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I thought this battle marked the end of the use of the war chariot as a major weapon of war because of alexander's tactics. I'm not a regular editor or anything,so i'm not doing it, but just thought that should be added. You're wrong chariots were used in britain during the ceaser's invasion commentaries on gallic war 4:32
Will someone please link me to a page containing a decisive Persian victory? It seems like the entire history of that empire is fielding huge armies and getting butchered by smaller ones (Thermopylae, Salamis, Gaugamela, Plataea, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.161.27 (talk) 03:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Look up Cyrus the Great —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.188.234.227 (talk) 23:14, 24 April 2011 (UTC) Persian foot archers were second best light infantry the world(first were Chinese crossbowmen)after establishing the empire they had the world's best light cavalry i.e., the mounted archers of the steppe in their northeastern provinces and the had world best heavy cavalry i.e., cataphracts they were the precursor to the medieval knights unlike the knight's plate armor to the rider and horse they the mail armor and the immortals were neither an exceptional nor the worst heavy infantry but under most circumstances, you can count on them. the Persians lost to the greeks because of weaker heavy infantry and bad tactics
^^^ The Persian army was an exceptionally effective war machine, if it was otherwise, the Achaemenid Empire would have been impossible to establish. It is though, because of their defeats (for whatever reason) especially those suffered at the hands of Alexander- the history and recordings of their decisive victories aren't well known due to destruction by invaders. "History is written by the victors". 60.225.92.43 (talk) 07:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC) C.S AUS
If I recall the conventions of classical military history, Hoplites specifically refer to the citizen-soldiers of the Greek city-states who fought with spear and shield, not Macedonian professionals fighting with pikes and smaller shields. I'm pretty damn sure that John Warry's Warfare in the Classical World will back me up here, so I'm going to change the designation of the Macedonian infantry. Wilhelm Ritter 13:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I moved the page back to the original name. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Battles no need for date in name unless as a disambiguation.
If you wish the page name to include the year and it is not for disambiguation, please discuss it under Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Battles#Dates in battle page names --Philip Baird Shearer 10:52, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I know this may not be the most pressing of questions, but how are the vowels of 'Gaugamela' pronounced?
I (English) always thought it was pronounced the same as 'cow cammeller', but the narrator of a history programme (American) pronounced it 'gwagameela'. I think he was wrong, but I can not think of any other time I have heard it said (not something most people have conversations about!). Oswax 20:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
The proper pronunciation is Gog-a-Mel-a Rowanis12 (talk) 16:04, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
The Brueghel painting on this page comes from the commons, where it is also identified as Gaugamela, but there's a lot info on the web suggesting that it might depict the Battle of Issus. Google gives far more English results for "Battle of Issus" + Brueghel than for Arbela or Gaugamela, and there are some sites [4] [5] [6] that list both Issus and Arbella as the title. I suspect that the subject of the painting might really not be known, or might be disputed, but if anyone has access to a reputable source (like the title the Louvre displays), it would be nice to make sure that our caption is accurate. ×Meegs 08:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Aelian (Var. Hist. 2.25) has the date as the 6th of Thargelion, roughly the beginning of May. Haiduc 03:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, some sources state "October 31" while this says October 1. I do remember a report a few years back about the date being determined from the date of the eclipse, so I'm not certain if Oct 1 is the "old number" or the "new number."Ryoung122 17:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
The battle of Gaugamela took place 11 days after a lunar eclipse. This is reported both by Arrian and Plutarch. From astronomical calculations we know that a lunar eclipse occurred on the night of September 20, 331 BC. Therefore the battle took place on October 1. The date of this battle is actually one of the few firm dates that we have in Alexander's career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.63.136.146 (talk) 18:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
The article says, "The battle is also inaccurately called the Battle of Arbela." In which sense is this incorrect? - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I also would like to know why the alternative name is "inaccurate." Why can't it just say "The battle is also called the Battle of Arbela"? Or, "The battle is less commonly called the Battle of Arbela"?- Mark1000 30 Sep 2006 (I'm afraid I'm new to "talk," so I don't know what that link means. I apologize for any ettiquette violations.)
