make sure the close historical/linguistic links are made clear; in the articles, I do not get involved with the modern scene or how the people identify themselves (how people identify themselves is extremely subjective and arbitrary and does not necessarily reflect the historical realities of a situation) . And I note that 'athenae gives a selective impression of how these groups identify, and repeatedly attempts to speak for an entire people---which is ridiculous, point blank. His own position is extremely pro-Greek. Decius 11:08, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Keep your views from distorting historical and linguistic links---which are factual, not subjective. Your views are by defintion subjective, and they must be kept in check within a Wikipedia article. Decius 11:53, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, that's wrong. The Arvanites are a hellenized ethnicity who have a common origin with Albanians, but you can no longer call them Albanians in the same sense as an Albanian is an Albanian. Decius 12:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I didn't seriously claim that the fustanella is of Greek origin. I would assume that it was imported along with the word itself, but I don't know. Decius 14:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is usually elements which contribute to confusion about identity. The Arvanites living in southern Greece are originally a Albanian folkgrupp who have absorbed a lot of Greek element through intermarriage and interaction with Greeks through the centuries. They have lived in Greece for centuries, they identified themself today with Greece, they have become associated with the new land.
Part of the article confused me, it stated: 'a people' originating in central Albania, I changed it to: 'originally a Albanian ethnic group' originating in central Albania. I think it's necessary to confirm this and not try to dislink the affinity of Arvanites people with the southern Albanians.
On the article Arvanitic language it is stated: 'an Indo-European language related to and somewhat mutually intelligible with Tosk' which should have sounded an alarm bell in you mind Decius. The line should be replaced with the following; 'a variety of Tosk Albanian spoken by the Arvanites'. Theathenae must recognize this fact that the Arvanítika language is a a variety of Tosk Albanian and not attempt to dislink the dialect of Arvanítika with the Tosk Albanian. --Albanau 20:29, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What you said, now, and what you wrote on the article: Arvanitic language it's misleading. Oxford University Press: "Arvanítika, a variety of Tosk Albanian spoken in Greece".
Then of course the Arvanítika dialects have been influenced by other Greek dialects and vise versa. --Albanau 20:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Comment: Ethnologue calls Arvanitic a language and classifies it as Indo-European, Albanian, Tosk. Decius 21:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree Arvanitic should be referred to as a Tosk (Albanian) language, not a dialect. Ethnologue also indicates that Arvanitic has dialects within it. Decius 21:51, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Almost all speakers of Arvanitika are today bilingual, i.e. they also speak Greek, usually fluently for the younger generations (Trudgill, 1975:53). It is widely agreed that Arvanitika today have been influenced significantly by the linguistic environment in which they have evolved, sometimes for centuries, without any contact with the Albanian communities of modern day Albania. So, it has acquired a separate (Ausbau) status from Albanian, in fact with dialectical richness; nevertheless, at least partial mutual intelligibility between Arvanite and Albanian exists (Trudgill, 1994:14). Indeed, the recent (in the early 1990’s) arrival of hundreds of thousands, mainly illegal, Albanian immigrants in Greece has led to a successful test of that mutual intelligibility, when many settled in Arvanitika villages (it is also noteworthy that in these villages we have seen the two most serious incidents of beatings of Albanian immigrants)." http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
I would add that the recent Albanian immigrants themselves have acquired Greek so rapidly and speak the language so fluently that one can hardly question the Arvanites, who have after all lived in Greece for five centuries. The real question is whether or not the children of the recent immigrants will be speaking any Albanian at all in the years to come.--Theathenae 22:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Albanau if you go up to an Arvanite and call him an Albanian-Greek you'll experience the greatest mockery of your life. Miskin 4 July 2005 06:10 (UTC)
[[User:Miskin|Miskin] the Arvanitic word for the Arvanit people is Arbëror and the Arvanitic language Arbëríshte wich is the old Albanian word for Albanian. Arbëreshë are Albanian people living in southern Italy. / Read Albanian identities, Myth and History, page 179, the term 'Alvanoi' was also used to describe the Arvanites. --Albanau 21:41, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Albanau|Albanau There is a big Albanian minority in every part of the Balkans, and they all happen to have their own special name according to you. So maybe you are going to declare those parts of the Balkans they now make home a part of the new Albania. The great Albania that some nationalists like you have in mind. Wake up!!! There is no Kosovo here. You are not qualified to debate and solve these issues, and the debate should definetely not take place here in Wikipedia.
The dispute is not over Arvanites present day ethnicity, they have intermarried with greeks and define themselves as Greeks, however there is little dispute as to their origins and that of their language. It is a language that came from Tosk Albanian, nearly all studies on the language state that they are of Albanian origins. Nobody in Albania denies their hellenicness of today. They call themselves Greek, they have been Greeks for over 2 centuries. However this does not change the fact of where they originated from, evidenced even in Byzantine records. Byzantines, who were in fact the people were invited the present day Arvanites(then Arberor) into the Pelopenesus, due to the depopulation of the area thanks to the lands decline.
Arvanitic itself is barely 50% intelligible with Tosk,
I myself speak spanish. However when I hear someone speak latin, I can understand about 1/2 the stuff said. Does that mean that Spanish is not a Romance language, deriving from latin? No, it just means that centuries of foreign influence, and independant growth and slang have changed the language to it's own course. This has been through 2000 years time. Arvanitika has had 500 years of influence, purely from Greek. I however, can still understand it. I speak a Tosk dialect, and while it may be difficult due to the large amount of recent Greek loanwords and prnounciation differences. I need people to repeat something over again. However, when it comes literature. I can understand it almost perfectly. Many of the differences between todays shqip and Arvanitika are mentioned in one of the articles I provided.
The following were taken from this book (Note the Book is only in Italian, French and Arberesh or Arvanitika)
From Almiropotamos dialect;
"Moj Marie Marigo, tregoi zoti se te do"
translation;
" My Maria Marigo, tell god because he loves you" (I dont know who Maria is, never mentioned)
do = want, for those who understand a bit of albanian you will notice I put "love you", this is my interpretation because in Albanian "dua" and "do" are also used to express effection to someone close to you.
Kemi dhene edhe gjake / per te bahemi kuvende arberore kutu
rough translation;
We gave blood, so we can become united Arberor(Arvanite) here.
Ill place some more later if you want...Tpilkati 04:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
I delated this some have argued that they are descended from early inhabitants of Greece..... Clearly Greek propaganda! And also replace this the descendants of settlers sharing a common origin with the Tosks with this the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry because the immigrants or the descendants of Arvanites that settled in Greece during Middle Ages were not a mishmash of people sharing common origin with Tosk. They were Albanian immigrants thus make Arvanites descendants of the Albanian immigrants.
The Encyclopædia Britannica Article mention a mass Albanian immigration to Thessaly, Boeotia, Attica, and the Peloponnese where most of the Arvanites are residing today.
The origins of the Albanians (Albanoi/Arvanitai in Greek) remain uncertain. They appear to be the descendants of the Illyrian populations who withdrew into the highlands of the central Dinaric chain. Their name may originate from the valley of the Arbanon (along the Shkumbi River) in the theme of Dyrrachion (Durrës/Durazzo), in which they were first noted by outside commentators. Their language probably evolved from ancient Illyrian (formerly classed with the Hellenic group of Indo-European languages but now generally recognized as an independent member of the latter family), but it is heavily influenced by Greek, Slavic, and Turkish, as well as medieval Italian. For reasons not yet fully understood, the Albanians began in the 14th century to advance into the western coastal plain, where they served both Byzantine and Serbian overlords as well as ruling independently under various warlords and chiefly families; they were also present in considerable numbers in Thessaly, Boeotia, Attica, and the Peloponnese, serving as soldiers and as farmers, colonizing deserted lands. Albanians arrived in large numbers in the Peloponnese during the reign of the despotes Manuel Kantakouzenos, who brought them there to serve as soldiers and to resettle depopulated regions. The impact of their presence on the region's existing ethnic and linguistic structure remains debated.
Here also,
Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity Cambridge University Press by Jonathan M Hall
These Arvanites are descended from Albanians who first entered Greece between the eleventh and fifteenth centuries (though there was a subsequent wave of immigration in the second half of the eighteenth century.)
Albanau 23:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Albanau please try to understand that as you want to be called (self-identified) as Albanau, Arvanites feel they are Greeks. Let me clarify something I've already mentioned on Arvanitic language: if you go to an Arvanitis and call him Albanian he will react like you have offended his mother.MATIA 07:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Some of you are not getting the point here and the point is that it doesn't matter how Arvanites act today and what their feelings are. This shouldn't have to do anything with who their ancestors were. Arvanites are Albanian immigrants, accepting it or not, it wont ever change anything. Regards -User
As you see above the Arvanitc language is a variety of Tosk Albanian. It isin't as Theathenae made it up sharing common origin with Tosk Albanian and niether isin't Arvanites descendants to a mishmash of people sharing common origin with Tosk. They are descendants to the Albanian immigrants. I'm against Theathenae description, "sharing common origin with tosk", this is his invention. Every neutral sources is against his claim. Enough said!
Albanau 13:58, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
This phrase "The native disposition of the Tosks has been modified by intercourse with the Greeks and Vlachs." is from 1911 encyclopedia article for Albania. MATIA 16:27, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I erased this, The native disposition of the Tosks has been modified by intercourse with the Greeks and Vlachs., cause Tosk are as Geg Albanians and not a mishmash of people. Tosk are not Greek/Vlach/Albanian people. Tosks are southern Albanians and Gegs are northern Albanians. Albanau 17:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I 've already told where this phrase came from. I believe you can use that source and make two articles, one for Gegs and one for Tosks, explaining the similarities and differences (language, way of dressing etc). This was old britanica "propaganda", take the source, modify it properly (I don't like some characterizations on that encyclopedia about Albania people) and make something useful out of it.
Please change the phrase Greek propaganda and try to accept the history of Arvanites.
MATIA 17:53, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Ok what they are talking about had nothing to do with Arvanites, are you sure you're taking your pills? - User :)
So any fact you don't like is propaganda now? What reason did the old Britannica have to use propaganda against Albania? What characterizations don't you like from that encyclopaedia? You need to get some help. Or maybe you need to have some intercourse yourself because it seems like you haven't gotten any in a long time.
""""This phrase "The native disposition of the Tosks has been modified by intercourse with the Greeks and Vlachs." is from 1911 encyclopedia article for Albania. MATIA 16:27, 21 July 2005 (UTC)""""
Paraphrasing: The native characteristics of the Tosks have been modified by communication/dealings with the Greeks and Vlachs. In light of this simple truth, why are we talkin about Tosks being a mishmash?
The 1911 encyclopedia article on Greece[1] highlights:
""The Christian Albanians have long lived on good terms with the Greeks while retaining their own customs and language and rarely intermarrying with their neighbors. They played a brilliant part during the War of Independence, and furnished the Greekswith many of their most distinguished leaders.""
""Like the Albanians, the pastoral Vlachs seldom intermarry with the Greeks; they occasionally take Greek wives, but never give their daughters to Greeks""
The ancestors of arvanites and vlachs were ridiculed for their origins, and that is one reason they are the most hardcore "greeks".
Vlachs:
""Owing to their deficient intellectual culture they are regarded with disdain by the Greeks, who employ the term j3M~os to denote not only a shepherd but an ignorant rustic.""
Albanians:
""The process of their Hellenization... has been somewhat slow; most of the men can now speak Greek, but Albanian is still the language of the household. The Albanians, who are mainly occupied with agriculture, are less quick-witted, less versatile, and less addicted to politics than the Greeks, who regard them as intellectually their inferiors. A vigorous and manly race, they furnish the best soldiers in the Greek army, and also make excellent sailors.""
Typical albo occupation historically has been soldier.
Can I please ask you all a question? How does the status of the Arvanites differ from the status of the Arbëreshë of Italy? Also, if we can say Tosk Albanian, Gheg Albanian and Arvanitic Albanian, while referring to the particular dialect; can we say Arvanitic Albanians as we say Tosk Albanians or Gheg Albanians? REX 14:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I never said that, I was comparing the Arbëreshë to the Arvanites and I was asking if we can say Tosk Albanian or Arbëreshë Albanian, why can't we say Arvanitic Albanian? Also, could you tell me if the Arvanite fulfil the criteria here. REX 15:05, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
That may be, but this is an encyclopaedia, not a forum for you to express your personal opinion. REX 15:56, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Of course not. All right, assuming you are right. Arvanites are nothing but Greeks on Prozac, why doesn't the page Arvanites be made blank and make it redirect to Greeks? REX 16:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Exactly, why don't you make the following changes:
just to be sure that nobody dares assume that there is a minority nationalist movement in Greece, to give the Greek Police something to do, storm a festival perhaps (snort). REX 16:35, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
""""So, the Arvanites are Albanians because their ancestors originally came from a place that is now called Albania 700 years ago?""""
No, they were albanians because historical sources say so.
""""Should this line of thinking apply to all 800 million inhabitants of the Americas except for what has remained of the native tribes?""""
When have lets say, white north american citizens, disputed that they have european origins? Stop false analogies. Here some want to put in dispute the albanian origins of arvanites even though there are sources that say they were albanians. Nobody puts in dispute the origins of the americans.
""""I know that the Arvanites are Greek citizens and they have been unfailingly and uniformly pledging their allegiance to Greece, not Albania""""
This is not the focus of the dispute.
All right! Shut up with the straws. To quit beating around the bush, I invite you to prepare a proposal on how YOU believe this article should be and we'll go over it point by point! REX 16:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I like it too, I suppose the Arvanites' place of origin could be clarified, but I wouldn't remove the Shqiptar, that would be supressing the truth, even the Official Helsinki Report mentions that name is used by some Arvanites, mainly in Τσ̈αμε̰ρία.
