This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of prophecies of Joseph Smith article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
I re-formatted the "alleged failed prophesies" list into table format, which I think reads a lot nicer. I also added date and source (D&C etc) information. I also added several alleged failed pr. to the list.
The obvious problem with this article is that the upper half of the article is "see, these prophesies came true" and the lower half is "see, these prophesies failed". Clearly, there should be a uniform presentation thru-out the article.
One approach would be to use a table for _all_ the prophesies. A new column could be added (to the new "failed prophesies" table) for "Church View" or "Apologists Interpretation". It could look like this:
Source | Date | Prophecy | Apologist's View | Critic's View |
---|---|---|---|---|
D&C 1:40 | 1829 | This is text of some prophecy that came true, indisputably | Here is how it came true: blah, blah. | -
|
D&C 1:42 | 1829 | This text of some prophesy that failed utterly | - | Here is how it failed: blah, blah.
|
D&C 2:33 | 1829 | Here is some prophecy that is debatable whether it was fulfilled or not. | Here is how it succeeded | The following parts of the prophesy did not occur: blah, blah |
The new table is arranged in chronological order, but I suppose it could also be arranged by source document.
If anyone has real heartburn with the new table, I wouldn't object too strongly to returning it to prose, but: 1) Please discuss here so we can discuss pros/cons and see what the best solution is; and 2) Do not delete any information that is currently in the table, especially the dates, sources, and "critics view" information.
Here is what that proposal would look like:
Source | Date | Prophecy | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
D&C 1:40 | Aug 12, 1829 | This is text of some prophecy that came true | Here are details that show why it came true (only if not obvious)
|
D&C 2:30 | Nov 12, 1829 | This is text of some prophecy is obvious to the layperson reader | [no notes necessary]
|
Source | Date | Prophecy | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
D&C 1:42 | Feb 4, 1830 | This text of some prophesy that failed | Here are some details explaining why it failed (only if not obvious).
|
D&C 2:33 | March 3, 1830 | Here is another prophecy, but its wording or source makes it debatable whether or not it is a genuine prophecy | Here is an explanation why some feel this item is not a prophecy |
Trodel: I used the new table format in the "controversial" prophesy section at the bottom of the article. What do you think? If you really hate it, Im not opposed to going back to prose, but - please - leave the new text/footnotes/dates intact ... I put a lot of work into establishing the links, etc. --Noleander (talk) 16:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Razarax: I support the new format as long as nothing was removed. The prose looks as if it contains much more information than the table. If info was removed, I say keep the prose. If all the info was kept and just put into the tables, then I support the tables.
I've got all the prophecies in the new, readable table format. I also consolidated all the prophecies into one uniform presentation, so they are no longer divided into two groups (apologetic and critical).
The only remaining task is to find dates for about a dozen prophecies that have unknown dates. If anyone could help with that, I'd appreciate it. --Noleander (talk) 02:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I was looking at the table of prophesies, but this one confused me:
Prophecy | Source | Date | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
Copyright sale - Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to find a copyright buyer in Canada. | Pearl of Great Price, JS-History 1:40 | 1829/1830
Winter |
They never found a buyer.<ref>Abanes, p 461</ref> |
Notice the source says "Pearl of Great Price, JS-History 1:40". The full text of JSH 1:40:
Where does that say anything about finding a copyright buyer in Canada (and what copyright are we talking about anyway?)? What am I missing? A quote from Abanes book for this section would help, if he's the one making the claim. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 16:14, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
One fundamental problem with starting with this entire article is that Joseph Smith once said that a prophet should only be considered a prophet when he says "Thus saith the Lord." The same thing applies to his prophecies. Many of these so-called prophecies fall into the category of predictions, not prophecies. This is a fundamental distinction that leads to premise fallacy that needs to be addressed in this entire article. Critics will say that it is a self-serving distinction on the part of believers, but it is, nonetheless, a distinction clearly made by Smith himself, and therefore renders the entire article subject to serious WP:NPOV issues if not addressed. Davidwhittle (talk) 19:03, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I deleted the former first prophecy, about Elijah coming, because it is a biblical prophecy, not a prophecy of Joseph Smith. It's straight from the book of Malachi, and Smith shouldn't get credit for Malachi's prophecy. Besides, the first documented evidence that the angel Moroni referred to Elijah during Smith's second vision was in 1838. But this was already two years after Smith said that Elijah had come to the Kirtland Temple in 1836. So even if it were Smith's own prophecy, it wasn't recorded until after the prophesied event already happened. Given these problems (mainly the fact that it wasn't a Smith prophecy at all), I deleted it. COGDEN 20:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the second prophecy, the "Jesus will come to his temple" prophecy, I think the same thing applies, and it ought to be deleted. This is another biblical prophecy made by Malachi, not a prophecy of Joseph Smith. We should not ascribe biblical prophecies to Joseph Smith merely because he repeated them. COGDEN 20:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have this book who can check to see if he is being used correctly, and not 'interpreted'? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Have to say I am very impressed with the re-writing of this article.