This is a good site for this stuff http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/warfare/battle/gaugamel.html I am the anonymous making the changes, in accordance to this source
These numbers are inflated. There is no way the Persians had so many men. Historians cannot put numbers on battles this ancient and on battles that have so widely been exaggerated for thousands of years no matter how hard they try. I say we put both armies at unknown numbers.Khosrow II 04:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia Iranic clearly states that the ancient figures are worthless [10] (by the way, for those that dont know, Encyclopaedia Iranica is a work being carried out by Cambridge University and is considered to be the highest authority regarding Iranian history). I put unknown in, this way, everyone is happy. Its a good compromise.Khosrow II 23:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Seek out a copy of Marsden's 'Campaign of Gaugamela' (Liverpool University Press, 1970s). I think this is the most reasoned and detailed account of the composition of both armies. Persian forces (discounting the second or reserve battle line of unenthusiastic levies who - these were not Kardakes which were a better grade of infantry and which had been pretty much wiped from the order of battle after Issos) effectively (e.g. main battle line) amount to 33,000 cavalry and only 9,000 infantry. Alexander's army comprising 38,500 infantry , but only around 7,000 cavalry.
I would say that the Persian army numbered 250,000 to 255,000 at most, no more than that. Had the case been that Alexander's army had indeed fought a 1,040,000 strong or a million men strong army and had won as effectively as they are portrayed to have won then they would certainly have not been unwilling to fight Nanda's 220,000 strong army with it's 3000 elephants as I am certain that no matter how terrifying Nanda's army may have seemed to the Greeks a million man army would have been far more terrifying to behold and far more demoralizing to fight and contemplate as such an army would indeed look like it is as vast as the sea and in case you do not agree with me all you need to do is imagine you are a soldier in the front lines of Alexander's army and have faced the Persians at Gaugamela and now have to face the Indians of Nanda's army, respectively, would you be as frightened and demoralized of the Indian army (as much as the Greeks actually were) if you knew that you have defeated an army 5 times larger than this one? No rather you would be able to encourage yourself to fight them and would have faith in your commander and king who has seen you through tougher conditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.162.6 (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Would be modern historians of the caliber of Fox, Green, Bosworth etc, not Lendering. Wikipedia's guidelines say this about reliable sources:
"In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analysing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Material that is self-published, whether on paper or online, is generally not regarded as reliable"[11]
"Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so."''[12]
Thank you for the link. I accept that Lendering's mention in the BMCR, which I was not aware of, probably does make him meet WP:RS. However I am still not comfortable with the way that his theory about Darius's breaking features more prominently in this article than the more commonly held view of him instigating the flight of the whole army, which is supported by Arrian, Plutarch. I propose that this section is reworked to reflect that Lendering's opinion is in the minority. --Trolip (talk)
I have provided a quote from Arrian to create more balance in this section and have removed the comment about Diodorus agreeing, since his account of the battle is entirely different from the one in this article and is also different from Lendering's argument. Diodorus, like Arrian, says that the flight became general after Darius fled (17.60), which is different from Lendering's claim. I hope this is a fair compromise.--Trolip 02:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a piece on the discussion on the night(or dusk) preceding the battle, specifically the discussion between Alexander, Parmenio et al. about whether to launch a night attack could be included. It is, in my view, an important aspect on the battle, and shows a lot about Alexander's character and his feelings about the battle ahead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.185.65 (talk) 17:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC) Persians were waiting all night for a Macedonian attack .So if Alexander had attacked during the night he couldn't have used his tactics without a good view of the battle then for alexander would be left with either an orderly retreat or a pyrrhic victory
the number of Persian elite immortals were always kept at 10,000 no matter what. please do not change this to 15,000 as it is totally absurd. especially when most of the immortals perished in issus.
FYI There is still a 15,000 reference in the article.
By the time of Alexander's was against Persia the Immortals no longer existed as a Corps. of 10,000. There were two 1,000 strong Guard units, one of cavalry and one of infantry.
It wasn't the Immortals who 'perished at Issos' it wsa the Persian Kardakes (who were more like a citizen militia / paramilitary police). Armed with short spear, short axe (or sword) and shield, possibly with linen armour, no helmets and certainly not an elite guard.
Demoted to "Start", as citations are needed in the Location section. Ejosse1 (talk) 18:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The Battles of Salamis, Thermopylae, Mycale, and Marathon claim descisive Greek victory, when two or three Greek city states fought in these battles, yet the Battles of Gaugamela, Issus, Granicus claim Macedonian victory, when the whole of the Greeks fought against the Persians yet again, implying much from the point of the reader. Why Macedonian here and not Athenian victory at the battle of Marathon? But "descisive Greek victory"? What does that imply? Are the Macedonians distinct from the rest of the Greek nation? WAS THIS NOT A UNITED GREEK EXPEDITION? Was it not a Greek victory at Gaugamela, Issus and Granicus, etc? Were the Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks not united under the pan-Hellenic league of Corinth? Was this not a combined expedition of the Greeks against their traditional enemies the Persians? Are you authors attempting to re-write history?
