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Kostur, "the other name of the town" (and not the prefecture), is not just Bulgarian as 207.96.224.163 claims in his edit. It's equally used by the Bulgarians, the Macedonian Slavs, and I guess it's probably used by other Slavic people as well. Feel free to edit the article and include any information about the name Kostur, as long as it doesn't contradict with the above. Etz Haim 10:00, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would support this claim by providing link to the 3rd Military Mapping Survey of Austria-Hungary, from around 1910: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/39-40.jpg and http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/39-41.jpg Whole map: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm Impossible to have so much Slavic toponyms without respective population... Sergejptr (talk) 22:46, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Is there a reason for the south slavic name to be prominently featured in this article, if not to establish that there is a significant south slavic minority there? (which is not true).--Avg 15:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Historically, there has been a large Slavic-speaking population in Kastoria and the region around it. In general, in WP, we try to be inclusive rather than exclusive about things like this. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Names issues for discussion. In many cases, there is a full section of the article about the name (e.g. Bitola or Istanbul), but when there is not, it makes sense to put it in the header. --Macrakis 16:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I have to disagree. There has never been a large Slavic population in Kastoria, just a small minority, who recently has become very vocal. There is no special reason whatsoever to refer to a Greek city with its non-Greek name. So you want to compare it with Istanbul. Has Kastoria ever been under Slavic rule? Was the capital of some Slavic empire? No. And still, the name Constantinople is not mentioned in the first line of the article. And who would even IMAGINE to write it with Greek letters! Turkish people would be offended and perhaps rightly so. You refer to Bitola. Same here. Bitola was a Byzantine/Ottoman city officially named Monastiri, it's perfectly normal for this name to be mentioned there. But Kustur, why? When this city was officially named Kustur and by whom? --Avg 02:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
"In 1892 the Kostur (Kastoria) parish school council adopted the proposal of a group of teachers 'to eliminate both Bulgarian and Greek and introduce Macedonian as the language of instruction in the town school'.... However, the Greek bishop and the Turkish governor of the city prevented this from taking place." (Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Princeton University Press, 1995. ISBN 0691043566, p. 62) So apparently in 1892, both Bulgarian and Greek were being taught in the Kastoria schools, and the parish council was predominantly Slavic-speaking. --Macrakis 13:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It's nice that you have a citation, but unless I completely misunderstood what the passage says, the group of teachers proposed to introduce "Macedonian" as the language of instruction, this means that it was never actually taught in any school. Moreover, since the proposal was never implemented, it means that never "Macedonian" was an official language there, unlike Greek for Bitola and Istanbul. What it can be inferred is that at some point in history, there has been a larger South Slavic minority than nowadays, which still though was not a majority, since it could not influence administrative decisions. Again, unlike Bitola and Istanbul. I'd also like to contrast this case with Xanthi or Komotini. There is a large and established Muslim and Turkish speaking minority there, hence it is a logical step to have a reference to their Turkish names. Nobody objects to that. But Kastoria's case (as almost all FYROMian claims) is an artificial issue.--Avg 14:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Not only did the teachers propose it, but the parish school council passed this proposal. The previous state of affairs was apparently that both Greek and Bulgarian were being taught -- which already tells us that there was a substantial South Slavic-speaking community. The new proposal was that only Macedonian be taught, so the Slavic-speaking population must have been very strong in the parish school council to eliminate Greek! As for "influencing administrative issues", the passage does address that. The Ottoman empire was not any sort of democracy!
As for 'official' languages, I don't see the relevance. Of course Greek was the administrative language of the Byzantine empire, and Ottoman Turkish was the administrative language of the Ottoman Empire, but that is not what we are discussing here. Greek, Albanian, Slavic, etc. names continued to be used throughout the region, and are worth documenting. Some of the regional languages, such as Ladino in Thessaloniki and Vlach throughout the region, have never been the official languages of any government entity, yet again are worth documenting.
The situation in Xanthi and Komotini has to do, as I'm sure you know, with the population exchange of 1923. Before 1923, there were Turkish-speakers in many more areas. And in any case, the Ottoman Turkish names in all of the Ottoman domains in Europe are worth mentioning for historical reasons. --Macrakis 14:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Kastoriá → Kastoria – For reasons of consistency - no (or very few) other articles on Greek places use the accents in the titles. --Telex 00:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Don't know about Macedonian, but kostur means 'perch' (genus of fish) in Bulgarian. It might have a connection to 'skeleton', though, because the root is kost (bone). Anyway, we'd need a source for that one. Todor→Bozhinov 09:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I had a talk in the talkpage of the new user who posted that information, and am copying it here for others to comment:
Titled: Thanks...
