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What counts as "downtown"? Does it have to be the central business district, or just the city limits? Ardric47 03:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm hesitating to add the F3 Aylmer, Qc tornado to that list, it may miss by the size around the 35,000-45,000 range when the tornado hit the downtown area in 1994. Although it was (before amalgamation to the city of Gatineau in 2001 - which probably gives the Aylmer sector right now somewhere near 50,000) one of the major suburbs of Ottawa - the metro population at that time was close to 1 million in 1994. Meanwhile, the one in Hull, Quebec rated as F1 will be added as in 1999 it was anchoring Ottawa, and it hit in what was according to many locals the second Hull downtown and it was well over 50,000 persons (it was about 65,000 at that - Ottawa metro over 1 million) --JForget 00:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Added Richmond and Petersburg VA tornadoes; this data was checked via NCDC storm reports and the Virginia Emergency Management archive of Virginia tornado statistics; the Petersburg tornado is also linked to the Wikipedia article for the 1993 Virginia tornado outbreak.
I did not add the super outbreak tornadoes that struck Xenia, OH and Huntsville, AL; though they passed through part of the CBD I was unable to locate a detailed maps of the precise path to verify this. I think both storms probably warrant inclusion however. Davidals 02:42, 03 October 2006 (UTC)
Based on CrazyC83's criteria, Xenia has well below 50,000 residents (it had 24 000 in 2000)--JForget 20:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if it's me, but based on the tornado track, doesn't seem that it hit downtown Evansville - more like the southeastern suburbs which is probably a good 10-15 miles away from downtown. If Evansville is on the list, you might as well add the Birmingham F5's of 1977 and 1998 which were located just a few miles northwest of downtown Birmingham and ditto for the Louisville tornado of 1974 and Tuscaloosa in 2000 and the 1975 Omaha tornado (I've added the 1913 Easter Sunday event that killed 103 and hit the downtown portion before crossing into Iowa). --JForget 20:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Since this article is mostly about the United States and Canada, should we rename it to "List of North American tornadoes striking downtown areas"? If not, should i search for European, Australian or world-wide tornadoes that hit any downtown areas? RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 18:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Oooh! That would be much appreciated if you could dig information on those cities, especially the historical ones. Although i have the Utrecht Tornado covered fairly well, I would love it if you could also find information on that one, just to confirm or update information i already have on that historical tornado. RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 00:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Several listings near large cities or even within city limits but not not striking the central business district downtown (concentration of mid- to high rises) are being added and should be removed. We'll have to watch this page and confirm that downtown areas are indeed hit. Evolauxia 22:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I see this has been discussed before, but I don't think the definition of downtown is correct in this article. I thought this page was dedicated to "tornadoes that hit relatively large cities" and not just defined as "tornadoes that hit the downtowns of large cities"? For example, the Huntsville tornado hit a section of south Huntsville but not really near the downtown area...I think that if we include something like this then we need to include something like the Oklahoma City tornado. I mean, that F5 got pretty close to the city, practically going around it. The Huntsville tornado should def. be in there, but I was just thinking that maybe we should review the terms for being listed in this article? Love each other, or perish. ~Auden 06:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, then I agree. I'll try to edit some things myself. Love each other, or perish. ~Auden 20:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is only for Large Cities perhaps the article should have that in its name.
The problems of determining what constitutes a central business district/downtown area and what size city counts as a threshold have been elaborated on above. Some kind of stricter standardization is still in order. Addition of events not meeting the "consensus" so far laid out continually require purging. Given the ambiguities involved, it occurs to me that the list may be in breach of original research. This is so even when an event is well sourced, if that source does not specifically state that a downtown area was hit. The very act of determining here on Wikipedia the characteristics of what is added possibly opens up NOR issues. Thoughts?
