GA Review

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Nominator: Pokelego999 (talk · contribs) 03:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs) 14:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Let's see what this character article crazy is all about. I'll try to take a good look at this article today and over the weekend. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review first draft

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I was going to go through a few detailed points, but there are some specific issues that are all over the map with this article.

Prose

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Sourcing

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I'm not going to fail this as I think there is a lot of content here, but it really need some re-organizing. I'll leave it up to you @Pokelego999: (or any other interested editor) before giving it a more thorough review. Feel free to ping me if you have any more specific questions. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrzejbanas made requested edits where I could. I have a few questions though, which I've listed below alongside fixes for some specific problems.
-Wikipedia:It should be noted discusses "noted" when the editor themselves uses it to address the reader and promote an opinion. It mentions nothing about the Reception, where we are stating that another author noted something and are not attempting to use noted to sway reader opinion. (Functionally different use cases: Instead of "It should be noted that Birdo is..." (Where the writer is attempting to push their opinion) versus "Author So and Such, writing for a website, noted in an op-ed..." (Where we are simply stating that somebody else has said this)) It shouldn't be too much of an issue given the use of this word in this context has no opinion-based connotations, and I have taken care not to use it outside of Reception. I did touch on the however problem, as most of those were leftovers from older edits I forgot to remove, though I am a bit confused in regards to "However"'s use case with the 100 Greatest Video Game Characters source, as MOS:SAY only describes "However" in the context of linking two or more sources, not in the context of describing differing angles within the same source.
So i'm glad you brought this up as "noted" still holds a sliver more weight than simply saying someone said anything. "Noted" is a bit more of a stressor, like "please note that the rent is due" suggests an implied importance of what follows, while simply saying someone wrote or said something is a bit more neutral. Compare it to the less urgent "The landlord said the rent is due at the end of the month" is a bit less pushy. This is mild, but I've had several reviews of my own where noted has been asked to be pulled without even claiming a rule, and I feel it makes things better. As for the However, even if its in its own book, it does suggest that one POV of an author more valid than their other issue. I read "howevers" so often in video game articles, even featured ones, and they are almost always used in reception right after some bad reviews are listed followed by some more positive ones. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How would you suggest changing the 100 Greatest Video Game Characters source to remove However? I'm admittedly uncertain given both viewpoints are given relatively equal weight in the book. Also, though I personally disagree on the "noted" topic, I've taken the liberty of removing them from Reception regardless, so do let me know if the new wordings are alright. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Could you clarify what kind of edits you want me to make in regards to series context? Most of it isn't relevant for understanding Reception, hence why I avoided much description due to undue weight concerns. I feel I get sort of what you're saying (Defining what each individual game is, i.e, Mario Kart is a racing series, the RPG games are turn based combat games, etc) but I'm confused as to how you would want that accomplished best in the article, since I can see multiple different angles for fixing that. For now, I've clarified some information in the Appearances section regarding Doki Doki Panic and Super Mario Bros. 2.
I don't have it quite on hand, but I know one of the sources in the article did clarify some key information to people who may be approaching this from a "random article" perspective. I.e: one says that the narrative isn't a focus in the Mario series and another mentions that Birdo initially appears as a boss character. I think this would give context to new readers. Something to the effect of "Birdo is a character in the Super Mario series of video games. These games primarily focus on gameplay and have simple narratives. There is little information regarding Birdo in design and narrative in these games." Then you can move on to "Birdo first appears in Doki Doki Panic, a game that was later re-designed into Super Mario Bros. 2." This is important, as it comes into play a lot with the gender and trans discussions. Following that, I think saying "Birdo has since made appearance as a boss character in various games including as a boss character in Super Mario RPG (1996), Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (2003)...as a playable character in various Mario sports games such as (list two to three here) and cameo apperances in ______." I think listing every individual game Birdo shows up in might come off as a bit trivial, but it shows scope of Birdo's apperance, what they might do (they are playable! they are a boss baddie! etc.). If we add years to the end of games as well in the article, it also helps the reader read between the lines to get more information. Such as, Birdo first appearing in Doki Doki Panic (1987) and the years following this sort of fill in the blanks of the longevity of the character, showing up again throughout the games in the 90s, 2000s, and so forth. 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
