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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Now that the talk page is creeping over 100kB, may we change the talk page archive period to 7 days? --Jax 0677 (talk) 02:00, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Now that there is publicly available bodycam footage that has been released by Louisville PD showing Kenneth Walker falsely claiming upon being arrested that Breonna fired the 9 mm and not himself, it warrants inclusion in the article.
In the video Kenneth Walker while being detained states "What did I do??" and then cries out "We heard banging at the door and yelled back in confusion" to which one of the police officers responds "No, no we yelled three times police warrant we need to search the apartment". He explains that his girlfriend is dead inside the apartment and then when asked where he is responds "She's in the hall-way", the officer then asks "What kind of gun did she shoot" and Kenneth responds "It's a 9, it's a regular 9 mm", the officer then asks "Did she shoot it or did you shoot it? and Walker responds "It was her, she was scared".
Also, photographs included in the police report show at the night of the shooting in her apartment there was mail addressed to Jamarcus Glover and this ought to be included as well in the body since there seems to be the notion that she had nothing to do with him, which is unlikely given the fact Kenneth said later in his official story that he initially thought it was her ex (convicted criminal Jamarcus Glover) who was entering the apartment.
Here is the source, https://www.wdrb.com/news/body-camera-video-shows-frantic-moments-after-fatal-raid-on-breonna-taylors-home/article_1ec98154-080c-11eb-a45c-abdc67f16c12.html as I have not been part of the formation of this article so I will let someone who has been working on it add this portion in somewhere. Pformenti (talk) 07:21, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
It was evident I am pretty sure that she was not the shooter so no source alleged she was, this is more to include the chronology of events following Kenneth Walker's arrest, here is another article talking about him blaming the shooting on Breonna upon being arrested. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8815125/New-bodycam-footage-shows-Breonna-Taylors-boyfriend-screaming-girlfriends-dead.html there is this source - Shouldn't we source the bodycam video since it's a primary source? Pformenti (talk) 16:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
It’s not certainly false that he lied and told the police Breonna fired the 9 mm gun it’s viewable on video from the bodycam footage. Pformenti (talk) 17:04, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Support - @Albertaont:, @JJonahJackalope: and @FloNight:, Now that this article is above 100kB, I support the creation of a new article entitled Breonna Taylor protests. Thoughts? --Jax 0677 (talk) 21:26, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
Note Earlier discussion archived here.—Bagumba (talk) 01:45, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Support - @Jax 0677: but only if you have time. I think the protests might have died down as new protests currently seem to be focused on the San Bernandino shooting. Albertaont (talk) 05:03, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
"Breonna Taylor, a 26-year-old unarmed African-American woman, was fatally shot ..."
Word ordering. "Unarmed" is a description of her state at the time that she was shot and not an ongoing description of who she is/was as a person. As such, the adjective "unarmed" does not belong between "26-year-old" and "African-American woman". I suggest therefore that the adjective "unarmed" belongs a little later in the sentence. E.g. "Breonna Taylor, a 26-year-old African-American woman, was fatally shot while unarmed ... " In this way the sentence separates (a) who is Breonna Taylor from (b) the circumstances of her death.
Thank you for your consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobysharp (talk • contribs) 12:19, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus at this time. Participants disagree on which title would be more CONSISTENT with similar articles. The below-mentioned RFC could address these inconsistencies, so the title may be reassessed after that discussion is closed. Opposers also cited the relatively recent previous RM, so it may be easier to find consensus after some more time passed and the subject case possibly develops further. (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 01:05, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Shooting of Breonna Taylor → Killing of Breonna Taylor – Per established WP:CONSISTENT titles: [3]. Taylor was killed, not just get shot. That she was killed is why this article mostly exists. Albertaont (talk) 05:19, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Not sure how much it matters, but the article's background section talks briefly about an Adrian Walker and their relationship to the initial Police Department investigation. On Thursday, Adrain Walker was found dead of a gun-related shooting. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:38, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Dream Focus: Hello! In this edit summary, you said, "When referring to a race, Black and White are capitalized, unless its in a quote from someone". Could you please provide a link to where the Wikipedia Manual of Style says that? I'm not disagreeing, I just want to see it in the MOS. Thanks. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Hello everybody. The other discussion has been closed, as "Consensus against updating MOSCAPS to capitalize "Black" when used as a racial or ethnic descriptor." Again, that's at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Proposed update to MOSCAPS regarding racial terms. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:35, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Jamarcus Glover's series of conflicting statements about Taylor's handling or not handling of money related to his non-legal recreational drug trafficking keeps getting re-written into a smooth narrative where he supposedly simply describes Taylor holding money for him, sometimes with an edit summary about fixing a “mess” of a paragraph.
