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GA
This article has been rated as GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
A fact from Hotel Chelsea appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 2 November 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that during the late 20th century, residents of the Hotel Chelsea(pictured) could give the owner paintings instead of paying rent?
I'm originally from New York, and I've always heard it called the "Chelsea Hotel", not the "Hotel Chelsea". Is there any basis for the version of the name used here? -- Jmabel 06:23, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The name on their website is the Hotel Chelsea: http://www.hotelchelsea.com/ . I think it's the "official" name, even though you're right that most people call it the Chelsea Hotel. Moncrief 06:27, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)
yep- in conversation it's just 'the chelsea'. in the real world that causes problems, couriers looking for the Chelsea Lodge show up etc. Absolute pedantry!
Permanent guests
Can someone say if the hotel is still used by permanent guests? Or is it just a hotel now. Their website seems to suggest that its just an expensive hotel now.
-to the best of my knowledge, the hotel still has more permanent guests than rooms for people who only stay there for a few days. This is what I heard when staying there a year ago (2005).
In a recent Sunday Times Magazine article (25 March 2007), it says that of 240 apartments, 60% are residential and only 40% are hotel rooms. Chrisfow 18:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Removed "Raymond Foye." Not a notable 'writer or thinker'. 71.247.73.50 19:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
POV?
Does anyone else feel that "Ruth Harkness...during her long decline into alcoholic oblivion." is kind of out of nowhere and judgemental? Even Sid stabbing his wife to death (ok, allegedly) is very matter-of-fact, no judging. Harkness' bit sounds like someone with an agenda decided to vent a little.
Price?
Does anyone know if the chelsea hotel is expensive these days? i go on websites about it and the pictures they have of the rooms is so nicer than how the hotel was Years ago. so i was wondering what the price of a normal room would be?. --70.18.67.87 21:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)-Bianca[reply]
This is in the intro: 'It is perhaps best-known as the hotel where Sid Vicious of the Sex Pistols stabbed his girlfriend Nancy Spungen to death…' shouldn't this read '…where Sid Vicious of the Sex Pistols allegedly (or may have) stabbed his girlfriend Nancy Spungen to death…', seeing as he was never found guilty of the crime, and there were other people visiting the room that night?eiscir 17:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone really remember who Sid Vicious was?
I remember it as the home of Virgil Thompson.Saxophobia 00:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Google search for "Virgil Thompson" returns 16,300 hits. "Sid Vicious" returns 1,670,000, indicating that Sid Vicious is approximately 100 times better remembered than Virgil Thompson. Even if, as I suspect, you mean Virgil Thomson, that returns 128,000 hits. I think Sid still as it.86.0.203.120 (talk) 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Frida Kahlo and Diego Riviera? And regarding "On the Road" . . .
In checking Hayden Herrera's book, Frida and Diego stayed at the Barbizon Plaza, now the Trump Parc, whenever they came to New York. I found no reference in any book about either of them at the Chelsea. Can whoever added them to the list of residents provide a source? Also, while there is a reference given in the article, most major books on Kerouac list 454 W. 20th as the place of the final writing of "On The Road" (the book had been in the works for years). Even the Wikipedia "Kerouac" article lists that address. I do not think Kerouac ever even lived at the Chelsea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.25.46.110 (talk) 05:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The citation regarding "On the Road" is a USA Today article, not a scholarly source. It is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.12.203 (talk) 02:53, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Supposed haunting
I was really surprised to not see anything about the hotel supposedly being haunted. That is definitely one of the main things it's famous for. I'm not saying that the haunting is a fact, but the public notion or general idea should be worth mentioning. G90025 (talk) 12:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's actually not "one of the main things" the hotel is famous for, but if it's so well known, it should be easy for you to find a citation from a reliable source and add it to the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Removal
I did a major gutting of the everything from Notable residents down. I pulled out everything that did not have some kind of source for the information. Everyone wants to put their favorite artists in the list. We should require they provide a source. These were getting so bloated and were very hard to read. ~ GB fan 18:58, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Come on now... It looks ridiculous to have just one song there. Especially when there are explicit references to the hotel in many other songs.
Leonard Cohen's song called "Chelsea Hotel no. 2".