In the meantime, vigilance is required on verifying new events as they are added if this list is to be of encyclopedia/almanac standard. Evolauxia (talk) 10:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not familiar of the exact downtown limits of Louisville, Kentucky but is the University of Louisville located in the CBD limits. I'm asking this because an EF1 tornado touched down on the western side of the campus on January 29, 2008 and based on the location on the second touchdown near U of L, this looks very close to the CBD limits.--JForget 03:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's the exact locations of the touchdowns and you could see the first two touchdowns are very close to the CBD limits and looks to be much further north then when the 1974 tornado started which was just east of the International Airport or Standiford Field.--JForget 18:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I found a web site that list major cities that were hit by a tornado in downtown. It's a partial list but I thought I'd share this with you.[2] Rvk41 (talk) 07:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Dallas, Texas shouldn't be on the list because THE POPULATION WAS WELL BELOW 50,000 IN 1894. That is against the rules!
Also, Tornado History Project is not an accurate source to determine if a tornado strikes a downtown area. San Antonio, Texas should not be on list unless there is proof on another source.
Somebody respond please!
If some more Wiki-used SUer could add some notable cases from EU!
1968, F4, Pforzheim (>100 000 Inhabitants), the storm ripped through the city center, leaving one of the most serious examples of skyscaper-damage (blown empty)
Scroll down to 1968:
http://www.tornadoliste.de/tornadoliste1970.htm
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/cgi-bin/webbbs/wzarchive2003_2.pl?noframes%3bread=339356
The european windspeed estimations, which do (other standards of constructions) not follow the eF scale) would NOW uprate it... Very fortunately only two deaths, a wodner.
1973, F3, Kiel (>200 000 inhabitants) http://www.saevert.de/2kieltornado1973.htm One casuality (due do flying debris)
2003, F1 Vienna (>1,5 million inhabitants) Serious damage to inner town districts by a large, but fortunately not too strong tornado http://www.unwetterstatistik.at/analysen/tornados/2003/030513.html The supercell tornado was accompanied by a very serious hail-event in the north of the town (dense hailfall, 6cm diameter)
2003, F1 Graz (250 000 inhabitants). Small tornado path with some damage to the central park and surrounding roofs, a few people severely injured by falling trees. http://www.unwetterstatistik.at/analysen/tornados/2003/030829.html
Graz downtown had at least another (likely) tornado 2004, F1 (downburst not completely ruled out), 2 more cases like that 1998 (F1) (and several reported tornados (in or close to the town) in the last 100 years.) http://www.tordach.org/at
Herfried (www.skywarn.at) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.7.39 (talk) 15:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
In 1968, an f2 tornado hit north of the isthmus. Many other weaker ones have touched down in the city. These are little known events, though they did occur.
http://www.tornadoproject.com/alltorns/witorn.htm http://climate.engin.umich.edu/TornadoPATHS/?zip=53711 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trilobite12 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
-That evidence doesn't really show proof of that tornado touching down in a downtown area.
I see little to no sources for many of the tornadoes, especially the european ones. Also, the ratings of a lot of the european tornadoes look exaggerated, as well as ratings for anywhere before 1950. While I may be wrong, I have not been able to verify the vast majority of violent european tornadoes, particuarly those listed as F5. Could somebody look into this? The lists may need to be cut down a lot if sources cannot be found. Inferno, Lord of Penguins 20:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
It sounds like the EF2 tornado affected the downtown area. In the survey, NWS Shreveport says that the tornado produced damage along Blanchard Road heading into downtown Shreveport and then crossed the Red River south of the Diamond Jacks Casino. Looking at Google Maps, the casino seems to be facing directly downtown Shreveport from across the river. Euh and by the way regarding the EF4 tornado on April 10, it didn't went through downtown Murfreesboro but the northern subdivisions. JForget 23:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Not even close. Who writes this stuff as if it's some sort of resemblance of truth? The September 1962 F1 twister hit a bit closer to Seattle's downtown, but even that one was still out in the neighborhoods (Sand Point, several miles NE of downtown proper) even if it was within the boundaries of the city itself. But the 1969 tornado was south and outside of the city; at best one could categorize it as being in the greater Seattle metropolitan area.