Breonna Taylor, remember, as a recently deceased person, is covered by the WP:BLP policy (and note that this page is marked
((Ds/talk notice|topic=blp))
); so, endeavoring to prevent this passage from getting re-written again to make it sound like more of an accusation of criminal involvement than it actually is, I have created a subsection header for it and prominently marked it as a series of conflicting and contradictory statements. Please don't try to re-write it into a coherent narrative or remove the cited statement that Breonna Taylor was never named as a defendant in the drug trafficking investigation. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 16:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Sarsath3 (talk) 00:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
The article says "Fired a warning shot that struck the police officer" by your own definition on Wikipedia that is not a warning shot. A warning shot is a artillery shot fired Into the air not horizontally towards someone. Clipfacegun (talk) 03:09, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
the Background section: "Glover had cohabited with Taylor and said the police had pressured him to move out of Taylor's residence for unspecified reasons.[37]". The article referenced says Glover was pressured to move away from Elliott Avenue. Breonna Taylor's home address was on Springfield Drive: "...detectives repeatedly pressured him about leaving the Elliott Avenue home months before the March 13 raid." Fosterloti (talk) 01:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi there. The article says that a "warning shot" was fired (according to Walker), but a look at the sources provided shows only one supporting this and [4] [5] [6] three say nothing about it being a warning shot. Also, how could it be a warning shot if it hit someone? To include a claim like this (even when attributed to Walker) seems wrong. Kind regards, Willbb234Talk (please ((ping)) me in replies) 20:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
When police burst in, Walker, a licensed gun owner, said he fired a single shot at the ground as a warning shot, thinking there were intruders trying to break in. Police immediately returned fire.[8]—Bagumba (talk) 05:10, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
hello world — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.205.247 (talk) 22:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
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In Reactions, September 2020: "In Seattle, a police officer rode a bicycle over a man's head."
The officer never was riding the bicycle. The word 'rode' gives the complete wrong context to what actually happened. Recommend something like: "In Seattle, a police officer was walking his bike along the road when he deliberately rolled it over a man's head."
Source has no information about what happened: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2020/09/24/are-we-a-banana-republic-490423
Halfway down page source previously used: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/24/breonna-taylor-charging-decision-protests/
Sources show what happened: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-seattle-officer-appearing-roll-over-protester-s-head-bike-n1241012 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/25/seattle-police-bike-protester-head/ https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-seattle-cop-rolls-bike-over-protester-head-video-shows-20200924-qrm756yxgrek7dbkbrfcf7wmoy-story.html
In Seattle, as a result of a Seattle Police Department use of force investigation, an unnamed police officer was placed on administrative leave after rolling both wheels of his bicycle over the head of a protester lying in the street. The incident was referred to the King County Sheriff's Office for a potential criminal investigation.with your first two sources and a ref to the SPD press release. For future reference, Fregiouaherth, see Wikipedia:Edit requests.
I think that describing the police officers' skin colour is entirely unnecessary and should be removed. JohnStrelley (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
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I think that the police officers' skin colour does not need to be included in their description. It is unnecessary information that assumes racism or racial motivation. JohnStrelley (talk) 16:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
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Change "but Taylor was hit by six bullets and died" to "but Taylor was hit by six bullets and killed" BreakfastCalzone (talk) 08:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Remove the word white from the article. “Breonna Taylor, a 26-year-old African-American woman, was fatally shot in her Louisville, Kentucky, apartment on March 13, 2020, when **white** plainclothes officers Jonathan Mattingly, Brett Hankison, and Myles Cosgrove of the Louisville Metro Police Department (LMPD) forced entry into the apartment as part of an investigation into drug dealing operations.“ The officers had very little visual of the people inside, so it has no context to mention the race of officers and the accidental victim. Kebabai į namus (talk) 14:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi, if it is right to keep "white" in here, then why don't you go add "African-american" to the shooting of Justine Damond. She was an innocent Caucasian woman, who got killed by police officer Mohamed Noor in Minneapolis. KJ4488 (talk) 02:46, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Bagumba, you cannot remove the fact that Kenneth Walker initially told the police Breonna shot at the police when initially being arrested and then add a Vice article about the witness changing his mind a week after endless publicity of the event and death threats he received to change his reporting of the event. In a trial law or any judicial system, witnesses cannot simply change their recounting of events when it's convenient for them, which is clear as day in this case. So I wonder unless you want to push a POV why you would decide it's not relevant to include the fact Walker lied to the police and blamed Breonna for the shooting but it's relevant to mention the neighbor changed his mind a week after everything. It seems as if only things that push blame or fault on the police are allowed onto the article.
