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The place for this table is not here! And the enourmous note-list below it!
Even the author states "more or less independet" - this portion of the main Europe (continent) article is not about "semi-autonomous", "gurellia", etc. if Kosovo is included, then why not include Moldova-Trisapol, Northern Cyprus, etc.?? - it is about internationaly (UN?) "recognised" states...
The huge note list with details about nearly every state... that is not needed - these details are included in the states' own articles... if we start so, we should add notes like "Slovakia - one of the former Czechoslovakian republics", "France - a country known for its wine and fromage (cheese)", etc. "San marino is microstate surrounded by Italy and strongly dependent on it" - this is not a note, suitable for this section... This is a note suitable for the San Marino and Italy articles...
The usefull info in the table (membership to some organizations) should be put into a separate article and link to this article should be put into the "Europe - See also" section (if someone thinks that he can find a more appropriate place somewhere in the article - even better).
Also, the place of this table about "EEA, EU, NATO, Euro, Shengen" is not in the main Europe article - not all european states are interacting actively with these organizations and this could be considered a POV. Why not include CIS, GUUAM and other post-soviet organizations then?
Answering myself here: I just discovered there's actually an article Special member state territories and their relations with the EU that already includes a lot of the information I had in mind for presenting in the two new tables I suggested.
On the talk page of that article, I repeated the suggestion I made above, about creating a new article, The political geography of Europe. That page would list all the European nations, plus controversial cases, with notes, plus all the information in the above-mentioned article. If this suggestion has no other merits, at least the ever-continuing dispute on what is the exact list of European countries could be confined to a single place. Teemu Leisti 00:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In all this defining of Europe I miss some areas, like the Mahgreb countries which have been a part of european history for thousands of years, and today they are associated members of EU. They are already part of EU in many ways, like we in Sweden were before we got full membership.
They are part of Europe without having any say in Brussels, they are not shown on maps of Europe.
Look at the world at night, the night lights as seen from space.
http://www.colberts.us/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-160 click on the image to get a very big version of the image
You see how the industrialized Europe is a continous area from Morocco, Portugal and Britain in the west stretching into Siberia and central Asia in the east. That is Europe in the industrial and economic sense. The actual european market is all of that area, although different states have different levels of membership in the official EU.
I am glad that the Third country relationships with the EU page tells us a little about these countries and their relation to EU and Europe in general.
The southern border of EU and Europe in cultural, historical, industrial and economic terms is the Sahara desert, not the mediterrainian sea.
Roger4911 10:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I wrote the following sentence:
and someone later deleted the phrase "in the West". As far as I know, Europe is not considered a continent by Japanese and Chinese, who distinguish a continent as a land mass (大陸) and a region of the world (洲/州). Australia and Eurasia are the former; Oceania, Asia, and Europe are the latter. I think it is nothing strange to add the phrase "in the West", though it may irritate Eurocentrists who believe Europe is accepted as a continent worldwide.
In addition, Europe is geologically a peninsula, not a subcontinent, because Europe is on the Eurasian plate, unlike the Indian subcontinent. - TAKASUGI Shinji 08:46, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
OK, Takasugi-san, you seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about this. Is it the Wikipedia's job to teach readers of this article that "Europe is not a continent"? That seems to be what you are interested in. Evertype 21:35, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC)
There's an edit war going on on whether to include National Geographic Society as an authority to define Europe as a continent. (I'm not involved in this war.) As far as I have checked, they always use Europe for the European region, including the British Isles. So they can't be an authority for the European continent (large land mass excluding surrounding islands). - TAKASUGI Shinji 05:11, 2005 Apr 8 (UTC)
Europe and asia are definatly seperate continents. They are the only continents defined culturally. They are not one continent. All the books say so and it is just the accepted norm. If we are going to define continents utterly geographically then the article on north America should include eastern Siberia and Japan as being part of N.America and other wacky things which are true when defining continents geographically but are not the accepted norm - Josquius
Eurasia has a more detailed discussion of the continent question, and is linked from the first sentence of Europe. The Europe as continent POV can't go away entirely because it's historically important and people will ask about it.--JWB 19:22, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The population of Europe is wrong at 799 million. Area shown green on a map in this article witch is geographically part of Europe stands at about 680 million. The number of 799 million is probably meant if Europe includes whole Turkey and Caucasian countries, witch it does not. Calculate it for yourself!
