The origin of the singer[edit]

Eden was born in Israel, moved to Russia and returned to Israel. In my opinion, it should be written that she is Israeli and not Russian-Israeli. If we also refer to Eden's words, she considers herself Israeli and nothing else. KatzeChat (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She was born in Israel and she was also partly raised in Israel and she has an Israeli passport.
Many Israelis parents aren't from Israel but nobody is writing that we are from Poland or Germany or Romania or Iraq or Iran or North Africa.
Also her parents are from Latvia and Ukraine not from Russia. 2A0E:427:1CA7:0:4570:D2CE:E849:6D76 (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Artist's Nationality[edit]

If someone temporarily relocating to other country, and studying in an International school, does it give him/her another nationality although she/he has no connection to the country except temporarily living there for 5 years without citizenship? אלעד נעמתי (talk) 13:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@אלעד נעמתי: The issue here is you are not being truthful to the description of Golan's situation. Regardless of how long Golan resided in Russia (your claim that it was just five years is also untrue, as the article itself says she lived there for 13 years), her education, or her citizenship, Golan began her career by participating in Russian television programs, attempted to represent Russia in an international event, and did not relocate to Israel until 7 years after beginning her professional music career (in Russia). Per WP:MOS/LEAD, the lead should reference the "context" of the subject of the article, but this is not defined by simple citizenship or anything of the like, and Golan's Russian background is clearly relevant as it was the central location of her career up until 2022. To provide an example, Rina Sawayama mentions both Japanese and British nationalities in the lede as she holds solely Japanese citizenship but has a career based in the United Kingdom, and both nationalities were equally relevant to her context as an individual regardless of her citizenship status. All this points to Golan being properly cited as a Russian-Israeli individual. To me, the reluctance to identify Golan as Russian purely stems from her birth in Israel and the fact she is representing Israel at an event, but that does not outweigh the evidence pointing to Russian-Israeli being the proper identifier. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 02:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can't decide she's Russian if she didn't say she is. you don't know her Zapmufins (talk) 04:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jjj1238 is correct. Citizenship has nothing to do with this. She started her career as a Russian singer in Russia, representing Russia at music competitions. She spent most of her childhood in Russia (the country both her parents hailed from as well) and just recently moved to Israel, after a years-long career as a singer in Russia. She is clearly Russian-Israeli, not just Israeli. --Tataral (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you say that Eden Golan is Russian why do you write that Bryan Adams is Canadian.
He lived most of his youth outside of Canada just like Eden, due to his parents career. 2A0E:427:1CA7:0:4570:D2CE:E849:6D76 (talk) 16:05, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete her origin[edit]