Please explain.
Pformenti (talk) 20:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Bagumba, you cannot remove the fact ...I don't recall removing it. I see where it was removed by Bueller 007. There was no consensus for its inclusion at Talk:Shooting_of_Breonna_Taylor/Archive_4#New_BodyCam_Footage_and_Vice_special_update. Saying Walker "lied" seems WP:OR, and would need reliable sources too.—Bagumba (talk) 04:45, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
If it's not crucial to understanding the shooting, I'd err on the side of WP:NOTDIARY and leave it out.Walker fired the gun, not Taylor There's little/no doubt about it. Sometimes Wikipedia is too caught up with inconsequential details about how we came to know something, as opposed to just saying what we know now. I don't see it being relevant. It potentially opens up Pandora's box. Would we then need to add more NPOV that the police threatened Walker:
You’re going to f***ing prison, that’s what going on.[9]—Bagumba (talk) 06:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Walker said an officer asked him if he was hit with any bullets. When he said no, the officer replied: "That’s unfortunate."(source), which is mentioned a lot. I'm not sure we really learn much about what happened from the quote
You’re going to f***ing prison, that’s what going onand it seems reliable sources quote it less (cursory google search, could be wrong!) but it could provide context for what ABC News said: "[Walker] said he told police it had been Breonna because he was scared", though it may be WP:SYNTH to put the statements next to each other. I don't think it opens up a "pandora's box" situation though, what else of the new information do you think we should include? I don't think there's much. To be clear here, I don't think "NPOV" means we should add as many statements that you think makes one party ""look bad"" as makes the other party ""look bad"", I think NPOV just means we give due weight to what reliable sources discuss, you shouldn't be thinking of things in the former terms. Volteer1 (talk) 07:06, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Bagumba, we do have reliable sources which make mention of this and it's certainly not minutiae considering the amount of detail in this article. We have given you: Independent News (foreign news reporting about an event in America) and WDRB local news station for Kentucky (the state where it happened) who I also may add didn't edit the bodycam footage like Vice did to purposely leave out the part where Kenneth Walker tried to blame the shooting on his girlfriend, Breonna.
Lastly, here is what you said to me a year ago when I first brought this up before Bueller 007 deleted mine and another editor's edits.
"It’s not certainly false that he lied and told the police Breonna fired the 9 mm gun it’s viewable on video from the bodycam footage. Pformenti (talk) 17:04, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Per WP: ONUS, we don't automatically include −everything just because it is true. It does not seem his retracted statement is receiving continued scrutiny.—Bagumba (talk) 02:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)"
You seem to be particularly attached and defensive about this page, guarding it to the point where you refuse to allow anything even remotely negative or lending credibility to any other position/argument exist. 2 reliable sources and a video... at what point are we just curating the truth with these highly politicized encyclopedia articles. Pformenti (talk) 06:50, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
So, I'll say this again: do not personalize conflicts, and do not willy-nilly accuse editors and admins of 'whitewashing'.[10] Nobody WP:OWNs pages—not me, not you.
We have given you: Independent News ...: No, that would be Volteer1, not you. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 07:09, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
You literally just accused me of personalizing conflicts and then did it yourself in the same sentence. I was not personalizing an attack, I was simply pointing out that you have been watch-dogging this article and I felt like a consensus was not reached and my addition to the page had a carpet thrown over it. I am not trying to own this page or allege you own it, I just think that the article should have this included and I had added it and felt the justification for removing it to be weak given how much it's been covered as Volteer1 has provided a list of reliable sources. I provided the Louisville source and brought up the subject in the first place, so yes he provided Independent News, not me. I'm happy to argue a point badly when it's over something that obviously warrants inclusion on this page. Pformenti (talk) 08:45, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
I clarified here that Walker reversing his statement was not a reversal that they did not hear the police announce themselves. That part is undisputed, and presumably why all criminal charges against Walker were permanently dropped.—Bagumba (talk) 08:23, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
We are splitting hairs here, why is better to have "While"? that sounds like you are making a case for defending the fact he lied to the arresting officer since he later changed his mind.