...for your additions in Kastoria in the Jewish community section. I would appreciate if you could also cite the source for these events, especially given that most of them may create quite bit of controversy. Those are terrible facts you included there, and they should of course be mentioned provided they are sourced by reliable sources. I found especially appalling the fact that certain compatriots of mine confiscated Jewish properties unilaterally, and since I consider that highlighting one's past mistakes can only lead to improvement, I would be most grateful if you could include the sources. NikoSilver 12:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your guidance to this wiki-newbie I think I did this incorrectly the first time and emailed you instead of adding to this talk page... here's what I'd sent you-
Please find the following references regarding the requested citations.
1) "In 1943 the Jewish population in Kastoria numbered over 980"
2) "By the end of the war in 1945, 38 of the original population survived -the vast majority of the community killed in concentration camps"
Besides the spoken word during interviews I've conducted with many of the survivors, there is a monument in the Saint Athanasios area of Kastoria that details these facts and their numbers (the monument rounds the numbers expressing 1000 in the community and only 35 surviving, but my research showed slightly different results).
I posted photos of the monument for you at: http://longbeachreunion.com/images/Kastoria_1.jpg http://longbeachreunion.com/images/Memorial.jpg
3) "The survivors who returned to Kastoria found their homes occupied by villagers who claimed the properties as their own."
Although I know this to be a fact verified by many of the surviving Kastoriali Jews I don't have a published reference for it yet -but will work on it & get back to you. Please note that, unfortunately, it is absolutely true (it was actually a common event to many surviving Jews all over Europe).
4) "Those remaining men who struggled to stay in their hometown were subsequently drafted and served in the Greek army to fight the communists during the Greek civil war".
I suppose I'll have to work on getting a published reference for this one also- Again, forgive me if my freshman status to Wikipedia is causing me to ask stupid questions... but many of these facts are likely unpublished yet can be verified through photos and interview testimony. It would be a shame to omit such points when they are absolutely true. How do I get a reference for such a point?
Revision: Ok, I see the laws about No Original Research.... I suppose that makes sense- Ok, I'm learning. Gotta get some published stuff to you-
One site I'm looking through is: http://www.sephardicstudies.org/
I suppose I've got homework to do-
5) "By 1950, most of the scattered remnants of the Jewish community eventually decided to leave Greece entirely". I don't believe this point is likely to be challenged, but if you require I will attempt to find references for it.
6) "As of June, 2007 one Jewish family remains in Kastoria."
This is common knowledge among any of the residents in Kastoria. This fact is definitely not likely to be challenged by anyone with any bit of knowledge of the city. However, in consideration and privacy to the one Jewish family that remains in Kastoria- perhaps the line should just be deleted anyway.
If possible, I would appreciate a reply to let me know if I'm going about this properly or not. Thanks again-
Four tildes eh? Let's see here...
LMRusso 15:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I buggered up the footnoting of the content I added, to meet the request for citations. The process boggles. The sandbox was no help. This is painful, but at least the content is now cited, however artlessly. Don'tDoWindows (talk) 03:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm from Kastoria and I assure you that the lake's name is Orestida and NOT Orestiada. Is a mistake that I noticed also in many internet sites that are referring to Kastoria. So, the name Orestiada often is been confusing with the city of Orestiada in Evros, but the name Orestida is originated to the main ancient area of Kastoria and in particular the city of Argos Orestiko. Greek speaking user "google" the word "Orestida", there are some links that clear up my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Didgerman (talk • contribs) 11:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The wider geographic area is identified with the are of ancient Orestida, where the Orestes -"Macednoi", as Hirodotus calls them- lived. In Pentavriso, in the summer of 1999, came to light a very important sculpture ever found in Kastoria. It is the most ancient tomb anaglyph of the Upper Macedonia and one of the best classical works ever discovered in the entire Macedonia. This part of the tomb monument represents the calm and sad face of a woman who lived and died here 24 centuries ago (one generation before Philippos 2nd). At that time, Orestida was an independent kingdom that already participated actively in the political things of Greece.
This work of art, though, proves that Orestida was actively participating in civilisation and aesthetics of the central Greece, as its style reveals that of Vioitia, Attica in the post- Parthenon era (40013C).