And I quote!
Alexander sent to Athens three hundred full suits of Persian armour as a votive offering to Athena on the Acropolis, with orders for the following inscription to accompany them:”An offering from Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, apart from the Spartans, taken from the barbarians who live in Asia.” Arrian I.16.7
Alexander wanted lo reinvigorate his men, it now being wintertime, and remained there at Persepolis for four months. It is said that, when the king first seated himself on the royal throne under the golden awning, the Corinthian Demaratus – a kindly man who had been a friend of Alexander’s father – burst into tears, as old men do. Those Greeks had been deprived of a very pleasurable experience, he reportedly said, who had died before seeing Alexander seated on Darius’ throne.
Plutarch, Alexander 37.6-7
It has been reported to me that it was the rhetorician Isocrates who was responsible for the servitude that the Macedonian imposed on the Persians. For the fame of the speech Panegyricus, which Isocrates delivered to the Greeks, spread to Macedonia, And it was this that first stirred Philip’s animosity towards Asia. When Philip died, the speech provided the incentive for his son Alexander, heir to his father’s estate, to keep up Philip’s momentum.
Aelian, Varia Historia 13.11
I added the last one because Isocrates was the only Greek who went around from city state to city state across ancient Greece and Magna Grecia, trying to convince the Greeks to attack the Persians and drive the barbarians from Asia Minor, he found fertile ground in the court of Philip II of Macedon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.187.173 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 28 March 2011
This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.
Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup6. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.
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Johnuniq (talk) 11:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
In the article I find this line:" During the battle Alexander used an unusual strategy which has been duplicated only a few times throughout history. While the infantry battled the Persian troops in the center, Alexander began to ride all the way to the edge of the right flank, accompanied by his Companion Cavalry." Can somebody clarify this, preferably with sources?
Wereldburger758 (talk) 13:08, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
In the second picture of the battle (Alexander's decisive movement and Decisive Attack) one can see that one cavalry unit of the Persians has swerved around the left flank of the Greek and attacks the Greeks from behind. Again, are there any sources that state this. Logic says that if this had really happened, Alexander's left flank would have collapsed. To my recollection, the Persians were only able to breach the Greek falanx in the middle because of a gap that appeared in the lines and the Persians who breached it were dealt with by those who were left in reserve by Alexander. Wereldburger758 (talk) 13:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Pretty clearly says in the description of the photo itself that it's "Porus at the Battle of the Hydaspes (Jhelum)," so totally different battle. Maybe the giant on an elephant should have given that away. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.125.123 (talk) 07:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree, first picture is about Hydaspes Battle. The enemy king doesn´t look like Dario, he does like Poro. Besides, we can see in the picture big trees and a large mass of water (the sea or a big river). We can´t find these elements in Gaugamela.--Gonzalo5331 (talk) 13:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
The section pertaining to the contemporary location of the Battle is incorrect, specifically the co-ordinates given for Stein's placement of the battlefield. When the file opens (I have only tried Google Earth,) the site indicates a location approximately 5 miles due east of the Ruins of Nineveh. In Notes on Alexander's Crossing Of the Tigris River Stein describes the battlefield as running "by the plain first on a line running approximately from near Qaraqosh in the south past Keramlais to the foot of the Jabal 'Ain-as-Satrah."[1] This would place the battlefield farther to the east and west. The town names have changed. Keramlais is now Karemlesh, and Qaraqosh is referred to by some as Bakhdida.
Stein also makes note of a large mound just west of Keramlais, which is clearly visible on satellite imaging viewers.[2] The rough terrain described by Stein just south of Qaraqosh, Arrian, and Curtius is also evident in any view, or on topographical maps.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the help page). To the east of Qaraqosh is the high ground mentioned by Curtius that Alexander pressed his men to reach.[3]
As such, the easternmost part of the battlefield would run on a line from roughly 36°16'09"N, 43°22'04"E (Qaraqosh) to 36°22'36"N, 43°25'14"E (the base of Jabal 'Ain-as-Satrah,) with the mid-point located at 36°19'38"N, 43°23'50"E. The center of the battle line would be oriented almost exactly toward Nineveh, which makes logical sense, given Steins argument that Alexander most likely crossed the Tigris near Abu Wajnam,[4] and then proceeded towards Nineveh, where he rested his forces for four days.[5][6].