However why does it mention the Book of Abraham? His claimed translation is irrelevant, as it is not a "prophecy" and has nothing to do with the subject. Routerone (talk) 16:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Note: the list of prophecies in this article may have some copyright violation issues, so it has temporarily been removed (and an older, more out-of-date version of the pre-table content put in its place) to avoid legal problems. The table will be restored soon, in a format that doesn't have any copyright issues.
If you added any content into that table in the past few months, don't panic, it will most likely be restored soon. As with all copyright violation concerns, the content has also been removed from the article's history, so you won't find it there either.
Please avoid editing the "list of prophecies" text for a little while until we get this straightened out. Thanks. --Noleander (talk) 17:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
IP: Please provide sources for material you are adding to the article. In particular, the sources should be discussing the topic in the context of the prophecies, if possible. --Noleander (talk) 02:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
What is the point of this article? It appears to be an attempt to evaluate the accuracy of prophetic claims made by Joseph Smith, but the title thereof is "List of Prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr." This suggests that the article will contain ALL prophecies, whether or not they can be tested, or even were intended for people of our times. (I am thinking particularly about the many prophecies unique to the Book of Mormon, some of them about people and events described in the book. Whether Book of Mormon is a true record of ancient peoples is immaterial; those prophecies were given to us through Joseph Smith.) A GENUINE list of prophecies by Joseph Smith would demonstrate the sorts of subjects in the Latter-day Saint movement that are justified in having prophecies about. That would be a very interesting article, both from a scholarly and spiritual direction.
This article is very weak; more of a scorecard, and the score is hard to tell because both sides clamor that each point belongs to them. Not just that, but so far it is based on very limited sources (particularly on the "not a prophet" team, relying almost entirely on just two sources, the Abanes and Tanner books). Suggest directing interested readers to external sources that keep score, and turn this into a larger article on prophecies in the LDS movement, and linking it with Revelation (Latter Day Saints). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.240.14 (talk) 05:59, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the point made in the previous section by 75.169.240.14. I believe the article could be useful (I found it when I was searching for several prophecies by Joseph Smith), but in its current form it seems to be seriously unbalanced, especially towards the idea that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and that Mormons who defend him as a prophet are ignorant about all of his unfulfilled prophecies. I have added the WP:UNBALANCED tag and will add the WP:NPOV tag until these issues are addressed - which, I should add, is a monumental challenge, given how much research, both anti-Mormon and apologetic, has been done in this area, most of which is not available online. Davidwhittle (talk) 15:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I respectfully--and wholeheartedly--disagree with the proposition that this article is unbalanced, per se. To argue that placing an emphasis on the widespread scepticism of Joseph Smith's claims to have been a prophet causes--in and of itself--the article to be "unbalanced" is problematic. It is tantamount to stating, for example, that giving more weight to the scientific consensus on climate change than the "sceptic" or "denier" position--for which there is little evidence--is "unbalanced" or evidence of a NNPOV. On the contrary, treating extraordinary, unvalidated claims like Joseph Smith's with equally extraordinary scepticism is arguably the most responsible manner of presenting such information in an encyclopaedic format. I agree that the topic is hotly disputed and that there could be better sourcing from claimants from both standpoints, but in the absence of such, the burden of proof ought to rest, as it does in both scientific and historical disciplines, with the party making an extraordinary claim--the default position being the conclusion that the claim is false until demonstrated convincingly otherwise. Zephyr44 (talk) 07:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC) EDIT: In summation, I would be in favour of removing the above tags, but retaining the "disputed topic" tag. Zephyr44 (talk) 07:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I don't see why the Leonids Meteor Shower Prophecy is so much more notable that it merits a stand alone article. This material could easily fit into the table in this article. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 19:55, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
In the "Civil War" prophecy section, the notes state - "However, the prediction that this war would "be poured out upon all nations" was not fulfilled."