I barely remember the '69 event (I think the twister largely touched down in Kent, WA, a suburb of Seattle, or more generally in the larger region commonly referred to as the Kent Valley if not within Kent's actual city limits--so sue me, I was a snot-nose grade school kid at the time), and was still in diapers to be able to personally recall the '62 tornado. The earlier event was relayed to me by my parents (Dad, I'm pretty sure) years after the actual incident. Since my own memories aren't as sharp as they once were, I went and verified the dates from the City of Seattle's own Office of Emergency Management historic disasters web page.
http://www.seattle.gov/emergency/hazards/history.htm
Monoblocks (talk) 06:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
People have been posting on this page about the insane number of inappropriate entries, and I've decided to finally do something about it. Soon, anyway. I'll be cutting out every tornado on this list that does not have conclusive proof that the tornado went through the downtown area. -RunningOnBrains(talk) 10:42, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I've been away for a while but am about to embark on a task of cleaning up this article. (1) Firstly, I'm going to change the name to "List of tornadoes striking downtown areas of large cities". (2) Secondly, I'm going to purge listings for which I have doubts because they are not sourced or because they're improperly sourced. There is a rampant Wikipedia:Original research issue of WP:Synth in the listing. To guard against removing legitimate events for events that are unclear on whether sourcing confirms the listing, I will move those to this talk page. (3) Thirdly, criteria should be refined, a consensus developed, and then criteria enforced. The formal criteria should be clearly listed in the talk page or at Wikipedia:WikiProject Severe weather. Since significant discussion and agreement exists on the problems and criteria, Wikipedia:Protection policy should be considered to aid enforcement.
Definitions: Downtown has been the central business district. This was an easy proxy for an urban core of a large city with, since industrialization, high population density and/or mid-high rise buildings. This listing is included for heightened human impact and because it's interesting that cities indeed experience tornadoes (as scientific research and SPC agree). As downtown/CBD is an approximation, the political or colloquial boundaries may not necessarily be strict as long as agreed upon criteria (population density, mid-level high rise area, etc.) are met. Individual suburbs would be included if criteria are met, even if not the largest city in a metropolitan area. This severely complicates WP:Synth and adds work to checking on sources, so we may need to stick with "formal" boundaries. If certain criteria are allowed rather than a downtown/CBD, then specific values are necessary. 50,000 seems fine to me for the minimum population of a respective city.
Every listing requires sourcing. The source must explicitly state or otherwise directly indicate that the tornado occurred within the bounds of a downtown area of large city (at a time when the area was indeed downtown and city indeed large).
In short, for this listing to be viable utility for its purpose, I advocate a conservative inclusion policy vs. a liberal one. Evolauxia (talk) 11:21, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I hope to be able to answer several of the issues below:
Verifiability: Was it reported on a local website, city/town website, or a local newspaper/radio/television station webpage? If it's historical, are there accurate accounts and photos of the tornado? An example of this requirement being satisfied would be the 1946 Windsor-Tecumseh Tornado.
World View: This page, while tilting in favour of North America due to its susceptibility to tornado-producing storms, should retain a nation- or continent-neutral stance. While North America will most-likely always dominate this list with the most events, Tornadoes have been proven to occur on every continent, and this list should reflect that. We also need to remember that there is far less landmass in the Southern Hemisphere, which is partly why fewer tornadoes form there.
The Downtown-or-simply-other-urban-areas argument: If the sources listed in "Verifiability" above EXPLICITLY mention it went over downtown, then I think it should be referenced. Cities often have vague definitions of their central business district or downtown, and people often have different opinions on which neighbourhood or part of the city would constitute part of the "downtown core". Sure, a few cities do have explicit boundaries of their downtowns (for things like business licensing and other purposes), and may even have neighbourhoods have "Downtown" or "Centre-Ville" in their name, It will not be easy to satisfy. So, in this case, I would propose that if a tornado's damage path passes within 3 km (2 miles) of City Hall, it would count as a downtown strike. Usually, this would include tall office towers, apartment buildings, stadiums, and other high-density structures.