In Epirus, that's the Arvanitic name for Epirus.REX 17:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
What is that supposed to mean? What difference does that make to the issues? REX 17:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Good! At least now we 've established that you are talking to an Arvanite/Albanian (But also Greek). REX 17:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Nobody 's a fool. But I can't understand where you got that from. REX 17:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You can what? The question is why are you now saying that Arvanites are not Greeks? REX 17:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Can you please explain your reasons for doing this: this? REX 13:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I disagree, not all Arvanites view themselves as distinct from mainstream Albanians. I am of Arvanitic descent and I know many other people who are also. They do not regard mainstream Albanians as foreigners but also regard themselves as Greeks, they (and I) just prefer to not be called Albanian for the purely social reason that a few immigrants from Albania have given all Albanians a stereotypical bad name. That does not mean that they are. Also, if Arvanitic were genealogically related to Tosk, Gheg and Arbëreshë (which it is, it belongs to the Albanian branch of the Indo-European family of languages), the link being on the page would be helpful if one would like to compare them. I think that you are mixing (Greek imperialistic) politics with science, and you shouldn’t. REX 14:54, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Are you saying, do you truly believe, that Arvanites differ in no respect from the mainstream Greek population? Our very name 'Arvanites' means Albanians, some Arvanites today may want to have nothing to do with the modern Albanian state, but that does not change anything. What kind of minority are we then if indeed, we are not Greek (you can tell from the classification of our language) and not Tosks (the population of Albania)? REX 16:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Ασφαλώς. REX 16:14, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Έλληνα και Αρβανίτη. REX 16:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)]
Arvanites are Greeks in that sense. Therefore the term Arvanite Greeks in pointless. Just say Arvanites. Like in Greek: Λέμε Αρβανίτες, όχι Αρβανιτοέλληνες. REX 16:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Arvanites are Greeks, but they also have a unique heratige, which contains many elements that the Arbëreshë and the people of Albania share. To deem Arvanites just Greek would be the biggest arrogance, because they are being denied that heratige. REX 16:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, I believe that you insist on overly emphasising the Arvanites' Greek element. Why? REX 16:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think that you must realise that the point of this discussion (as far a I am concerned) is to come up with a compromise on how the articles Arvanites and Arvanitic language should be. I believe that it is important that this compromise must be totally impartial, because, to use a correct analogy for a change, it would be like an article on the status of Taiwan being written from a Chinese or a Taiwanese perspective. I must be written so that nothing which is said can be reasonably challenged. I am willing to co-operate, if you are not, but are willing to continue talking about straws and scarecrows, I cannot help you and the above articles will remain erroneous. REX 17:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Δεν μπορώ να μιλήσω εκ μέρους όλων των Αρβανιτών. Εγώ όμως τους θεωρώ μη αναγνωρισμένη εθνική μειονότητα. REX 17:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why mainstream Albanians or Greeks should be mentioned, it could be glossed over to avoid confusion. Can't we just accept that Arvanites are an unique combination of Greeks and Abbanians (that could stand even literally, because of all the intermarriages). REX 17:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Δηλαδή; Σκέφτωμαι τώρα, να σε καταγγείλω ή όχι; REX 17:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, perhaps just to be on the safe side, it may even keep Albanau quiet, we should just mention that Arvanites live in Greece and that they are almost totally assimilated. REX 17:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Δεν καταλαβαίνω;
Because, as far as I can tell, he shares my views that certain individuals (that incluses you) are trying to make out that Arvanites are totally Greeks. REX 17:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm an Arvanite/Albanian (but also Greek). REX 17:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Well your Holiness, do tell me, you are not Greek, are you German? REX 17:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Α μούνd τε̰ μα πε̰ρκθένι κε̰τέ̰; REX 18:42, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I personally don't understand the concept of "just Greek" or "totally Greek". You're either Greek or you're not. You can also be Arvanite, but that doesn't detract from your Greekness. I don't discriminate or divide my compatriots into "pure" and "impure" Greeks, nor do I believe in ethnic purity, as the likes of User:Albanau do. I see no contradiction in being both a proud Arvanite and a proud Greek.--Theathenae 18:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you? REX 18:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, maybe we could get to the point (the articles), what do we do about them? REX 18:41, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Let me just explain my position here. Arvanites (Αρbε̰ρόρ, Arbërór or Σ̈κ̇ιπτάρ, Shqiptár) are neither ethnic Greeks nor ethnic Albanians although they possess characteristics of one or both nations. However most hold Greek citizenship. They are a Greek ethnic minority. What makes them an ethnic minority is their history, their language, and some other cultural characteristics (ie traditional dress). If you have a Greek encyclopaedia with you, look up Αρβανίτες or Αρβανιτόβλαχοι, where you will see it refer to them as a λαός. What I propose is avoiding mentioning both Greeks and other Albanians as much as possible. We could say that Arvanites are a people (=λαός) originating in Central Albania who immigrated to Western Greece during the Middle Ages, that their language Arbëríshte is a form of Tosk Albanian and that they have almost totally assimilated into Greek society. That's it! We haven't said anything to politically sensitive, nor have we said anything untrue. And Please… Please don't speak for all Arvanites, you don't know what percentage resent being identified with the immigrant Tosk and Gheg Albanian community. I see the term Albanian an equilavent term to Scaninavian. Just as there are Tosk, Gheg, Arvanite, and Arbëresh Albanians; there are Norwegians, Swedes, Danes and Icelanders. Similar people, with partial intelligble languages, but different. Tell me what you think and if you don't agree with me prepare a proposal of your own, so that we can get this over with, Φαλεμινdέριτ. REX 19:29, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Why don't Theathenae and Chronographos produce some evidence to support their arguments like Albanau does, so we know who to believe. Personally, I don't wish to disagree with Albanau's sources. REX 20:00, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Φίλτατε Ρήγα, your proposal would be a breakthrough if only the likes of User:Albanau would accept it. It turns out our views on the subject are practically identical. Your phrasing is almost exactly what I had written before User:Albanau stormed in and insisted on calling them Albanians. He rabidly objected to the use of the term "people", insisting on "Albanian folkgrupp" instead. I have been saying all along that the Arvanites are a similar people to the Albanians, with partially intelligible languages, but different. The only modification I would make to your wording would be in regards to the language; "Arbëríshte shares a common origin" or "descends from the same root as Tosk Albanian" is a truer reflection of the linguistic situation, as they both descend from the same mediaeval proto-language, which I like to call proto-Arvanitic. "Arvanitic is a form of Tosk Albanian" implies that Arvanitic is somehow dependent on Tosk Albanian, when in fact it has developed entirely independently over the course of five centuries and can legimitately be classed as a separate language. Unfortunately, the term Albanian has very specific ethno-national(ist) connotations, so it is not equivalent to Scandinavian. If there was a neutral umbrella term covering all "Albanian" groups, I would use it.--Theathenae 20:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Νουκ jαμ ι ν̇ε̰ μενdjεjε jου, Κρονόγραφε. These are merely a few isolated examples, I am confident that under all the arguments everyone here agrees, we are all just trying to influence the outcome according to our political beliefs. And Chronographe, instead of causing trouble, why don't you try to help us come up with a solution? REX 20:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Theathenae, I am pleased that we are actually agreeing on something. However Arvanitic is a form of Tosk Albanian is not that bad. I mean that it is similar to saying that Hellenistic Greek is a form of Attic Greek, with the sole exception that Arvanites and Tosks are related while Hellenistic Greek was a lingua franca spoken by many people with little or no connections to the Ancient Athenians. They certainly were not dependent on the Ancient Athenians. It could also be compared to Spanish's relationship to Latin. They were once the same languages, then they began to differ. The standard Latin of Rome and the vulgar Latin of Spain. Spanish Latin was still a form of Standard Latin. Then after Arabic influences during the Middle Ages Spanish became similar to language we know today. Is it still not a form of Latin in the loose sense that Arvanitic is a form of Tosk. If we call it a form of Tosk, then even Albanau will be happy. Also, in Arvanitic χ is pronounced like the English letter h, which differs from the Greek letter χ. REX 21:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
REX, I agree with your proposal except in regards to the description of the language, as stated above. You still haven't explained what is wrong with my less controversial "sharing a common origin" or "descending from the same root" wording. The Arvanitic language article should stay as it is, except where User:Albanau claims that the Arvanites have been "forbidden" from learning their language. Have you as an Arvanite in Greece been forbidden from learning your language, REX? You seem to speak it rather fluently.--Theathenae 21:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Theathenae, there is nothing wrong with sharing a common origin or root, it's just that Albanau seems to prefer form of Tosk. I mean, we have to give him something. Also, I would like to thank Chronographos for all his hard work and contributions to the project. lol! REX 21:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You seem to have issues, some kind of complex maybe. Now that is sad. Are you by any chance Albanian. Oh! I blew your cover. Sorry! Anyway, are you Tosk or Gheg? REX 21:41, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
If all of us (bar one) agree there is nothing wrong with it, then that's how it shall stay. We are under no obligation to give User:Albanau anything; he will just have to learn to live with it. We are here to contribute to an online encyclopaedia, not to appease supporters of armed extremist groups like the supposed "Çamëria Liberation Army".[2]--Theathenae 21:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
OK by me. I suppose that we now agree on everything. I still think that we should ask Albanau for any other reasonable amendnents or oversights he would like to tell us. Better friends than enemies I always say. By the way, what is the Çamëria Liberation Army? REX 21:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
theathenae and xronographo are hopelessly trying to escape the kiss of death, loooool.
This issue has hereby been settled, with the agreement of everybody except Albanau. NEXT!--Theathenae 05:58, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Albanau says that Arvanites are the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry from central Albania that settled in various Greek lands during the Middle Ages and that is true isn't it? Anyhow, Theathenae says that he accepts the following Arvanites are a people originating in Central Albania who immigrated to Western Greece during the Middle Ages, which is almost the same thing. However, I find one small defect in that second definition. While it says that Arvanites immigrated to Greece at some point in the Middle Ages, the problem is that then Arvanites were the same as Tosk Albanians and that the differentiation began later, and it also implies that even before the immigration, Arvanites and Tosks were different peoples. That is quite misleading isn't it? Albanau also says that the Arvanitic language is a variety of Tosk Albanian, while Theathenae accepts that Arvanitic shares a common origin Tosk Albanian. While they are both true, it depends on your perspective. Albanau's input seems to treat Arbëríshte as a dialect of Albanian, while Theathenae's seems to treat it as a separate language. Politics no doubt, but unfortunately there is no Arvanitic Authority from whom we could find out whether it is a language or a dialect. However, respectable sources such as Ethnologue treat it as an Albanian dialect and my encyclopaedia calls Arvanites Αλβανόφωνοι Χριστιανοί (=Albanian speaking Christians). Also Albanau's reference to the Encyclopaedia Britannica (if it's genuine) could be acceptable. That encyclopaedia has a very good name and is respected throughout (not just the English speaking) world. I would also like to say that it is a bit unfair to accuse Albanau's input of appeasing political guerilla groups. I can't see any connection (unless of course Britannica was written by them). I wouldn't pay much attention to his other references, they are just private books, I could even write a book saying that the capital of Greece is Tokyo. REX 08:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, but at the heading Ethnologue says: Albanian, Arvanitika A language of Greece. In conjunction with the fact that the distinction between language and dialect is somewhat blurred (eg Cantonese and Mandarin are classed as dialects one language Chinese, even though the difference between them is like the one between Portuguese and Spanish, which are classed as different languages; Danish and Norwegian (Bokmål) are intelligible and are classed as different languages) I believe that we shouldn't really go into detail on the Arvanites page. That sort of lengthy discussion is for the Arvanitic language page (see there, we are calling it a language). Also, I disagree with your statement that calling the Albanians the descendants of Arvanites is actually more correct than the reverse or vice versa is wrong. Arvanites and Tosks are both seperate modern nations (sorry for using such a strong word) but they are very closely related (similar languages, similar religion (the Orthodox), similar (ethnic dress) dress, same history (up to a certain point) etc.). To get to the point, couldn't we say: Arvanites are an ethnic group descendent from the Tosk Albanians who immigrated to Greece during the Middle Ages and have been influenced strongly by their Greek surroundings and that their language Arbërishte is an offshoot of Medieval Tosk Albanian and is partially intelligible to speakers of Modern Tosk or their language Arbërishte is closely related and partially intelligible to Tosk Albanian? Are we reaching a concensus here? Do tell me, in your opinion aren’t Arvanites the Greek equivalent to the Italian Arbëreshë? REX 12:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
"""""I wouldn't pay much attention to his other references, they are just private books, I could even write a book saying that the capital of Greece is Tokyo."""""
loooooooooool, that is the least intelligent statement i have read from you rex, ok then, try to get your book published under the name of prestigious universities like cambridge, oxford, or princeton, good luck my friend.
""""Do you perceive yourself as the Black Widow? I thought that was your mother.""""
looooool, brilliant answer, lets degenerate the discussion to family insults, way to go grekos.
This really doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. Theathenae, please Cite your sources, preferably reliable sources before making such explosive claims. Who are the Original Arbërór when they're at home? Are or are not the Arvanites the descendants of Tosks who immigrated to Greece five hundred and something years ago? That is what the Arbëreshë are: descendants of Tosks who immigrated to Italy with Gj. K. Skanderbeg. Please read the Arbëreshë article. It mentions something about your Original Arbërór. I suggest that we request for Meditation. This might help us resolve this dispute. REX 15:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I’m not retracting it. I’m adding to it. I simply can’t see any point in omitting such vital information. Arvanites are (at least ethnically) more related to the Albanians than the Greeks. While originating in Central Albania is true, it is only half the truth (if it is true at all, because I don’t know where those facts come from). It must be made clear that the Arvanites are an Albanian ethnicity. Please read the Report on the Arvanites; you will see that it refers to the ancestors of the Arvanites as Albanians. REX 20:10, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
It says that most Arvanites resent being called Albanians. I am not calling them Albanians. I am calling their ancestors Albanians and them Arvanites (so does the Helsinki Report). REX 20:29, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Never mind that! I suggest you provide sound references to support your arguments or stand aside. You must cite your sources remember. Don't expect us to accept your word as infallible. REX 20:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Have you conidered the possibility that an ethnic Albanian is not the same as an Albanian ethnicity. You two instead of criticising, why don't you try to help us reach a concensus (remember cite your sources, if what you say is true, there must be some). REX 20:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
What's your point? What are you trying to prove? The descendant of the Albanian immigrants still present in Greece and Italy have been known by different names over time: Arbërorë, Arbënuer, Arbënorë, Arbëneshë, Arbëreshë and in a consensus reached in year 2004 from representatives of all respective regions the standardized name was agreed upon Arbërorë (plural) and to be used by all parties hereafter as also on all publications regarding these populations. Note the word Albanian immigrants. Wow, it looks that Albanian immirgants are still present in Greece. I wonder who they are, Vlachs maybe.REX 21:02, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be some persistent misunderstanding. Arvanites call themselves Arbëror (or sometimes Shqiptar). Chronographe, I didn't pretend to be Greek. If, as you say, Arvanites are Greeks, then I'm a Greek by your own definition. And finally, before you say anything. Be prepared to have to prove it. Albanau has provided sources, so that we can check his work. What about you? You just doubt his totally legitimate sources without stating any reasonable reason whatsoever! REX 08:20, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
About Meditation, should we request it. All those in favour, please add ther names here:
If three names are added I will apply for it. REX 10:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I request for outside Mediation, but Meditation might also be beneficial here... Decius 10:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I think that Έλληνας και Αρβανίτης differs from just Έλληνας, doesn't it. What is the straightforward lie? And for the record Do you speak Arvanitic is Flet Arbëríshte? Let's leave Albanau's references for now, let's focus on the Helsinki Report (or any other legitimate documents). Use that to support your arguments if you can (It even mentiones all these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece). lol! REX 13:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
What's outside Mediation. I think that standard Meditation would do. I might get this thing over with. REX 13:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I think that you may find this interesting. It is from the Helsinki Report:
When the modern Greek state was formed, the Albanian-speaking population and its language were called Albanian, even if those Christian Albanians were considered an integral part of the Greek nation and had played a decisive role in the War of Independence between 1821-1828 (Bartholdy, 1993; Bickford-Smith, 1993: 47; Embeirikos, 1994; Vakalopoulos, 1994:243-249). However, the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule, which were though considered as part of Greek irredenta; the other Balkan countries (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, and later Albania) had also followed similar policies. As elsewhere in Europe, army and education were the most effective mechanisms of Hellenization, assisted by the judiciary system ready to denounce and punish all forms of behavior inconsistent with the state’s nationalist culture (Kitromilidis, 1990:38; Kollias, 1994).
It is noteworthy to point out though, that, before the definite development of modern Albanian nationalism, there were efforts in the 1870’s to include most Albanians under Ottoman rule in a Greek-Albanian kingdom (Castellan, 1991:333; Vakalopoulos, 1994: 243-249), just as others appealed to them for their inclusion in an Albanian-Vlach Macedonian state (Berard, 1987:292-333). The Albanians’ fear of an eventual assimilation by the Greeks led to the failure of the former effort.
The result of the Hellenization policy -which was to take a very oppressive turn during the Metaxas dictatorship (1936-1940)- was that Albanian Greeks, especially after the emergence of Albanian nationalism and of the Albanian state, felt that they had to ‘constantly prove their Greekness.’ Hence, their very conservative political behavior: they had traditionally been royalists and, in large numbers, adhered to the Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian Church, which -when the split in the Greek Church over the introduction of the new calendar took place in the 1920’s- was originally supported by the royalist forces. Moreover, and more important for the survival of their language, they have distanced themselves from the Albanians to the extent that most consider today offending to be called Albanians: they have preferred the term Arvanite (Arberor in their own language) for the people and Arvanitika (Arberichte) for the language, as opposed to Albanian (Shqiptar for the people and Shqip for the language) that Albanians use for themselves and their language -with the exception of the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece, as mentioned above. This attitude may also explain the efforts of some intellectuals of the Arvanite community to trace Arvanites’ and Arvanitika’s roots back to the prehistoric inhabitants of Greece, the Pelasgians and their language, so as to claim indigenous status (Williams, 1992:87; Gerou, 1994b; Thomopoulos, 1912).
Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies. In another Balkan context, such attitude helped distance the literary Macedonian language standardized by Yugoslav authorities in the late 1940s from Bulgarian to which the previously spoken dialects in Yugoslav Macedonia were heteronomous.