For instance, which of the two sentences sounds more neutral?
"Bagumba walked to the store and spat out his gum on the floor, but later on picked it up"
"While Bagumba walked to the store and spat out his gum on the floor, he later picked it up".
Hopefully, the former since it is not adding a qualifier for his actions. We are splitting hairs here, if you are making the argument that it's over grammatical correctness please explain how my revision is not grammatically correct. You added the part of him claiming to not hear the police as the introductory sentence of the section even though it's mentioned already in the article ad nauseum. Keep in mind, I'm not fighting you on that but can we agree on keeping the language as encyclopedic and neutral as possible? All I ask, hope you don't take this to heart you are a good editor. Pformenti (talk) 06:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
please stop reverting, give it a rest. This is not your article, nor is it anyone's fault but your own that you forgot "but" and didn't leave an edit summary. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 06:18, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
You added the part of him claiming to not hear the police: There was no issues brought up at #Not hearing police. I've removed it, and left the part about thinking they were intruders.—Bagumba (talk) 06:38, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
Okay thank you Pformenti (talk) 06:40, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
@NonReproBlue and AlsoWukai: have been to and froing over whether a statement in the article should say "None of the officers involved in the raid have been charged in Taylor's death" or "None of the officers involved in the raid has been charged in Taylor's death". Unless a reference is found to actually support the statement, it will be removed anyway. The current reference does not support it. 04:47, 4 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moriori (talk • contribs)
None of the three officers were directly charged in Taylor's death.[11] There's another source in the body as well.—Bagumba (talk) 05:19, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Depending on the context it can be either (although to my ear "none has" will always sound weird). In this context however, "have" is correct, and is in line with the source which uses the plural "were". If the source said "was", there would be a better argument for "has". I would be open to listening to a compelling argument as to why I am wrong, but simply reverting with an edit summary of "no" is not a compelling argument. NonReproBlue (talk) 08:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 19:33, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Shooting of Breonna Taylor → Killing of Breonna Taylor – Per WP:DEATHS: 'Shooting of...' 'Stabbing of...' etc. should only be used when the person in question did not die. This convention was published as part of WikiProject Death in December 2020 to establish a neutral and consistent naming convention around deaths on Wikipedia, and did not exist during the last RM for this page in October 2020. All killings by police officers listed on Wikipedia since December 2020 have adopted this naming convention, including Duante Wright, Ma'Khia Bryant, Christan Hall, Adam Toledo, Dolal Idd, Andre Hill, and more. Combefere ❯❯❯ Talk 12:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
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x when white plainclothes officers
y when plainclothes officers
remove the word "white" from the above sentence as it was clearly written by someone who is racist against white people. Noisany76 (talk) 15:39, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Police say that they had a complaint but no one seem say where it was coming from. The "White" police men said that they had to check Taylors room but didnt have a warrent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.16.99.84 (talk) 20:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
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There is no image of a search warrant anywhere on the page: [1] I7773 (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
((edit semi-protected))
template. There's no need for an image of a search warrant. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
References
There's sources that he used her address. But i don't see sources that they lived together (recent change) or the previous text "cohabitated".[12].—Bagumba (talk) 04:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
... repeatedly pressured him about leaving the Elliott Avenue home months before the March 13 raid.[14] They are different places.—Bagumba (talk) 08:58, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
The recent, unexplained revert by KYLE5112 introduced multiple inaccuaracies:
—Bagumba (talk) 05:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
There has been no support for the removal of "white". Per WP:NOCONSENSUS: In discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit.
It seems to have been restored a few days ago.[19]—Bagumba (talk) 17:25, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm offended that they feel the need to emphasize the fact the officers are white. Why couldn't the just say officers? 2600:6C44:B7F:E791:C9F:1FE0:CFEE:56FD (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
The clarification of what race either party was, is irrelevant to this story. Until we stop making everything about race, we'll always will have racial problems. I suggest removing anything that has to do with race from this article. The incident involved incompetent officers that didn't correctly do their jobs. 184.6.13.178 (talk) 20:51, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
References
— Mudwater (Talk) 22:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
The article mentions that the officer fired shots that hit a neighbouring occupied house. They stated that he was reprimanded for endangering the white people in that home.
Did the law specify that the occupants must be white for the officers actions to have constituted misconduct?
I understand that it is relevant to specify the officers and the victims race given the context and the social perception of the killing. However I fail to see the relevance of the genetics of innocent and somewhat irrelevant people.