However! the prediction does not state "this war", but simply "war". Clearly the prediction does not say that the civil war will spread worldwide, but that from this time, war, generally, will be a regular occurrence around the world, with this particular war marking the start of this trend. Obviously this is true, as mentioned at the start of the notes. Various wars did occur, leading up to the first and second World Wars. Note, "World Wars" - and if there is any dispute as to whether they in fact were worldwide and involved "all nations", still they are regarded as World Wars.
Therefore this prediction was fulfilled, and the statement in the notes is erroneous.
Tezzerii — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tezzerii (talk • contribs) 22:03, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
First off, this is hardly a list of J.S. prophecies - so if we're going to have a list of prophecies Joseph Smith made, I think we need to really put that list out there. A previous poster, Davidwhittle, claimed that this article was biased in favor of critics. I absolutely disagree. And for these reasons.
So first thing: EVERY prophecy made by Joseph Smith has been countered and explained from an objective view. So why is it that hardly any of them explain this.
Second thing: The prophecies listed wherein the critics are recognized, all it says is, "Critics claim this prophecy was not fulfilled". However, this list will emphasize in great detail why believers see it as a fulfillment of prophecy.
So, it's like, Believers have all this reason to believe why it was fulfilled, here's all this info ... but critics claim this was not fulfilled ... that's all we're going to tell you on their behalf.
This article actually got me so frustrated, I opened an account and will actively help to balance this. Likewise, if you're going to list a prophecy, please - do your research equally on both sides, and make the case for BOTH apologists and critics.
DK The Mage (talk) 22:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Under the prophecy Orrin Porter Rockwell protected from enemies it states that Rockwell never cut his hair for the rest of his life. But in his article, it states he finally cut his hair so a wig could be made for a balding widow. Which is it? — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 12:39, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
History of the Church is not the only source to this prophecy, you can also find a much earlier description of 1831 in Doctrine and Covenants. “Zion shall flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains, and shall be assembled together unto the place which I have appointed” (D&C 49:25) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.170.13.248 (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of prophecies of Joseph Smith. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:02, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
I have added the "POV" tag to this article, because as it currently stands it is biased towards the Mormon view of these prophecies, with the "notes" section including extensive coverage of this view, with few including an independent or neutral perspective on the prophecy. I would also note that many are sourced to unreliable sources, such as FAIR (Mormon apologetics organization), and others are entirely unsourced.
In my opinion, this article needs extensive cleanup before this tag can be removed. BilledMammal (talk) 13:11, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
I agree with you, although from the other side (I notice most of the counterclaims are from one guy's book). I think this article should most likely be deleted, for the reason that it is almost impossible to find reliable sources. All of the sources in this article are primary sources for their claims, not secondary sources. Brirush (talk) 00:11, 26 January 2023 (UTC)