I think that this is clear enough. REX 14:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that the ancestors of the Arvanites were Albanians and that Arvanites were called Albanians until the application of the Hellenization policy. REX 14:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
For the benefit of those who have (prematurely) called for mediation: Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes--Theathenae 14:33, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Well you should organise everything then. I just think that Balkan politics (that is what all this is about) is a rather specialised and complex area to request opinions from. REX 14:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
This dispute has been going on for over a month now and I see no sign of a quick resolution, so Mediation does in fact seem to be needed, the only problem there is that few admins know much about the politics and facts and opinions involved here. Decius 14:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Decius is right. This debate is goin around in circles. Chronographos and Theathenae still haven't proven their views. They expect us to just accept them. REX 15:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
1) This has been going on since June 5th (see edit history of Arvanites) 2) the page is protected from editing till the dispute is resolved on the talk page 3) the dispute shows no sign of resolving soon. So it seems like a case to move towards Mediation. Decius 15:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
If someone's waiting for me to start it, they can keep waiting. I'm only getting involved here & there, and I'm mostly watching how this develops. Decius 15:48, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand what all the brouhaha is about. The Arvanites' situation is analogous if not identical to that of the Vlachs in Greece. I have had some minor differences with the Rumanian editors here, but they have not insisted on calling the Greek Vlachs ethnic Rumanians or the descendants of Rumanians. The Aromanians and Aromanian language articles represent a fair balance, one achieved without resorting to mediation or other extremes. REX is right; this is all about contemporary Balkan politics, with Albanian editors objecting to anything that deviates from the dogma of pan-Albanianism, which for obvious reasons is today a more virulent strain of nationalism than that of the EU-bound Rumanians. But it doesn't have to be like this; the Albanians belong in Europe too, and the sooner they abandon their dangerous ultra-nationalism, the sooner they will get there. As for Wikipedia, the Albanian editors should take a leaf out of their Rumanian brethren's book.--Theathenae 15:58, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I never said that Avanites are Albanians. I said that their ancestors were Albanians (like the Helsinki Report does), something which Theathenae is determined to gloss over. I am happy with the article as it is now and I'm trying to convince Theathenae that it must stay this way. If he can find reasonalbe proof that the Arvanites' ancestors were not Albanians then I'll willingly consent to the edit. But he doesn't do that. He insists on not including the word Albanian in the article and replaces it with things like "Arbanoi". That is a Greek word. This is an English encyclopaedia. Only legitimate English words can be used. All English sources have always called the Albanians Albanians, just as they have always called the Turks Turks. I still insist on Meditation. REX 16:26, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
No no no no. Vlach can be found in the OED. Anyway, I have been reading the articles Aromanians and Aromanian language and I do like them. Do you think that we could use those articles as templates? They omit anything controversial of they state both opinions: Romanian nationalist and Greek supremacist. Off the record: If you want to support you opinions, GET SOME SOURCES! You do try to promote Greek supremacist ideas even on Talk:Aromanian_language. REX 17:31, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I guess it now rests on REX and the opposing parties to describe what they want the article to say. Decius 19:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
You are speaking generally. The Helsinki report says that MOST Arvanites reject being called Albanians, these Arvanites live generally live in South Greece. Other Arvanites who mostly live in Northwest Greece do call themselves Albanians. Of course these distinctions are not absolute. I am from Southern Greece (Hydra) and I do not reject the name Albanian, so we can assume that there is at least one Arvanite from Southern Greece who doesn’t. Anyway, to get to the point is this what is going to be done: All references to Greece or Albania shall be avoided with the following exceptions:
With the benefit of hindsight, I strongly urge you to remember: the less said, the better. Also, do we request for Meditation after all, or should we wait? REX 19:48, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Chronographe, what are you talking about? There must be. (personal information removed per user request). Please check again. And Theathenae, prove that that you are saying about assimilation. I agree with everything else words like ethnic and national are controversial. REX 20:31, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Could you check (personal information removed per user request) then. REX 20:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I think that YOU are Lying. You are trying to discredit me! Don't ask me why. I don't believe that you even have the OTE white pages whatever that is. Well it is NOT funny so you should stop it. REX 20:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I never said I'd never heard of OTE. I said that I'd never heard of the white pages. And Theathenae, who says that my views represent a negligible fringe element. Yes it is not the view of the Arvanitikos Syndesmos Ellados, but many Arvanites feel the same way. Especially in Northwestern Greece. Sadly, I can't prove it, but you can't prove the reverse. I strongly believe that we CAN make an article together. Do not pay any attention to Chronographos. He has been of no help. All he does is try to cause trouble. If only he spent the time he spends thinking up lies about me trying to improve the article. REX 21:19, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Not according to the Helsinki Report, which describes them as Arvanites. That's not important though, it needn't even be mentioned in the article. And just for the record: I'll defend the Arvanites right to be Albanians until the end. REX 21:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Κjο έ̰σ̈τε̰ ε βε̰ρτέτε̰, Δεαθήναι. REX 22:07, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Αυτό δεν το ξέρεις. Τι θα γίνει όμως με το άρθρο; Συμφωνήσαμε σε κάτι ή θα συνεχήσουμε να μιλάμε για βλακείες; REX 22:22, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Τι; Δεν καταλαβαίνω; Να σας καταγγείλω για ρατσισμό εις βάρους Αρβανίτη στην επιτροπή; REX 22:36, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
No no no, I didn't. There were no lies to expose. I, you or anybody have not proven anything, so no offence if nobody takes you seriously. REX 22:45, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I never said that, you should polish your glasses. I stated that Arvanites were Greek citizens, were descendants of Albanians and now neither Greeks nor Albanians. Complex combination I know, but that's it. REX 22:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused again, but I don't care what REX's personal opinions are any more. Συννυφάδες notwithstanding, I think we have a tentative agreement on what to do with the article, based on REX's proposal above. To quote him, the less said, the better. All those in favour say aye.--Theathenae 22:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I think User:MacGyverMagic can unprotect it, or another admin. Decius 23:07, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Any admin can do it, unless I'm mistaken. Decius 23:12, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The more formal procedure is through this page:Wikipedia:Requests for page protection, which is also for unprotecting. But I've seen people just ask admins on their talk pages to protect or unprotect. Decius 00:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
logged out... --Albanau 00:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I think that you all need to realise that in order to change an article, you need to have to prove why. Chronographos and Theathenae have yet to prove their position, despite the regular requests for them to do so. As I have said, many times: the Helsinki Report refers to the ancestors of the Arvanites as Albanians, and if it’s good enough for an Official Report, it is good enough for Wikipedia. Of course far right extremist groups in Greece such as the Χρυσή Αυγή or the political party Λ.Α.Ο.Σ. don’t like that, but I don’t think that that should affect the article. Also, Theathenae and Chronographe I think that I should request, with all the earnestness possible, do NOT make racist remarks. Wikipedia is not the place for that kind of thing. REX 10:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The official site of the largest Arvanitic association of Greece: http://arvasynel.gr - There isn't a single reference to the Arvanites as "Albanians".--Theathenae 10:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, that is one of the organisations which describe Arvanites as descendants of the Pelasgians. It represents just one point of view. The many views are discussed in the Helsinki Report which is by definition impartial. REX 12:49, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
REX, yesterday you were saying you want to go ahead and work out a compromise in the text, using Aromanians and Aromanian language as Templates. If so, then somebody should request that the page be unprotected here:Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Albanau apparently hasn't changed his mind on the formula Albanian ancestry in the main description, but it doesn't depend on Albanau here. He might (about a 35% chance) even agree to a new format. I'm wondering though whether you are willing to let go of that phrase in the main description (your latest comment indicates a return to Albanau's position, but you haven't said explicitly whether you want the phrase Albanian ancestry in the main description). If not, then there is no compromise (that's the main point), and all your comments towards compromise would be rendered irrelevant. The page should then as well stay protected for awhile longer. Decius 15:03, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
An example of a more neutral treatment would be: "Arvanites are descendants of settlers from central Albania who were of the same ethnicity as the ancestors of today's Tosk Albanians"---something along these lines. As you can see, it is presenting the same fact, but without saying of "Albanian ancestry". Just because Brittanica or Helsinki says it in a certain way, doesn't mean Wikipedia has to echo them exactly. Wikipedia's whole point is that it is more free and flexible. Decius 15:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I've got another proposal which is pretty god and perhaps better then yours, "Arvanites are descendants of the Arberesh people or the Albanian people from central Arbëria (i.e. medieval Albania) who migrated to Greece during the late Middle Ages". Albanau 15:52, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
It might've been better if not for "or the Albanian people". Decius 16:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
You guys can figure something out, this isn't my "battle" here, but it parallels the Aromanian case which was resolved along these lines (though actually what resolved the Aromanian case is the fact that Romanians don't really care whether the Aromanians choose to consider themselves as a southern variant of Romanians or a separate Vlach group from a common Vlach stock; the Aromanians don't really fit in any current nationalist Romanian scheme). Decius 16:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Don't ask me, I'm not the one whose ancestors are at issue here. Since most Arvanites (Arvanite Greeks) apparently do not like the term Albanian applied even to their ancestors, a different phrasing would perhaps be best (though we don't have any opinion polls that prove that most Arvanites would take offense to Albanian ancestry). Decius 16:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I didn't say that it "changes the historical reality of the situation", I'm saying the same reality can be described in a different manner. Decius 16:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
And how would that be described as? Cause when we Albanians talk about the Arbëresh we are talking about the medieval Albanians or the descendants of the Albanian immigrants still present in Italy, and Arbërorët are the descendants of the Albanian immigrants still prestent in Greece, called the Arvanitís in Greek and Arbéror in their language. So actually it would be better to phrase it like this ""Arvanites are descendants of the Arbëror people or Albanian people from central Arbëria (i.e. medieval Albania) who migrated to Greece during the late Middle Ages" would be a good phrase. --Albanau 17:02, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
To put it bluntly, your phrase looks to be 100% accurate as long as a reader understands what Albanian implies in this context. "I" do not have a problem with your phrase. But most Arvanites might have a problem with it; and since the same historical reality can be described in a less obtrusive way, then why not try a different phrasing in the main description. Any ambiguity will be made clear later on in the text as the problem is explicitly described from different view points. Decius 17:08, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I made it very clear and un--Albanau 18:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC)derstandable,, descendants of the Albanian people from medieval Albania. Do we really need to discuss something that is improper to say some Arvanites will a problem with it. Either are you a Arvanite or not, and being Arvanite means that you are part of the Arvanites people who are descendants of the Albanian people from medieval Albania who migrated to Greece during the late Middle Ages. Albanau 17:21, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't think any one can put forth a credible argument that Arvanites and (Tosk) Albanians were not once the same basic ethnicity (which is termed Albanian in the references we've seen so far). Many Arvanites still speak Arvanitic, which is in the same group as Tosk. These are the facts we've repeated a hundred times. The issue is how do we describe these facts in the text so that many Arvanites will not be offended. I don't plan on repeating myself on this topic over & over. The Wikipedia text can be more flexible while still presenting the same facts. Decius 17:45, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
.. also,, there is no way that Theathenae will accept simple facts, I'm already in edit war with him again, on the article Albania. --Albanau 18:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
What do you think of this? It's just a first draft, but I think that it is both truthful, impartial and represents both sides of the argument. I modeled it mostly on the page Aromanians but that is not always possible in some areas. Iwill be thankful of any assistance. Please fell free to comment. I am sure that it will have to be amended before publishing it.
Arvanites (in Arvanitic: Αρbε̰ρόρ, Arbërór or Σ̈κ̇ιπτάρ, Shqiptár, in Greek: Αρβανίτες Arvanítes and in Albanian: Arvanitë) are a people living mostly in western Greece. Their current population is estimated at anywhere from 140,000 to 1,600,000. (It is not possible to give an exact figure as Greece has not held a census of mother-tongue speakers since 1951).
Their language is called Arvanitic, although today very few Arvanites speak only Arvanitic. They are either bilingual or speak only Greek.
Name
The name Arvanite derives from the medieval Greek word for the Albanians: Αρβανίται Arbanítai. Most Arvanites today though still call themselves Αρbε̰ρόρ Arbërór, the medieval name that Albanians used for themselves. However in northwestern Greece Arvanites refer to themselves as Σ̈κ̇ιπτάρ Shqiptár, which is what modern Albanians call themselves. It should be noted that most Arvanites, particularly in southern Greece reject being called Albanians and prefer the term Arvanites.
Demographics etc.
REX 19:50, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
You needn't be so harsh Chronographe.
I apologise for that oversight. Human make mistakes. Can you prove to us now that most Arvanites live in Attica. I think you can't. I think that you are lying. Why though. REX 21:13, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
You don't know if I lied if the total population ratio is 5:1 for Attica:Provinces then it is not necesserily the same ratio for a minority population. Learn your Maths. REX 22:36, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Pangalos does not represent all the Arvanites. He is just a prominent one. REX 21:13, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Very droll, you should see straw man. REX 22:36, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Why? REX 21:13, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I have not been caught lying because I never lied. Let's go back to the Helsinki Report. It refers to the ancestors of the Arvanites as Albanians:
The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece. REX 21:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Typical isn't it, Chronographos rejects my evidence because it enables my views to be published in the article and he just doesn't happen to agree with them because they are harmful to his agenda. Above, I have laid LEGITIMATE evidence that the ancestors of the Arvanites can be called Albanians and therefore CAN be used in the article according to Wikipedia policy. I hope you know that removing accurate facts constitutes VANDALISM. REX 22:36, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree. A legitimate source refers to the ancestors of the Arvanites, so we can say: Arvanites are the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry from central Albania that settled in various Greek lands during the Middle Ages. If anyone tries to remove it without stating why, they will be guilty of Wikipedia:How_to_spot_vandalism#Disguised_Vandalism_and_Stalking_Vandalism. REX 08:56, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
If all that is true, it doesn't changed the issues. I have proved that it IS possible to say that the ancestors of the Arvanites were Albanians. Removing these actual facts from the article is Vandalism and you should just accept the facts. REX 12:23, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Chronographe, you mustn't lie. It is a sin. My accusations of Vandalism are conditional and you know it. You just like lying. REX 17:41, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Who cares about Greek propaganda? I hanen't seen any. Why can't Chronographos just accept the evidence. The Helsinki Report refers to the ancestors of the Arvanites as Albanians. Perhaps Chronographos believes that the Halsinki report was composed by Albanian nationalists. IT IS THE TRUTH WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT! REX 12:18, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Theathanae you are ignorant and don't accept simple facts let alone discussing like sensible person. Your user Arvanítis have been banned many times in the swedish wikipedia when you have acted this way, trying to claim the Arvanites as an Greek ethnic group speaking a language related to Albanian. Surely, sooner or later you will be stoped. Albanau 16:29, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Theathenae and Chronographos are being unreasonable. Before making statements one must be prepared to have to prove them when they are challenged. The ancestors of the Arvanites are Albanians as the Helsinki Report states. If Theathenae and Chronographos cannot accept these proven facts, they will just have to withdraw. Wikipedia policy must be observed. REX 17:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I would like to pass on some information:
So I assume that the page can be now unprotected and the above proven facts be added to it and it will remain that way until the opposite can be proven. Agreed? REX 09:49, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I followed the link theathenae gave us and found this! Is this arvanitic language? I would like to hear your opinion about it. If true, it is fascinating that ancient writings in Arbanitic language have been discovered! Kemla 09:52, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
According to MSN Encarta: two variants of Tosk have developed over 500 years in Italy and Greece, brought there by emigrants and mercenary soldiers from Albania. Arvanitika is spoken in some rural enclaves of Greece, primarily by older people; and Arbëreshë is spoken in southern Italy.
So I guess we can refer to Arvanitic as a variety of Tosk and until you can prove otherwise, don't change it. REX 10:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with the edit? I just entered something that is true and I proved it using a legitimate source. Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk. What does that have to do with out little chat yesterday? REX 10:54, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Tosk is actually a dialect of Albanian and the division between Tosk and Gheg already existed before the immigration of Tosk-speaking Albanians (you can check the dates in the Helsinki Report). What is important here is that sources other than Wikipedia (The Helsinki Report and more recently MSN Encarta), which can be considered neutral and impartial, do refer to the ancestors of the Arvanites as (Tosk) Albanians and refer to Arvanitic (Arvanitika) as a dialect/variety of Tosk Albanian. Therefore this proves that those terms can be used in (what is supposed to be) a neutral encyclopaedia article. So why do you insist so firmly that these phrasings cannot be used? I did agree with you when you said that Arvanitic and Tosk were unintelligible to speakers of Gheg. I changed it, didn't I? The article doesn't say that now, does it? REX 14:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
What I certainly didn't like was your phrase until you can prove otherwise, don't change it, because I really think that you were both talking about the same thing. Arvanites origin from Tosks and that's a fact, but Arvanites evolved on their own and Tosks on their own. MATIA 14:41, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
It's just that sharing a common origin with Tosk is quite misleading; you see Gheg does shares a common origin with Tosk, but when the migrations happened, the modern Arvanites' ancestors were already called Tosks and had already differentiated themselves from the Ghegs. Do you think that we could say that Arvanitic shares a common origin with Modern Tosk? REX 15:50, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
The word modern is implied in the phrase sharing a common origin with Tosk, yet I haven't seen a reference of the term modern Tosk. MATIA 15:55, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Well I haven't seen a reference for the phrase sharing a common origin with Tosk. I mean the only reason for not using the phrasing Their language, Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk Albanian, which I remind you can be used, is to please a few far-right wing Greeks. REX 16:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand, what are you trying to say? Today, Tosk is obviously different from the Tosk as spoken five hundred and something years ago, but doesn't it remain the same language. If modern Greek and ancient Greek are actually the same language as most Greek scholars claim, why can't Tosk change over the years? What I'm saying is that Tosk as spoken today and Arvanitic as spoken today, were the same language about six hundred years ago: Tosk of that period, which had already differentiated itself from Gheg. REX 17:36, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Now you are getting somewhere: the Tosk of that days, or something similar, is the common origin of Arvanitic and Tosk as spoken today. MATIA 18:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, but also a variety of Tosk, if you read the article dialect you will see that this way Arvanitic could be called a dialect of Tosk. It could also be called a seperate language but that is for politics to dictate. Equally all are fine answers, but which one do we use and why? REX 22:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been doing some reading on this subject and I believe that the only truly neutral way of phrasing is to say: Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk Albanian. I mean according to the Wikipedia article Variety (linguistics), variety could mean that Arvanitic is merely an Albanian dialect, but it could also mean that it is a separate language genetically related to Tosk. This is ideal, as it has not been officially established whether Arvanitic is a language or a dialect. In my rather humble view a far-right Albanian nationalist would like to have the article say that Arvanitic is an Albanian dialect, while a far-right member of the Χρυσή Αυγή would like to say that Arvanitic is a separate language from Albanian altogether (but as it is obvious, sharing a common origin with it). As, as I have already said, neither view has been officially established (linguists don't seem to care much for this beautiful language) the term 'variety' could well mean both and so there would be no disputes. Also as a respectable source (MSN Encarta) refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Tosk, this proves that the term can be used in an encyclopaedia article. How perfect can it be? Tell me what you think. REX 23:39, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Are we reaching a consensus here? REX 14:06, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Δεαθηναι, have you not read a single word I've said? Who are we to say if Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian or a separate language? The word variety is neutral it could mean any of the above. If you like however, let's play your game. Cantonese is discribed as being a dialect of Chinese, the standerd dialect being Mandarin. These languages are obviously more different than Arvanitic and Tosk, therefore, we can call Arvanitic an Albanian dialect, the standard version being Tosk. Brilliant huh? A (respectable source) refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Tosk, this is more reasonable than you non-existing sources. REX 17:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
To bring this thing to a close, let's use Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk. It is used by a respectable source, it is not open to misinterpritation and it neutral (see Wikipedia:NPOV). I hope you know that removing accurate data or turning NPOV into POV is Wikipedia:Vandalism. REX 18:05, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
REX yesterday wrote that In my rather humble view a far-right Albanian nationalist would like to have the article say that Arvanitic is an Albanian dialect... so I guess you too agree now. That's nice. MATIA 18:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Have you noticed that ethnologue.com on the page about Arvanitic at the heading says Arvanitika, Albanian? How do you explain that? I'm not saying that Arvanitic is an Albanian dialect, nor am I saying that it is not. That is the beauty of the word variety. It not specifically calls the language either of the above, whereas you want to call it a seperate language, the far-right Greek line. So to get back to the point, I'll say that if another encyclopaedia can use the word variety, so can WP. REX 18:58, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I must tell you that I find the term far-right-wing offensive since I don't have anything to do with that term, so if you refer to me again as such or as a Greek nationalist I'll have to report you. But perhaps you didn't mean that...
