The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Ascalon, per discussion. I see no true opposition to the name "Ascalon", and a consensus for the name. I wasn't thinking and closed at first without clarifying/a rationale... oops. Also, (closed by non-admin page mover) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 23:31, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Tel Ashkelon → Askalon
• Tel Ashkelon → Ascalon
• Ascalon → Ascalon (disambiguation)

See addendum below. The page should move to the naturally disambiguated name for the ancient city of "Askalon", per WP:NCDAB. This page is about the ancient city of Ascalon, Ashkelon or Askalon, but is currently prevented from occupying either the first two of those by, respectively, the expansive disambiguation page for Ascalon and the modern Israeli city at Ashkelon. While "Tel Ashkelon" is also natural disambiguation, it is longer, more technical and more obscure (and thus less recognizable) than the proposed. Readers cannot be expected to either search for "Tel" or, upon seeing "Tel", deduce that this is an archaeological site and therefore the page about the ancient city, if that is what they are looking for. This is not useful or helpful. A rudimentary Google Scholar search appears to show around 1,500 hits for "Askalon" +ancient city, compared to a few hundred for "Tel Ashkelon", providing a clear indication that the current title and natural disambiguation is a more rarefied one than the proposed. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:18, 20 June 2023 (UTC) Addendum: Upon reflection on the balance of usage and sources, and the discussion below, it feels like the subject here, as the eponymous city of antiquity and the medieval period from which all other uses of the name "Ascalon" are derived, actually does have a clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC claim, and the page should be at Ascalon, with the disambiguation page at Ascalon (disambiguation). Iskandar323 (talk) 08:44, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Light oppose - I understand your point that numerous, technically distinct, locales have occupied the ancient site, however, Askalon is a decently attested version of the standard English Ashkelon which has no distinct connotation of the ancient city, whereas Tel Ashkelon unambiguously refers to the ancient Iron Age locale. The Google Scholar results likewise do not use Askalon to refer exclusively to the ancient city - to the contrary, almost all of the results you have linked use Askalon to refer to the modern city, despite the mentions of the ancient city therein. On a side note: the usage of Askalon doesn't seem to have clear ancient precedent, the Greek form is only attested to in the late Classical era of antiquity, after the 4th century BC, which leaves out the thousands of years of habitation at Ashkelon that preceded it. Not to mention, there are older forms of the name, cf. Egyptian Isqaluni, Hebrew ʾAšqəlōn, reconstructed Philistine *ʾAšqalōn, or Akkadian Isqaluna. That being said, I concur that there are numerous cases for disambiguation, and so I offer a suggestion: rather than batch renaming, why not separate some of the various phases of inhabitation into their own pages? There is a precedent for this: compare Samaria (ancient city) and Sebastia, Nablus; or Shechem/Tell Balata and Balata village/Nablus. Emolu (talk) 14:40, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Ascalon is the principle variant of the name used by the Byzantines Greeks/Romans and essentially from that point onwards by Western Christendom until the end of the Crusades at the tail of the High Middle Ages in 1270 CE, and Askalon is just a variant spelling of Ascalon - but Askalon has not been widely re-used as a place name and popular culture reference like Ascalon. In terms of it claim to fame, Ascalon/Askalon is most associated with the medieval city, as reflected in the Battle of Ascalon and Siege of Ascalon of the Crusader period, and this is, in turn, arguably the city's most famous period, as somewhat evidenced by the section on the page. Perhaps it should simply be at Ascalon, and the disambiguation page should move to Ascalon (disambiguation), but that's something of another layer of discussion. The sources for the general usage are things like [2][3][4][5][6] - all of which pertain to the excavation of the ancient city. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  NB: Having done a bit more reading, and feeling the weighting of the sources, I'm now thinking that a straight move to Ascalon, displacing that disambiguation page to Ascalon (disambiguation) might actually be the best option. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:25, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Ngrams would agree with you. "Ascalon" always refers to the historical site – i.e. the subject of this article – and is good natural disambiguation. Notably even today Ascalon and Ashkelon are roughly equal in frequency, and usually referring to the ancient and modern locations respectively. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:30, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Ascalon was a rather bloated disambiguation page when I began the RM, but in its present trimmed down and streamlined form, it's pretty clear that there is little real competition for the classical/medieval city. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:38, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Readers cannot be expected to either search for "Tel" or, upon seeing "Tel", deduce that this is an archaeological site" Why? We have an article on the term tell and an entire category on Category:Tells (archaeology). The name is not unique. Dimadick (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know a tell is a thing, but whether Ascalon was ever a tell in the classical archaeological sense of a distinctive settlement mound is unclear. It seems like every since archaeological site in Israel is named Tel something regardless of whether or not it is a tell, as if tell just shorthand for 'archaeological site'. Is it actually meant to signify the specific archaeological feature of a tell here? I can't tell. Ascalon was a semi-circular port city that as far as I can tell was never properly buried, but remained always partially visible, notably along the beach. But one way or another, it is a side point. The main point is actual usage and the weighty WP:COMMONNAME case. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:17, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak support. I'm not a fan of these sorts of distinctions between etymologically indistinguishable and in practice often interchangeable forms, but it is true that "Ascalon" always refers to the historical site and is not used for the modern city. Given the obvious problems with the current title, it seems an improvement. It's also the obvious primary topic. Srnec (talk) 02:22, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Clear common name and primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per my comment above. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]