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The list in the article is too long and hard to read in paragraph form. A separate article/page should be made for this, as has been done for other groups.--Parkwells (talk) 15:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
"They are one of the tribes referred to as the Five Civilized Tribes. According to the 2000 U.S. Census, they are the largest of the 563 federally recognized Native American tribes in the United States"
This need to be looked at in the first paragraph. Who is the "They" being the largest of the 563 Federally Recognzized Tribes? There are 3 Federally Recognized Cherokee Tribes. The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, The United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians, and the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. Is this a combination of all of them? LightingBug (talk) 03:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I did not "imply" anything of the sort. Both "bands" chose their own names. If anything the bands may be in a better position politically than the CNO. I was attempting to answer the question that is caused by a confusion of terms in the article. There is a clear distinction between the CNO and the CN. These are not only political terms, they are legal terms.
According to U.S. Supreme Court precedent, a band of American Indians is a company of Indians "not necessarily, though often, of the same race or tribe, but united under the same leadership in a common design." According to the Elman Service Model, bands are relatively small patrilineally organized groups.
The U.S. Supreme Court has defined a “tribe” as a body of Indians of the same or a similar race, united under one leadership or government, and inhabiting a particular, although sometimes ill-defined, territory. According to the Elman Service Model, a tribe presents possibilities that are not present in band-level societies.
An Indian “nation” is a large tribe or group of affiliated tribes acting for the time being in concert.
The Eastern Band of the Cherokee Indians incorporated under the laws of North Carolina in 1889. They are a part of the Cherokee nation.
The U.S. Congress passed the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act (OIWA) in 1936 to restore self-governance to Indian tribes in Oklahoma. This Act provided for the reorganization of tribal governments and repealed any disability Congress had imposed from past legislation, but ONLY for tribes who reorganized under the authority of the OIWA.
The United Keetoowah Band is a federally recognized local government governing under a charter obtained through the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act. UKB is an inseparable part of the Cherokee Nation. The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma is NOT reorganized under the authority of the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act.Odestiny (talk) 04:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
There is now an article at that address, Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, not just a redirect to this article. All the material within it came from either this article (the CNO-specific information) or from two or three of the articles on Wikipedia closely related to it. Perhaps the numerous editors of this article would now be amenable to culling out those parts of this article specific to the three federally-recognized Cherokee tribes which each already have their own articles. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 23:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
As I said above, I have excised the CNO-specific material that is now part of the article Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, and I have also reorganized the article so that it has a better flow. I did leave shortened sections of some parts that are gone because they deal with issues that effect all Cherokee, not just the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I intend in upcoming days to do some more reorganization and fill in the section on the 20th century, as well as adding more info on the changes in government in the early 19th century which are almost completely lacking as of now. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 05:13, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Moved to Cherokee trail of tears, first, because it fits better there, and second, because go on and on with those giantic quotes was overemphasizing that series of events to the detriment of everything else. Being Cherokee is not all about the Trail of Tears any more than being Jewish is all about the Holocaust; there's more to both than just those events, as tragic and dominating the two were at the time. The material removed is all intact at the site I mentioned. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 18:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The material still exists on Wikipedia, it's now in a more proper place for it. The quotes were extremely long and made this article out of balance. It made the article way too much about the experiences of the Cherokee related to Indian removal to the detriment of anything else about them; the title of the article is "Cherokee", not about "Cherokee experiences during Indian removal". If that's all you think the people to whom you claim to belong are about, I pity you. Given that you were pushing the myths about the spurious "House of Moytoy" and its nonexistent relationship to the Anglo-Irish baronial family Carpenter, I question your judgement about historical accuracy. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 12:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
There are several problems with those entries. First, they are very large block quotes, not in keeping with the organization of the rest of the article. Second, having more than one quote is too much. Third, this article is about the "Cherokee", not the "Cherokee removal" or "Cherokee trail of tears". Those quotes are also by people who related their own experiences decades after the event, and in one case was not from a person from that time but his fifth generation descendant reporting what he claimed was his great-great-great grandfather's experience, not his own personal experience. The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform, not persuade, argue, or propagandize. Their inclusion in this article constitutes a NPOV violation. As for what I understand, it is that the Trail of Tears is more of an obsession with wannabes than it is with actual Cherokee, who as much as they acknowledge its place in their history realize their hisory does not start or stop there. Since the Burnette quote includes the figure for the dead of four thousand, it is necessarily in error just on that basis; the best sources, Duane King, Emmet Starr, etc., have concluded the number to be more in the vicinity of 424 who died form the start of the roundup to the arrival of the last group at Ft. Smith. The Trail of Tears is now covered adequately and more equitably than before, and the article overall more balanced. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 16:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I did make a mistake; the 424 is the official government figure for those who died; there were also 71 births, 182 disappearances, and 191 accessions according to that source. The figures Duane King, co-founder of the Eastern Band's Journal of Cherokee Studies along with Raymond Evans, gave the number 350 for the total dead, 200 of those in the camps and another 150 along the way. I did check out the CNO's website; they didn't devote near as as much proportionally to their section on the Trail of Tears as this article did before I moved it. And, I repeat, I moved it, I did not remove it. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 03:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
By the way, "some of the opinions you have expressed and statements you have made may not be so easily erased"--is that a threat? Chuck Hamilton (talk) 04:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
A. "Since the Burnette quote includes the figure for the dead of four thousand, it is necessarily in error just on that basis; the best sources, Duane King, Emmet Starr, etc., have concluded the number to be more in the vicinity of 424 who died form the start of the roundup to the arrival of the last group at Ft. Smith." i can give you several references that contradict your shockingly low number [4][5][6][7]. It goes on and on, and each one claims roughly 4000 died. So your "experts", as they are, should probably recheck their numbers.