I gave you the term from ethnologue and I guess they'll be offended too if you call them with any of those terms. Ethnologue members are linguists, I 'm not, that's the reason I gave you their definition.
MATIA 19:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it can be a dialect or a standard language. Furthermore you seem to be forgetting that the Wikipedia article is Arvanitic language, not Arvanitic. And who made that change, I believe that it was ME (see how can I then be an Albanian nationalist). So, if you think about it, that in conjunction with the word variety ultimately implies that Arvanitic is a language in its own right and has a standard version. The far-right Greek stance, but it does not exclude the possibility of Arvanitic being an Albanian dialect. That would not enable Albanian nationalists to complain. See, the ideal combination. But of course, understanding this thought process requires impartiality, not being a narrow minded far-right Greek fanatic like certain individuals who I don’t care to name. Also, you didn’t answer my question: why does Ethnologue say Arvanitika, Albanian? That could constitute grounds for an Albanian nationalist to insist on Arvanitic being an Albanian dialect. I’m choosing to ignore that and insist on calling Arvanitic a variety of Albanian which both has the above benefits, but also is used by a fellow encyclopaedia, therefore it can be used and truly is neutral. REX 19:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Don’t change the subject (I previously demonstrated that I don’t support Albanian nationalism, I moved the article from Arvanitic to Arvanitic language). The word variety is the only true neutral term and you know it. Both far-right Greeks AND Albanians can’t complain. It is perfect. Anyway, you can’t challenge it. A fellow encyclopaedia uses my phrasing and no encyclopaedia uses your phrasing. Therefore, we will just have to use the word variety. REX 19:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Back then, only I was editing the page. Check the history section and you'll see. Anyway, nobody objected. Also, Don't change the subject. We are talking about why the word variety should be used. REX 20:11, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear REX I'm afraid you are falling into a vicious cycle. Please check ethnologue and all my comments and if you really disagree with something cross-check it and then let us know. MATIA 20:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you MATIA. You are the only reasonable person here. Theathenae is utterly useless; he has yet to present a logical argument. While I believe that Arvanitic shares a common origin with Tosk is a perfectly fine answer, I believe that it has some major defects which Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk doesn't. Namely:
I now urge you to try to think neutrally (just in case you aren’t). The word variety has no such defects, as it could mean dialect and it can mean standard language in its own right. If we use your way sooner or later there will be a dispute involving someone who says that Arvanitic is an Albanian dialect (don’t forget, they can find at least one argument supporting the fact that Arvanitic can be called Albanian, the heading at the entry on ethnologue.com). By using the word variety we might be able to avoid such disputes (unless of course he wants to call the page Arvanitic). Remember, the phrasing Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is used by Encarta, which was written by professional scholars, not amateurs like us. They didn’t seem to have the same objections as you. You can’t challenge that. So, I think we should use that phrasing and end this insipid discussion. Just answer with a YES or a NO (including an explanation) please, because if you start commenting on something else, we’ll start going around in circles again. REX 21:15, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Can you not just accept this simple fact (instead of resorting to straw man arguments about vicious circles):
By the Greek government. That's how Serbian and Bosnian are seperate languages not just varieties of the same language, because there is legislation recognising them as such. Had the Greek government recongised Arvanitic as a language or a dialect of Albanian, we could have used that. But they haven't, tharafore it could be either. Either meaniang variety (linguistics). REX 08:54, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
If saying Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is so wrong, why then does Encarta use it? Encarta is edited by professional scholars. Are you expecting us to accept that you know better than them. Your definition is entirely without precedent and can easilly be challenged by anyone, while mine is quoted by professionals. REX 09:29, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should start seeing about Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. That is unless of course you are afraid. REX 09:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Variety (linguistics) also implies a common origin. Don't two dialects or two closely related languages ALWAYS have a common origin? It is just that your terminology is slightly inaccurate given that that common origin was still (Medieval)Tosk. So for it to be accurate, we could say Arvanitic shates a common origin with Modern Tosk. REX 10:16, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Please do so REX, perhaps if someone else see what you've been doing, he could be able to help you. And as I've answered to you on my talk page, Ethnologue are professional linguists too. You are falling into vicious circles, and though I wish I could, I cannot help you. MATIA 09:45, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not afraid of anything. I just asked for a Wikipedia:Third opinion. Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is better than Arvanitic shares a common origin with Tosk because professional scholars have themselves said Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk. REX 10:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
It is not vicious circle (stop that straw man argument). Ethnologue are professional linguists and they say Albanian, Arvanitika. You still can't explain that can you? REX 09:53, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I haven't requested for a third opinion, I requested for comment. REX 10:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Therefore we can use the phrasing Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk Albanian. You will not have the right to remove it (when I add it). That would be Wikipedia:Vandalism (removing accurate facts because you disagree with them and not being able to prove your changes). Please behave like responsable adults and accept the facts. Thank you very much in advance. REX 10:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
So, Tosk and Gheg have been developing separatly from each other. They are still considered dialects of the same language. See Chinese language most of the Chinese dialects differ more from each other and have evolved separatly from each other. Do you know what a dialect is? It is a variety of language which differs from other varieties of the same language for various reasons (such as isolations) and has developed separatly. Why don't we stop calling Cypriot Greek a variety of Greek but call it a separate language which developed separatly. Anyway as MATIA says, the UN always has the fianl say (see Talk:Republic of Macedonia) and UNESCO sees Arvanitic as a diaspora dialect of Albanian therefore we have no choise but to say that. REX 10:50, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Please wait for the linguists. Check WP:COOL. MATIA 10:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't distort facts and be carefull when you mention my name. MATIA 10:53, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I did not distort facts, but sorry for using your name if you indeed don't believe that the UN has the final say. That will come in useful in Talk:Macedonia. REX 10:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
What Theathenae says here is wrong. Check Talk:Arvanites#Accept the facts where I have demonstrated that here Theathenae is just playing with the words. REX 15:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
That doesn't mean that two nations can't share two dialects of the same language. That has occured in Belgium, Finland, Belorussia, The Ukraine and many more outside Europe. So there is still no reason to say that Arvanitic is not a variety of Tosk. REX 16:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I think that while Theathenae has the best intentions his edits are too POV. I have provided references from various respectable sources which clearly refer to Arvanitic as a variety of Albanian. I find it hard to believe that UNESCO, Encarta Encyclopaedia and Ethnologue are wrong ant Theathenae is right. He may be, but he still hasn't proved his point. His statement that Arvanitic has developed separately from Tosk Albanian and has been heavily influenced by Greek over the course of the past five centuries, to the extent that it is today considered a separate language by speakers and linguists alike is just untrue. There is no reference whatsoever to suggest that Arvatitic speakers and linguists view it as a separate language from Albanian. So far, Theathenae has indicated that he is not willing to cooperate and seems unwilling to understand that I am not prepared to accept only his word for such a questionable claim while respectable sources say the exact opposite. I do hope that he is willing to cooperate to find a truthfual and impartial solution. REX 13:51, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
So, you still haven't proven you claims, nor have you dicredited mine. And on the subject of elections I'll have you know that I vote Labour. I think you should realise that that best intentions thing was just politeness. Something you obviously don't understand! REX 14:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
PERSONAL ATTACK ALARM! It seems that when Theathenae can't prove his point he tries to scare away someone else who has proven their point. REX 14:28, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
REX do you dispute that Arvanites have their own history? MATIA 13:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA I believe it. But if it can't be proved then it shouldn't be included in an encyclopaedia. REX 13:57, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I think that it should be pointed out that one nations language being another nations language is not impossible. The Flemings of Belgium speak a language called Flemish which could accuratly be called Dutch which is the national language of the Netherlands. In fact on the page Belgium it is discribed as Dutch. Are we by calling the language of the Flemings Dutch denying their right to nationhood and self-determination? REX 14:05, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
If you believe it then why did you remove that phrase? I 've mentioned before that I have a lot friends who are Arvanites. One of them told me that he would bring me a book about Arvanites, but unfortunately he is too busy these days and we haven't yet met. I'd suggest if you believe it to check for sources that verify or deny it. I'm afraid though, that I don't understand the reason we argue about. MATIA 14:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
We are arguing because there is no proof. You can't add something to an encyclopaedia without being absolutly certain and that requires Reliable sources that someone else can check like I did: Ethnologue, UNESCO and Encarta encyclopaedia. REX 14:33, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA why are we discussing this? Every nation has its history. I would like to know why you reject my sources:
I mean its obvious. Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian. REX 14:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you should check Anna Comnene that Theathenae mentioned, Bambiniotis (I think he was quoted about Arvanites or Albanians at a talk page, but I can't remember exactly when) and perhaps you can do what I did: ask any Arvanites you know about it and discuss with them too, the issues that may, or may not, trouble you. MATIA 14:40, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Is Anna Comnenos saying that Arvanitic is not a dialect of Tosk. If not, then it doesn't concern me. And just in case you are interested I have an Arvanitic background, I can't speak the language though. REX 14:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I would like to say that Arvanitic is a varity of Tosk, not a dialect. It is a fairly neutral term which admits that Arvanitic could be a language in its own right. REX 14:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I hope you are not saying that Encarta, UNESCO and Ethnologue are wrong. Because I will NOT accept anything without sources. REX 14:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
First of all I must apologise to REX and Damac, it seems that I've accidentaly erased part of their comments. I was checking the history of the talk page and I saw that. I believe that I restored them the way they were, I can't understand how this occured (software bug?) and I'm really sorry.
REX about the sources: I told you what I did, perhaps you can check for sources with the Arvanites you know. I can't help you right now, perhaps I could give you some sources to check, if and when my friends brings me that book. MATIA 14:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I'm in England now, there aren't many Arvanites here. That is if you exclude me. This book, what is it called (if you know that is). I may be able to find it here (that is unlikely though). Can't we just accept what UNESCO, Ethnologue and Encarta say, I mean books just transmit the author's POV. Didn't you say: UNO is the supreme law on the Talk:Republic of Macedonia. Can't we accept their view here that Arvanitic is a diaspora dialect of Tosk? REX 15:08, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I've protected this page because of an ongoing revert war between User:REX and User:Theathenae. Please note that this is not an obvious case of vandalism, but rather a regular edit dispute. So please, take a break and try to work out a consensus that all parties can live with. This isn't so hard when you consider that it is not your job to decide which view is correct, but to summarize all views fairly. If you have sources for the view you are advocation, great, please list them below in such a way that makes it easy to incorporate them into the article. One possible compromise would then to say something along the lines of "Smith[1] argues that ..., but Jones[2] has expressed the view that ...". There are of course more elegant ways, but something simple like "one the one hand X, but on the other hand Y" will suffice for now (provided that X and Y can be verifiably attributed to some relevant authorities). Thanks, --MarkSweep✍ 13:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I am asking everyone (including Damac and MarkSweep) to read (that would be read again for Theathenae and REX) the whole Talk:Arvanites and also Talk:Arvanitic language. Thanks. MATIA 13:58, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to make some things perfectly clear:
The similarities between these dialects can be seen by comparing:
Anyway I urge you all to reconsider using the terminology that UNESCO approves. Using that we can't go wrong. No offence but Theathenae's way of phrasing it has no references that match UNESCO in credibility. REX 17:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
My dear friends, before we start worrying about Serbian and Croatian lets concentrate a little on the Chinese language. This language is made up of various dialect with enormous differences between them. Each of these dialects is referred to as a variety of Chinese. If we follow your way of thinking then that would be inappropriate because each of these dialects was never called Chinese. In fact Chinese is a term which was coined for all of them on the unification of China. Before that they were languages in their own right and some people still consider them to be so. The fact that Anna Comnena was speaking Greek in her works is of much significance because all we learn from her works was that then the Greek name for these people was Arbanoi, not the name that they used for themselves (imagine saying that the Hungarian name for Hungary is Ungaria because that is what it is called in Greek, the Hungarian name for Hungary is Magyaroszag). So the fact that you say that they called themselves Arbëror is just guesswork. We have no idea what they called themselves. What is imporatant here is that credible sources (ie UNESCO) refer to Arvanitic as an Albanian dialect. Why can't we? All you do is just keep changing the subject and refusing to answer the question: Why can't we refer to the language the same way that UNESCO, Encarta and Ethnologue do? If you answer this question, the going around in circles as you call it MATIA will cease. REX 18:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you should write to the UN, Ethnologue and Encarta telling them that they are wrong whereas you are right. My sources were compiled by professionals. They know what they were doing and this proves that the scientific establishment views Arvanitic as a dialect of Tosk. Even the Helsinki report implies that researchers and/or human and minority rights activists have referred to Arvanitic as an Albanian dialect. If you are so so concerned about the validity of the Helsinki Report how can you explain that it says the following:
The first Christian Albanian' migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece. Are all those references to Albanians anachronisms? You seem to think that they were called something else, what was it? Oh yes, Arbëror (you didn't prove it mind you). The Helsinki report also doesn't seem to have a problem referring to the ancestors of the Arvanites as Albanians does it? Does that not mean that the language of the Arvanites' ancestors was Albanian given that their ancestors were called Albanians. Over the years the language of the descendants of these Albanians evolved into the four major dialects: Tosk, South of the Shkumbini River; Gheg North of the Shkumbini River; Arbëreshe in Italy and Arvanitic in Greece. REX 19:24, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll say it again. If UNESCO can call Arvanitic an Albanian dialect, so can Wikipedia. Even your quote from the Helsinki Report: most linguists use the word Albanian for that language proves that Arvanitic can be called Albanian. You are just trying to get politics involved aren't you? Wikipedia should be neutral like UNESCO. If all Arvanites resented the term Albanians then some of them wouldn't use the term Shqiptar to describe themselves (Helsinki report). You didn't really rebuff my arguments, did you? REX 19:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
You have run out of arguments and you are now falling back on that old gambit. That is just your POV anyway (that it is Albanian nationalism). My views are UNESCO's views (I want to say exactly what UNESCO says: Arvanitic is a variety of Albanian) while you want to publish POV unjustified far-right Greek statements. Is UNESCO run by Albanian nationalists? You can't continue promoting lies on Wikipedia. Wikipedia policy prohibits that. REX 20:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't be silly, you don't know that all Arvanites resent being called Albanians. Some of them wouldn't describe themselves as Shqiptar if that was so, despite the fact that Greek extremists would like to believe the reverse. I am proposing that we use UNESCO's wording, Ethnologue's wording and Encarta's wording, whereas you are proposing something unheard of. Something entirely without references. I don't even want to say Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian. I would like to say that it is a variety (linguistics) of Albanian (look up the term, please) which can have a slightly different meaning. This is my concession to you because I know how much you resent the UN and reject their wording (this will come in handy on Talk:Republic of Macedonia). REX 07:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Folks, this talk page is very long. Can you refactor it a bit, and perhaps archive older debates that have been resolved?