Don't know the exact population, but i calculated manually and came to about 680-700 mil. I know for a fact that europe geographically includes european part of russia to the Ural mountains. Russia's popualtion is 1/3 in Asain part and 2/3 in Eruopean part witch means the european part is about 100 million. Turkey is NOT geographically part of eruope exept that small European part. I would still perfer if someone with the exact population would edit the page and correct it, since mine is quite approximate.
This needs changing on the Europe Wikiportal when it gets changed in this article, otherwise we get inconsistency. I'll also add "roughly" to the above number, because it could easily be off by 10-20 million either way from calculating percentages of the russian population alone. And then you haven't yet accounted for the fact that census numbers from other countries are not necessarily 100% correct or up to date. Because you can't: population numers are rarely precise. --Daniel
Takasugi Shinji just did a major revision changing "continent" to "region" and "Europe" and other things, which is fine. But packed into these edits were changes of colour to color. I think that the article on Europe ought to favour English English spelling, and so the US spellings should be reverted. Evertype 11:22, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)
The National Geographic Society is the largest nonprofit scientific and educational institution in the world. It is an organization specifically created ‘to increase and diffuse geographic knowledge." The position of a major geographic society is clearly germane to the subject of whether or not Europe is considered a continent. The excised quote was not saying that the society was correct. It's merely stating that is their position.
This sentence was removed by TAKASUGI Shinji-san
("as such" -> because there is no clear distinction between Europe and Asia).
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I would like to size the opportunity to underline the naivety of this. A significant proportion of European nations are transcontinental nations because of their empirial past (For imstance, France is part of organisations of American countries (because of her possessions of Guadeloupe, Guyanne, Martinique), and has possessions in the Pacific and Indian Ocean. Similarly, the United Kingdom remains an "Empire on which the sun never sets", etc.) Rama 06:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Removed Jan Mayen and Svalbard, as they are neither culturally "defined" nor autonomous (Jan Mayen has a population of less than 20!). Somebody should probably do the same with the British army bases, I do not know enough about them. IMO, only the Faroes and Gibraltar belong here, plus possibly, and only possibly, the Channel Islands. Oh, and Kosovo. Jørgen 09:45, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
The Race section is almost entirely lifted from http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html, a site advocating racial segregation. "Nordish" is also a neologism only used by McCulloch and followers. The detailed racial classification given is based on Carleton Coon's "The Races of Europe".--JWB 03:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the whole section pending aggreement and discussion of copyvios. After a quick glance through it, it sounds like patent nonsense. There is no such word as 'Keltic', try Celtic. 'Brünn' redirects to Brno, the city in Czech Republic. The section states that "John Kennedy (is) of the Brünn". Now, Kennedy came from an Irish family originating in Wexford. What on earth Brno has to do with anything is beyond me. "In England, Scotland and Ireland the incidence of blond hair is much higher in the east than in the west, in Germany it is much higher in the north than in the south." What? Is it saying that people in Dublin have blond hair and people in Galway have dark? Nonsense! Seabhcán 08:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if it violates copyright (McCulloch might be glad to get his fringe opinions into a mainstream publication, and Coon is old enough that copyright may be expired) but the POV represented is scientifically discredited, and repugnant to most. Mentioning racist POVs as existing in addition to mainstream ones might be OK for completeness or balance, but giving it most of the space in the section and having it appear as unquestioned scientific fact is not.--JWB 15:30, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
<Begin removed material from www.nordish.com>
There are three main regional racial groupings in Europe. The southern region (Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece) is a racial clinal zone (a border area where different races meet and intermix) where the Mediterranean racial group -- which inhabits southwest Asia (the "Middle East") and northern Africa as well as southern Europe -- has long intermixed with invaders from the northern areas of Europe. In this southern European "melting pot" -- which has dissolved many peoples into its solution -- the Mediterranids, in various local types, are generally dominant, having assimilated most of the other elements with which they have been hybridized, although some remnants of the other elements still survive.
In the middle region the Alpine racial group -- including the Alpinid, Dinaric and Ladogan races of southern France, northern Italy, Slovakia, Hungary, the Balkans, Ukraine and eastern Russia -- is predominant.