What sources should be used:
As stated before in Verifiability, Newspapers, local websites, radio and television stations should all be considered, but used as secondary sources. Primary sources would be the United States' National Weather Service, Storm Prediction Center, National Climatic Data Center reports from the University of Chicago (and other educational institutions), along with the reports from Ted Fujita and Thomas P. Grazulis (and his website, http://www.tornadoproject.com/), Canada's Environment Canada, the United Kingdom's Met Office, and Europe's TORRO and ESSL, as previously mentioned.
As for re-adding tornadoes that have occurred this year:
The Huntsville and Tuscaloosa-Birmingham tornadoes should be re-added, as those were shown to have struck the downtown core. Television stations such as WBMA-LP (the American Broadcasting Company network affiliate for Birmingham) has its studios and weather camera downtown, and they were close enough to pick it up on camera. That is undeniable proof of a rare tornado striking one downtown area (Tuscaloosa, as shown in pictures on its article page), travelling 56 miles, and then striking a second downtown area (look up WBMA-LP's website, or the tornado on Youtube... it was filmed by all local stations and thousands of people that had cameras and cellphones).
This should clarify things and answer any lingering questions. RingtailedFox • Talk • Contribs 08:23, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I know many European cities don't have apartment buildings or office towers, yet have well over 50,000 people, and some are compact in size (thanks to their use of mid-rise buildings up to 6 floors throughout most of the city).
Type of town | Inclusion? | Example location(s) |
---|---|---|
Average size, unambiguously-identifiable (or an official boundary/neighbourhood) "downtown core" or central business district | Yes | Detroit, Michigan; Fort Worth, Texas |
Average size city without an official boundary for downtown | Yes | Cleveland, Ohio |
Compact city with unambiguously-identifiable (or an official boundary/neighbourhood) "downtown core" or central business district | Yes | Windsor, Ontario |
Compact city without an official boundary for downtown | Yes | Regina, Saskatchewan |
Major suburb below 50,000 neighbouring a major city over 50,000? | No | Oak Park, Michigan |
Cluster of high-rise buildings away from downtown or "secondary" downtown | Debatable | Canary Wharf, London, England; La Salle, Ontario |
Central Business District/Downtown Core more than 3 km (2 miles) from city hall | Debatable | New York City |
Location granted "City" status with less than 50,000 people | No | Jerome, Arkansas; Yorkton, Saskatchewan |
Location not granted "city" status, despite having more than 50,000 people | Yes | Markham, Ontario; Abbotsford, British Columbia |
Suburb of 50,000 or more, next to a major city, if it was also hit | Yes | Kenner, Louisiana/New Orleans, Louisiana; Mississauga, Ontario/Toronto, Ontario |
Suburb of less than 50,000, next to a major city, if it was also hit | No | Ferndale, Michigan/Detroit, Michigan, Tecumseh, Ontario/Windsor, Ontario |
My my, all of this work into this list... it's like we're re-inventing the Enhanced Fujita Scale, with all of its Damage indicators and degrees of damage... :) RingtailedFox • Talk • Contribs 19:10, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Just how are we officially classifying a downtown here? I would not say Moore, OK has a downtown. I used to live in Ames, Iowa which has a "downtown" area and its population is over 50,000. However, most people live in the southern part of the city with pretty much no one living in "downtown" and the businesses there are maybe 1 or 2 stories tall. The tallest buildings are in this southern residential area I mentioned. If a tornado struck there, it wouldn't be hitting "downtown" would it? Why would Moore be included? It barely has 50,000 people and has no downtown that I know of. Even if it did, no reports of a downtown being hit are in the news. I'm removing it until someone can provide reasoning or a news source that supports the "downtown" of Moore being hit. lukini (talk | contribs) 17:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
May I suggest the inclusion of a new column for placing the references? The current presentation is pretty ugly.--Jetstreamer (talk) 11:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Should the Tornadoes that hit Harrisburg, IL and West Liberty and Saylersville, KY tornadoes be removed? All three appear to have populations well below 50,000. Should we add one of those editing notes to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TornadoLGS (talk • contribs) 17:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to attempt to edit the list again. I was active on the weather pages in the past, but have spent the last 18 months dealing with some very serious medical issues, and I haven't always been able to spend any time here. This list is a mess, however. Many storms that went nowhere near the CBD of several cities. Davidals (talk) 03:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
As shown above by copious discussions over several years, this article has continuing problems of (1) claimed events not verified by the citations (2) events being listed that struck a populated area but not the downtown/central business district of a large city --as was the original purpose of the list.
