Disambiguation

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It has been proposed in this section that Fourth of July (disambiguation) be renamed and moved to Fourth of July. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use ((subst:requested move)). Do not use ((requested move/dated)) directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Fourth of July (disambiguation) → Fourth of July – This could refer to either the holiday in the US or refer to the date since not every country celebrates this holiday. Interstellarity (talk) 00:25, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. It certainly can refer to July 4 generally, but the standard isn't whether it could refer to multiple things, but rather whether one is primary. Here are pageviews, and you can search "Fourth of July" and get results overwhelmingly related to the holiday. SilverLocust 💬 01:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per SilverLocust. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Disambiguation has been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 08:06, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per this being the primary common name of the Founding holiday of the United States. Fireworks and parades aside, the wording 'Fourth of July' has a national meaning well outside of the July 4 date. Would also suggest that maybe it snows in July in the U.S. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:21, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I acknowledge the national importance of this date within the United States; however, on an international level, it's not the primary usage. For countries that use the DD-MM-YY format, 'Fourth of July' typically would not refer to US Independence Day. Nevertheless, given that the phrase 'Fourth of July' is deeply ingrained in English-speaking culture to refer to the US Independence Day, I support a disambiguation. Finally, the disambiguation page having "may also" in Fourth of July or 4th of July may also refer to: July 4, the date is where I leave this discussion. Svampesky (talk) 18:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Clarification The reason I support a disambiguation is because whilst 'Fourth of July' is deeply engrained in English-speaking culture to refer to US Independence Day, it is not the primary usage in English-speaking culture. Svampesky (talk) 10:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Of course it is. The Fourth of July is another name for Independence Day. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• A procedural close?, just checked and there is no notice of this RM at Fourth of July, which would be directly affected by this move and which yesterday received app. 1,000 clicks (anybody's guess at how many of those 1,000 would have come to this discussion?), nor at Independence Day (United States). These omissions may be reason to close this RM procedurally, or at least weigh heavily in the close. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Fourth of July is a redirect, and it received 156 clicks yesterday, not 1,000.[1] 162 etc. (talk) 04:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not 1,000, but 1,002. The redirect would be changed per this RM, that's what the RM is asking for. In addition, the user who created the redirect Fourth of July was not notified of the RM. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

156. That's what this graph says.

Also, how exactly are you suggesting we give "notice" here? There's already a note at Talk:Independence Day (United States), which is the article that Fourth of July targets. The RM procedure is being followed as it should. 162 etc. (talk) 05:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thanks. Was just making sure that the 'rules' don't require notice at the redirect page or to the page creator. Although having 1,002 searches for the term Fourth of July on July 4 adds to the commonsense reasoning of why the redirect and its holiday target were chosen as primary. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the number 1,002 coming from? I don't see it at that pageview link. What I see there is 156 views on July 3, and 1,157 views in the 21-day date range from June 13 to July 3. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a lull between time zones? The 1,002 figure are the page views for July 4 (156 covers July 3). Randy Kryn (talk) 11:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strange. I see it there now. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sleight of hand. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: Pageviews show that this WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT is leading to the correct topic of primary interest to Wikipedia readers. As far as I know, there is no Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that topics need to have the same importance to readers in all geographic locations. As long as we're pretty sure that the vast majority of readers are looking for a particular topic when they use a topic name, it makes sense for that topic to have the undisambiguated topic name. Even one of the people who supports this move acknowledges "that the phrase 'Fourth of July' is deeply ingrained in English-speaking culture to refer to the US Independence Day". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as it's a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. No evidence that, even combined, the other articles in the dab come close to the combined likelihood of Independence Day (United States) for what our readers want. Skynxnex (talk) 04:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Clear primary redirect even for non-Americans (I am one). -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]