Her origin can't be Russian if she was born in israel and the descents of her parents are not Russian Zapmufins (talk) 04:18, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zapmufins The article is sufficiently clear that her career began while she was living in Moscow. In that regard, her origin—where she started her career—is Russia. —C.Fred (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is not the meaning of origin, this is not where she's from Zapmufins (talk) 07:42, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
and yeah those details about where she started her career are clear so why lie that that's where she also originates from as a person Zapmufins (talk) 07:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per Template:Infobox musical artist, The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth). Moscow is accurate. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
a career ? It’s just a singing competition. No body knew her and this is not what origin means, should people guess what it means? And once again someone charged her nationality to Russian israel even though she’s not Russian. It’s really funny the vandalizers locked this page Zapmufins (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both her parents are originally from the Soviet Union, who also chose to return to their native Russia with their children when she was very young. She grew up mostly in Russia and she was active as a Russian singer for many years, also representing Russia at music competitions, before moving to Israel only two years ago. If anything, she is far more Russian than Israeli, but Russian-Israeli seems like a fair compromise. --Tataral (talk) 21:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You’re going to be reported as a crazy Russian nationalist. She’s not Russian 83.130.42.7 (talk) 02:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please focus on the content, not the contributors. Solid reasons, backed up in Wikipedia policies and guidelines, have been given for why Golan should be identified as Russian or part-Russian. —C.Fred (talk) 13:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Her father is from Latvia and her mother is from Ukraine. Neither are part of Russia, yes they were part of its predecessor state, the Soviet Union, but that was before she was born. It's unclear whether her parents held Russian citizenship. To me the most relevant factor is if she holds Russian citizenship. RM (Be my friend) 18:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is not accurate. Her grandfather Yuri lived and worked in Moscow during the Cold War. It seems evident that at least one of her parents would have lived (been born, grown up) there too. Sources mention family roots in what is now the sovereign states of Latvia and Ukraine, but that was long before she was born. Both were part of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, and part of the Soviet Union when her family emigrated from the Soviet Union to Israel. Russia considers itself as the successor state of the Soviet Union. Perhaps she has some great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents from Latvia and Ukraine in what was then the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, but that doesn't change anything. Her parents chose to return to Moscow, Russia, not Latvia. She spent 13 years, most of her childhood in Moscow, Russia, not Latvia. For all practical purposes she is a Russian singer who moved to Israel two years ago and who has just gotten noticed as a singer in Israel, after a years-long career in Russia. --Tataral (talk) 14:46, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this interview in Hewbrew Golan claims that she did feel russian while living in russia... (I user Google Translate to read the interview). So that Wikipedia now claims she is fully russsian-Israeli when we have no idea if she or her parents ever had russian passports is truly not correctly following Wikipedia guidelines. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just changed the lead to "Israeli singer who grew up in Russia" since we are now only truly sure of that. Hopefully future interviews will share more light on her early life and nationally. Although she is more likely to be questioned about the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your conclusion RM. But that her father was born in what is now independent Latvia and her mother was born in what is now independent Ukraine tells me nothing.... Her parents were born when both Latvia and Ukraine were part of the Soviet Union and it is very possible they referred to themselves as Soviet Jews or russian Jews as at the time of their youth that was common. They might still refer to themselves as Soviet Jews or russian Jews today... Here parents might felt that they were Soviet people who very likely never had Latvian citizenship nor Ukrainian citizens and if her mother had some sympathy for Ukrainian nationalism she probably would have prevented her daughter to perform in 2016 in illegal russian occupied (Ukrainian territory) Crimea. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:04, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is absolutely no evidence that her parents were born in Latvia or Ukraine (then-Soviet Union). Considering how her grandfather Yuri studied, worked and lived in Moscow, it seems highly unrealistic. At least one of her parents must have had a connection to Moscow, likely being born or at least raised there. Her parents also chose to return to Moscow in the 2000s. --Tataral (talk) 14:52, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that there are no sources confirming the origin of her parents (I'm not sure how Latvian-Jewish and Ukrainian-Jewish made its way in there, I am removing it now), a grandfather working and living in Moscow during the time of the Soviet Union would not be out of the ordinary for someone from one of the other Soviet republics. It was still one country after all, and many people (especially Jews) from other republics were Russian-speaking on either a native or L2 basis. Also regardless of her parents' place of birth, their origins could have still come from Latvia/Ukraine. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 15:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change origin[edit]