The northern region is inhabited by the Nordish racial group ("Nord" being the word for north in both French and German). The latter can be divided into two subgroups: an Inner or Central subgroup consisting of the Nordic, Borreby, Brünn, Fälish, Trønder and Anglo-Saxon subraces and subtypes of the British Isles, Scandinavia, northern Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium; and an Outer or Periphery subgroup, which includes the Atlantid subtypes of the British Isles, and the Noric, East Baltic and Neo-Danubian subtypes which predominate in northern France, southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria, the Czech Republic, Finland, the Baltic States, Poland and northwestern Russia. These last inhabit the racial clinal zone between the Central Nordish and Alpine racial groups, and are intermediate types resulting from hybridization or intermixture between these two groups, with the Nordish element being generally more numerous and predominant. The term Nordish is here used to refer to the indigenous peoples of northern Europe as a whole, including both Central and Periphery types, and also those peoples in North America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and elsewhere whose ancestors were of Northern European racial origin.
Although this system of classification is too simple to be completely accurate, and certainly too simple to be regarded as complete, it is tolerably accurate in identifying those European population groups which have a sufficient degree of genetic similarity and compatibility that they can interbreed more or less freely within the group without negating -- or significantly altering or disrupting -- their unique and distinctive ensembles of genetic characteristics. These racial groups can therefore be defined as races. Consequently, although these races can be further subdivided into a richly diverse variety of subraces and subtypes, the racial level of classification will be regarded as sufficient for most discussions in this work. A more detailed description of the subdivisions -- subraces and subtypes -- of the Nordish race is given in the outline below, followed by a listing of the countries of Europe showing the distribution of the different European racial types. For a more detailed outline of the Mediterranean, Alpine and other racial groups see The Races of Humanity .
The Nordish race, like many others, can be conceived as a series of concentric circles, with the innermost circle, the racial core or navel, consisting of the most distinct and definitive subracial types, in relation to which, in degrees of closeness or distance, the subracial types of the outer circles are defined. The racial outline given below is based on this principle. Some of the names are derived from archaeological sites where early examples of the types were found, others are based on geographical regions with which the types are associated.
Nordish or Northern European Race
1. Inner Circle of Core or Central Subracial Types
a. Aboriginal Northwest European subraces (The descendants of the first peoples to settle in northern Europe after the retreat of the glaciers, at the end of the last ice age, during the Upper Paleolithic period circa 8,000 B.C.)
1.) Borreby subrace (named after Danish island site where paleolithic remains were found; principal element in Denmark, southwest coast of Sweden, northern Germany, the Rhineland and the Ruhr, majority element in Wallonia)
2.) Brünn subrace (named after paleolithic site near Brno, or Brünn, Czech Republic; predominant element in western Ireland)
b. Nordic or Nordid subrace (The modern Nordic subrace is descended from the proto-Nordic Danubian neolithic farmers of the Danube valley whose expansion into northwest Europe circa 3,500 B.C. is probably associated with the spread of neolithic agriculture and the Indo-European language.)
1.) Hallstatt or Österdal type (named after Austrian site where remains were found and Norwegian valley near Oslo; predominant element in Sweden and southeastern Norway, common in Denmark, western Finland, eastern England and northern Germany) 2.) Keltic type (predominant element in Flanders, majority in the Netherlands and northern and western Switzerland, primary element in England, eastern Scotland and old Frankish country in southwest Germany, common in Wales and Ireland; ancient Franks and northern Kelts were of this type)
c. Blended types of above subraces
1.) Anglo-Saxon or Old Germanic Reihengräber type (Nordic- Brünn blend; predominant element in the Dutch province of Friesland (Frisia) and the Dutch and German Frisian Islands, common in southeast England and northwest Germany)
2.) Trønder type (Brünn-Nordic blend; predominant element in Trøndelagen area of western Norway [whence the name] and Iceland, common in northeast England and Scotland)
3.) Fälish, Dalofalid or Dalo-Nordic type (Nordic-Borreby blend; names from Fälen [German for "plain"] and Dalarna region of Sweden (Kopparberg); primary element on the north German plain, Jutland and the Swedish province of Kopparberg)