B. I have to agree that, before you decide to change several of these Cherokee related articles, giving "because it fits better" as your explanation, you should discuss it at length in the talk page of the article that you are taking a significant chunk from.
C. While this article is about the Cherokee as a tribal entity, it doesnt warrant the removal of significant historical facts because you believe that the article should only be about the modern Cherokee tribes. The article is not named "Cherokee Tribes" or any variation of that. It is called Cherokee, and thus warrants an adequate coverage of all things within that scope. I agree, however, that it is always good to give a small summary with a redirect to the page that covers that particular event or action when nessecary.
I just wanted to throw my two sense worth into this discussion, as I plan to start working closely with Cherokee related articles again. Once more, sorry for jumping in late on this discussions. Thanks, Ono (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Federally-recognized by whom? Certainly not by the U.S. government, which is what "federally recognized" implies in United States usage. Nor, as far as I have been able to discover, by the Mexican federal government. Although the group got a letter of welcome from the governor of the state, that is not the same thing as federal recognition. They seem to be along the lines of the "Southern Cherokee Nation". I am removing it from the image until satisfactory docementation can be provided. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 00:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
No, they were recognized by the governor of the Mexican state of Coahuila, which is worth the same as recognition by states in this country. In other words, nothing. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 03:20, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Those are not real tribes, regardless of what states may say. States have no right to grant recognition that has substance; only the federal government has that power. I've had to deal with several such people the past twenty years, and they are mostly white people playing Indian. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 04:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
A resident of the Lower Towns in the southwest of the Cherokee Nation East, he became a strong advocate of Cherokee emigration westward over the Mississippi River twenty years before the Treaty of New Echota. He himself followed that path in 1822, and it was from the Cherokee Nation West in Arkansas Territory that he published his syllabary. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Although important from a legal history standpoint, it gave no relief to the Cherokee and its only substantive decision was that Samuel Worcester and Elizur Butler should be released from jail. Thier detention was the only question the case addressed. Furthermore, no Cherokee was a party to the suit; it's called Worcester v. Georgia rather than Ross v. Georgia for a reason. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to be adding perhaps a section a day or every few days, with citations, until Cherokee history in the article has the same amount of material after the beginning of the French and Indian War that it had before it. Very likely that will mean an article with a greatly increased length, in need of serious trimming. Well, that will happen too. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 04:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I see that there are several treaties listed. I have cut and pasted the entire section to a new page, cutting the length of the article significantly. Of course, we can add more info about each treaty in the coming weeks. Please offer any objections here. Thanks, Ono (talk) 06:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I reverted several changes that were made this evening by someone who has consistently refused to use the Talk page for discussion, and I will continue to do so with no further explanation after tonight, unless such discussion takes place here, per Wikipedia rules.
First, Sequoyah lived 150 years and while appropriate to an article on the Cherokee is not appropriate to a template with stats and info for the three modern Cherokee tribes. Which is the reason the flags were there in the first place, because the Cherokee did not freeze in time in 1838.
Second, Worcester v. Georgia had nothing to do with the Cherokee, except as background. They were not party to the suit. The ruling had no effect on the Cherokee Nation East. Contrary to the statement in the paragraph I removed, it is not influential, merely notable, and only then in the history of U.S. jurisprudence, not in its effect on the Cherokee. Again, the plaintiffs were two white men suing for their constitutional rights, not the Cherokee doing anything for Native American rights. The paragraph in question is certainly appropriate to the section on Cherokee removal and/or Trail of Tears, but it is not appropriate to the introduction of this article. I will continue to remove it every time it is place at the beginning of the article. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 05:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
It is obvious that we have some sort of edit war going on, and I am getting drawn into it. I have requested a full page protect until the matter has been resolved. User"204.96.6.2 continues to remove the flags of the cherokee nation in favor of pictures of a woman and sequoyah. He still hasnt given an adequate explanation to justify this. They are going to watch the page for a while to see if it persists.. Ono (talk) 13:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I've taken the step of contacting representatives of the three tribal governments--actual Cherokee government people not merely self-identified Cherokee--and they all prefer the flags, so the flags are what will remain. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 15:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Now what you are saying is that courtesy is irrelevant, and that all that matters is what Wikipedia determines by looking into its own navel. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 21:35, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
There only three Cherokee tribes, and and it's not like I've never contacted them before. In fact, I once talked to Arnold General for over two hours, another time for almost an hour. I just wanted their opinion; you are incorrect, I can post what their opinion is on this page all I want. On the article page, no, but here, yes. And, if Wikipedia chooses to replace the flags with patronizing outdated images, I can pass that all too. I have Comcast phone, so long distance costs me nothing extra.