In all cases, a reliable source that explicitly states a downtown/CBD area afflicted are necessary. Original research, unreliable sources, misinterpretations and fuzzy interpretations are not acceptable.
Few would see Moore (or various other examples) and think "this is the downtown of a major city" akin to such examples as Miami, Nashville, Salt Lake City, Ft. Worth, or St. Louis. The list becomes a diluted unuseful mess that equates apples with oranges. There are reasons that authoritative original source lists such as SPC include far fewer events. That list is actively updated. Review its qualifying statements. Evolauxia (talk) 23:01, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
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How is South Los Angeles considered downtown? BacktoDurkheim (talk) 00:38, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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There should be a minimum population requirement for what constitutes a large city. For example, Revere (EF2, 7/28/14) is *not* a large city. Moore (EF5, etc, take your pick) is also not a large city.
Maybe this should be cities of 100,000 people or more? Maybe take out the language that suggests large or larger?
I defer to the original creator of this page. Dym75 (talk) 10:35, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
What makes a big city? 50,000 people does not make a big city. If that is true, there will be so many big cities in the US. An what is a downtown? Can it just be a tornado striking a big city? Why does downtown make any difference? Destroyeraa (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Should we include the bowling green tornadoes from the [[Tornado outbreak of December 10-11, 2021], either here or as a notable exception? 69.118.232.58 (talk) 21:02, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello, I did some reaserch into what's considered Kraków's downtown/centre and it's the districts of Stare Miasto, Grzegórzki and Prądnik Czerwony.
The tornado didn't struck the previously mentioned areas but the district of Bieżanów-Prokocim, which is not considered to be a part of the downtown.
Sorces: https://eswd.eu | Districts of Kraków | https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śródmieście_(Kraków) Zupaz (talk) 02:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Edit: I removed this tornado from the table.
united states man, you are wrong. what resources are you using to prove that you need to remove this edit. Puddlehamahs (talk) 12:38, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Should this tornado from May 3rd, 1999 outbreak be included to this article? Alvaro Ivan Daniswara 2017 (talk) 03:36, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
1980 Kalamazoo tornado missing from this list - has a Wikipedia page and everything! Also confirmed that population was 50k+ at the time. Ideasoflight (talk) 19:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
An EF1 tornado impacted downtown Lake Charles, Louisiana. This needs to be added the North America list on this page. 2600:1014:B133:7C0:0:21:8331:F501 (talk) 18:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
A table in this talk page makes mentions that large suburbs can be included if the city anchoring them is also hit, however is unclear whether or not if a tornado strikes a large suburb alone should count. For instance, in 2021, Naperville was struck by a low end EF3, and in 2023, an EF1 struck Irving, Texas. Neither of these tornadoes struck the actual downtown, however, if they did, it's unclear whether or not they can be considered large cities by their own merits. For instance, other large suburbs, such as Aurora, Illinois and Olathe, Kansas, are far disconnected from their anchor cities, and have large populations, as well as downtown areas with modest development. I'm under the opinion that if a suburb of over 50,000 is struck in their downtown area, that should be counted whether or not it hit the anchoring city, but I'd like to get more consensus on this. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
On the entry for "London Bridge" there is a mention that London Bridge was damaged in the 1091 Tornado. I can't find any source for this outside of pop-history blogs that again, do not cite their sources. Is there any source for this, historical or archeological or is it just clickbait or conjecture based on the proximity to St Mary Le Bow Church (which was confirmed to have been hit and damaged by Chroniclers at the time). Abbiistabbii (talk) 10:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Was this known to hit downtown? It's shown as clear as day hitting downtown on the tornado archive viewer but I can't find a source clearly saying it. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 13:21, 22 July 2024 (UTC)