2. Outer Circle of Periphery Subracial Types
a. Northwestern periphery types (ancient stabilized blends of Inner Circle or Central Nordish inhabitants of northwestern Europe with Mesolithic Atlanto-Mediterranean immigrants)
1.) North-Atlantid type (associated with megalithic monuments and long barrow burial sites; primary element in Wales, southeast coast of Ireland and western Scotland, common in England; in coloring combines dark hair with usually light eyes)
2.) Palaeo-Atlantid type (common in Wales and in western England and Scotland from the Midlands to Glasgow, minor element in Norway; hair and eye coloring both dark)
b. Southern and Eastern periphery types (ancient stabilized blends of Inner Circle Nordish types with neighboring Caucasoid races)
1.) Neo-Danubian type (eastern periphery blend of original Danubian proto-Nordic with Ladogan, with the Danubian element dominant; majority element in Poland and Belorussia, primary element in Hungary, west Ukraine and northwest Russia, important in Finland and the Baltic States)
2.) East Baltic type (northeast periphery blend of Borreby and/or Fälish with Neo-Danubian and/or Ladogan; majority element in Finland and the Baltic States, formerly predominant in Old Prussia, but this element now dispersed throughout Germany as a result of the post-war expulsion of the Prussian population from its ancestral homeland)
3.) Noric or Sub-Nordic type (southern periphery blend of Nordic with Alpine and/or Dinaric, with the Nordic element dominant; principal element in northern France, important element in central Germany and Austria, common in Transylvania and western Ukraine, minor in British Isles)
Dominant or predominant = over 60% majority
Majority or major = 50-60% majority
Principal or primary = 25-49% plurality; less than a majority, but most numerous racial type
Important = 25-49% minority; not most numerous racial type
Common = 5-25% minority
Minor = less than 5% minority
There is regional variation within the types, forming local subtypes and varieties. Of the three central Nordish subraces, the Borrebys and Brünns tend to have somewhat larger heads, broader features and heavier body builds than the Nordics. In height they are essentially the same. Of American presidents in this century Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt and George Bush are good examples of the Nordic subrace, Theodore Roosevelt and Gerald Ford of the Borreby, and John Kennedy of the Brünn. The Palaeo-Atlantids are typically dark-eyed (brown or dark-mixed, the latter a mixture of brown with blue or green). The other Nordish types are predominantly light-eyed (blue, gray, green or light-mixed). Light-mixed eyes (a mixture of blue and green) are particularly common in the Nordic subrace. The two Atlantid types are dark haired. Among the other types hair color is variable from very dark to very light, with the light and medium brown shades generally the most common among adults. Hair color is lightest among children, and usually darkens with age. Among adults the incidence of blond hair varies, from lows of 13-15% in the Walloon Borrebys and the Irish Brünns, to highs of over 50% among the Hallstatt Nordic, Trønder, Borreby and Fälish peoples of Scandinavia, the Anglo-Saxons of Frisia, and the East Baltics of Finland. In England, Scotland and Ireland the incidence of blond hair is much higher in the east than in the west, in Germany it is much higher in the north than in the south. As a rule, the higher the incidence of blond hair the higher also is the proportion of the light blond shades to the dark blond. Red hair is common in the Brünn and Borreby stems (and in those of partial Brünn or Borreby derivation), minimal in the Nordic. For reference, an estimate of the distribution of racial types in the indigenous European populations is given below.
Estimated Racial Composition and Nordish Percentage of Indigenous European Populations:
Sweden = 70% Hallstatt Nordic (Carleton Coon described Sweden as a refuge area for the classic Nordic race), 10% Borreby (most common in the southwest coastal region), 10% Fälish (most common in Dalarna [Kopparberg] and the southwest coastal region), 5% Trønder (most common near the central Norwegian border), 5% East Baltic = 100% Nordish (95% central and 5% periphery types)
Norway = 45% Trønder (most common in the west), 30% Hallstatt Nordic (most common in the southeast area around Oslo), 10% Borreby (most common in the southwest), 7% Fälish (most common in the south), 5% East Baltic (most common in the far north), 3% Palaeo-Atlantid (found in western coastal areas) = 100% Nordish (92% central and 8% periphery types)
Denmark = 40% Borreby, 30% Fälish, 20% Hallstatt Nordic, 5% Anglo-Saxon, 5% East Baltic = 100% Nordish (95% central and 5% periphery types)
Iceland = 60% Trønder, 22% Borreby, 15% Brünn, 3% Palaeo-Atlantid = 100% Nordish (97% central and 3% periphery types)