The reason I replaced the picture of Sequoyah and the one of John Ross that were there when this started is because the Cherokee are three modern, multi-faceted legal entities, not just quaint extinct exotics. The person who replaced the flags is a unregistered user who refuses to use the Talk page. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 23:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
"It would appear you have finally caught on to that"...nice to know you're not just condescending to Native Americans. I realized that from the outset, which is why I was arguing with you. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 00:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
That isn't what I meant. You were not being clear about what you meant. What you were trying to say was something I already know, have known. That's why what you were saying made no sense. And since the point was so obvious, it was condescending of you to assume I didn't know that already. An attempt to put me on the defensive. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:28, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Why in the world would I put in the article that the three Cherokee tribes preferred the flags as opposed to the historical images? That is exactly what you're "informing" me that what the Cherokee want isn't valid implies. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I do believe that, when the History section is longer than the rest of the article combined, you know there is a problem. We don't need every detail covered in this article. I would suggest making an article named "History of the Cherokee". Then you can move the majority of the info to that, and leave a small summary that covers the basic history of the Cherokee, such as a section for Cherokee origins, pre-European contact, the 18th century, the 19th century, the 20th century and today, or something along those lines. There is no chance of this article obtaining GA status when it is so long. They tend to like short, sweet and to the point, while covering what needs to be covered. Thanks, Ono (talk) 05:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Below are references from the article that are not connected to any inline citations. Most likely some of these were used for information in the article, so if anyone can create citations connecting them to article writing, they are available here:
-Uyvsdi (talk) 18:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I initially added the "modern" famous Cherokee section since there was way too much emphasis on early history as opposed to living Cherokee people, but I see now this was a mistake. This section can be eliminated and all contemporary notable Cherokee can be listed on the articles for the tribes in which they are enrolled. That would eliminate the opportunity to add non-enrolled, quasi-Cherokee celebrities. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
When I first started editing this article, there was a substantial amount of historical material on the Cherokee up through the beginning of the Anglo-Cherokee War, a blurb on removal, and not much else history-wise. I've added material covering that war and subsequent history up through the end of the Chickamauga wars in 1794. Adding more will probably double the size of the article.
Should not the article "Cherokee" focus mostly on the three modern tribes with short summations of their common history? That way the history could be covered more extensively in s separate article. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 02:05, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Since what we're talking about doing is a revamp, I thought the tag would be appropriate. I got the idea from the Muscogee (Creek) article.
By the way, the Indigenous peoples of North America portal is dead, so there's no vehicle for rating articles like this. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 18:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
The number of small, start-up unofficial Cherokee tribal bands are above 200 in the year 2010. There was an article of the so-called Cherokee heritage groups on wikipedia, but on Oct. 2009 the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma made an official statement on they don't appreciate the majority of such tribes (deemed "fraudulent") whom either mock or misrepresent Cherokee culture, others don't have an accurate depiction of Cherokee history or tribal rituals, and a few are involved in serious criminal activities. But, the CNO welcomes all the world's Cherokee descendants whose ancestors not on the Dawes tribal roll (how to qualify for joining the CNO) to legitimately study their Cherokee heritage, and the regrets of the legal inability for them to join the tribe. Only the federal government can recognize an authentic Cherokee tribe such as the CNO, the United Keetoowah Band in Oklahoma and the Eastern Band of Cherokees in North Carolina. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 06:26, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
When I first read "Overhill Cherokee Nancy Ward, Dragging Canoe's niece" I was very confused. Maybe somebody could change that sentence. Hopefully helpful (talk) 22:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
An anonymous IP editor keeps changing the autonym, so just be explicit: Aniyvwi (ᎠᏂᏴᏫ) means: "People (they are people)." Aniyvwiya (ᎠᏂᏴᏫᏯ) means "Indian (they are real people)" (see Prentice Robinson's 1996 Cherokee Dictionary, p. 52), and Aniyvwiyaʔi (ᎠᏂᏴᏫᏯᎢ) means "Cherokee (they originate truly/they are the Principal People)." The term "Aniyunwiya" has been inserted into the article, but "un" is a folk orthography for "v", the widely accepted transliteration of the nasalized "uh" or "Ꭵ," so this word would be ᎠᏂᏴᏫᏯ or "Indian." -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
This article needs a serious re-adjustment before it should be back on the A list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.96.6.2 (talk) 19:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Information on the three Federally recognized tribal entities needs expanded (particularly coverage of the Eastern Band), general editing and organization needed. Aaron Walden
NOTE: I agree with Aaron's assessment of this article, I can add Eastern Band content. Waya sahoni 03:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC). Also added United Keetoowah Band Info and Article. Waya sahoni 09:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)UPDATE: Cherokee Nation, UKB, and Eastern Band sections broken out and expanded. Waya sahoni 09:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The article is too long. Cherokee history and Cherokee military history provide a space for specific historical information; however, after their creation an IP user greatly lengthened the general summaries of history in this article. A great deal of writing remains uncited. The "Acculturation" section should be summarized, with an useful information moved to Cherokee history. The culture section should be a broad overview with specific information moved to Cherokee society (which desperately needs a massive overhaul by someone who is not a New Ager and isn't simply plagiarizing the Cherokee Nation website). Slightly more info about the EBCI and UKB would be good, accompanied by a reduction in info about CN. "Membership controveries" is far too long; perhaps it merits its own article? The Cherokee Freeman section only pertains to the Cherokee Nation, since Cherokee Freedman have not petitioned to join the United Keetoowah Band, so this could be moved to the CN article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 01:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Was Jimi Hendrix an enrolled tribal member or was he self-identified? Odestiny (talk) 23:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Could this gentleman's nationality be changed please? Cumming was in fact Scottish and not English. To put it into context, it's a bit like describing a Cherokee as being Creek. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wee Man 68 (talk • contribs) 14:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