Bob Dylan's song called "Sara" has a lyric that goes "Staying up days at the Chelsea Hotel, writing Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands for You"
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Lightbursttalk 04:47, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1: ... that Stanley Bard, who was jealous of the Hotel Chelsea as a child, later managed the hotel? Source: Fleming, Robert (December 11, 1983). "Hotel Chelsea celebrates a centennial of the bizarre and controversial". Chicago Tribune. pp. J8, J9
ALT2: ... that Stanley Bard, who was jealous of the Hotel Chelsea as a child because his father spent all his time there, later became the hotel's manager? Source: Fleming, Robert (December 11, 1983). "Hotel Chelsea celebrates a centennial of the bizarre and controversial". Chicago Tribune. pp. J8, J9
ALT4: ... that the Hotel Chelsea was once described as one of New York City's two "Statues of Liberty"? Source: Vowell, Sarah (February 1999). "I'll Take the Room With the Tortured Past". GQ: Gentlemen's Quarterly. Vol. 69, no. 2. pp. 97–100, 102–103.
ALT5: ... that a headline in The Wall Street Journal proclaimed that if Stanley Bard likes your wife, you'll get a room at the Chelsea? Source: "If Stanley Bard Likes Your Wife You'll Get A Room at the Chelsea". The Wall Street Journal. December 21, 1972. p. 1
5× expansion of 13 October 2023 version completed from 10,743 characters to 60,411 and nominated three days later. No copyvios detected (AGF books and offline refs which can't go through Dup detector). Article is well-sourced. Main hook is 119 characters long (ALT1 is 92; ALT2 is 145; ALT3 is 86; ALT4 is 93; ALT5 is 125); all six are under the 200 character max. limit and are interesting. Ref 46 (verifying the main hook) is a reliable source from the NYT (AGF all other refs which are offline or behind paywall). QPQ done. Image is free under CC BY-3.0. Looks good to go! —Bloom6132 (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Amount of space devoted to notable residents
I've removed the undue-weight tag, which was added with the edit summary "The amount of space devoted to "notable residents" is excessive". With all due respect, it is not. Unlike most other hotels in NYC, the Chelsea is known specificallybecause of its notable residents, of which it has had an inordinate amount. Several sources, such as Ed Hamilton's Legends of the Chelsea Hotel: Living with the Artists and Outlaws at New York's Rebel Mecca and Sherill Tippins's Inside the Dream Palace: the Life and Times of New York's Legendary Chelsea Hotel talk about the hotel's residents in great depth, devoting entire chapters to certain residents. The notable residents section devotes at most one sentence to each resident (and, in fact, most of the residents are mentioned only in one of the bulleted lists).
The prose size of this article is about 60,000 bytes, which is also appropriate given the cultural importance of this hotel. The prose size of the "notable residents" section is just 6,000 bytes - 10% of the total and hardly an excessive amount of space.
Given this context, the tag should not be restored, especially without further discussion. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:53, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
I reviewed the top few matches found using Earwig's Copyvio Detector. No issues. The matches were titles, attributed quotes, and phrases acceptabel per WP:LIMITED, e.g. "subdivided into more than 300 rooms". No issues found during spot checks.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
At the start of the review, the article was 9860 words, excluding the lists of notable residents. As I read it in more detail I'll bear WP:TOOBIG in mind. Update: There were a only a couple of very short examples that I suggested could be removed. The article is detailed, but broken into appropriate sectinos and IMO remains focused.
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
No issues.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
No ongoing edit wars, although a difference of opinion between editors on the "amount of text dedicated to notable residents" happened this month.
6.Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
Images are relevant. Positioning is fine. No real problems with the captions, but maybe "Exterior detail" could be slightly expanded. Optionally, ALT text could be added to describe the content of the images. (See MOS:ALT)
7. Overall assessment.
A throroughly-researched, well-organised article. Meets the GA criteria.
@BennyOnTheLoose:, thanks for taking up the review. Regarding the article's size, it is indeed a rather long article, though I think this may be because the hotel has an inordinate amount of coverage in reliable sources, even compared to other NYC hotels (or other buildings). Epicgenius (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Site
Why is the link to the ZoLa page for "216 West 23 Street, 10011" rather than to #222? (I'm expecting that it's the right link, but I'm not familiar with the conventions)
Good question. The ZoLa website is strange in that, if several land lots have been combined, the website will use one of the address numbers attached to the site (even if it's not the most commonly used address number). The NYC Department of Buildings site shows that this land lot is at 216–234 West 23rd Street, which corresponds to the Chelsea Hotel's address, 222 West 23rd Street. Epicgenius (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"When the Chelsea was built, there was a church on either side of the lot" - is it worth adding when it was built? (Maybe not, as it does appear in the lead, and in "Development")
I added a brief mention of its completion date. Epicgenius (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Public areas: "leading one observer to liken the space to the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum." Does this opinion merit inclusion?
Not really. I've removed it. Epicgenius (talk) 20:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spot check on "The center of the building is surmounted by a "pyramid" accessed by a narrow wooden staircase" - no issues. Does pyramid need to be in quote marks?