Why does it say Russian if her parents are not Russian? I didn’t know living in Russia for a few years will make you Russian. She was born in Israel, she’s an Israeli citizen, and she feels Israeli. She’s an Israeli singer, not Russian. 2600:1700:400D:F400:D8C1:72D7:8A2E:690A (talk) 16:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She began her career in Moscow, per Template:Infobox musical artist, origin is for "The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth)." Her origin is Moscow. Your claim that her parents "are not Russian" is also misleading at best as both are from the former USSR and her grandfather lived and worked in Moscow. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 16:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That’s ridiculous. Eden is an Israeli, wherever she started her career doesn’t change her ethnicity. Just like Rihanna isn’t an American though she started her career in the US. She Barbadian.
Her parents are Ukrainian and Latvian. People from the former USSR are not necessarily Russian. Even the Russian page states she’s an Israeli singer. You are very bias. 2600:1700:400D:F400:D8C1:72D7:8A2E:690A (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I am Barak. Most of my edits are in the Hebrew Wikipedia. Golan's mother called me. She told me that her daughter, Eden, was born and raised as an Israeli. She is not Russian. Her parents are Russian, but she isn’t. Barak a (talk) 15:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid we can't use off-wiki information as confirmation, but I'll wait for others more in-the-know than me in terms of the guidance on what terminology to use in the lede. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 18:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
She was born in Israel! Her parents are from Ukraine and Latvia! There is no Russia here, although she lived in Moscow. Barak a (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barak a: This is not the Hebrew Wikipedia. Here, per WP:V, All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material..

@Ser!: Per Gil Mishali's (he) article on Keshet Media Group's Mako (website), Golan's parents are of Ukrainian and Latvian origin.[1]

CLalgo, So give me a proof that she is Russian. You wrote that her parents are from Ukraine and Latvia. There is no Russian roots in her family. Barak a (talk) 15:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barak a: I didn't claim Golan is Russian and under no obligation to provide proof of that. You've claimed that Golan's parents are from Ukraine and Latvia and I've provided an article stating this fact, following WP:V. Unlike the Hebrew Wikipedia, here every statement must be verifiable. And no, WP:BECAUSEISAIDSO isn't a reliable source. I was on your side in this discussion, but please follow the WP:TALK guidelines. CLalgo (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CLalgo, here is your source: 1. In this article Eden claims that she is not Russian, and she is a proud Israeli woman. Now, you can change this article. "I'm not Russian and not part of them, I'm an Israeli". Barak a (talk) 16:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I provided the source in order to build Consensus for such an edit. CLalgo (talk) 09:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I read that article, sadly I don't speak Hebrew so it was machine translated. I couldn't find the sentence that says "I'm not Russian and not part of them, I'm an Israeli". The closest I could find was:
חלק כותבים שאני לא ישראלית מספיק, שאני רוסייה וכל מיני דברים כאלה, אבל אני הכי ישראלית שיש.
Which google translate turned into:
Some write that I'm not Israeli enough, that I'm Russian and all kinds of things like that, but I'm the most Israeli there is.
Which doesn't necessarily disprove what was written. Could you give the exact quote in the original language, since machine translations aren't always the best.
Speederzzz (talk) 09:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Speederzzz: The Hebrew quote is:

"אפילו עם השם שלי תמיד הייתה לאנשים בעיה. זה השם הכי ישראלי. אולי אם היו קוראים לי מאשה היו מתייחסים אלי אחרת, אבל תמיד היה את הקטע הזה שאני 'עדן גולן', אני לא רוסייה ואני לא חלק מהם, אני ישראלית. הייתי זרה שם. האנטישמיות הגבירה את החשק לחזור לישראל".

That machine translates to:

"Even with my name, people always had a problem. It's the most Israeli name. Maybe if they called me Masha they would treat me differently, but there was always this part that I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli. I was It's foreign there. Anti-Semitism increased the desire to return to Israel."

