PCness?[edit]

Well, there has been some debate about someone being a slave & someone who is enslaved. Such as there being slight irritation that Lincoln freed the slaves but didn't free the black man. In other words, he freed them, but still considered them slaves.

That's why I chose the word "Famous People In Slavery" from the "Slaves" page. This isn't a major sticking point as the distinction is slight & from what I understand it isn't that big of a deal at this point. However, if we could start thinking in that direction, perhaps we'd find a better way to title this article? --Duemellon 15:27, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's not about political correctness. It's about clarity in the English language. The appropriate way to define this list is closer to 'List of Famous Enslaved People". This is a list of people that other people have heard of. Regarding your point about Abraham Lincoln, I'm baffled. Whether Abraham Lincoln understood that the enslaved people in the United States were now free or not is beside the point. In practice, those people were freed. That's what matters. Notwithstanding the fact that Lincoln was shot dead not long after the conclusion of the Civil War, you seem to be giving too much weight to the confusions of a single human being. If you're looking for actual intelligent thought about slavery in the United States, you should look to Lincoln's contemporaries like Frederick Douglas, who was far more logical and sensible about the matter.

However, I agree that this page should be modified to reflect more on the experiences of people who were enslaved in the United States. It seems to have a euro-centric approach. It doesn't even talk about the earlier ethnic-based slavery, that of the Jewish people in Egypt. God commanded Moses to lead his people out of slavery and even drowned all the enslavers who pursued God's people, according to the Bible. The Bible may not be relied on as a literal reference, but it's generally correct about this issue at a high-level. That story is actually found in the evidence of the historical record. Private Person (talk) 02:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You have got to be kidding me. Where did you get that there is evidence for the Exodus? Which part of "The consensus of modern scholars is that the Pentateuch does not give an accurate account of the origins of the Israelites, who appear instead to have formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture." was unclear to you? Dimadick (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Disagree with list[edit]

Yes, slavery has been a fact in many countries through history, but it seems arbitrary to list people here from so many different cultures and different centuries where the circumstances are very different. Slavery as a "category" would appear to cover that aspect. Yes, I read the limited discussion on keeping this list.Parkwells (talk)

That is a narrow-minded and not very neutral point of view. Slavery is wrong no matter what colour of skin, and no matter which country you are from. People should be aware, that people of all nationalitys have been slaves. There is nothing wrong with the truth. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 15:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If we let all countrys mind their own matters, then we will have no information here on wiki about any other countrys than the English speaking ones. Your oppinion does not give the impression of NPOV.--85.226.44.74 (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Honestly @Parkwells: has a point. Though I haven't fully reviewed the list, it seems that the list is comprised of people who were in slavery at a point when it existed as a legal institution in someway. The above IP is highly narrowminded with his comments. While certainly it is 2014 and Slavery is wrong by our Values, that is relatively modern. The IPs position also highlights a POV.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 02:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If you look at the edit history of this discussion, User: Parkwells actually edited the first text in this discussion on 16 May 2014, years after the IP-number commented it, so the comment of the IP-number now appears to answer a totally different text than he/she did originally. The original first comment of this discussion was:

Quote: Most of the people listed seem to have some kind of fame or public knowledge. Is this just a list anyone can add to for names of :people who were enslaved? For instance, thirty-three people who were held by the Major James Bulloch family in Roswell, GA have been :identified by name (first name only) and memorialized on a plaque at the grounds of Bulloch Hall. So if I wanted to make the effort, they :could also be listed here, right? From reading a lot in this area, I think it's better to use the term "enslaved person/Africa/African-:American". Then you are reminded there was a person there, and that's why many historians have adopted that term. "Slave" is more abstract. :Yes, slavery has been a fact in many countries through history, but we shouldn't forgot what it has meant to the American experience, or :anywhere else. The development of slavery in the United States and changes through the years before the Civil War were too important to gloss :over as "everyone did it". Labor derived from slavery was a fundamental part of the economy, the slave trade contributed to wealth North and :South, unresolved issues of social justice are being worked on today. Did you know that in 1840 New Orleans was the third largest city in the :country and THE wealthiest? - partly because it had the biggest slave market in the country and also because of the huge shipping up and down :the Mississippi River, and import-export.Don't worry so much about not being US-centric that we lose a huge part of US history. I think other :countries can take care of their own discussions. Preceding unsigned comment added by :Parkwells (talk contribs) 14:41, 28 September 2007 End Quote.