In light of these observations, I believe that co-ordinates to the battlefield should be changed to accurately reflect Stein's assessment of where the Battle of Gaugamela occurred. My recommendation would be vicinity of 36°19'38"N, 43°23'50"E, based on his very detailed description in Alexander's Crossing of the Tigris and the Battle of Arbela.
Note: Pardon the clutter, as this is my first Wikipedia post, I am not used to the reference templates. I am used to the CMS method of annotation, and manually entered all my references, and after several attempts to get my citations done, believe I have finally figured it all out.
Tank0133 (talk) 22:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)Tank
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I think that all this fake "history" on Wikipedia is rubbish. It is under a huge influence of modern greek propaganda.
There were NO GREEKS in ancient times. "Greek" is invented word for the invented nation that started to exist in 1830s (only few centuries before it was in preparation and definitely it was not existing in ancient times - in ancient times there were ancient people)
For the sake of ancient Macedonians, please RETURN "Macedonian army" on the places where you totaly unfair to ancient macedonians write "greek army". It is unfair because you are describing something that happened 2300 years ago when there were no greeks with terms invented latter and then rename the older name according to the new name.
And please do not play games with names. :( It is waste of time not only me and you - for generations that will read about this battle....
It will be the best for the future generations if you just translate (but literally - not with changing of names and giving narration) existing REAL books (if any! --- not fake propaganda from before few centuries).
And it will be real benefit for the future generations if you mark that this page (and similar pages) are heavily disputed by the Macedonians of 21st century. Just for the generations that will come to know that this is not black and white page (meaning >nothing< according "black" (Macedonian of 21st century side) and >everything< according "white" (Greek of 21st century side)) 88.85.115.130 (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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The contested text is: "A less common view is that Darius' army was already broken when he ran; this view is supported by an astronomical diary from Babylon written within days of the battle" The source is now here:[13] and the relevant commentary is "One important point. That Darius' troops, as recorded on day twenty-four, left their king, has created embarrassment among classicists, because it contradicts what is written by the ancient Greek and Roman historians Curtius Rufus, Plutarch of Chaeronea and Arrian of Nicomedia: that Darius fled from the battle field. I have seen the lines of the Astronomical Diary translated as "the king deserted the troops"; this error may have been caused by the odd sequence of the words of the Babylonian author, "the king, his troops left him"."
How does this comment by Jona Lendering back the article text, now removed? I'd say that Lendering is a reliable source, might need attribution, but that's not the issue here. Does Lendering say "A less common view is that Darius' army was already broken when he ran; this view is supported by an astronomical diary from Babylon written within days of the battle"? Doug Weller talk 17:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Does anyone have an issue with the word 'decisive' in the infobox? It fits pretty well here, and I see no reason to remove it. HalfdanRagnarsson (talk) 08:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
result – optional – this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section"). Such a note can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result. Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much.
Used for all conflicts and combat operations, such as battles, campaigns, and wars. The "result" parameter has often been a source of contention. Particular attention should be given to the advice therein. The infobox does not have the scope to reflect nuances, and should be restricted to "X victory" or "See aftermath" (or similar) where the result was inconclusive or does not otherwise fit with these restrictions. In particular, terms like "Pyrrhic victory" or "decisive victory" are inappropriate for outcomes. It may also be appropriate to omit the "result".
In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section"). Such a note can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result.So, if it's your contention that "Macedonian victory" does not "accurately describe the outcome", based on the documentation, "a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail". "Such a note" would be either "See Aftermath section" or "Macedonian victory – See Aftermath section" or similar. But if that's not your argument, and you want it to say "decisive Macedonian victory", then as I explained in my previous response, the documentation defines the standard terms to be used and admonishes:
Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive".
In particular, terms like "Pyrrhic victory" or "decisive victory" are inappropriate for outcomes.If you are trying to convince us to ignore that WP:GUIDELINE, what is your rationale? But, more importantly, you're wasting our time with this discussion here – as I said before, this isn't the correct venue for a discussion to override a guideline per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS:
Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale.You are correct that WP:CD is not the proper venue, since this is not a wp-en wide issue. The "Guidance on results" discussion you linked to at the talk page of WP:MILMOS is where you should raise the issue. And as a result of that discussion you linked to, you can see that the guideline was changed a couple of years ago. That's where you need to have this discussion.
Can the page be unlocked? It stops a lot of useful contributions. (Per discussion here) 183.83.146.145 (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
You should find sources for this kind of information because it changes totally the way this battle is seen. Without sources, i would rather prefer we don't announce fake numbers Dondarderno (talk) 02:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)