If you all want, please try to fill in the next section. Treat it like an article, i.e., write it in a neutral fashion and don't sign your posts. Comments can go in a separate section, which you can treat like a regular talk page again. --MarkSweep✍ 13:32, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Treat everything below this line as if it were an article. Fill in the details to give neutral statement of what the dispute is about and what everybody's position is.
The dispute concerns the linguistic status of Arvanitic. User:REX claims to have provided credible sources (one of them is an agency of the UN) to support his arguments which are that Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk Albanian. User:Theathenae and User:Matia.gr insist on Arvanitic being a separate language altogether. User:REX would like to see their claims backed up with references.
Please include only things that both sides agree on and that are not under dispute, but which will help outsiders understand the debate.
User:REX's postiton: The Encarta and UNESCO Reports refer to Arvanitic as Arvanitika Albanian and the Helsinki report says that most linguists call this language Albanian. So obviously the language is still classed as a form of Albanian. The UNESCO Report also calls Arvanitic a diaspora dialect of Albanian. I think that it is clear now that Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:NPOV and especially Wikipedia:No original research (this one requires us to use only sources, regardless of what we can demonstrate on our own) instruct us to say that Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian. But, because I am a nice guy, I will only insist on saying that Arvanitic is a variety of Albanian, because by calling Arvanitic a dialect, that means that we are asking for trouble as the entire far-right Greek extremist establishment will challenge this. Variety is a much less provocative word that dialect. REX 16:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
This is written by User:REX: We want to call Arvanitic a separate language from Albanian because we have a strong suspicion that they want us to. We don't care that REX's sources say otherwise. We'll just say that they are wrong because they didn't take into account the feelings of some Arvanites (we are violating Wikipedia plicy Wikipedia:No original research). We were hoping that REX's sources say that we are justified in calling Arvanitic a separate language from Albanian. Instead they say that we have cocked it up. So now we are going to pretend that these reports don't exist. (change this if you like, this is just what I believe that you are thinking).
Fill in the parts between the vertical lines. Do not start revert/edit wars. There should be no need: If something is not under dispute, put it in the first subsection; if something is under dispute, write up each party's position in their own subsection. Pick appropriate section titles, and use further subdivisions if necessary. --MarkSweep✍ 13:32, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Reading the RfAr that was just filed, if the issue is simply one of "language" vs. "dialect" then the best example of a compromise I've seen so far is the set of articles on the Chinese languages/dialects, for example Mandarin (linguistics). Note how the page title deviates from the standard conventions (e.g. French language, not French (linguistics)). This is deliberate, in order to simply avoid the issue of having to define Mandarin as a dialect of Chinese or as a Chinese language. This is an example of an issue that is unresolved in reality and that we cannot expect Wikipedia to resolve. If that is indeed the issue here as well, it's best to describe the situation in neutral terms ("linguistic variant" or "variety"), and then simply state that there is a debate and describe what it is about. Again, we do not need to settle real-world debates here. Our task is to take one step back and describe them in neutral terms. --MarkSweep✍ 13:50, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
If I'm not wrong, REX believes that Arvanitic is a language but wants to use a different term and not the term language (for example variety). Please check Talk:Arvanitic language and then take a look at this talk page. I've just tried to read them again now and I can't understand why we should make all this fuss, and where exactly is the disagreement. MATIA 15:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
My saying that Arvanitic is a language but to refer to it as a variety is to compromise with you. UNESCO refers to Arvanitic as a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian. I could easily insist that we use that. It wouldn't be too hard given that you have no evidence whatsoever to support your claims that Arvanitic is a language. Take it thie way. The offer is withdrawn. I insist that we use UNESCO's phrasing until you can come up with some proof to give your statements some credibility. REX 15:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Now lets see, Ethnologue and UNESCO both call this language Arvanitika Albanian. I mean they are credible sources and according to Wikipedia policy we should implement them. Shall we move the page Arvanitic language (which is clearly wrong, I apologise for moving it there) to Arvanitika Albanian? I also believe that we could add the links to the sources: UNESCO and Ethnologue in order to really bring everything out into the open. I mean who should we believe UNESCO and Ethnologue or MATIA and Theathenae? I think that UNESCO and Ethnologue should be believed beacuse as MarkSweep✍ says everything should be neutral, unlike MATIA's and Theathenae's POV (see NPOV). REX 15:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
This is what the System requires. REX 15:47, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Fortunately REX anyone can read what I wrote here and in Talk:Arvanitic language, and verify if and how I cited Ethnologue. I must tell you again that I dislike it when you put words in my mouth and when you distort what I write. Yet again everyone can read what each of us wrote. I'm sorry for the way you are handling it with personal attacks. And I'm sorry that you don't show respect to Arvanites' history and language. If you do have Arvanitic background, I encourage you, again, to ask your relatives about those issues, as I have asked my Arvanites friends. MATIA 15:56, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh MATIA MATIA MATIA, the fact that you cited Ethnologue is absolutely worthless. Ethnologue refers to every dialect as a language. It even refers to Mandarin Chinese as a language and Cantonese Chinese as a separate language. While we know that the Chinese government officially recognises both these languages as dialects of one language. The Chinese language What I like about Ethnologue is that is calls what we call Arvanitic Arvanitika Albanian. How do you explain that? Why can't you accept the facts? Are you expecting us to accept that UNESCO, Ethnologue and Encarta are wrong and you are right? REX 16:46, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The present Albanian language is Tosk. The phrase Arvanitic shares a common origin with Tosk is correct. Tosk and Arvanitic developped seperately for the last 5 or 8 centuries. As a result modern Tosk and Arvanitic have some differences, yet both languages share a common origin. MATIA 12:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC) That's how I've explained it 3 days ago. Why do you keep arguing? MATIA 17:11, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Not according to UNESCO and Ethnologue. Who do we believe? Them or you? REX 17:47, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, why do you change the subject by falsly claiming that I make personal attacks and that I don't care for the Arvanites' history and language? You cannot prove your statement that Arvanitic is a separate language from Albanian. That is why? I have read the entire talk pages Talk:Arvanites and Talk:Arvanitic language and I find no reason whatsoever not to call Arvanitic a dialect of Albanian. I have found many reasons to call it a dialect of Albanian. As UNESCO's Report goes Arvanitic (or Arvanitika Albanian to use the dialect's proper name) is a dialect of Tosk Albanian. Nothing that you say can rebuff this. I am willing to not push to make the POV name for the article Arvanitic language use the more NPOV name Arvanitika Albanian, which can be done I remind you as Ethnologue and UNESCO refer to it this way while there are no credible sources to support its current name, but I INSIST on not distorting the facts. Credible sources (UNESCO) refer to Arvanitic as a dialect of Albanian. That is why WP shall follow suit and say Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk Albanian. See variety, not dialect. That is for your benefit. That in conjunction with the fact that I am not pushing to call Arvanitic Arvanitika Albanian (which CAN be done I remind you) proves that I am not all bad (from your point of view at least). REX 17:46, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me quote what you said unlike MATIA's and Theathenae's POV. Does it look personal to you? Should I cite more of your quotes? Have I cautioned you not to jump to conclusions and read carefully? And have I told you to be careful when you mention my name? MATIA 18:25, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
You are not proving my arguments to be wrong this way? That is because you can't. Anyway, as a sign of good will I now declare myself to be as open as a book. You can ask me any question and I shall answer it truthfully providing that it is relevant to the subjects that we are discussing (put questions next to a star *). This is how I differ from MATIA and Theathenae who refuse answer my above question Who should we believe: Ethnologue and UNESCO or you? REX 19:04, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA and Theathenae are obviously promoting far-right Greek extremism. Why else would they be trying to impose a statement that contradicts UNESCO, Encarta and Ethnologue: that Arvanitic is a language, not a dialect of Tosk Albanian. UNESCO clearly states that Arvanitic is a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian, but they are choosing to reject this phrasing and use a rather novel phrase directly contradicting that for the single and only purpose that their agenda to de-emphasise the links that ethnic minorities in Greece have with other states doesn't allow that.
MATIA and Theathenae may cite the following sources which I have proven to be shams:
We know now that MATIA and Theathenae have no sources to support their arguments they are just asking us to accept their word over that of UNESCO. Their entire Greek extremist theory collapses and becomes a sham. The only true and NPOV way to phrase it is to use the way that UNESCO uses, Arvanitic is a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian.
MATIA and/or Theathenae will probably claim that I am putting words into their mouths. Here is some evidence:
Obviously certain genaralisations have been made eg Theathenae does not mention ethnologue but this is a list of their collective arguments and I have demonstrated that their so-called sources are just jokes. They have no real basis to their arguments and are trying to promote something which seems sucpiciously like Greek extremism. That seems to be the way their mind seems to be moving. Why else would the reject UNESCO's statement in favor of a totally unjustifiable one of their own (Wikipedia:No original research). Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability however dictate that only data with sources can be used. Sadly their wording CANNOT be used and if they try to enforce it without credible sources (Wikipedia:Verifiability) they will be guilty of Vandalism and that will be dealt with under Wikipedia's diciplinary procedures. I therefore urge them with all the sincerety at my command to drop this ridiclulous argument of theirs and stop wasting everybody's time. I hope that they will cooperate. REX 22:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Folks, please try to keep the discussion productive. In fact, I don't think additional debate will get you out of the current stalemate. Repeating myself: it is not our collective job to determine which POV is the "correct" one. This is not about who is "right" and who is "wrong". All relevant points of view should be discussed fairly and neutrally, but Wikipedia cannot and need not endorse any particular POV. I think the best way forward would be for you guys to make an inventory of the various points of view: please describe everyone's position in the "Dispute resolution" section above in a neutral, impartial fashion without making any value judgements, threats, snide remarks, etc. The faster you work this out, the sooner you can get back to editing the article itself. Thanks, --MarkSweep✍ 08:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. I wouldn't bet my last penny that MATIA and Theathenae have the guts to answer my statement above or to defend their position. I just proved their arguments to be totally baseless and factually inaccurate. MATIA will no doubt start complaining like he/she did on MarkSweep's talk page but he/she cannot defend what he/she wnats to say. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk. If they were to provide references for their proposals even thet would be acceptable, but they don't, they just axpect us to accept their word for it. Now I believe that MATIA will resort to the old gambit don't mention my name to avoid answering the question and to cause the circles that we have being going around to continue. REX 08:47, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA keeps saying check Talk:Arvanitic_language#just_the_facts (from MarkSweep's Talk page). There is no evidence there whatsoever to suggest that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. It just says that Arvanitic speakers and Gheg speckers can't understand each other. This is MATIA's tactic: to imply that he/she has evidence while in reality he/she doesn't. I ask now openly: prove to me here and now why we can't use UNESCO's phrasing? Are they wrong and you are right? This is just MATIA's POV. MATIA's deliberate violation of Wikipedia policy. This statement of mine stands until MATIA proves to us that the edits he/she proposes to make to the article are true. I say that they are just a sham! REX 10:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of drafting a fresh proposal in the interests of good faith and I sincerely hope that the disputing parties will take a few minutes to consider it and if they wish me to drop this proposal or make amendments I will require conclusive evidence why.
My objections are in reference to the demographics section. I am proposing to replace what is said with the following:
Arvanites are predominantly Greek Orthodox in religious adherence. Their language, Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk Albanian and has been heavily influenced by Greek over the course of the past five centuries. The language is in decline, partly due to emigration from Arvanitic-speaking villages to the Greek-speaking cities and partly due to its non-recognition by the Greek state: it has no legal status and is not taught in public schools.
Like the rest of the Greek population, Arvanites have been emigrating from their villages to the cities and especially to the capital Athens, which, incidentally, was populated by many Arvanites in the early 1800s, before becoming the Greek state's capital.
What is said above is entirely NPOV. It aknowledges the proven by Ethnologue, UNESCO and Encarta fact but still grants a slight concession to MATIA and Theathenae by referring to Arvanitic as a language (this is allowed because Ethnologue refers to all languages and dialects as languages). Other NPOV proposals are welcome but it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that what is said is endorsed by the scientific estblishment (like mine above). I now urge MATIA and Theathenae with all the earnestness at my command to consider this proposal carefully and to propose amendements or even to reject it only in the case that they have found a reasonable source saying what they want to say. If you don't have respectable sources and proceed in implementing your POV onto the article you will have violated Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research REX 11:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
a) Check this proposal
b) compare diff 1 and diff 2 with fresh proposal.
c) I can't see Encarta, needs subscription.
d) Unesco's red book external link.
section title: Arvanitika Albanian
1: nothing
2: Geographical ... Greece: ... mainly in Attica
3: Relationships: a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian / Albanian / Indo-European
4: language: SERIOUSLY ENDANGERED
4 a) very few children learn the language...
4 b) nothing
4 c) nothing
4 d) ... indicate 50,000 to 140,000 speakers, but ... is probably confined to a much smaller number ...
4 e) degree of speakers' competence: all idiolects are heavily influenced by Greek
Unesco's Sources:
(i) information (about the language): nothing
(ii) published and unpublished material (of the language): little
(iii) competent scholar(s) and institution(s): nothing
Remarks: old immigrant communities surrounded by Greek speaking areas
Compiler: Tapani Salminen, Helsinki, 31 Dec 1993
I'll provide you with sources later, but since Mr Tapani Salminen uses at least three times the term language and once the term dialect, you can consider this as my first source. We must have in our minds that his research on Arvanitika language is very poor (see nothing, or compare with reports for other languages on the official site).
COPYRIGHT: unesco's red book is copyrighted by mr Tapani Salminen, and can be used only for personal use. I've copied it partially (compare dots with external link) here, so we can read it, and after we discuss it and agree with our interpretations of unesco's red book, I could erase these data from my comment. Probably the way I wrote it, with the usage of dots, is on the edge of fair-use (I didn't copy the whole red book, just a small segment, I am mentioning the source and the copyright holder, so I believe it's a reference and not a copy-vio).
MATIA 23:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I suggest that you read the article language. It defines language as: a system of finite arbitrary symbols combined according to rules of grammar for the purpose of communication. Individual languages use sounds, gestures and other symbols to represent objects, concepts, emotions, ideas, and thoughts. Therefore any dialect can be called a language (ie form of speech) whereas you want to define Arvanitic as a separate language from Albanian altogether. That is why it calls Pontic Greek a diaspora dialect of Attic Greek but also refers to it as a language. If we do not make it perfectly clear in the article that the Arvanitic language is classed as a diaspora dialect of Albanian (a true fact) we will be supressing the truth. I don't understand. Are you rejecting my proposal? Because I also refer to Arvanitic as a language there. REX 08:24, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
REX, I had accepted the phrase Arvanitic is an Indo-European language sharing a common origin with the Albanian Tosk dialect, I find the phrases Their language, Arvanitic has developed separately from Tosk Albanian and has been heavily influenced by Greek over the course of the past five centuries, to the extent that it is today considered a separate language by speakers and linguists alike. neutral and more explanatory, and I would suggest an addition like Arvanitika language belongs to the same language family as Albanian Tosk. You have been arguing very intensely the last days that Arvanitic is a dialect not a language. And today you say it is a language and want to mention it as diaspora. Check your fresh proposal and you'll see no mention of diaspora. Tell me please, are Arvanitika a language or a dialect? And please share your thoughts about my comments on UNESCO's red book. MATIA 08:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I am not mentioning it as a diaspora dialect for YOUR benefit (if you like we can mention it that way). The UNESCO report clearly says that this language is a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian, not a separate language. You are distorting the facts. Arvanitic is not considered a separate language by speakers and linguists alike. This phrase is just POV. There are no sources to suggest any such thing.
I ask you now a simple question: Is Arvanitic a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian? If you say NO, you are contradicting UNESCO without sources (see Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability), if you say yes, this whole discussion shouldn't be happening because we are agreeing anyway. Also, ARE YOU ACCEPTING MY PROPOSAL OF REJECTING IT? Note that if you are rejecting it I will need sources because Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability require it and I would like to know that you are not doing it just for the sake of being provocative. REX 09:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
REX please press the STOP on your tape recorder and answer my questions. If you read my comment you'll also see my suggestion. I also have some more questions, but I'm waiting for your answers. MATIA 09:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
a) What about it?
b) What am I looking for?
c) Subscribe then
d) (It is calling the language Arvanitika ALBANIAN. I guess that this proves that itis views as a separate language by speakers and linguists alike)
d 3) (I guess this means that it is viewed a a separate language by speakers and linguists alike)
4 e) (who denied that it is heavily influenced by Greek. It is even in my proposal above)
Comment for Mr Tapani Salminen:
(by language he means a form of speech. The UNESCO and Ethnologue rports refer to ALL dialects this way. Check and see.)