This text above is what IP 85.226.44.74 originally commented on, not the text Parkwell has pasted in 2014. This must be pointed out: It must be clear what the IP originally commented on. When I saw Parkwells edit, I was close to reverting it, and wondered if it was truly according to rules to make such an edit, which discredited the whole discussion and made it appear different from what it was. My opinion is that a list consisted of only people enslaved in the united states is certainly narrow-minded, breaks NPOV and damage the use of Wikipedia as an international Encyclopedia. Thank you--Aciram (talk) 13:37, 7 July 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I wasn't trying to discredit the discussion but to emphasize my main point, which had changed in 7 years. Here, I'm repeating my comment that a list of individuals from different places and different times, whose only reason to be on the list is that they have been documented as slaves, is not very useful. It takes individuals out of context and meaning to add them all to such a list. What is the point of this list? It doesn't tell you how slavery compared over time, or by time and place/society, etc. I don't think a list of persons enslaved in the US through three centuries is very useful either. As someone noted, an issue of classification can be satisfied by a category, rather than a list.Parkwells (talk) 04:13, 11 July 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You should not have removed your edit and replaced it with a new one, when your old comment had been answered by some one else. That action gives the impression that the answer to your first comment was in fact the answer to your second, and unjustly gives a completely different meaning to the whole discussion, and further more, it discredits your fellow editors - IP or not - which now appears to have answered a completely different question than was originally the case. This is not acceptable, could be regarded as deceitful, and it actually deserves an apology from your part. I suspect I could even report this edit of yours to Wikipedia. I trust you will never repeat such a thing. The correct thing would have been to start a new discussion which reflects your new opinion, or simply to make a new comment on this one. Your behavior in this discussion did not give you credit. As for the list, I can see no harm in it, and as long as it does exist it should include slaves from different nations and circumstances, which in my opinion rather makes the differences within the concept of slavery more clear. Thank you--Aciram (talk) 11:23, 11 July 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Cristiano Ronaldo[edit]

Gave me a good laugh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.51.4 (talk) 03:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fixed. (Hypnosadist) 23:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
hey 102.90.44.238 (talk) 11:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is kind of worded badly.[edit]

"To be included in this list the person must have a Wikipedia article showing that they were slaves, or must have references showing that they were slaves and are notable."

This seems like something you might post at the top of the talk page but it really seems out of place on the article page.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 02:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wrong Placement[edit]

Jermain Wesley Loguen is under "L". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEBA:2F80:BC4C:E8DD:62E8:52EF (talk) 23:24, 15 February 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Why Genghis Khan is not in the list?[edit]

Why Genghis Khan is not in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorberino (talk • contribs) 17:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:21, 15 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Requested move 16 November 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: There is consensus to move these back — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

– This is a request to revert various undiscussed moves from titles using the term "slaves" to those using "enslaved people". I recently performed those reversions, but Drmies reverted my reversions. (There is also related discussion on Drmies's talk.) From the article titles policy, titles should be recognisable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent. I believe that the term "slave" is more concise, more natural, and more common than "enslaved person". For example, on Google, there are 1,030,000,000 results for "slave", but only 39,100,000 results for "enslaved person", much of which are about the term itself. It appears that some arguments for "enslaved person" are that it emphasises that slaves are people, but I think this is pointless: a slave is defined as "someone forbidden to quit their service for another person (an enslaver) who treats that slave as their property" (bolding applied; from Slavery). I also believe that people in other conditions are generally referred to with a noun for people in that condition, if there is one. Sincerely, Tol (talk | contribs) @ 03:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Once again: List of the last surviving American slaves[edit]