CLalgo (talk) 10:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks!
Speederzzz (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks CLalgo. Now, we can change it? I don't know the rules in the English Wikipedia. Barak a (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, none of this is relevant. Her career began in Russia, she attempted to represent Russia at an international event, she lived in Russia for the majority of her life, that is the basis of inclusion, not a comment saying she identifies as Israeli in the aftermath of being chosen to represent Israel at an international event. Nobody is calling her a "Russian singer," but she should not be called an "Israeli singer" either --- she is both. I am sensing a lot of nationalist editing which does not adhere to Wikipedia's policy that all editors maintain a neutral point of view. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 21:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you. I think that we should write the article like this: Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia. Just like you said, she is not Russian, she just started her career there. And just for your knowledge, the article I shared above was written before she won the israeli selection. Barak a (talk) 21:57, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also said she is not Israeli, she is Russian-Israeli. The current layout correctly articulates the situation and is in line with Wikipedia policies. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 21:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jjj1238, But she said by herself that she is not Russian (before ahe even selected to represent Israel in the Eurovision Song Contect 2024). You can't write that she is Russian. I think that what I suggested is an adequate solution for this issue. In this talk page only you disagree. @CLalgo and @Speederzzz agree with me. Barak a (talk) 22:03, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion was not just initiated on March 3. Scroll up on the talk page and you will see it has been discussed two other times and both times ended with the status quo remaining. It is a similar situation as Rina Sawayama, choosing to erase Golan's Russian background conflicts with anti-nationalist editing guidelines which including promoting ideas that "Famous person is or is not a member of group." From my perspective, it appears that several users are attempting to erase Golan's Russian background because of Israeli nationalist sentiments. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jjj1238, You are very funny! scroll up and see what I wrote again: Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia. I am not erasing her backgroung in Russia, so stop accuse me on nationalist editing. I want to find a compromise between us.Your example about Rina is not good. Her parents are Jappanese. Goln's parents are Ukrainian-Latvian. Barak a (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are erasing her background as a Russian-Israeli musician. "Russian-Israeli" is already a compromise, it highlights the two facets of her identity: where she began her career and lived for 12 years, versus where she lives now and has continued her career. Your proposal minimizes her connection to Russia when her connection to Israel was no more than a country of birth prior to just 2 years ago (and 7 years into her professional music career). This would be a different story if the bulk of her music career took place in Israel, but it did not, she has been based in Russia for the large majority of her career (and her life) and your proposal minimizes that. You also misinterpret the Rina Sawayama comparison: both artists were born somewhere (Japan or Israel) and then had their music careers largely based elsewhere for the bulk of their careers (UK or Russia) while maintaining citizenship of their birth country. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia - What is wrong with this? It seems you are involving politics and your agendas about Israel to Wikipedia. Tell me what's wrong with my suggestion. Barak a (talk) 22:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reread my response and you will have your answer. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to make clear I don't necessarily agree with Barak. I just couldn't find the quote that was referred to, and as someone currently in academia, I always want to check sources whether I agree or disagree with a statement. I am a fairly inexperienced wikipedian, so I don't think my opinion should even matter much, since I do not know all the conventions and rules around this, unlike jjj, who seems much more knowledgeable on this.
I was mostly following this because I am a eurovision fan and like to look at the role nationalism plays in a competition that tries to, at least on the surface, be apolitical. I don't think you meant harm, but please do not use me to support or counter any point being made here.
Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 13:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is Wikipedia policy. You are not providing any argument that is in-line with policy. She began her career in Russia and first garnered notability through a career in Russia, and there is consensus to include this. Her place of birth or what country she is representing in Eurovision do not erase that. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 17:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jjj1238 I already gave you an example with Rihanna, which you ignored. “Rihanna is a Barbadian singer”. Not “American-Barbadian”, though she started her career in the US and lived there for most of her life.
The opening sentence of an artist on a Wikipedia page is known to describe the artist’s origin, not the country their career started.
I just think you’re conveniently using the excuse of “policies” for pages that you have a personal bias against, while ignoring valid points in this thread and accusing people of “ nationalist editing”. 2600:1700:400D:F400:5CF5:3156:E8F2:EB4 (talk) 03:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Mishali, Gil (12 February 2024). ""A terrible choice": The Ukrainians against Eden Golan". Mako (website) (in Hebrew). Archived from the original on 12 February 2024. Retrieved 5 March 2024.

Crimea[edit]

The note regarding Crimea is confusing. It’s unclear what that has to do with Eden’s biography. 24.191.110.5 (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The relevance is that she was performing in disputed territory. —C.Fred (talk) 00:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Categories