It is stated that Tommy Lee Jones has Cherokee ancestry from his grandmother (even stated in Wikipedia). Why not mentioning him in the list of approved Cherookees in history? (Unsigned comment above by Lil'Jaguar)
The Spanish in present-day western North Carolina encountered Mississippian culture villages, not Cherokee, so it is inappropriate to include the 16th c. history as if it were Cherokee. The Mississippians were ancestral to the Muskogean Creek and Siouan Catawba in different areas. The Cherokee later used some of the village sites, but they did not build the mounds.Parkwells (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
"In contrast, a large portion of the settlers encroaching on their territories and against whom the Cherokee (and other Indians) took most of their actions were Scots-Irish, Irish from Ulster of Scottish descent, a group which also provided the backbone for the forces of the Revolution (a famous example of a Scots-Irishman doing the reverse is Simon Girty). It is a historical irony that those from a group seen as rebels or "Whigs" back home in the Isles became Tories in the Americas while those from a group now considered one of the most "Tory" in regards to the United Kingdom became Whigs in the Americas." - This section is confusing, first of all it was mainly the Tories (the origin of the word is 'Toraidh', an Irish gaelic word meaning rebel) who supported the Stuart (Jacobite) lineage. Second the Tory and Whig labels are confusing because of the American Whig party, which is not exactly the same thing as the United Kingdom's Whig party. Lastly the statement that 'the settlers encroaching on their territories' were Scots Irish (or Ulster Scots) maybe needs some citation, and the sentence could be clarified somewhat. The historical irony part strikes me as particularly POV, particularly as you infer an entire group of people (Scots, as per section header) to be Whigs and Rebels (the Whigs were a Unionist British Parliamentary party) and the Ulster Scots to be Tories (seemingly used here as a byword for British loyalism). 86.141.212.218 (talk) 01:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I have read that the Cherokee language for example has many of the sounds that are now essential to the Southern American (English) Accent (commonly called the "Southern accent" used today by Whites and Blacks in the American South). Cousins of the Cherokee from the other Five Civilized Tribes are also believed to have influenced this non-indian accent.
Remember that during the early times of European settlement in the American South that Native American tribes were equal or superior in influence to European settlers (with lots of intermarriage) and thus may have helped to shape early Southern American dialect and pronunciation.
Later on the massive influx of West African slaves may had added another layer of influence to various Southern American accents especially since "house slaves" (as opposed to slaves who worked in the fields) played a major role in raising white children. This may have also allowed West African languages to influence Southern American pronunciation and even the use of some words and grammar.
This is not to discount the European influences on the formation of various Southern American dialects, but neither should these non-European influences be left out.
98.245.150.162 (talk) 23:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
You have to look at the early stages of European settlement when the Native American population was larger than the European--
Also (especially in the South) there was a great deal of intermarriage between early Scottish settlers and Native Americans that went on for generations.
Before Europeans began to outnumber Native Americans, the relations between Whites and Native peoples were completely different, and although sometimes hostile were usually actually very close relationships.
Later when Whites began to outnumber Indians is when the sustained trouble began.
But by then the Southern American accent had become established (with Native American influences) and new European settlers would assimilate into it.
98.245.150.162 (talk) 23:25, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I know that citations are needed. But you have to mention the issue before citations can be hunted down (I don't have time to do it all myself).
Sorry about posting on the top of the talk page, I forgot about that rule.
Best,
98.245.150.162 (talk) 20:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
P.P.S. I'll do some of the search for citations too, but the "Five Civilized Tribes" (all originally Southeastern Native American tribes, since forcibly relocated to Oklahoma) are the tribes thought to be early influenceers of the Southern American accent.
These tribes are all related to each other and include the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek (also called Muskogee), Chikisaw and Seminole.
98.245.150.162 (talk) 20:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is a quote from one source (again keep in mind that [for about three generations] there was a lot of mixing between Scotts-Irish settlers in the American South and Southern Native Americans, and it was only later that the most serious troubles began once whites started to outnumber Native Americans, but by then the local English accent had been influenced):
"The "Scots-Irish" dialect of southern English mingled with Cherokee and other Native American languages in a band running from western North Carolina to Oklahoma and East Texas, giving rise to the so-called backwoods, or highlands, southern dialect, which is faster and [more] high-pitched than tidewater southern and more nasal than Appalachian English. Some of the phonological features of the backwoods southern dialects undoubtedly come from Cherokee and other Native American languages. The south was the only area in the East where Native Americans mixed significantly with the whites. This occurred mostly with the poorer whites on the frontier. Substrate features include: nasality, tensing of vowels [e] instead of [E] rather than diphthongization as in Tidewater Southern English."
Here is the source (it's from a college course on linguistics, http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test3materials/AmericanDialects.htm ) obviously not usable for Wikipedia by itself, but it shows that there is University-level linguistics research behind this view.