I have commented on your points above. Can you answer my question now: ARE YOU ACCEPTING MY PROPOSAL OF REJECTING IT? Note that if you are rejecting it I will need sources because Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability require it and I would like to know that you are not doing it just for the sake of being provocative. REX 09:32, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
REX first of all, the way you invaded my comment didn't make it clear who wrote what. I had letters and numbers so you could put your answers like the way I moved them above your signature. In two words red book is poor on Arvanitika. Here on WP we already have more sources than UNESCO's red book (see nothing in his report). MATIA 09:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
This makes no differece whatsoever. Other sources have also assisted us in writing the article such as Ethnologue and the Helsinki Report. Can you answer my question now: ARE YOU ACCEPTING MY PROPOSAL OF REJECTING IT? Note that if you are rejecting it I will need sources because Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability require it and I would like to know that you are not doing it just for the sake of being provocative. Also, if you are rejecting it, please explain it in a few paragraphs begining in something like: I reject REX's proposal beacuse ... REX 09:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
REX if you don't have manners don't make it my problem: STOP YELLING. Read WP:COOL, WP:CIV and then read what I wrote above, understand it, think about it, and answer. I'm not going to repeat myself. Let's start with discussing UNESCO's red book, shall we? MATIA 10:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I don't get your point above. I expect you to tell me if you accept or reject my proposal, unless of course there are some questions that you would like to ask. In those circumstances I will only be too happy to answer them, but the questions have to be comprehendable. You can't say something like why: do you say thet I don't have sources? I do have sources, check Talk:Arvanitic language (this is just a fictional example). It would have to be drawing my attention to the specific points that you are raising. So in any questions you may have, ask the question and quote anything relevant instead of saying look what I wrote above. If you do in the end reject my proposal, please explain it in a few paragraphs begining in something like: I reject REX's proposal beacuse .... So, having said that, let's discuss the Red book. (Also, don't you dicipline me again, when Theathenae behaves in that way you don't diciplice him. Is that because he is supporting your arguments. Double standards?) REX 10:39, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I've never disciplined you. You attacked me repeatedly and while most of the time I try to ignore it, sometimes it's hard to put up with. If anyone else, including Theathenae, attacked me, I'll correspond accordingly.
I told you my thoughts about the red book. When you are ready, you may share with me your thoughts about it. I'm trying, sometimes very hard, to end this dispute, and I'm interested in mutual understanding. MATIA 11:07, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I am assuming that you are suggesting that the Red Book's report on Arvanitika Albanian is questionable because the author does not have many sources. All he has is published and unpublished material (of the language): little. I believe that he compiled the report based on the little published material he could find. What is important here is that we can rest assured that even that little information he could find about the language was vetted very carefully because he knew that every time there was a dispute over the status of the language, the researchers would go straight to his report and his report would be challenged. I also believe that you should note that I am not insisting on calling Arvanitic a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian (something that we would be justified in doing according to WP policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability), but calling it a variety of Tosk Albanian. Variety (linguistics) has a good ring to it: we are not using the very strong word dialect but we are neither classing it as a langusge in its own right (this is not endorsed by any group of linguists that we can find references from). Even Ethnologue refers to what we call Arvanitic as Arvanitika Albanian. (I'll suspend Encarta for now because you haven't subscribed. You can if you like, the first two months are free). I mean, they both can't be wrong. We can't say that Arvanitic is a language in its own right because it would be a violation of WP policy (read Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability please). My proposal above has it in the most truly suttle way possible (the links with Albanian are not overly emphasised, nor are they severed altogether). What is said is true (accoring to my sources). I can't find anything to suggest that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. REX 11:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm! Silence is Golden! REX 15:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I can't say if this is offending or just a joke. What does the phrase Instead they say that we have cocked it up. mean? MATIA 17:05, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
It is just a joke (I am stating the obvious now) which implies the way I see everything. The phrase above means: made a mess of everything. REX 17:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, not that I wish to appear impatient or anything, but have you found anything at all which suggests that Arvanitic is a separate language from Tosk Albanian? I mean we have all been holding our breath over the past few days waiting for you to prove that my sources (UNESCO, Ethnologue and Encarta) are wrong in calling Arvanitic a dialect/variety of Tosk Albanian. If you cannot find anything, never mind. Just don't keep us waiting for nothing. Let's implement my proposal for now because that is what Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability) requires. REX 19:23, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Well O Sarcastic One, I insist that we implement my proposal until you do provide us with sources because that is what Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability) requires. REX 20:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Of course. MATIA's name is too holy to be played with but to even be mentioned. It would be like violating Commandment number 2. REX 22:55, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Here we go again. MATIA diciplining us and looking down on us from on high. REX 08:47, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
No Chronographe, Us refers to the oppressed proletariat. REX 11:48, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I think that you should consider accepting my proposal again as I doubt you ever find any sources indicating that Arvanitic (or to use the name that the UN uses Arvanitika Albanian, something that you would prefer to ignore) is a separate language from Tosk Albanian. REX 13:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The way you slander my name in user talk pages and article talk pages is unacceptable (everyone can verify it by checking your contributions). Every time I tell you that I find this behaviour offending, your responce is more calumnies. You understand that your lack of manners irritates me and you continue to do so, with what purpose? What have you got on your mind? As for the sources, I've spent my free time the last days going to libraries and taking notes relevant to Arvanites and Arvanitika language. I've told you numerous times before that I need time, time to sort all that information. And what's your responce? More calumnies on many talk pages. I don't have words to describe your lack of manners. MATIA 13:48, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I am afraid your "holier than thou" hypocritical attitude will not help you here. I also feel obligated to tell you that there is no point in your researching in the library. According to Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Verifiability your sources must be in English. Also, they should be reliable sources, this means that books which may transmit the author's POV should be avoided (suggestion from personal experience: avoid books published by Γέρου Yéru they are utterly POV, they claim that the Arvanites are descendants of the Pelasgians who lived in the are which is now Greece them moved the to the area which is now Albania, transmitted their language to the ancestors of the Albanians then returned to Greece during the Middle Ages). I myself have found references to the Arvanites in my local library: mostly calling Arvanitic a dialect of Albanian (check Encyclopaedias Britannica, Webster and Hutchinson). Why do you not accept what UNESCO says: Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk Albanian? It is true isn't it? I know it is not what you would like the truth to be because it conflicts with your perception of the Arvanites (ie your POV). And MATIA, for the last time, you do not have the authority to discipline me. Your pretending to be offended is just one of your tactics. Well MATIA, I have news for you. We have all got used to your tactics: saying that you are looking for sources because you say that you don't believe what UNESCO says and when we ask you how the search is going you say that you are offended. When you make fun of me I don't say that I am offended. As far as I am concerned, UNESCO is the authority on these subjects and no tricks on your part will ever change the fact that they call Arvanitic a dialect of Tosk. Even if you were to find some obscure book which calls Arvanitic a separate language from Tosk Albanian it is highly unlikely that they are likely to be right an UNESCO and the most respected encyclopaedias wrong. REX 17:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
If you can't help calling names, go to a mirror. You are the only hypocrite around here. You don't know my sources, and I'm not gonna claim that Arvanites came from outer space so please, try to control yourself despite your immaturity. I never disciplined you, but even though I don't really like the idea, I'll probably have you reported for all those personal attacks, that you did here and in every user talk page or article talk page. Please stop doing it, it 'll be boring to report your immature behaviour. MATIA 18:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
My sources will be verifiable, and their content is about the history of Arvanites and the language Arvanitika. Arvanites aren't a controversial topic and when I type and edit the sources I 've found, I'll publish them here. The phrase Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is inaccurate, please do wait. MATIA 18:57, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The prolonged silence, I suspect, indicates approval of my proposal above. Therefore, I shall be requsting that the page be unprotected and my proposal above being implemented, given that there is no evidence to suggest that anything in that proposal is false. REX 15:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
No MATIA, you will accept my proposal above until you provide references. Wikipedia policy requires this. You cannot put POV on an article when the current sources indicate that the NPOV is the exact opposite. REX 19:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but you can't prove that it is untrue. All evidence suggests that Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk. What should we do? Accept your word for it lest I disobey the long awaited sources which may never come. We shall make the appropriate edits so that the articles conforms to WP policy and the sources we already have. What should we do. Make the article say the opposite because some sources we haven't found yet require this. When the sources you promised are produced then we may be able to say what you want, but to say it now would be a violation of WP policy. Also, you are not complaining about me because you have no evidence. When I asked you to produce some you gave me the silent treatment, therefore given that you can't prove these calamities of which you speak exist then I have no reason to believe that they exist. REX 19:44, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have commented your sources above on this talk page. I'm not going to repeat it, anyone interested can either wait for my sources, or check what I've written before. What you did (taking the edit-war to other articles) is a very small part of the evidence. If you wish to misinterpret my non-action or repeat the personal attacks, it's your call. I do wish, though, that you'll choose a new, different, way of approach. MATIA 20:00, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I shall always observe WP policy and UNESCO calls Arvanitic a dialect of Albanian. Case closed. This shall be entered on the article untill you prove otherwise. I do wish you would observe WP policy. I don't even know why you are so worried. I mean íf you do find proper sources then it may be changed. REX 20:12, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Two weeks should be enough. No sense in keeping this protected forever. --Tony SidawayTalk 21:55, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Why does User:Theathnae feel that he can remove accurate facts from an article for the only reason that he doesn't happen to agree with them. These facts are proven, they are quoted by UNESCO. They cannot be wrong and what Theathenae says is right. The only way I will even consider the possibility that his edits are right is if he provides sources. No sources, no POV. REX 10:56, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
1) Unesco Red book: We have examined before the unesco report. In one phrase: Mr Tapani Salminen uses at least three times the term language and once the term dialect.
2) helsinki watch: This report should be cross-checked with other sources because it has some pov sections. But the helsinki report never refers to Arvanitika as a dialect. Helsinki report calls the Arvanitika language as arvanitic language and it also says that Arvanitika language has three dialects.
3) Ethnologue: Ethnologue also reffers to Arvanitika as a language.
I'd suggest you read your sources before citing them. MATIA 11:19, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
REX, I do believe that you can do better than that. Read your sources. MATIA 12:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm really sorry, but you also removed accurate information I've added today in this article. I would suggest you cool off and revert your changes. MATIA 12:37, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been doing some reading on this subject after REX's e-mail where he was pleading for help. In my view, MATIA and Theathenae are vandalising the articles. It is perfectly clear that this language is a dialect of Tosk and no word games on their part will change that fact. Actually I am puzzled over what REX said. If UNESCO and Ethnologue use the name Arvanitika Albanian as the primary name for this language, then why isn't it being used in place of this somewhat artificial name Arvanitic language? If you read Ethnologue you will see that its list of alternative names is often challenged. In my opinion again, I believe that the name at the heading (Arvanitika Albanian) is the only appropriate name, which incidentally happens to be the name used by the UNESCO report. I don't know what REX, MATIA and Theathenae think that they are doing. You cannot pick and choose what parts of sources to use and which parts to ignore at your discretion. Wikipedia works based on neutrality (see Wikipedia:NPOV) and given that our primary sources call this language Arvanitika Albanian, then why isn't that name used? This other name lacks Wikipedia:Verifiability as Ethnologue's alternative name lists are often challenged, therefore the name Arvanitika Albanian is obviously the NPOV name. If you read Wikipedia:No original research you will find that Wikipedia policy requires that you unconditionally accept what it verified in reliable sources providing that it is relevant. If you lot think that you can pick and choose which policies to accept and which parts of which sources to use based on your personal whims, then Wikipedia will become a hopelessly lame encyclopaedia. I sincerely hope that the three of you will mend your ways and behave like responsible adults. GrandfatherJoe 13:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I'm just making this comment to remind participants that we have Official policies of Civility and No personal attacks. I've taken the liberty of editing the above exchange to remove the worst departures from those policies.
Quite often when people have a disagreement the main thing that stops them seeking consensus is that they have a lot of emotional investment in their position. Denigrating one's opponent causes entrenchment of positions and works against consensus. Please don't do that. If you do so, for whatever reason, you are departing from Wikipedia policy. --Tony SidawayTalk 14:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Because no one here seems to be interested in any progress or have any good-faith whatsoever, obviously I shall have to start it (as usual, all the Greeks do is revert and then not be able to explain why):
(IF I've said something offending and untruthful above, don't take offence, it is not my intention, I just had to let my grievances out) REX 19:53, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
...Either way the first thing anyone should do is read the relevant talk pages. You can start here or here or maybe you want to read the root of all these edit wars "Also, could you tell me if the Arvanite fulfil the criteria here (a wiki-link to Albanians#Ethnic_Albanians) REX 15:05, 26 July 2005 (UTC)". +MATIA ☎ 21:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC) (originaly posted 16:55, 27 September 2005 (UTC)).
MATIA is obviously unwilling to cooperate. This is obviously because he has no sources to support his arguments. He is a troll. I try to resolve this dispute, I ask for sources. And what do I get? Nothing! Just sarcastic wise cracks. Well no one can say that I didn't try. It is MATIA who keeps on disrupting Wikipedia. MATIA, you can either provide sources, or walk away. REX 21:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, you see you have never called me a troll. Oops, would you look at that. You know what I am thinking now? Ουαί υμίν Γραμματείς καί Φαρισαίοι υποκριταί. Truthful words, and still relevant today. Lord, you do indeed work in mysterious ways! REX 22:24, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
And again Ladies and Gentlemen, MATIA is caught lying. I believe that this affirms that old saying; we all earn the names by which we are known. REX 22:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA has been active [6] since I made the post above [7], but he is giving me the silent treatment. Maybe he is afraid to answer me above. Maybe it is because he has no sources. Gee, I oughta study psychology. REX 21:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Coo, I guess that the fact that the Arvanites had a Greek PM means that their language is not a variety of Tosk. Belgium had a Flemish PM, that doesn't mean that his language wasn't a form of Dutch. PS when do we actually get to see these sources of yours, or are they to holy to be seen by mere mortals such as me? I am hearing too many words and not enough facts (you do know the meaning of the word, don't you?)REX 22:10, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Not very helpful, we know that Arvanitic is a language, what else could it be? A peanut? They don't say that it is a separate language from Tosk though; au contraire, UNESCO calls Arvanitic a diaspora dialect of Tosk. You still haven't read that yet? You think that it's all lies? UNESCO is known for lying, isn't it? Whereas you always tell the truth. lol! REX 22:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Having checked your link about lying also labeled as truth I can see that you called me a troll before. +MATIA ☎ 23:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Of course you don't Theathenae, because unlike you two I have legitimate sources. UNESCO clearly says that Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk. You on the other hand have circular sources which involve word games and straw man arguments. You still can't explain why UNESCO calls Arvanitic a dialect of Tosk, can you? REX 17:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC) Counter-arguments to what exactly, to nothing? Your arguments are word games and straw man arguments. I'll say it again UNESCO calls Arvanitic a dialect of Tosk. Case closed! REX 13:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
This is just another try of the Greek nationalists to hide that minorities live in Greece and they have no basic human rights, a thing that is going on for centuries. I understand if this was happening in the 16th century, but now is 21st century.
Those people there have no Greek origin and most of them see themselves as of Albanian origin.
Same happens with all national minorities that live in Greece (Albanians, Macedonians, Turkish, Roma etc.). They have no basic human rights in Greece. Just few years ago they were even inprisoned if they spoke their mother tongues.
I just can not understand how can the world ignore this. Every single human rights organization is criticising Greece, but the impotent politicians do not do anything about it. What a fucked up world we are living in.
Their language is chatecorised as variation of Albanian by UNESCO, but the Greeks still claim it is not. How can someone be so blinded from nationalism? Macedonian 00:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
UNESCO calls Arvanitic a dialect of Tosk Albanian. REX 10:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Counter-arguments to what exactly, to nothing? Your arguments are word games and straw man arguments. I'll say it again UNESCO calls Arvanitic a dialect of Tosk. It sais it plainly and clearly. Case closed! REX 13:05, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Whereas your proposal is more reasonable. Don't make me laugh! Britannica, UNESCO, Ethnologue ALL call this language a dialect of Tosk or a dialect of Albanian. What a pity your Magnificence has to be burdened by silly rules such as Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. <shout>It is the truth even if you dont like it!</shout> REX 13:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm getting the feeling that you Greeks make problems from everything: Arvanites, Cyprus, Macedonia... That is a very bad characteristic of yours. --Bomac 13:52, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I am noone's sockpuppet. Say that for yourself. Also, I am not Sterbinski's pupil.