It does not. I have removed the quote marks. Epicgenius (talk) 20:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spot check on "Each floor had a mixture of small and large apartments, so residents of different socioeconomic classes could reside on the same story" (against NPR site) - no issues.
What's the source text supporting "A wide variety of styles and materials were used in the apartments to fit each tenant's taste" please? (I dont have access to that source.)
"Upstairs, individuality was celebrated in the form of custom-designed apartments for all association members: fireplace styles ranged from baroque white marble to late Gothic woodwork, and tile choices varied from Moorish Mosaic to hand-molded William Morris to whimsical Minton creations in blue and white." I also removed "wide" from "a wide variety". Epicgenius (talk) 20:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Guestrooms and apartments: "All of the units had a separate layout" - maybe unique rather than separate? Spot check was fine (NYT mentions "no two units are alike")
Guestrooms and apartments: "such as wooden nightstands" seems rather unremarkable to me, but no harm in retaining it.
History
Spot check on "During the early 19th century, apartment developments in the city were generally associated with the working class" - I couldn't easily see how this is supported by the cited sources; could you point me to the relevant text please?
I copied this from another article. Apparently I was copying and pasting without realizing that the sentence had become detached from its source. Basically, the correct source was this report, which says: "It is not surprising, therefore, that multiple dwellings for those with lower incomes began to exist in New York early in its development. By the early 1800s, those who could not afford single-family homes lived in boarding houses, hotels, or subdivided rowhouses. [...] It was not until 1869-70, however, with Richard Morris Hunt's Stuyvesant Apartments, which had the cachet of a well-known designer and a facade which exhibited its more lofty intentions, that apartment living began to be seen as acceptable for the middle and upper classes." I have replaced the source. Epicgenius (talk) 20:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Development: "Conversely, a contemporary New-York Tribune article described..." - I'm not sure "Conversely" is quite right, isn't it just something like "However"?
Early years and hotel conversion: Spot check on "According to the Real Estate Record and Guide, many construction suppliers and workers chose to move into the apartments rather than accept monetary compensation" - Gray comments "although the journal did not say whether under duress or by free choice" so I think the "chose" is questionable.
Good point. I reworded it to say merely that they moved in. Epicgenius (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Early years and hotel conversion: "The Panic of 1893, and then the lasting effects of the Panic of 1901, further strained the Chelsea Association's finances" -Again, could you let me know what's in this source, which I don't have access to? *Optionally, maybe outline in a few words what the Panics of 1893 and 1901 were; this aren't familair terms to me, but they are appropriately linked so you may decide further words are unnecessary.
"The Chelsea had a run of bad luck—bankrupted by the one-two punch of the 1893 and 1903 recessions". The Panics were merely recessions, but I think the "1903 recession" has an incorrect date. I've rephrased them as 1893 economic crash and 1900s crash, respectively. Epicgenius (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"In the first decades of the 20th century" - does the source give enough to make this a bit more specific?
There are multiple sources, all from the 1900s and 1910s. Sadly there is not a single source that covers all this. Epicgenius (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Occasionally, the managers had to remove dead guests' bodies from the hotel" - I wish I had access to Tippins, but as I don't, what is the source text for this.
"Occasionally, the association's manager had to dispose of the body of a deceased guest." I have rephrased this to avoid overly close paraphrasing. Epicgenius (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Knott operation: "The hotel's bellhops and waiters were by then largely African-American, while switchboard operators and desk clerks called residents by their nicknames" feels like it should be two distinct sentences to me. Might be an American English thing, but to me it should be something like "Most of the hotel's bellhops and waiters were African-American by this time."
I've split the sentences. I think your wording works better and will implement it. Epicgenius (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bard, Gross, and Krauss operation: "The hotel went bankrupt after the last member of the Chelsea Association died around 1941" - was this a cause-and-effect, or a coincidence?
I think this was coincidental. Epicgenius (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Optional: Bard, Gross, and Krauss operation: "[sold] to the Chelsea Hotel Company" made me wonder what this was - the name suggests it was set up specifically for that purpose. Any more details about that company that could be added?
I agree that the company may have been formed merely as a holding company for the hotel. Unfortunately, I can't find other details about this company. Epicgenius (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stanley Bard operation: "Film director Ethan Hawke, a onetime resident, recalled that Stanley charged residents different rates based on whether he liked them" - the archive.org link doesn't include the part that verifies this, so you could remove that link.
1960s and 1970s: "to the dismay of younger residents" - is this called out in the source? I imagine that the dismay would be more general.
I don't actually have the book with me (I'm using a Google Books preview), but I think it was. In any case, though, I've removed the "dismay" part. Epicgenius (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1960s and 1970s: Spot check on "a brothel also operated openly within the hotel" - no issues.