England = 30% Keltic Nordic (derived from pre-Roman Iron Age invaders), 20% Anglo-Saxon (post-Roman Germanic invaders, most common in the southeast, especially East Anglia), 15% North-Atlantid and 10% Palaeo-Atlantid (blend of Mesolithic Atlanto-Mediterranean invaders with both earlier and later arrivals; most common in the Midlands and northwest), 8% Hallstatt Nordic (of Viking and Norman derivation), 5% Brünn, 5% Trønder (of Norwegian Viking derivation; most common in the northeast), 3% Borreby and 2% Fälish (both of Viking and Norman derivation; associated with the landed gentry; source of the "John Bull" type), 2% Noric (from Bronze-Age invaders) = 100% Nordish (73% central and 27% periphery types)
Scotland = 30% Keltic Nordic, 22% Trønder (most common in the northeast), 10% North-Atlantid (most common in the west), 10% Anglo-Saxon (most common in the southeast), 10% Palaeo-Atlantid (most common in the southwest), 5% Brünn, 5% Hallstatt Nordic, 4% Borreby, 4% Noric = 100% Nordish (76% central and 24% periphery types)
Ireland = 40% Brünn (indigenous Paleolithic inhabitants, most common in the west), 30% Keltic Nordic (most common in the east), 9% North-Atlantid, 9% Borreby, 3% Palaeo-Atlantid, 3% Trønder, 2% Noric, 2% Anglo-Saxon, 1% Hallstatt Nordic = 100% Nordish (86% central and 14% periphery types)
Wales = 35% North-Atlantid, 30% Palaeo-Atlantid, 30% Keltic Nordic, 5% other types = 100% Nordish (35% central and 65% periphery types)
The Netherlands = 50% Keltic Nordic (of Frankish derivation), 20% Borreby, 10% Anglo-Saxon (most common in Frisia), 10% Fälish, 10% Hallstatt Nordic = 100% Central Nordish
Belgium = 60% Keltic Nordic (most common in Flanders, derived from the ancient Belgae and Franks), 35% Borreby and 5% Alpine (both most common in Wallonia) = 95% Central Nordish
Luxembourg = 80% Alpine, 15% Borreby, 5% other Nordish types = 20% Central Nordish
Germany = 25% Borreby (most common in the Rhine and Ruhr valleys and the north), 20% Fälish (most common in the north), 15% Alpine (most common in Baden and Bavaria), 15% Noric, 6% Keltic Nordic (most common in the old Frankish country in the southwest), 5% Anglo-Saxon (most common in the northwest), 5% East Baltic, 5% Dinaric, 4% Hallstatt Nordic = 80% Nordish (60% central and 20% periphery types)
France = 30% Alpine, 30% Noric (most common in the north), 20% Mediterranean (most common in the south and Corsica), 15% Dinaric, 3% Borreby (in the northeast), 2% Nordic = 35% Nordish (5% central and 30% periphery types)
Switzerland = 40% Keltic Nordic and 30% Noric (most common in the north, west and center), 15% Dinaric and 15% Alpine (most common in the south and east) = 70% Nordish (40% central and 30% periphery types)
Austria = 35% Noric, 25% Dinaric, 20% Alpine, 15% Keltic Nordic, 5% Hallstatt Nordic = 55% Nordish (20% central and 35% periphery types) Poland = 55% Neo-Danubian, 10% Ladogan, 10% Alpine, 10% Dinaric, 5% Hallstatt Nordic, 5% Noric, 5% East Baltic = 70% Nordish (5% central and 65% periphery types)
Finland and the Baltic States = 50% East Baltic, 15% Hallstatt Nordic (most common in the Swedish-settled areas of Finland), 30% Neo-Danubian (most common in southeast Lithuania and northeast Finland), 5% Ladogan = 95% Nordish (15% central and 80% periphery types) The Czech Republic and Slovakia = 40% Alpine and 15% Noric (most common in Bohemia), 25% Dinaric (most common in Moravia), 20% Neo-Danubian (most common in Slovakia) = 35% Periphery Nordish
Hungary = 35% Neo-Danubian (most common in the northeast), 25% Turanid (of Magyar derivation), 20% Dinaric (most common in the southwest), 15% Alpine (most common in the south), 2% Nordic, 2% Noric, 1% East Mediterranean = 39% Nordish (2% central and 37% periphery types) Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine = 40% Neo-Danubian (most common in Belorussia and western Ukraine), 35% Ladogan, 8% Nordic, 7% East Mediterranean (most common near the Black Sea coast), 5% Dinaric (most common in eastern Ukraine), 5% Noric = 53% Nordish (8% central and 45% periphery types)
Spain and Portugal = 85% West Mediterranean, 9% South Mediterranean, 5% Dinaric, 1% Nordic (most common in the remnants of the Visigoth aristocracy) = 1% Central Nordish
Italy = 50% Dinaricized Mediterranean (most common in the south and Sicily), 20% Dinaric (most common in the north), 15% Alpine (most common in the northwest), 10% West Mediterranean (most common in Sardinia), 4% Noric (most common in the north, 1% Nordic (most common in the remnants of the Ostrogoth and Lombard aristocracy) = 5% Nordish (1% central and 4% periphery types). Italy, much like the other southern European countries of the Mediterranean region -- Spain, Portugal and Greece -- experienced several waves of Nordish invasions during ancient and early Medieval times, from the Danubians (circa 2,000-1,500 B.C.), who brought the Indo-European language that developed into Latin, and the Kelts (beginning circa 500 B.C.), to the Germanic Ostrogoths and Lombards (A.D. 400-700). These Nordish elements have been gradually assimilated into the majority Mediterranean population, but some of their genetic traits, existing in solution, occasionally recombine to appear in individuals whose other traits are mostly non-Nordish.
Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Macedonia = 75% Dinaric, 10% West Mediterranean (most common on the coast), 10% Noric and 5% Neo-Danubian (most common in the north) = 15% periphery Nordish types Romania = 35% Dinaric (most common in the west), 25% East Mediterranean (most common on the coast), 20% Neo-Danubian (most common in the northeast), 10% Alpine, 7% Noric and 3% Nordic (most common in the west) = 30% Nordish (3% central and 27% periphery types)
Albania = 75% Dinaric, 10% West Mediterranean, 10% Alpine, 5% Noric = 5% periphery Nordish
Bulgaria = 60% East Mediterranean, 15% Alpine, 15% Dinaric, 5% Turanid, 5% Nordish
Greece = 40% East Mediterranean, 25% Dinaricized Mediterranean, 20% Alpine (most common in Epirus), 10% Dinaric, 5% Nordish (partly assimilated remnant, or genetic recombinations from solution, of various past Nordish invaders, mostly of Danubian type, going back to the ancient Achaeans and Dorians; most common in the north)
<End of removed www.nordish.com material> <Following paragraph was not from www.nordish.com> Modern research on Y chromosome and mtdna show that Europeans originate from a number of historical groups,eg Middle Eastern farmer,central asian nomads and Paleolithic hunters.The least diverse of Europeans population are the Irish and Basques, while the "Nordic race" are one of the most diverse,in fact Norwegians share many markers with the people of Altai in Siberia. <End removed Race section>
Whilst that article that has been deleted is unnaceptable for several reasons, it is also completely unnaceptable that the article on Europe does not have any section on 'Race' while the article on Africa does have such a section.
Perhaps someone should seed a 'Race' section in the Europe article which can then be carefully expanded on incrementally?
Horses and donkeys are not in the same race, they can mate and can get offspring, but the offspring will be sterile, cannot get living offspring.
All human ethnic groups can mate and get children who can get children, so all humans are part of the same race.
If somebody would like to write about differences between people he should use words like "genetical differences", but not the word race.
Roger4911 10:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
One possible reason is that the "Race Question" is very different in different parts of Europe. It's probably better tackled in individual countries. DJ Clayworth 17:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I see Seabhcán changed the Race section in Africa to Demographics. Europe could have a Demographics section with Demographics of the European Union as main article. ("Demographics of X" seems to be a Wikipedia title convention, but in this case Demographics of Europe is a smaller stub.
I'm curious why the anonymous poster at top of section thinks Europe has to have a Race section if Africa does. I agree with Rama etc. that current European attitudes seem to consider discussion of native racial differences within Europe to be old-fashioned and a waste of time if not actually harmful. There are probably more Americans concerned with it. It's interesting that the nordish.com Race section which was cut was written by an American and uses only American Presidents as example individuals.
There's controversy and material aplenty about European and other race at Caucasoid, Negroid, Extra-European Caucasoid, Northern Eurasian Supercluster, Caucasian race, Whites, Validity of human races, Race (historical definitions), Race etc. You probably want to keep this stuff out of Europe or even the Demographics of Europe articles but just link if necessary.--JWB 20:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thats because greeks are rasict, just look at prince philip :P nahh just kidding. But race really isn't a helpful concept when discussing europe from within europe. We need to understand cultural and linguistic differences between Europeans far more than we need to understand racial differences.
A country is either in Europe or it is debatable. For a country to be included in Europe, it should have 50% + 1 of its border on what is considered as Europe.