98.245.150.162 (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I suggest to jump on the link to the Circassian beauty talk page, but this is more on the lines of WP:OR with further reading on the subject on Circassian beauties married wealthy white American men in the 19th century. I began to feel the myth on the Cherokee princess was actually a person who makes the claim are possibly descendants from a "Circassian beauty". It traces to another myth on Circassian beauties, who were "harem girls" of the Middle East under the Ottoman Empire, not American Indians and how the Cherkess is mistakenly called "Cherokee" to mean something else. The beauties are Circassians or Cherkess people from the Caucasus mountains, captured by the Ottomans or Russians during the Circassian war of the 1850's and somewhat put into the slave trade in Turkey or Arabia, then bought as slaves by Europeans in North or West Africa, for these women to be sent to America and finally bought by male slave owners to be married & to bear children with. [1] They are a very small number to begin with or were mistaken as "Asian" or "African" peoples, despite the evident ethnic origins of the Circassian/Cherkess population are Central Asian. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 14:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I just watched a video about Cherokee people and noticed they pronounced Cherokee like "Churkey" (rhymes with turkey). Could a pronunciation note be added to the article (IPA), as it is with most non-English names? (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigur_Rós) I'm sure that's a valuable piece of information for many people. 77.57.213.194 (talk) 10:48, 26 September 2010 (UTC) (lKj)
The introduction and the "Early culture" section sound a little repetitive in the way they describe the Cherokee's migration to the South. I wonder if there is a better way to rephrase the idea.
In the "Trail of Tears" section, the passage "In 1827, Sequoyah led a delegation of Old Settlers to Washington, D.C. to negotiate for the exchange of Arkansas land for land in Indian Territory." is out of time with respect to the previous section that talks about 1839. This should be fixed.
I would be interested to read more about the Constitutions of the Cherokee nations. I believe it would be a good idea to create an article for that a link it to the "Government" section.
ICE77 (talk) 21:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Linguistic analysis shows a relatively large difference between Cherokee and the northern Iroquoian languages. Scholars posit a split between the groups in the distant past, perhaps 3500–3800 years ago.[...] Glottochronology studies suggest the split occurred between about 1,500 and 1,800 BCE.[...]
That's a bit redundant, isn't it? "3500–3800 years ago" and "between about 1,500 and 1,800 BCE" is usually taken to refer to exactly the same period. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Same goes to Californio bandit Joaquin Murieta except he has grandparents whose genealogical roots are in Florida (then under Spanish rule) migrated to Chile in the mid 1700's and intermarried with the local population of Spanish origins. Murieta arrived in Hermosillo, Sonora in Mexico in the 1830s in part of his land ownership in Mexican California before the gold rush and the US annexation occurred in 1848 and 1850 respectively. Murieta searched far and wide for his Cherokee Indian roots whom had scattered southward to flee the approaching American settlement in the turn of the 19th century. Even Chiriqui, Panama; and Chile is said to be inhabited by different peoples of "possible" Iroquoian genetic ancestry, perhaps from an ancient migration of nomadic tribes in the Americas had boat ride the shores of the Caribbean sea and Pacific coasts, might resulted in strangely similar name-sounding places "Chiriqui" and "Chile" (Chil-ro-que?), but these tribes were conquered by the Maya, Chibcha and Incas over the course of time. + 71.102.11.193 (talk) 22:50, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
What was written here is a myth, a theory and most of all, the tendency among South American nations to explore their ethnocultural origins. Chileans and Argentines had studied tall tales of their peoples are descendants of Visigoths whom settled northern Spain in the European dark ages, but failed to understand why the Gothic not the Latin element, was never dominant in Castilian or Spanish ethnography. The North Americans in Chile article discussed Anglo-American settlement in the Southern cone of South America, while the main indigenous populations of Chile or Argentina were the Mapuche cannot be identified to have Iroquoian genes and too far removed from any ethnological relationship with Siouan languages. Mike D 26 (talk) 22:34, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Why does both this article and Navajo people claim the title of largest federally recognized tribe? It has to be one or the other, correct? Onopearls (t/c) 05:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Dougweller (talk) 09:07, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Cherokee Nation: What is a real Indian Nation? What is a fake tribe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp7Z4eiEuaw
The old but evergrowing problem of fake unrecognized Cherokee tribes have made the CNO produce a video on YT to send a message they don't appreciate non-Cherokees invent fraudulent tribes without a claim of authenticity and have misrepresented real Cherokee culture. + Mike D 26 (talk) 09:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Doesn't that picture seem to be a misrepresentation of the Cherokee people? Most of those people are mixed at best. The girl at bottom left and the guy at top left look 100% European. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.14.2.23 (talk) 03:19, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Cherokees who live farther north towards Canada were escapees of the "trail of tears" forced marches, and they sought refuge under the British Canadian customs checkpoints. There isn't an exact statistical count of Canadians of Cherokee ancestry, but are thought to be over 100,000. Like Mexico and South America (i.e. Chile), there was speculation of Cherokee descendants in Canada with the US state of Michigan across the Great Lakes or Detroit river separating Detroit and Windsor, Ontario. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 06:42, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