1980s to 2000s: "Unfounded rumors of a potential sale circulated in 2000" The ProQuest Citation is OK for verifiability, but the supporting text is on page 19 of Life: the Observer Magazine (which came with the newspaper) rather than in the main paper, and "Life" is not part of the article title. "the recent focus of mobid rumours of its imminent sale" doesn't explicitly say it was in 2000 but is not too much of a stretch.
I have rephrased this to "Unfounded rumors of a potential sale were circulating by the end of the 20th century". Strangely, I only have access to the full text on ProQuest, not the original scans of the Observer article, so I did not realize that "Life" wasn't actually part of the title. I think I've fixed it. Epicgenius (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, The Observer source is on newspapers.com but there are a couple of versions thre for that date, one of which is missing the relevant pages. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1980s to 2000s: Spot check on "rooms without toilets tended to be more popular among long-term residents" - I see the source supporting this view for Rene Ricard but not more widely.
Honestly I have no idea how that crept in there, but I don't think that factoid belongs, anyway. I've removed it. Epicgenius (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Chetrit and Scheetz operation: Spot check on "after tenants alleged that the renovation created toxic dust and allowed mold and rust to spread" - no issues.
BD Hotels takeover: "To convince mayor Bill de Blasio to approve further changes, Drukier and Born sent tens of thousands of dollars to various funds for de Blasio" - no issues.
Spot check on " balcony fell off the facade in 1986, injuring two passersby" - no issues.
Spot check on "prompting a lawsuit from Kaufman" - no issues.
Notable residents
"The Chelsea's residents over the years have come from all social classes" - feels a bit redundant here, but fine to keep it.
"Particularly under Stanley Bard's tenure, New York magazine wrote that "people who lived in the hotel slept together as often as they celebrated holidays together"" - I think the "Particularly under Stanley Bard's tenure" should be moved (to after "wrote that", or to after "holidays together")
I have gone with the latter. Epicgenius (talk) 15:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spot check on "wrote his book Naked Lunch there" - not mentioned in the Padnani source. Verified by both the Daily News and Washington Post sources; only one of which is really needed. It seems likely that there are some redundant citations in the ist of residents, although this isn't anything that would be a blocker to GA status.
I trimmed the source that didn't support this fact. Epicgenius (talk) 15:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Peter Brook, director, stayed there temporarily" - is the "stayed there temporarily" needed, given the intro ".. who lived or stayed..." ?
Nope. It has now been removed. Epicgenius (talk) 15:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spot check on "shot photographs for her book Sex in room 822 during 1992" - room and event verified by previews of the cited source, but not the year. If it isn't explicit in the soruce, maybe "shot photographs for her book Sex (1992) in room 822"
I've reworded it accordingly; I meant to say that the book was published in 1992. Epicgenius (talk) 15:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Impact
Spot check on "Life magazine characterized the hotel in 1964 as "New York's most illustrious third-rate hotel" - no issues
Spot check on "owing to its squalor and large number of notable residents" - I didn't see this as a reasoning for the Life description supported in the source.
Yeah, that might be synthesis—I've removed it. Epicgenius (talk) 15:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Architectural and hotel commentary: a couple of references to "the Times" - in the UK readers might think of The Times, despite the mention early in the section of the NYT; optionally, consider adding the "New York"
Music: "two songs about it, "Cohen later wrote two songs about it, "Chelsea Hotel" and "Chelsea Hotel No. 2"" - is it really two songs? My reading of the Rolling Stone article that it is one, despite the title. (Not a big deal.)
Honestly, I don't know (I never listened to the song(s) in question). The Rolling Stone article seems to describe No. 2 as another incarnation of the first song. I've rephrased it accordingly. Epicgenius (talk) 15:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Music: Bob Dylan wrote the songs "Visions of Johanna",[255][392] "Sara",[78][286] and "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" there." - the cited sources don't verify that "Sara" was written there. (I don't think it was.) I won't go down the rabbithole of whether "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" was really written at the Chelsea - lots of reliable sources say that it was.
Optionally, consider adding a Template:Inflation to the values in "an estimated cost of $350,000", "for as little as $1.50 per night" etc.
I will do this shortly. Epicgenius (talk) 15:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Inonsistent linking of publications in the text. e.g. Financial Times and New-York Tribune are not linked, Chicago Tribune is not linked at the first instance.
@BennyOnTheLoose, thanks for the review. I've addressed almost all of your remaining comments, including adding links to publications in the prose. I still have to add the inflation templates, though. – Epicgenius (talk) 18:28, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose, I've now added inflation templates for all pre-1990 figures. Thanks again for the review. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.