However, I think that you Greeks create pittyful and unnecessary problems by yourself. And, I can assure you that attacking and insulting is not the way to solve them. Regards. Bomac 15:24, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
So I guessed right? He is a teacher? Anyway, all these are irrelevant to this wiki. +MATIA ☎ 15:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The gentleman I mentioned died before the first Nazi was ever born. You do seem interested in the Nazi's though Theathenae, why? REX 16:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I can see from the last talks how much they are frustrated, indeed. Bomac 20:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
MATIA has removed a fact which can be found in the Helsinki Report and when asked why he did so he said that [8] that report is biased. What is that? MATIA possesses the authority to reject evidence as biased and force us to accept his POV instead. Well MATIA, wake up; it doesn't work like that, Wikipedia:No original research. It doesn't matter what your Magnificence thinks; what matters is what can be proven and only that can be used. It seems that MATIA has the right to flout these rules but then has the cheek to tell me to observe the NPA. What hypocrisy! Well, MATIA you will have to observe Wikipedia policy as well. You can't violate it when you please and then call us when we violate it. But obviously MATIA seems to think that he is above the rules and His Most Serene Highness is not obliged to do so like lesser mortals such as myself. Theathenae on the other hand doesn't even pretend that he is observing Wikipedia policy. All he will ever do is edit war his only defence being that the Arvanites don't like been called Albanians. That is not true, the Arvanites of Epirus do, something which Theathenae manages to ignore. All this behaviour of theirs is very disturbing and I am appalled at their double standards. You see, according to them the Macedonians and the Arvanites of Epirus don't have the right to call themselves whatever they please, but the rest of the Arvanites do. REX 08:59, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
ARVANITES HAVE NO RIGHTS! (according to REX)
MATIA HAS NO RIGHTS - not even the right to defend himself (see here)
+MATIA ☎ 09:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that you all should know that User:Theathenae and MATIA seem to have double standards. They deniy the Macedonians and the Arvanites of North-West Greece the right to call themselves whatever they please, but they seem to display such sensitivity when it comes to what to call the Arvanites of Attica. I wouldn't take them too seriously as they are obviously one of these far-right Greek extremists who would rather see all Greece's minorities sent to Auschwitz than admit that Greece is now a multicultural society with minrities with links to other countries. REX 10:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Arvanitis and Arvanitika, are Arvanitic words. So if Arberor is correct (I don't remember but it may be), the correct phrase would be:
Arvanites (Αρbε̰ρόρ, Arbërór or Arvanites in Arvanitika).
Arvanites, Arvanitika, besha (μπέσα), phara (φάρα) and other are loan words from Arvanitika that are also used in Greek.
Shqiptar is the Albanian word for Albanians.
REX had said in the past that he is Arvanitis, and later that he is an Albanian. Well, he can be whatever he wants, or he can claim that he is whatever he wants. But if he was an Arvanitis he would know how they call themselves, and the same applies for Albanian. Why he claimed to be Arvanitis or Albanian, (or Greek before 3-4 months) I can't say. and I don't care. But forcing names or labels, even if he doesn't know he is wrong, cannot be accepted.
I must also note that he continues to force his personal pov on Arvanites while there's no consensus for his edits.
I do hope he'll understand this and cool off.+MATIA ☎ 14:08, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
In this subsection I'll provide Brian Joseph view on Arvanitika. While REX reminded me of him (I've read his work in the past but I've forgotten about him), he misquoted him and he edited this article while there's no consensus for REX's changes (REX is the only one who agrees with what he does, not even his source Brian Joseph). PS REX must tell us if a) he understands greek and b) he accept sources in greek. The one day he lists his name in translators the other day he says my sources are greek and he can't understand them. Just few days before, he disputed Biris because the book is written in Greek, while Biris is the most referenced source by other scholars on Arvanites. +MATIA ☎ 14:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Sources in Greek cannot be used according to Wikipedia:Verifiability. That is a WP policy by the way. You obviously have never seen one before. Only WP:NPA. How convenient. REX 14:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't help you to claim that you don't understand Greek or claiming that Greek sources cannot be used. If they can't be used why are you a translator from Greek to English? But don't worry. Brian Joseph is not Greek. So if you have a problem with Greeks (see Biris) we'll use BJ's english. +MATIA ☎ 14:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't say that Greek sources cannot be used. Wikipedia policy says that they cannot be used (a fact you choose to ignore). You're all for WP policy aren't you? This conversation should appeal to you :-))))))) REX 15:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources_should_be_in_English, Wikipedia:Translators_available#Greek-to-English. +MATIA ☎ 15:44, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
You should polish your English MATIA, only quotes can be used from foreign sources. Anyway, can you find a more credible source than UNESCO? Not a chance. You'll just have to accept their wording, dispite the fact that your agenda is against that. REX 15:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
BLUFF ALERT! These sources do not support MATIA's explosive claims. He is trying to bluff his way into believing that someone actually believes that Arvanitika Albanian is not a dialect of Albanian, but a separate language altogether. These "sources" say nothing of the kind. What a shame MATIA. Anyway, we'll just have to use what Britannica, UNESCO etc say. NEXT! REX 21:25, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
User_talk:Bomac#a_question, Talk:Arvanites#Hypocrisy.2C_Greek_extremism_and_double_standards, User_talk:Matia.gr#Hmmm and there are probably more scattered around here. +MATIA ☎ 21:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Ethnologue, Britannica, Encarta, UNESCO and the Arvanites of Epirus would appear to disagree with you MATIA. REX 21:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Whereas you can dictate to the Arvanites of Yanina that they MUST feel Greek. REX 22:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
It appears Rexhep's ridiculous request for arbitration against me has backfired dismally. I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for the kid.--Theathenae 10:25, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
This is appalling behavior on all parts. I've blocked REX, Theathenae and matia.gr for three hours as a warning for extreme incivility, personal attacks and edit warring. Please find a way to communicate with one another without making nonsensical and irrelevant accusations. --Tony SidawayTalk 14:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Please, I've just blocked those three and now I find a new editor, Thrakiotis (talk · contribs), and GrandfatherJoe (talk · contribs) continuing this sterile revert warfare. Please, both of you, stop this. It makes you both look just as bad as the three I have blocked, and only fuels the suspicion that you may be sock puppets of the blocked editors. --Tony SidawayTalk 16:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I am getting tired of this! MATIA and Theathenae, I insist that you provide sources which confirm what you are saying or else withdraw. I have proven beyond reasonable doubt that what I say is true and can be used in encyclopaedia articles because other encyclopaedias use it too. According to your absurd theory we could say that American English is a separate language from British English, because the Americans don't identify as English. In the same way, you want to say that Arvanitika Albanian and Tosk Albanian are separate languages because (in this case only some) Arvanites don't identify with the rest of the Albanian community. I have made concessions, not insisted on calling the language Arvanitika Albanian, not insisting on the diaspora dialect bit, I've given an inch, turned the other cheek but I say enough is enough! Stop reverting, prove what you want to say and then and ONLY then will I give way. REX 18:26, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
REX asked me for advice on how to proceed. He hasn't yet taken it, but I am still optimistic. I think it applies to all parties in this dispute, so I tweaked it a little so that it's more general and I present it here.
I do hope all will read this and take it to heart. Haranguing one another hasn't worked. It's time to listen, to show mutual respect, and to stop edit warring. Maybe if you listen more you'll find that you aren't so far apart after all.
In any case there is nothing to be gained by shouting at one another like this. You're all breaking Wikipedia policy, so if this case escalates you all have a lot to lose. --Tony SidawayTalk 23:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
From my contributions: 17:55, 4 October 2005 and then 18:56, 5 October 2005. After I clear my name and prove what you and your friend GrandfatherJoe did, I'm outta here. +MATIA ☎ 08:59, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
All good-faith users are highly encouraged NOT TO EDIT THIS WIKI. There was a previous consensus and a certain user defied repeatedly the facts. At last his mask is dropped, he finaly labeled ALL ARVANITES as ethnic albanians. ALL USERS DO NOT EDIT THIS WIKI until the admins deside what they'll do with the attitude of a certain user his disrespect of facts regarding the history of ARVANITES. +MATIA ☎ 17:05, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Where did that happen, pray do tell? In your dream, maybe? I don't get it. Everything I said can be found on the Helsinki Report. I never used the phrase ethnic Albanians, MATIA. You are lying (as usual). I also think that it's fair to point out that a consensus was never reached, there was always dispute, from the top of the talk page till the bottom. You also say all the facts. Which facts? You haven't provided a single source to support your arguments and you directly contradict the word of such reliable documents such as the cited report. You are a liar, there is no doubt about it. Gee, it's so sad the lengths you will go to try and discredit me. So sad :-))) REX 17:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Thought it might be useful to have input from someone who knows something of linguistics and identifies with neither Greek nor Albanian. I haven't read all of this dispute, so forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said.
There are three contradictory ways of distinguishing 'language' from 'dialect':
Finally, very often the word 'language' is used ambiguously in the sense of 'idiom', without implying either a language-level or dialect-level relationship with another idiom. "The American language" etc.
So my 2 cents are that simply calling something a 'language' or a 'dialect' is not very informative. There often is no simple answer. Rather, if you wish to convey the essence of an idiom to your audience, you need to cover all bases: how is the idiom perceived by its speakers? how is it perceived by outsiders? how readily intelligible is it to related idioms? what kind of recognition does it enjoy? Different readers might be interested in the social aspect, linguistic aspect, or political aspect, and I don't think it should be our job to decide for them which they should consider. kwami 01:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
In other words, Arvanitika is perceived by most of its speakers as the language of the Pelasgians, by some other of its speakers as an Albanian dialect, by the vast majority of influential lingusts (such as the ones who wrote Ethnologue, UNESCO report, Helsinki Report etc) as an Albanian dialect. As for the other aspects, they currently are nil. The language is spoken by a few thousand people who are in their eighties, and in thirty years or so, it will be a dead language or dialect. The Greek government's assimilaion policy (the one mentioned in the Human Rights report) will be complete. The Greek state has succeeded in killing yet another language or dialect, and culture. REX 12:27, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Someone is removing the fact that the Arvanites of North-Wastern Greece call themselves Shqiptar according to the Helsinki Report. I would like them to convince me that that is fair and accurate. REX 18:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I would like you to change this article to the way you would like it. Then I'll review it and comment on the POV parts. If you do not respond to this message I'll take the initiative and make all the changes I think are appropriate. REX 10:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, you know how I want the article to be and why. It is fully explained at my additional statement on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/REX, please read it and comment. I have no idea how you want this article to be or the Macedonian one. All I know it that you object to the current version, that doesn't mean much. I don't even know what we are disgreeing over. REX 12:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I've seen your "evidence", it's no good, It doesn't explain to me whay I am wrong. Check my additional statement and comment. I'll make yet another concession, I won't even ask for sources :-/ Just tell me what you object to and why. You know what I don't like, the supression of the fact that the Arvanites of Epirus call themselves Shqiptar etc. Why don't you want to include that, POV? REX 12:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Let me get this straight. While UNESCO says that Arvanitika is a dialect of Albanian and the Helsinki Report says that the Arvanites of North-Western Greece call themselves Shqiptar, we are not allowed to write it in the article because MATIA disagrees with it. I don't get it. How come MATIA can lay down the law and forbid certain phrases being used in the article simply because he doesn't agree with them. Well MATIA, you'll need a GOOD EXPLANATION before I step aside. I want a GOOD REASON to leave out what these reliable sources say. If you provide one, I may stand aside. Rex(talk) 11:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I've been reading yourBrian Joseph links, and you lied, he calls Arvanitika a dialect, many many times. My personal favorite is this one: Thus Arvanitika is considered a dialect of Albanian (in the broad sense, not a dialect of the gjuha e njesuar, the standard language I referred to) because it is roughly mutually intelligible with other varieties of Albanian. Will you please accept my moderate compromise, so that we can get this thing over with! Rex(talk) 11:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
+MATIA ☎ 12:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Arvanitika has NOT evolved seperatly over the past five centuries. Provide evidence of that! The Helsinki Report indicates a slightly different version of events. I also prompt MATIA to read the Ethnologue statement that 150,000 (2000) people speak Arvanitika. Where are your invisible sources. Why don't we discuss your defarmatory lies about me on the Greek Wikipedia. Why don't you present any counter arguments? The sources say that. Deal with it! My revert was justified. Do you have ANY sources to support all that? If so, bring them. Rex(talk) 13:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
such cases of loss in Arvanitika, some of Trudgill’s claims may be overstated in the light of the full range of Arvanitika dialect diversity, as Hamp has shown.
dialect of Albanian, part of the sub-group of Albanian dialects known as the "Tosk" dielcts (essentially southern Albanian -- the present-day standard Albanian language (so-called gjuha e njesuar 'the unified language') is based on a Tosk dialect).
I believe that it is now perfectly clear that the above, in conjunction with the Helsinki Report and UNESCO and Ethnologue and Encarta and Britannica Arvanitika is a dialect of Albanian regardless if MATIA and Theathenae like it or not.
Also, the Helsinki Report says that the Arvanites of northwestern Greece (Epirus and Western Macedonia) call themselves Shqiptar
Also, Ethnologue says that there are 150,000 speakers of Arvanitika.
Can MATIA and Theathenae explain themselves, they have not provided ANY sources to support their edits, all they do is revert and then not be able to explain why. So much for MATIA, I at one moment in the past had thought better of you, silly mistake of mine, to think that you were neutral. Even if God himself verified what I say above, I bet you wouldn't believe it. GET SOURCES! Rex(talk) 13:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
No counter-arguments, Theathenae? Of course not, you don't have any. This will prove to be MOST useful :-) behold the eagle of Skenderbeu Rex(talk) 14:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Yeah right! I know it's Roman! Rex(talk) 14:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I like it. It's not a sissy flag and another one I know, but do not car to name. Rex(talk) 14:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm, well you started it quote: I find it a rather ugly flag myself.--Theathenae 14:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC). Rex(talk) 14:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I never said you couldn't. I was getting at the fact that you seem to think that you can critisise flags, but I can't. Tut tut! Rex(talk) 14:50, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Skanderbeg was proud of his connection with Byzantium, that's why he adopted the double headed eagle as his emblem in his fight against Ottomans. (quoting WP: "Voltaire thought the Byzantine Empire would have survived had it possessed a leader of his quality", I haven't read that part of Voltaire myself, I've added many other things I've read about Scanderbeg on the related wiki and various links on the buttom)
Brian Joseph clearly states that Arvanitika and Tosk share a common origin, and he also calls it a dialect, variety etc. We could name this common origin as "ancient Arvanitika" or "ancient Albanian". But if you read BJ you'll see that Arvanitika (apart from the greek words) is closer to that "common origin" than modern Albanian. And Arvanites called their language Arvanitika during those last 6 (or howmany they are) centuries.
+MATIA ☎ 15:28, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, that's original research, it's your own conclusion. Brian Joseph doesn't SAY it, it's made up by YOU. Rex(talk) 21:58, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Redirecting me again. Come now MATIA, that thctic is stale by now. I have read that thin many times. NOTHING in there says that Arvanitic is not an Albanian dialect. NOTHING! Therefore my wording complies with Wikipedia policy and you are unjustified in removing it. Is it not true for me to say that Arvanitic belongs to the same language family as Icelandic (Indo European). What do you want? Tell me, I want this thing over with. Rex(talk) 22:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, the status of Arvanitic as a language or a dialect is disputed. Why can't we be neutral and use the form that ALL OTHER languages use in these circumstances X (linguistics), just like Flemish (linguistics), Mandarin (linguistics) etc. Rex(talk) 16:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
If Macedonian language is good then so is Arvanitika language. See also Talk:Arvanites#language_vs._dialect. +MATIA ☎ 17:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Ah yes, but UNESCO, Britannica and Encarta all say that Arvanitic is a dialect and Macedonian a language. WP:V? Also, AAT is the Code for ARVANITIKA ALBANIAN, I suppose Arvanitika Albanian language will do. Rex(talk) 18:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The Albanian chauvinists à la User:REX/User:Rexhep_Bojaxhiu/User:GrandfatherJoe/User:Albanau/User:Tpilkati etc. are at it again. The President of the Hellenic Republic was forced to cancel his trip to Albania yesterday after the failure of the Albanian authorities to guarantee his security against Albanian extremists whose ultimate aim is to annex Çamëria (the Greek region of Epirus) to a Greater Albania.[9] Truly disgusting.--Theathenae 09:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Rex, no, not all linguists would call Arvanitike a dialect. Most linguists are concerned with the grist of a language (the grammar and such), and they would call A a dialect based on mutual intelligibility. However, there is also an entire field of sociolinguistics. There are many many linguists would do not try to reduce a language down to its grammar, as if it were some sterile abstraction that could exist outside the people who speak it. Their conceptions of language are often ethnolinguistic, and many of them might call A. a language. (I say might, because I don't know any linguists who refer to it at all!) As I said above, any responsible linguist would cover both sides of the issue. If Wikipedia tries to present A. as either a dialect or as a separate language, without any clarification, then yes we would indeed look foolish. We need to do both. kwami 20:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In the list "2.3 Famous Arvanites" i've included people who had Arvanitic consciousness (that is they have said that they are Arvanites, have done things for Arvanite people, etc). I don't remember if Kollias, Moraitis and Demetrios Lekkas are Arvanites. I'll remove them and I'll add info about Kollias' book. I'll also remove the phrase "Arvanites have Albanian origins, as language and songs prove". It has been discussed before (here and in ArbCom) and it is analysed in the article. +MATIA ☎ 18:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
My changes can be seen at this diff.