I believe you're referring to the TheGamer source? The article states "Narrative has never been all that crucial to Mario - hence why The Super Mario Bros. Movie was just a bunch of stuff that happened - and so we think of the characters in frozen states. Mario hasn't changed much over the years. Peach has gained a little more agency recently, but she hasn't struggled for it or earned it, she has just evolved with the times. The Mario characters are the same archetypes they always were, and that works for the Mario formula. But Birdo is a rare exception." I tried to adapt what I could from your suggestions, but I do worry your initial suggestion of describing narrative in the Mario series via this source may border on original research, so I just kept it to the basics. I've reorganized Appearances a bit per your suggestions, so let me know your thoughts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for going through this. I think what I was trying to say were these key points
  • "Narrative has never been all that crucial to Mario" which could be phrased as something like "In the Super Mario video games, narrative is generally not the primary focus with most characters being presented as archetypes. Stacey Henley of TheGamer said Birdo was an exception..." and then we can go into details of how Birdo has been interpreted. I don't think we're pulling too many words that aren't there from TheGamer article with that. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Removed references to Robirdo and some of the minor details you suggested removed. Also rephrased using your suggestions.
-I altered the text in the spin-off appearances section (Changed from later appearances to more correct text, I honestly forgot Double Dash got brought up prior to those games when writing this.)
-I've rephrased the lead to be a bit more accurate to the article content. Let me know your thoughts on this.
I think I brought it up before, but antagonist sort of suggests that Birdo is the main enemy in Mario 2. Not really the case as that would be Wart. I think Boss or if you can find such a description, "Mini-boss" might be more appropriate here. I'll make more suggestions as I get into the meat and potatoes of the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed the phrasing from "antagonist" to "boss." Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Removed the Smash Football reference since I cannot find any citation reference outside of that link.
Unfortunate, but fair. Thanks Nintendo... Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-I'm a bit confused on how you want me to utilize the statement about the ads with the IGN source. Could you clarify this information?
The phrasing said Birdo had a female voice actor, while the source I believe just said Birdo sounded like someone's mother. we can extrapolate this on how Birdo is presented from a gendered persepctive. Maybe an over-riding statement in the articles saying something Perhaps something like "Birdo has been presented with both male and female sounding voices in different mediums". Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changed per your suggestion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Fixed the Superstar Saga cite; I meant to cite Game Rant there, not TheGamer.
All good. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Completely overlooked the 1UP cite during my round of edits. I found a few sources that back up the statement, though they're small mentions, so I reworded it. Let me know if you want me to axe this section entirely.
The 1up source might be a bit more buried within the pages, I've seen some old citations just refer to this deeper in these multi-page articles. I didn't check that far, but might be worth digging into. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Added additional information on the book source.
-Nintendo Life has a weird thing with the citation templates where it generates the author as "Nintendo Life" instead of the author name. I try to patch that where I can but in this case I missed it. Thanks for the catch.
No problem. None of the issues should be brought up on my reflections as you or anyone as an editor to be fair, its just me doing the rounds on an article. I didn't notice it until a second or third quick check either. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do let me know what you believe would be best as reviewer edit wise on some of these issues, as I do wish to clarify a few points before I make edits. Let me know if there's anything else beyond the above you'd like me to change, as well. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Pokelego999. I've responded to your comments here and can probably do a more thorough review after these are done/responded to. Good work so far! Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs) I've made edits per your suggestions. Apologies about the wait, my notifications didn't notify me for whatever reason and I've been busy the past few days. Let me know your thoughts as you take another look through the article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. I feel like when you edited one portion of the article @Pokelego999:, you didn't adjust this in other sections making it still a bit complicated. I've started going through the article when I noticed some parts haven't really changed to reflect your most recent changes and updates.