There is plenty of information, numerous stories and folklore on persons of the Blackfoot-Cherokee admixture of the two tribes whom lived in opposite ends of the country (USA with the Blackfoot partially located in Canada). Either the Blackfoot moved into the Southeastern USA from the Upper Plains or the Cherokee moved farther west or northward, it is known the Blackfoot Cherokee are a chapter in the story of two tribal nations when they supposedly met in the late 18th or 19th century. 71.102.13.174 (talk) 19:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm failing to see how certain wikipedians are so authoritative that all they have to do is assert that something they don't like and don't want mentioned is a "fringe theory", and presto, it automatically becomes a "fringe theory", despite the fact that it's hard to find any scholarly book about the Cherokee that DOESN'T call this a "Cherokee legend", and it's apparently impossible to find any source (other than these same wikipedians) disputing that it is a Cherokee legend. Just how many scholarly sources would it take to convince you? Well since you are no doubt right, it means that no matter how many scholarly sources I come up with, they are all wrong because you know better than anyone else, right? So in other words there is no source anywhere that could convince you. Do you really want to go through this process again or can we please get mediation? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:49, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Why should this be here at all? A sampling of similar pages shows that this normally isn't included. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Why is this conversation happening on this article? It's not included in the article, and is just a "see also" link, which seems perfectly acceptable. Bartram's mention of the Moon-Eyed people links it to Cherokee people.—Uyvsdi (talk) 22:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
The mustached fellow in the centre of the bottom row is listed as William Penn, linked to the article for the famous Quaker. Given that he died over a century before modern photography, had no Cherokee blood, and looked nothing like that, I'm going to guess it's a different man with the same name? If I had any idea who he was I'd fix the link, but unfortunately I do not. 76.118.92.242 (talk) 14:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Not the first time I came across web sites claimed to uncover the real origins of the Cherokee. This one states the Cherokee might descended from Indians from India, Phoenicians and biblical Hebrews. http://chickamauga-cherokee.com/phoenicians.html The Cherokee are thought to been descendants of ancient aliens, "Atlanteans" from Atlantis, Solutreans or pre-Roman Europeans, east Asians via Mexico after landing in the Pacific coast and west Africans (the Moors from around Morocco, Mauritania and Senegeal). 71.102.1.95 (talk) 13:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I thought the largest Cherokee population by ethnicity or ancestry was in California, unless the article strictly wants to be relevant in tribal membership of the 3 federally recognized tribes of the Cherokee people. An estimated 600,000 to a million Californians could be or have Cherokee origins, the so-called "Cherokee American" to denote a people with a nationality attached to their self-hyphenated term. 71.102.21.238 (talk) 15:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Eight "Cherokee Communities" associations in CA with an additional two in Oregon are arms of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. http://www.cherokee.org/Organizations/Communities/California.aspx Cherokee Communities are found in CA's largest cities and metro areas. 71.102.1.95 (talk) 14:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I recall a wiki article on them (was since deleted) on the Cherokee Nation of Mexico, but was it verified before on their existence? Here's a web site of them http://cherokeediscovery.com/ Someone examine them closely and any connections they have with the CNO in the USA. Unless the "discovery" was a downright fraud of some kind, I have no information really on a declaration of the CNM are "fake" Indians. 71.102.1.101 (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
If anyone wants to take on this project, a good approach might be like the Texas Cherokees article, where the focus is the historical settlement of in Cherokees in Mexico. Several northern Mexican states did provide land grants to Cherokees in the early 19th century and Emmet Starr mentions their land claims. Sequoyah did actually die on the quest to encourage the Mexican Cherokees to reunite with the main group in Indian Territory. (The history I've read doesn't jibe with what's written on the CNM website at all). From their website, no one from the Cherokee Nation of Mexico actually seems to be from Mexico, so they could just be briefly mentioned at the end of the article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Once a red link of "Cherokee Mexican American" was on Wikipedia, which was removed because no article was ever written. I'm not surprised there are Mexican-Americans claiming Cherokee descent, such as Selena is a Texan of some Cherokee roots. The subject can be examined before anyone can propose an article on the given subject. 71.102.1.95 (talk) 21:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
All cherokee did not shave their head that was particular a symbol worn by warriors. The Cherokee had long hair down to the ground .The longhair clan took pride in their hair.The cherokee were also dark brown , tan, and olive complexion , the statement on the cherokee page is bias and was recorded among a group of cherokee not all.According to the spanish meeting the cherokee in 1540 they claim we were from negro black to fair complexion all different shades. They also mentioned we looked more middle eastern or east indian.John haywood an amerixan painter in 1800s depicted us with brown , tan ,& olive complexions. To bring it to a hault i would like to say the added description listed on the cherokee wiki would be misleading to our people learning their history or someone from china doing research......cherokee pride our history culture family is all we have left..we need our history to be accurate — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
my relieable source are from the cherokee nation page timeline which states year 1540 http://centralca.cherokee.org/Cherokee-Timeline — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talk • contribs) 16:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
http://centralca.cherokee.org/Cherokee-Timeline
the first Europeans who encountered the Cherokee were Spaniards their description is skin color ranges from negro black to fair ...this is located on the offical cherokee nations page circa 1540 a.d
here is also another reference this is factual history this description can be found every where. http://wsharing.com/WScherokeeTimeline.htm[1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
The statement on the cherokee page is false, as a cherokee member i know my history and the statement clearly states the aniyunwiya/cherokee were just olive, we were tan , dark brown , olive, and lighter. It also falsely claims that all cherokee shaved their heads accept one lock of hair ,Thats false ; the cherokee seen hair as scared especially among the long hair clan which wore their hair down their backs with my different hair styles. Shaving the head and leaving a patch was found among warriors who were freely to do whatever the wanted with their hair this shaving your head thing was not mandortory it was a choice of style. They were also 30 to 50 different cherokee villages and henry timberlake only visited one. heres actual history about the clans on the NCcherokee clans. [8] Historicfuture12 (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