This is Europe.
http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/europa.gif
Another one.
http://www.travel.com.hk/map/newmap/engmap/web/part/euro1.gif
The template of European countries is against Wikipedias NPOV and neutral concept, because it present a debatable position as a fact. The template should only include those nations that their "Europeness" (geographically, and NOT culturally(because this is debatable)) is clear cut and not debatable. We can not present names of countries and dump them in Europe as if it was more than just a position, when the country is even not included in Europe in most encyclopedias and maps. My Larousse doesn't say Turkey in Europe, doesn't say Georgia, neither Azerbaijan or Armenia in Europe. Universalis the World biggest French language encyclopedia(I have the 6 CD collection, and which take over 4 GB of hard disk space), doesn't say either.
Members voting here does not apply, why not passing a vote to determine if Earth is flat? Members voting is only useful regarding how an article is writen and not what is a fact... because Wikipedia is not about facts but presenting positions and in this regard, I find country inclusions as facts and the template against Wikipedia and as a Wikipedian expect the Wikipedian principles to be respected. Fadix 22:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since "Europe" is a geographic place and a collection of political and cultural entities, I propose to repeat the following definition, which should, I suggest, be adopted as a "definition" that makes sense for the Wikipedia. Meaning that if we adopt it, we don't have to keep fighting about this issue.
[The Alphabets of Europe] defines Europe thus:
This list is inclusive, not arbitrary, and was certainly a reasonable way to enable us to accomplish our task in the Alphabets of Europe project. I commend it to the Wikipedia for our article on "Europe". Evertype 16:43, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC)
Truth, Fadix? There is no "truth". What goes into "Europe" is a matter of choice and definition. Anatolia is not part of Europe; everyone agrees that. A part of Turkey is in Europe. And with regard to Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia, the question is whether Europe includes Transcaucasia or not. I believe it ought to. Others may not believe it does. There is no NPOV, but what one can do is to give a definition of what one considers to be Europe. The Alphabets of Europe project had to do this, and we found the definition above to be useful. I propose that we adopt such a definition for the Wikipedia. That will forestall further argument. If we don't, then we're going to have to go over this again and again and again. Georgia, by the way, has said that it wishes to join NATO and the European Union.
The article Culture of Italy has been listed to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. You can add your vote there if you would like to support the article.--Fenice 14:20, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
to Codecs Sinaiticus:
Also, I think that the wording of your version is more vague and the other vesion is better formulated (and thus limiting the regions to be included to realy self-ruling regions and not every place where some person/group has declared to be independent of the host state)
It has been proposed that uses of terms Macedonia¤, Macedonian¤, and Macedonians¤ in articles mentioning the Republic of Macedonia¤ should be accompanied with the following disclaimer:
In particular, this article will be affected, among some others. If you happen to have an opinion for or against this proposition, please vote on it at Talk:Macedonian¤ denar/Vote. Thank you. -- Naive cynic 16:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Is the lack of "culture" and "economy" sections a conscious decision? If so, why? --Oldak Quill 19:25, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't have the power to change the colors on the map, but the color of France, Belgium and Holland is wrong. These countries have been a part of central Europe for 2000 years, politically, economically and culturally. They should be light blue like the rest of central Europe.
That Great Britain has another color than continental Europe is in order, it has its own history. The rest of the map is okay with me. (Roger J.)
The whole section "Regions of Europe" should be deleted.
It is written without real knowledge of Europe.
There are real regions in europe, like central europe, france, germany, poland, benelux, tjeckoslovakia, hungary, austria.
the mediterrainan world, spain, portugal, italy, greece, turkey, and the french riviera.
The scandinavian and baltic region.
great britain is a region by itself,for historical reasons, it was a superpower for hundreds of years, before it started to secretly cooperate with usa, and it still tries to sabotage eu on behalf of usa.
The map here is a cold war picture, which we europeans do not want to remember, a period of 50 years when our continent was occupied and divided by the big powers usa and soviet.
It is a perspective which could make anti-european, american people happy, but we europeans are happy that we finally can restore european relations between countries after so many years of occupation and a division enforced by outside powers.
The "regions" in the current version are chosen by somebody who has no idea of the history of europe, and seems to be an enemy of the union between france and germany which is the basis for the european union and the modern europe.
The map and the section about regions is created by an enemy of europe and the european union.
This section doesn't give much useful infomation and is faulty, the only reasonable solution is to delete the whole section.
If somebody wants to create a real "regions of Europe" based on reality I don't mind, but the current version is a propaganda piece against europe and EU.
Somebody would love to see a split between germany and france and has divided europe in a very unnatural way in that map.
The text is just a list of european countries and it feels like it is there just to justify the treacherous map.
Ask many french people, if they feel closer to britain or germany. Most will reply that they are much closer to germany, politically, economically, culturally and in many other ways.