@MSGJ: I don't think that you determined consensus correctly regarding List of the last surviving American slaves. Four editors (including myself) supported List of last survivors of American slavery, and nobody opposed it. I just fixed it, of course everybody is free to undo and / or discuss my action. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:32, 25 November 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For the record, even though I was strongly for revert of the previous title of this article, I'm not against that one, so I endorse your move. No such user (talk) 13:01, 25 November 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Cherokee[edit]

I recently made an edit to remove many definite articles from this page in the interest of clarity and brevity. Another editor reverted it. I propose that we change phrases like "a white girl who was enslaved by the Cherokee" to "a white girl who was enslaved by Cherokees". First, it's simpler and shorter, and we should try to keep entries concise in a list as large as this one. Secondly, it's more accurate. She was enslaved by some Cherokees, not by the Old Cherokee Nation. It's like writing that Sally Hemings was enslaved by the United States (or the Americans), rather than by Thomas Jefferson. pburka (talk) 23:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You gave two different reasons in your edit summaries, the other one being that we should not treat groups as "monoliths". Slavery was not based on the actions of individuals, but on laws and customs. Meaning, the whole group (e.g. the Cherokees) saw and treated them as a slave. This is also normal usage in English language. There is no need to use uncommon wordings just for the sake of brevity. BTW: The barbaric laws of the U.S. made Hemings a slave. So, we might say that she was enslaved by the United States. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:49, 1 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I simply mean that we shouldn't write as if "the Cherokee" is some monolithic, centralized organization rather than a complex society. While the customs of the Cherokee permitted and encouraged slavery at the time, enslaved people didn't become the property of the state; they were treated as property of individuals or families. It's simply incorrect to say someone was enslaved by "the Cherokee", and we don't write that way about European nations. We might say "the British emancipated Cato Perkins", but that was the state acting. We wouldn't write that "the British enslaved Samuel Sharpe", because it wasn't an act of the state, even though the state's laws and institutions facilitated his enslavement. I don't think it's awkward or surprising to read that someone was enslaved by Cherokees or Creek people; it would be confusing to many readers if we wrote that someone was enslaved by Great Britain or the United States. pburka (talk) 20:27, 1 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
According to the list, Annika Svahn was captured by "the Russians", and that's (or should be) a European nation. If a nation or an ethnic group acts as a group (especially in war), we normally use the definite article. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:40, 3 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree that the usage is common when talking about wars or battles (which are acts of states), and in these cases I think the context implies that "the Russians" or "the Cherokee" refers to an army or military unit. Would you agree to removing "the" in the cases where there's no indication there was a war or battle or other act of state involved? pburka (talk) 19:35, 3 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No. The term "state" is not normally used for the Cherokee nation, but still the Cherokees fought wars as a group. And to check each individual case whether somebody was abducted by two Cherokees while lost in the forest (no war) or captured during a raid (possibly understood as part of a war, possibly not) seems a total waste of time. Rsk6400 (talk) 11:11, 4 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The great thing about Wikipedia is that we're all volunteers, so I'll choose to waste my time as I see fit. I'm going to continue removing "the" where there's no context to support a state or nation as the actor. Please discuss individual cases you disagree with on this page. pburka (talk) 15:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Simply reverting changes because you dislike them is disruptive. I asked you to discuss individual cases you disagree with. Let's start with Antonia Bonnelli. Our biography of Bonnelli says she was captured by Miccosukee Indians. Please explain why you prefer the version that says she was "enslaved by the Mikasuki tribe", which has a different meaning. pburka (talk) 18:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I didn't simply revert because I dislike something. See WP:AGF. If you want to discuss each individual case, you have to give a specific edit summary for each case. Regarding Bonelli: What our article says is pretty irrelevant. WP:RS is what matters. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:12, 12 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Categories