You must have not read the Cherokee NC page which is a primary source which states the Cherokee clans, and proves that Cherokee did not all shave their heads as you see the long hair clan took pride in the hair ...Yes Henry Timberlake's observation is false as he claims (the Cherokee) meaning all shave their heads leaving a patch left. He did not say some Cherokee he said all as well as he said they are olive and middle statue, if you see from Pardo and Moyano Spanish expedition they claim the Cherokee range in many different hues you can also see from famous English-American painter George Catlin which depicts the Cherokee many different shades. I'm floored that you mentioned a primary source isn't valid, that's not a good scholarship or analyses. In any research a " primary source " is the best evidence and you are discrediting facts from the owners of our own history, as im now concerned Wikipedia is not a reliable source which i thought it was. I will definitely make sure I let many people know of the falsehood of many wiki editors as this situation is unacceptable as you can bare witness to the flaws of the statement also with (primary evidence which is a scholars best find) you would know this is you went to a university and you still are debating what is a reference or not. Historicfuture12 (talk) 20:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Aside from the template for block quotes discussion the quote in the Lead is too long, as the Lead is supposed to cover a larger scope of content. That belongs in the body of the article together with other appropriate chronological material.Parkwells (talk) 17:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Ignoring the obvious copyright violation, [4] the source flatly says the theory was rejected. Per WP:FRINGE, it has little place in the article. --NeilN talk to me 20:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
it says the theory was rejected because of the Iroquoian theory. as you see i said theory and if it is not such a theory then why is there more then one listed. the same people who believes in the iroquoin theory rejects the theory that we have always been in the the southeast and the same goes for the theory from john haywood that was rejected. the major thing here is to show the varies theories of origin. They are more then 1 ..and as i say again just because it says rejected does not mean all cherokee and others rejects it ,many rejected the iroquoan theory but its still valid in history.Historicfuture12 (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I am a Cherokee scholar and studied my culture & history since birth being raised in a Cherokee home i always had a sense of self I begin my journey on my major studies for over 15 years now and i have seen many anthropologist and scholars come up with many theories that inst listed such as migrating from mexico, coming from Atlantis, south America, etc. they are many scholars and anthropologist who also say south and north Asians along with north Africans moors came to ancient America. many Cherokees subscribe to John Haywood's theory also with their own studies what ever they believe to be accurate, I have heard many outlandish ones my self, the thing is John Haywoods theory and study is documented history and holds its place in theory as i say again ( any where in history or modern times if you believe in one theory you reject all others. Yes I said his info was rejected as the others listed on the Cherokee page have been rejected by the next scholar who does his advanced studies. all Cherokee theories have been rejected Historicfuture12 (talk) 21:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I understand you need a source instead of my own scholarship, but i can show you a post of anthropologist and scholars saying the cherokee migrated from from mexico, so i guess i will post that then...But what im trying to get to you is that all theories of our origin are rejected in order to believe another. You and others are quick to cling on the fact it says it is it was rejected ,even the ones on the page is rejected as well so rejection does not mean its a theory. Juts as Einstein had theories not complete 100 percent fact.Historicfuture12 (talk) 21:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
show me all these scholars who believe the theories present on the page. (especially that we lived in the great lakes region) man ycherokee dont believe that. show me all these scholars expects for james mooney hes the only one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
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66.74.176.59 (talk) 14:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
The image for the Cherokee Nation flag immediately under "Modern Cherokee Tribes" contains an error in the syllabary. As a language-speaker from Tahlequah pointed out to me, "the syllabary says Tsa-ta-gi-hi A-ye-tla (ᏣᏔᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᏝ -- error) instead of Tsa-la-gi-hi A-ye-li (ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ -- correct)." Consultation of the official Cherokee Nation website confirms this error. This image routinely comes up as the first "hit" for the flag on Google image searches and thus disseminates incorrect representations of Cherokee Nation sovereignty. Recommend removing this image until a correct one can be substituted, either from an open source file or by requesting that image compilers Aaron Walden and jdcollins13 re-compile a correct version of the flag. This applies to the flag and seal on the "Cherokee Nation" page as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.229.215 (talk) 16:46, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
The original sign for the Tzalagi was the Coiled Asp. Within a consideration of sociological & cultural contexts, it's simple to actually discern that the Cherokee Tribe got slandered terribly during the arrival of what are now referenced the invaders' descendants, or Americans. What is currently referenced as the State of Oklahoma was land apportioned to Tribes of various particular cultures & heritages, & in 1889 the invaders' descendants initiated the Land Run. Separately distinct the context, within the book titled "Myths & Traditions of the Cherokee", it's suggested that the Cherokee had a inter-tribal war, & various of the Tribe separated of their cousins. Truly, there's not a single American Tribe that's actually "Indian", not at all. The invaders' descendants referenced Northern Mayan Tribes were "Indian" of the fact that upon the first arrival of the invaders' descendants, they were lost & thought the land they had arrived to was actually "India". These various historical detriments as well have detrimented global cultural contexts. It's like the Northern Mayans suggest, "Oh well, Gaians. Oh well." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsunalugi (talk • contribs) 03:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
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Citation 55 leads to a Goodreads.com list of "Books by Alex W. Bealer." While it appears Bealer has written on the subject, no specific book is cited, nor does this webpage give information about the content of his research or writing, and thus it cannot support the information attributed to it in the article. This is the Goodreads page linked to: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/225917.Alex_W_Bealer