I urge you to accept these changes, as this may sweeten me into accepting the article title Arvanitic language. You cannot have everything - compromise. If you remove them, then I may initiate negotiations to move Arvanitic language somewhere else again. I give you the Arvanitic language name, you give me these minor changes. Rex(talk) 08:34, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I see your point:
I'm glad we're actually discussing instead of screaming :-) Rex(talk) 12:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
There's been rather extensive debate over the use of the name Shqipere & variants, and I assume this is because such a name could be used to claim Albanian identity. However, Arvanitika itself means 'Albanian', so it's kind of a moot point. Besides, conceptions of names change. The name "English" no longer means German, for example, so what does it prove if Arvanitika means Albanian, or if some Arvanitika use the name Shqipere? That could be entirely independent of ethnic identity. (But then it might not be. I have no idea.)
Anyway, the OED has this etymology for 'Albania':
Notice the variants in Ἀρβανητ-. This is the root of Arvenitika. kwami 23:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
There are many related (or almost related) names Arnaut, Arbanitai, Arvanites, Albanitai, it's a big list and I 'll try to write it. If we stick to byzantine sources Arvanites and Albanians are both recorded. If we go back, then it's Ptolemy's Albanopolis and Arbon which seems related to Arbanitai, and Arvanitai. It's a long story and I'm still trying to sort it. +MATIA ☎ 23:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
REX try to let me write it first and then dispute it. +MATIA ☎ 00:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Matia, if an admin blocks Zogu for violating 3RR, s/he will have to block you as well, for you are equally guilty. (Actually, you violated 3RR first.) They cannot block Zogy for vandalism, because Zogu has not been vandalizing the page. You may not agree with Z's edits, but that's a difference of opinion.
Zogu, I would suggest that you engage in discussion on this talk page to justify your edits. (For one thing, it is appropriate to link Arvanites to Arvanitika language, where the dialect/language debate is discussed. Linking to Albanian only might be construed as censorship. Also, you appear to be removing useful information, such as the history of the people and the status of their language. Repeated removal of information, without showing that it is incorrect, will be construed as vandalism and will get you blocked.) When a page is in dispute, as this one is, it is considered polite to discuss your ideas here first, and to try to work out any disagreements before you make changes. At the very least, you should give evidence for your opinions.
If the article as it now stands is the concensus version, then I suggest that everyone who supports it revert Zogu if s/he doesn't justify the changes. However, it would be wise to discuss it here. For example, Zogu says that the Arvanites belong to the Albanian rather than the Greek church. That should be easy to verify one way or the other. If there are repeated, unjustified reverts of consensus, then I or another admin might block the reverter for vandalism. However, that won't happen if both sides violate witiquette. kwami 23:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
+MATIA ☎ 23:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that they are all the same person. One IP is from Australia, one is from Russia and one is from the United States. Unless this person owns a private jet, it's impossible that they are all the same person. IMHO none of these users have been vandalising. See Wikipedia:How to spot vandalism#What vandalism is not. Your don't vandalise messages probably woulden't make them stop as as far as they are probably concerned, they are not vandalising, but adding valid information. I must say, most of the time, I agree with their edits. All these users appear to be newbies (like you wisely pointed out), so you can't really expect them to have grasped the concept of consensus yet. You have been here for months and haven't yet (from your ignoring the consensus at Talk:Arvanitic language). A word of advice, don't oversuse the don't vandalise templates. I know it probably makes you feel important when you do, but if someone is not vandalising, then it is just a personal attack. Also, don't edit war. Edit wars are harmful. Rex(talk) 08:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Kwami can you please explain to me why this wasn't a simple vandalism? I don't get it, please explain it to me. Thanks.
REX did you agree or disagree with Zogu's edits? I've pointed to you what's going on, on your talk page yesterday but you didn't do anything. Can you please clarify your comment. Thanks. +MATIA ☎ 14:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I've changed modern Tosk with Standard Albanian and, those interested could go to the relevant page and see how Arvanitika is categorised by linguists etc. Any comments? +MATIA ☎ 19:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm moving this over so everyone has access to the discussion. kwami 19:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I think that REX and Theathenae have agreed before on the "common origin" and REX continued to disagree with the "evolved seperatedly for 5 centuries" (my conclusions from the talk pages). I think that they have a common origin and linguistically it is (and it 'll be expanded) analysed in Arvanitic language. Do you disagree with any of these? +MATIA ☎ 14:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I have never agreed in saying that Arvanitic and Tosk share a common origin (i have agreed that Arvanitic and modern Tosk (Shqip) share a common origin as per Brian Joseph), nor have I ever agreed in saying that it has evolved seperatly for 500 years. Find proof of that! I know that it is not true, read the Helsinki Report. Rex(talk) 15:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Kwami could you help us? +MATIA ☎ 15:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
You are right Kwami, check this pdf. Look at the charts, it's clear that Arvanitic is a variant of Tosk and derives from Tosk. Therefore, saying that Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is accurate. Rex(talk) 19:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
That may be so, however, no Arvanitic language exists. However, UNESCO, Britannica and the University of Ohio above, all speak of an Albanian dialect. No evidence exists that it is (or can be) a language. Quite simply, there are no sources that call it a language, so the article title being Arvanitic language, isn't that POV? I think it is, calling what UNESCO calls a dialect a language in its own right. That's POV at it's worst. Rex(talk) 20:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Actually, opinion is divided, even amongst Arvanites. In sourthern Greece, they say that they have nothing to do with the Albanians, whereas in northwestern Greece they call themselves Albanians and their language Albanian (the call themselves Arvanites in Greek though, see the infamous helsinki report). Rex(talk) 21:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Alvanos (Αλβανός) is Greek for Albanian. Rex(talk) 22:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
It's the other way around. Some scholars, who have not studied specifically Arvanites, may call Arvanites as Albanians. The word ethnic in that copy-paste from Bri. is the possible pov. Perhaps we could say Albanians (without the ethnic) in the Albanian language article, and have a wikilink there to Arvanites (who are the majority of people who spoke a language that was close to Albanian and lived in Greece etc, and are the settlers etc). As for the copyvio I still believe that copy-pasting a phrase from a commercial encyclopedia should be avoided, and we should check this (if the phrase hasn't changed) with a wikipedia expert on copyrights. +MATIA ☎ 22:38, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
As REX said an Albanian in Greek language is an Alvanos. In an english book about Scanderbeg for example you'll might see Arnauts, Albanians, Arvanites etc grouped in one term "Albanians". In another english book about the 1821 revolution you'll might see Arvanites, Maniots, etc grouped in one term "Greeks". It's like seeing earth people from the Mars and then zooming into the Arvanites, if you don't zoom on them you'll might see them as... Europeans :)
The first paragraph of that Helsinki report (which I'm trying to crosscheck with various books) points out, that they have a very big problem (they loathe etc) if you call them Albanians (and as I've noted somewhere in the past, they'll probably react as if you have offended the honour of their mother). +MATIA ☎ 22:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, do you have any idea how absurd it sounds saying that Britannica is POV. You yourself have emphasised that the Arvanites are not Albanians, why are you now trying to include them in the Albanian language article? Do you have any idea how inconcistent that is? It is not a copyvio, as it is a sentence. Copyrights don't apply to sentences. They apply to names, pictures, logos etc. You didn't think that that bit about the Greek and Italian enclaves was a copyvio, did you? I would also like to ask you what is your authority for saying that Britannica is POV. Are there no ethnic Albanians in Greece? What about the Shqiptar of Epirus? You pretend they don't exist right? What about the Chams and the 600,000 ethnic Albanian immigrants? They don't count, do they? Either Arvanites are Albanians, or they are not. Make up your mind. If they are not, then the Albanian language article is not refering to them. Rex(talk) 22:58, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Also, the Helsinki Report says that there are c. 30,000 Arvanites in Epirus and Western Macedonia who call themselves Shqiptar and their language Shqip. Why are you pretending that thye don;t exist? Are thay second class, because ou don't approve of their views? Rex(talk) 23:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
So? The Helsinki Report mentions them, and that's sufficient. We cannot pretend that they do not exist because MATIA wishes it so. I advise you to read Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources in languages other than English. The Helsinki Report takes precedence over Biris and Kollias. What a shame, I guess we will have to add the Shqiptar to the first paragraph of the Arvanites article. WP:NPOV remember. Rex(talk) 23:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The cladistically part is already analysed in Arvanitic language. The sociolinguistic part is missing for the time being. I have access to Kollias' and Moraitis' book and I've seen at least two differences between their books and the H report. +MATIA ☎ 15:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
For easy reference:
I followed the link theathenae gave us and found this! Is this arvanitic language? I would like to hear your opinion about it. If true, it is fascinating that ancient writings in Arbanitic language have been discovered! Kemla 09:52, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
This is the link Kemla was referring to: [10].
I am surprised that no one talked about the contents of the link Kemla provided. Of course, I should not be surprised being that this discussion page looks more like a warzone. Moreover, Aldux is of no help being that for some strange reason archaeological evidence of writings are somehow unimportant or at least "unworthy" of some sort of mention. So much for basing history on some semblance of physical evidence.
I am aware that this so-called "sensitive" topic is so radioactive that any slight mention of the Arvanites being either completely Greek or completely Albanian will lead to heated controversy beyond belief. Yet, if there is archaeological evidence that shows Greek-Arvanitic writings, then why should they not be included in the article? The more people know about the Arvanites, the better.
Frankly, I find the Arvanites to be Greeks through and through (and not just merely "Hellenized Albanians"). The incessant arguments over their origins will only lead to greater confusion for the average reader. Moreover, any form of "compromise" established between two or more groups will ultimately weaken or decimate any form of historical accuracy (in exchange for "appeasing" a particular group(s) that only cares about deluding itself into false historical complacency).
If people have a problem with Arvanites themselves showing their history through archaeological evidence, then this article will only fail to address the history of the Arvanites in an historically accurate fashion. If the Arvanites are Greeks and have proof of their origins, then the least Wikipedia could do is give their physical findings/proofs some mention. Simple. Over and out. - Deucalionite 12/10/05 8:19 P.M. EST
If you are an Arvanitis or if you want to learn more about them, try Biris book. It's about 25-30$ and it is one of the most NPOV books I've ever read (Biris uses a very scientifical approach). The only reason I didn't remove the reference on ancient greek inscriptions is that I've seen something similar somewhere (perhaps at the book Kollias has written). However, I wish you could understand how little this addition help people understand who are the Arvanites. Just for the record, Aldux is one of the very good admins and editors here at WP. As you say: Simple, over and out. +MATIA ☎ 01:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
More data on those findings are needed. I've rewritten your addition and moved it at a seperate section (Arvanites#Ancient_Greek_inscriptions). I must tell you that there are archaeological findings of Byzantine and Ottoman era (inscriptions in Arvanitika for example).
Arvanites self-identify as Greeks. While that's more than enough for me, they also have their history and their culture that are all the proofs that may be needed.
If you read more carefully my previous comment, you'll see that I've written they were soldiers, not writers. They fighted instead of writing poems or novels.
In that article I'm mostly interesting in Byzantine and Venetian historical records. While there can be many theories for X, Y, or Z people, the historical records are not just theory, but facts. Of course facts should be cross-checked, but that is easier than proving a theory for something that is not recorded by historians. I have many notes on Arvanites, from the various books I've found at libraries, that I haven't yet presented. Perhaps I'll try to do so within the next days. +MATIA ☎ 01:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The people who are listed as "Famous Arvanites" are not all Arvanites, Here's what the article states:
[[Famous Arvanites- Greek War of Independence Andreas Miaoulis, admiral and later politician Markos Botsaris, leader of Souliotes, defender of Messolonghi Laskarina Bouboulina, the only female member of Filiki Etaireia Nikolaos Krieziotis, leader of the Greek Revolution in Evoia Presidents of Greece Pavlos Kountouriotis, admiral and later politician Theodoros Pangalos, general and briefly military dictator Prime Ministers of Greece Kitsos Tzavelas Georgios Kountouriotis Antonios Kriezis, served in Greek navy during the revolution, later politician Dimitrios Voulgaris Athanasios Miaoulis Diomidis Kiriakos Theodoros Pangalos, general and later politician Alexandros Korizis Petros Voulgaris Alexandros Diomidis Greek politicians Theodoros Pangalos, former minister of Foreign Affairs, member of PASOK Artists Nikos Engonopoulos, painter and poet]]
Im quite familiar with most of these historical figures, and most if not all of them are of Greek Ancestry, this is the first time Ive ever heard of them being refred to as having Arvanitic ancestry, so basically the names of these histoical figures will be permenantly deleted from this article very soon if there is no sufficient Non-biased evidence which can confirm each and every of the people listed are of Avranitic origins. ---E-mail adress02:03, 12 Dec 2005 (UTC)
First of all it is Arvanitic not Avranitic. Secondly this is a carefully selected and verified list of people. Third, vandalism of this article will be reported instantly. +MATIA ☎ 17:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
First of all it is Arvanitic not Avranitic
Firstly I’m quite aware its “Arvanitic” as I used the word several times in my initial post and unintentionally misspelt it once, its called a typo
Secondly this is a carefully selected and verified list of people.
Carefully selected by whom? By nationalistic fanatics in search of foreign history?
Third, vandalism of this article will be reported instantly
The only one vandalising this article is you and several others by adding historically incorrect misinformation, it is a violation of the wikipedia rules to intentionally add false unsourced information to articles. (see: Reliable_sources Verifiability)
Botsaris phara was from Souli, the oldest historical records for that phara date around 1500
Yes precisely he was a souliot, I suggest you read up on Souliotes
Pangalos was from Eleusina or Agkistri, both the general and his grandson has declared repeatedly their Arvanitic identity
Sources/Links:
Krieziotis was from Karystos an Arvanitic village
Sources/Links:
Engonopoulos has also declared his identity in interviews and has done some paintings with arvanitic themes (for example Mercouris Boua, an Arvanitis war-leader who fought the Ottomans).
If you keep making these assertions you are going to need to back them up with some authentic verifiable evidence from non biased NPOV sources.
(for example Mercouris Boua, an Arvanitis war-leader who fought the Ottomans). Most of these...
Most is not all, each and every one of these historical figures ancestry needs to be proven to be Arvanitic from an authentic historical source or it will be permanently removed and belive me I will personally go through the Arvanitic article with a fine tooth comb and remove anything which is innacurate and/or false.
Some Arvanites claim that Kolokotronis was also an Arvanitis but this is disputed and so I haven't included him (and I don't know whether he was also partially an Arvanitis)
Listen Matia.gr stop basing your judgements of these particular Historcal figures lineage on Arvanitic folktales. Some of the less well known people you stated may very well be Arvanites but what you need to provide is Authentic verifiable NPOV evidence, I’ll give you some more time to find evidence that clearly states that these people were Arvanites, if you cant I will remove their names from the article, Simple as that. E-mail adress 12:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Eleftheria Arvanitaki is listed as Icarian. Does her surname hint of Arvanite ancestry?
I don't have a clue about Eleftheria Arvanitaki's ancestry. +MATIA ☎ 12:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I have also checked General Pangalos's memoirs, Krieziotis and Kriezis biographies (the author of the last biography, was a Kriezis himself and a member of the greek pariament, from Hydra). So User:E-mail adress if you are familiar with these books, I am expecting your explanations on the subject you raised. In the past we had Albanian and other editors who claimed that Arvanites are not Greeks, however what Arvanites say and what Arvanites have done are the evidence for the opposite. If you want to claim that the books that I've listed in that article (most of them at the Bibliography section) are biased, I expect you to check the books first (start with Bires and Moraitis) and then we can talk about it. +MATIA ☎ 12:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
questions for User:E-mail adress: are the refugees from the 1922 disaster at Asia Minor less Greeks? Pontioi are less Greeks? Cretans are less Greeks? Eptanisioi (Επτανήσιοι) are less Greeks? What about the "native" inhabitants of Athens (Γκαγκαραίοι), are they more Greeks? (keep in your mind, before answering, that Γκαγκαραίοι were Arvanites). Read these carefully, along perhaps with previous discussions in that huge talk page and please explain your position. +MATIA ☎ 12:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Pay attention MATIA and Stop straying from the preliminary subject and building strawman arguments, here we are discussing the “arvaniteness” of the people who you have listed as Arvanites. Im not interested in discussing the Greekness of the various populations you have mentioned, if you wish to discusss them go to the GreekTalk Page. E-mail adress