I have removed the unsourced paragraph added by the anonymous IP user. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 04:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Re this, why would anyone name a town after a skeleton? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
In a bid to make Greek Macedonia appear less Greek and more "Macedonian", a well-known hardcore nationalist is digging up every trivial figure from FYROM that happened to be born in Greek Macedonia and inserting them in the respective article of the Greek city they were born in or near. This becomes obvious when the editor has the gall to suggest that they deserve to be mentioned because of their ethnicity, for example here [4]. This is tantamount to admitting to POV-pushing, brazenly and openly (and I might add, stupidly). In this article, it appears to be a minor politico named Jagnula Kunovska who was born in a village near Kastoria but moved to FYROM pretty soon afterward. She is not notable, since she is unheard of outside of her own country (and ethnic diasporas do NOT count), and there are no neutral, secondary sources in English attesting to her notability. Furthermore, she is not really from Kastoria, since she was merely born there, but grew up in Yugoslavia, which is what really counts. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
References
note6
was invoked but never defined (see the help page)."Slavs were never a significant presence in Kastoria"'!?!?.
There is an wiki article about the historic catholic titular see in Castoria. Perhaps we should add this name also in a section of historic names of the city and add this link above as a see also: [[7]] or to add this as See Also section. We should propably add more things in the history section of the article,the occupation of Franks and the Kingdom of Thessalonica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagrand (talk)
Why were the references about the bulgarian language in the Kastoria region removed?
These are a legitimate sources from the consuls of France (François Charles Pouqueville) and Austro-Hungary (Peter Occuli). Two of the biggest empires/states of that time. Also the Leonard's Heft "World's Chronic" is well respected.
Should I remind you that this is a section for the history of the city? The modern politics should not be involved.
Please provide with an appropriate explanation why this was removed or it shall be added again. If you have doubts about the conclusion to which this facts lead, please explain as well.
Thank you and in the same time I await your timely answer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.90.0.97 (talk) 06:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Removed this [8], which is frankly quite confusing. A 15th century dictionary, and moreover I do not see the Kastrioti family or Kastoria mentioned anywhere. The information is interesting to be sure, but this is precisely the sort of thing for which we need a secondary source to interpret the primary one. Athenean (talk) 18:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Castoria urbs tradens appellationem ex cognomine fui auctoris, nimirum praedcti inuistissimi e fortissimi epiroti principis georgij castriotae; a castriota, castoria corrupte nucupatur, castoria castra
Actually looking better at the latin passage, it seems like the city takes the name from the Kastrioti family. Kastoria takes its name from the last name of its founder, the prince of the Epirotes, George Kastriota Skanderbeg. Then the second sentence, I admit to not understand. --Sulmues Let's talk 22:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
i remember the whole connection of the name kastrioti and kastoria but are we sure that bardhi wasnt just pseudoetymologizing here..? do modern historians accept that his family had any actual connection to the area? as for the actual etymology of the family from what ive seen the name kastrioti comes from latin castrum or perhaps its greek adaptation rather which is kastron..kastriotis would mean 'inhabitant of the kastron' (no im not claiming skanderbeg was greek just in case another offended albanian sees this..)87.202.36.16 (talk) 23:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I really didn't appreciate this edit Alexi. Haxhillazi has a publication based on the National Archives of Albania. It's a reliable fresh source from a 1999 book. --Sulmues (talk) 21:03, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Please avoid wp:npa. It appears you are again into a new wp:own initiative. This work is simply partisan and far from considered wp:rs. It has been already rejected at talk:Louros (seems this wasn't enough to perform the second blind revert- while I have only one and explained why I did it).Alexikoua (talk) 21:21, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
25.000 Albanians in Kastoria region??? For God's sake!! Just take a look here :http://www.mmkm.kcl.ac.uk/content/lists/maps.htm or at Vasil Kanchov's census. It is high time it stopped this game with propagandists such as Sulmues and Zjarri.National Archives of Albania is proved to be an unreliable source Parapente (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parapente (talk • contribs) 21:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
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The original formula "The Serbian, Bulgarian and Macedonian name of the city..." was at one point changed by an IP editor to "The Serbian, Bulgarian and Slavic name of the city...". Since then some attempts have been made to reintroduce the Macedonian language link, but this has been reverted.
In my opinion, the formula "Serbian, Bulgarian and Slavic" does not make sense. Both Serbian and Bulgarian are Slavic languages, so the sentence is ridiculous. The (Slavic) Macedonian language is treated by Wikipedia as a distinct language, and it is this language that is the most relevant Slavic language in the area. Not mentioning it looks like POV to me.
An alternative would be to just say "The Slavic name of the city...", but this would require sources to show that the name is the same also in other Slavic languages. Also, this is not how such things usually are treated in Wikipedia. So I really do not see any better option than to bring back the former formula. --T*U (talk) 20:13, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Demetrios1993 and Dimadick: I don't see the relevance of Castor and Pollux to this article. Similarly, there would be no reason to put this under the category Category:Beavers just because the name probably comes from the word for beaver. --Macrakis (talk) 20:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
References