It seems to imply that the race of the neighbours had some sort of effect on the proceeding events.
RIP Breonna Taylor 49.196.44.131 (talk) 02:30, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
Aguiar told WFPL News he knows Napper and Etherton are white and that the upstairs neighbors are Black because he has met them.
Lawrence said he doesn’t know how Napper or Etherton identify racially, but that they deserve justice, and so does Taylor.
“My apartment was hit, too,” David said. “The bullet that came through my floor right in front of my bedroom door, if that bullet went through my bed, maybe I would have been dead, too. I’m a human being, too.”
On September 23, 2020, a state grand jury indicted Hankison on three counts of wanton endangerment for endangering a neighboring family of three when shots he fired penetrated their apartment.123 He faced up to five years in prison and a fine for each count.3 Bullets also entered the upstairs apartment of another family but no charges were filed. An attorney for Taylor's family criticized this decision, stating: "Three counts for the shots into the apartment of the white neighbors, but no counts for the shots into the apartment of the Black neighbors upstairs above Breonna’s".45
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The section saying she was shot by 3 white officers is inappropriate. That statement makes this sound racist. Neither you or I was there. To know if the officers announced themselves. If this incident was reversed and the police were black and the residents were white, the police officers wouldn't be described as 3 black officers. How do you fight racism with racism. We are all people regardless of race. 2603:8000:6900:5773:1145:B3E8:9CAE:7921 (talk) 08:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
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Change “plainclothes officers” to officers in uniform. This info is based on the book “12 seconds in the dark” by Sgt. John Mattingly. 2601:601:8480:4FE0:4DB6:3583:C087:CC7E (talk) 00:55, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
((edit semi-protected))
template. We generally use secondary sources.—Bagumba (talk) 01:22, 17 March 2022 (UTC)This article should include a link to the first-hand account by John Mattingly. ASIN : B09QMHD92K https://www.amazon.com/12-Seconds-Dark-Officers-Firsthand-ebook/dp/B09QMHD92K — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:D80:BC0:64F3:3F4B:DBC0:59A3 (talk) 16:39, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
I am wary of the lead's treatment of these two topics, but currently unsure how to address this.
I agree with Bagumba that it may be difficult to confirm what exactly the officers wore other than body armor, but there does not appear to be dispute about the presence of the battering ram and shields. Although "plainclothes" is a repeated term throughout the sources, it may not be all too relevant if neither side could see each other. It is hard to see the significance of their uniforms in this case.
As intrigued by Mattingly's first-hand account as I am, I share Bagumba's concern that his book was published by a very far-right publication like The Daily Wire. I should note that I share a similar discomfort with The Daily Beast for being very far-left.
The "knock-and-announce" issue has been highly contentious. It looks like there is at least agreement on the "knock" part, in that Walker and neighbors described loud banging. We should be very critical of Walker's statements, and careful not to inadvertently portray them as statements of fact. Fortunately, some body cam footage after the shooting is widely available. In this video, you will notice contradictions in his statements versus information that has since been confirmed. He clearly says that it was Breonna who shot at the police, and he seems a bit slow to realize that he was dealing with the police the entire time. It is understandable they found it difficult to rely on his information and were compelled to clear the unit before tending to Breonna. And so, when the lead says "Walker said he did not hear any announcement, thought the officers were intruders, and fired a warning shot at them", we should be careful that this does not come across as a definitive assessment. Ender and Peter 20:21, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
We should be very critical of Walker's statements...: We write what reliable sources say and analyze about what happened. Wikipedia isn't the one that's being critical, per se. Witnesses retract statements all the time. We reflect what sources say, applying WP:DUE.—Bagumba (talk) 01:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
The placement of Walker's statement may be adding undue weight. In the lead, his statement appears to be the only thing refuting the claim that the police announced themselves. Walker has made a handful of contradictions/retractions, making the accuracy of this claim questionable.: The placement of Walker's story is consistent with that Detroit News link giving it prominent mention. It also seems to serve the reader to understand why the changes against Walker were dropped for firing at the police. The details about a witness saying the police announced themselves are in the body. FWIW (and stated already in the WP article), the witness also changed their story, originally saying, "nobody identified themselves".—Bagumba (talk) 04:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
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She wasn’t just shot. She was murdered. 2601:743:300:1960:94E2:A13A:E6CF:227A (talk) 10:38, 10 November 2022 (UTC)