Semantic point: the introductory section lists modern-day states in describing Cherokee territory. This chronological incompatibility should be made explicit (e.g. "...including modern-day Alabama") to prevent a teleological (mis)telling of history. Edultz (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
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Hi - Apologies for putting this on this page, but I am asking for people knowledgeable about Cherokee citizenship and tribal law to weigh in on a discussion of certain Cherokee categories. I'm not asking you to support my proposal, but just for the discussion to have informed contributions. The discussion is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_March_30#Category:Cherokee_people Vizjim (talk) 10:49, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I am working on an update to this page within the fifth section titled "Culture." I am planning on adding a paragraph about gender and sexuality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwandsmu (talk • contribs) 07:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I found literature that shows the effects of white colonial agents on Cherokee gender roles. Specifically the redefining of women's roles in the domestic and public spaces during the the time period of (1776-1835). I think it would be a welcomed addition to the page.Jwash212 (talk) 17:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm adding a section on the redefinition of gender roles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jwash212 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Now about 1.5 million Americans claim Cherokee descent, they are the largest Native American tribal group if you go by the total number of overall ancestry. Up to 600,000 live in California (around 200,000 tribal members in the southern half of the state), 350,000 in Oklahoma where the Cherokee Nation is located and 25,000 in their Indian reservation in western North Carolina. The rest (500-550,000) reside in all 50 states whether or not they are members of the 3 federally recognized tribes. 2605:E000:FDCA:4200:1FA:3A88:955:CACC (talk) 00:47, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
States where Cherokee tribes and communities exist, including more Cherokee residents in the US west coast.
|popplace = United States
(South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, California, Alabama, Missouri, Kansas and Georgia).
2605:E000:FDCA:4200:D962:2182:F3EB:EEB3 (talk) 01:21, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I also want to address the original homeland of the Cherokee in the Southern Appalachians extended into eastern Kentucky, southern Virginia, parts of West Virginia and northern Mississippi, as well the Trail of Tears crossed southern ends of Indiana and Illinois along the Ohio River. And many Cherokee from Oklahoma were farm migrant laborers in the mid 20th century, they would go to Louisiana, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Oregon and Washington state depending on harvest seasons. The Cherokee are found in all 50 states and Washington DC, but to keep it simple, the article's current template's listing of five states with the most Cherokee are kept as it is. 2605:E000:FDCA:4200:24F3:157C:31F4:1568 (talk) 11:00, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Imagine this: the Cherokee in federally recognized tribes are big as the population of Iceland, ethnic group representation as big as the population of Estonia, and the total number of descendants in the diaspora as big as the population of Slovenia. 98.150.68.110 (talk) 03:24, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
References
An article on the high number of Americans not enrolled in the 3 federally recognized Cherokee Nations claimed Cherokee descent, not only in Eastern Oklahoma and the Great Smoky Mountains region of the Southern US, also in cities like New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Toronto, and across the entire USA or throughout North America. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/10/cherokee_blood_why_do_so_many_americans_believe_they_have_cherokee_ancestry.html 67.49.89.214 (talk) 01:41, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
And another link, this one from Time.com (Time Magazine). http://time.com/4089303/cherokee-ancestry/ 67.49.89.214 (talk) 03:17, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Over 100,000 (tribal members?) up to 200,000 Cherokee in North Carolina, including some Lumbee, Powatan, Saponi and Tuscarora may have Cherokee ancestry, but they live in the central and east parts of the state while the Cherokee are further west. 12.218.47.123 (talk) 17:01, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
About half of tribal Cherokee in 2020 are in OK and neighbor states, around 40% in the rest of the US, and at 10% in the southern states where the tribe were originally from. The number of Cherokee grew from 30-70,000 a century ago to 880,000 in 2000 to slightly drop to 820,000 a decade later in 2010. We will find and update the number of tribal Cherokee by 2020 US census statistics next year. Adinneli (talk) 21:15, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Since this could be perceived as trolling/pushing POV I just wanted to something here as I move forward with edits. There is a fascinating aspect regarding not only the Cherokee (spurred by The Heartbeat of Wounded Knee by David Treuer) but numerous Native American tribes and how they processed and sometimes enslaved those they captured in battle. Perhaps it will give a temperature of the times and inform us the survival instinct required by any given tribe (the Cherokee in this instance).
There are a couple pages that I'll link, which addresses the subject as a whole: Slavery among Native Americans in the United States and Slavery among the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
Here's some existing text in the page I would move into this section:
The Cherokee were among the Native American peoples who sold the traders Indian slaves for use as laborers in Virginia and further north. They took them as captives in raids on enemy tribes.[31]
Anotherpinkfloydinthewall (talk) 21:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm actually seeing a section from Cherokee Freedmen Controversy#Slavery among the Cherokee that should just be ported over--in its entirety--to this page. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall (talk) 22:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Ported over the slavery section from the Freedman page. This got chopped in the mix and I may add it back into its original location:
The Cherokee were among the Native American peoples who sold the traders Indian slaves for use as laborers in Virginia and further north. They took them as captives in raids on enemy tribes.[1]
Anotherpinkfloydinthewall (talk) 18:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
References
On July 9, 2020, the SCOTUS decided half of Oklahoma made up of tribal nations is officially Native American land and this is important to mention in the article about the Oklahoma Cherokee. [1]