Roger J.
I agree with Roger about the categorizations. The strict divide between Eastern and Western Europe is outdated and a result of the Iron Curtain. Culturally and geographically, we have Western, Central and Eastern Europe. The breakdown by region should be changed to reflect this.
DM
What is the "Linguistic-cultural Regions in Europe" section meant to be? I have never heard of Europe being divided into linguistic regions. The existing section is misspelled, and gramatically incorrect. I have removed it for now. Does anyone think we should keep a section on Linguistic divisions of Europe? -- Hexagon1 06:58, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This section has much more meaning than the "geographical" division above.
The European people doesn't group themselves in arbitrary "cardinal" division as shown above since it doesn't relate to any cultural reality.
Culturally a French will relate himself much better to an Italian or a Spanish than to A Dutch or a British !
The so-called "western Europe" grouping explained above have to be remove. Western Europe is ALL Western Europe (including Spain, Italy, Germany). Put together only France, Benelux and UK has absolutly no meaning. these countries doesn't share any common history, linguistic origins, not even common geographical characteristics or common climates (what in common beetwen Corsica, Bordeaux or Lyon with Edimbourg, Amsterdam or Dublin ??). This grouping is very subjective, I think it is a good thing to show that other classifications are more precise and reflect more clearly the real bonds among peoples.
This part of the article is really usefull, it describe an objective reality of Europe, while the"cardinal" classification put countries that don't have much in common in arbitrary "cardinal" groups.
But I agree the grammer in incorrect and should be corrected.
I've fixed the religious section in the article, so can we now remove the religious references from the Cultural and Linguistic section??? (Stpaul 10:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC))
These "geographical" regions are geographically without meaning (the regions are not divided by montains, different climates, peninsulas, etc.) but are in reality coming from the socio-political divisions of Europe that date back from the 19th century in USA (in the case of "western Europe", see the article on W.Europe), or from the 20th (the cold war period). Since 1990 (end of communism) these divisions don't have any meaning anymore, what make the difference between West and east is not capitalism or communism, but the cultural grouping : linguitic groups (slavic, latin, germanic) and the religious herency (catholic, orthodox, protestant) that have left their landmarks in these regions since thousands of years.
In this page it should be only : - A pure geographical grouping (Scandinavia, Iberian peninsula, Italian peninsula, Balkan peninsula, British isles, and "main landmass Europe".
- A pure political grouping based on the political situation of 2005, and not in the 19th century. (countries in the EU, countries out of it, countries that will enter it, etc.)
- a cultural grouping of the countreis and people based on linguistic or/and religious herency.
- Maybe a climatical grouping, since each climate (specific ways of life, specific food products, etc.) leave on the people a deep mark.
No longer shall i accept yee communistic ways of calling europe a continent
Bold text == EUROPE IS NOT A FUCKING CONTINENT!
==
Maybe it will be good to say from the beginning that Europe is commonly called a continent but folowing the definition it is only a peninsula of Eurasia.
In brief response:
Ta! E Pluribus Anthony 21:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
yee is one of the communists!
Why such frantic behavior? No, Europe is not a geological continent, but more of a cultural continent; or a subcontinent, like India and it's neighbors, separated by major geographical boundaries, although Europe isn't on its own tectonic plate. But in actuality there are only four continents: Eurasia/Africa, North America/South America, Australia, and Antarctica. Just an observation. --Jugbo
The Scotland Portal is now up and running. It is a project in the early stages of development, but I think it could be a very useful resource indeed, perhaps more for general readers (the vast majority I presume), rather than committed editors, who may be more attracted by the great possibilities of the notice board format: Wikipedia:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board.
Give it a Watch, and lend a hand if you can. It is (hopefully) fairly low-maintenance, but if we run with the "News" section, that will take dedication: time which I cannot commit to presently myself. Most other boxes need replacment/update only weekly, fortnightly, or monthly, plus the occasional refreshment of the Scotland-related categories. Anyway, I assume this is how the other Portals are run, so we can follow their lead.
Please add the following code - ((portal|Scotland)) - to your own User page, and you will have the link to the portal right there for easy access. I will investigate how other portals use shortcuts too.
Assistance from Wikipedians in the rest of Europe, and indeed everywhere, would be greatly appreciated!--Mais oui! 08:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Is possible that the name "Europe" may derived from the name "Brygians" (or Bryges or Baryges) a people in North Greece that in Classic Era has lived in Epirus and Western Macedonia?
--IonnKorr 16:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)