Phrasing

This is a bit frustrating to write about as Nintendo does not really discuss this and constantly switches up the gender pronouns applied to this character. Again, I don't think we should just go into different lists of how Birdo has been interpreted in later games sentence by sentence. "In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Birdo is referred to with "it" pronouns.[9] Birdo appears in the Wii Japan-only video game Captain Rainbow, which delves into Birdo's gender identity.[10] It specifically depicts her being imprisoned for entering the women's bathroom, and the player is asked to locate proof of her femininity (her vibrator) to get her out.[9] The European website for Mario Strikers Charged Football refers to Birdo as a male character,[11] while the game Mario Kart: Double Dash expresses confusion over Birdo's gender identity.[9] In the British English versions of Super Mario Party, Birdo is referred to with male pronouns." Probably try to re-phrase this whole thing as something like "Since the relase of Super Mario Bros. 2, games featuring Birdo have described the character variously as both male, female and an indeterminate sex or gender" Whatever you feel is best. There is some later Nintendo published material of Birdo being presented as female in this source noting Birdo being listed on a banner in Mario Kart 8 as " "Woman of Racing Organization" advert alongside Daisy and Peach".


@Andrzejbanas: I've addressed all of your above suggestions. If you could clarify on some of these points, I'd greatly appreciate it, since I feel some of your current suggestions are a bit unclear and I'd like clarity before implementing them into the article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to clarify on some parts you asked about @Pokelego999:. I appreciate you going in for this on the long haul. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrzejbanas apologies about the bludgeoning on the point, but I do want to make sure this information is organized correctly. How would you want these references to other interpretations referenced? Would you want it to be in the "concept and creation" section? (For example, "Birdo has also been interpreted by other authors as being an example of a gender-fluid character..."). I just want to make sure I have this right before I make edits.
But yeah, I will say, thank you for being so thorough on the article. It's very much caught a lot of things I'd have missed otherwise, and I'm glad that with your suggestions we've been able to improve Birdo up to an incredibly high-quality standard. I greatly appreciate the lengths you've been going to with this review, so again, thank you for the work and the help you've provided on this article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I just don't want you to become frustrated. :) My heart isn't set on any way of phrasing the Birdo situation as I haven't really done thorough research, but as those more academic additions I've suggested above the situation gets complicated. I think applying these key factors from the "Switch-ing Genders" journal entry might have these key points to add that summarize the view point well.
  • "Transgender scholarship on Nintendo almost always emphasize the visual presentation of the icons above all else."
and
  • "it is difficult to define characters as transgender, in large part because the localization process sometimes changes how their genders are described."
Basically, my own issue with using these citations saying Birdo is widely described as trans are on articles that are mostly listicles trying to list trans characters and as we listed above, that comes into problems as we are banking that the Mario 2 manual is "correct" and any other interpretation Nintendo has said since is "wrong". Nintendo has changed who and what their characters are, so I think we should showcase the interpretations of Birdo as trans, but we should also maybe add that other interpretations of Birdo at least being queer or gender fluid be inputted as well after the focus on trans discussion (this is more key in the reception section). But we shouldn't maybe make "trans" the default descriptor of the character in concept section shouldn't be "she is widely considered" to "she has been described as" trans or possibly combining sources, "has been predominantly described as trans, or potentially gender-fluid or queer". I'll let you read the articles above and re-think this as it's obviously a sensitive topic and we shouldn't rush to find a solution. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrzejbanas is your suggestion that you wish for me to clarify that Birdo being transgender is an interpretation by others and not Nintendo canon? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, Nintendo has been mum on the topic. I apologize if i'm not being coming across as clear. I think we are being clear that Nintendo has applied various genders and pronouns to Birdo. But we should state that the depth of the queerness and the other interpretations as well as it's become a bit less cut and dry that Birdo is trans without question as alternative ideas (as stated above) and the academic articles state that Birdo's trans quality is a bit surface level. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]