Elections and Referendums Unassessed

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Yugoslavia Unassessed

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It’s obvious from nearly every other page describing a parliamentary election in Yugoslavia that “Yugoslav” in the preferred demonym over “Yugoslavian”, so why hasn’t this page, along with 1992–93 Yugoslavian parliamentary election, 1996 Yugoslavian parliamentary election and 2000 Yugoslavian general election, switched to using the term “Yugoslav”? (The Professor (Time Lord) (talk) 06:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC))[reply]

I moved it but it was reverted. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 23:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved. A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use ((subst:requested move)). Do not use ((requested move/dated)) directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

• May 1992 Yugoslavian parliamentary election → May 1992 Serbia and Montenegro parliamentary election
• December 1992 Yugoslavian parliamentary election → December 1992 Serbia and Montenegro parliamentary election
• 1996 Yugoslavian parliamentary election → 1996 Serbia and Montenegro parliamentary election
• 2000 Yugoslavian general election → 2000 Serbia and Montenegro general election

– Over a decade ago, I made an argument to fix the names of these articles, but it was muddled by a variety of less relevant issues. The fundamental issue here is that the series of articles about the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY), best known as simply Serbia and Montenegro, are not the same as the series of articles about Yugoslavia, because that would imply a simple succession, which is not the case, and contrary to the naming convention at the main space articles Yugoslavia, Breakup of Yugoslavia, etc.

Saying that there was a "Yugoslavian election" in 1992 is insufficiently precise and ambiguous, and especially confusing with the process of the breakup of Yugoslavia. The term Yugoslav continued to primarily refer to the entirety of former Yugoslavia after it broke up, rather than just the rump state formed by Serbia and Montenegro, despite the purposefully distorted naming scheme promoted by their government at the time. During all of this time, and indeed during most of the existence of the FRY, it was not recognized as such, because others were uninterested in the FRY propaganda, cf. Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on Yugoslavia, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 47/1 etc, until after the 2000 election and the overthrow of Slobodan Milošević, and later the Agreement on Succession Issues of the Former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Using the self-proclaimed name contrary to this real-world consensus is just weird. The encyclopedia should describe the state of the facts, not some vaguely fictionalized version of it. The average English reader probably does not know the exact dating of these events in relation to which state was making which weird naming claims, and we should not expect them to do so (by depending on just the years to distinguish this).

To my knowledge, the only other place where we use the term Yugoslavia in an ambiguous manner like this is with the article "NATO bombing of Yugoslavia" - there were in fact several NATO bombing campaigns in different parts of former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, but this one that targetted the FRY in 1999 was the most notable one, and it somehow stuck. That should not be used as a precedent to refer to the FRY as just Yugoslavia in election articles.

The new names would also fit the content of those articles much better, as the elections tables are consistently split between Serbia and Montenegro in each of them already. --Joy (talk) 12:25, 3 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 13:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose The country wasn't called Serbia and Montenegro at the time of these elections. Number 57 15:19, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, it was, in the eyes of everyone else it was Serbia and Montenegro. Likewise in their own opinion just three years later. What does this matter to the average English reader today? Conversely, what would you support moving to? The formal self-claimed name of the country, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? --Joy (talk) 16:00, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose moves. The country was still the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the time. O.N.R. ^(talk) 15:48, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Same questions as above? --Joy (talk) 16:01, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Same position as Number 57. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @ValenciaThunderbolt WP:NOTAVOTE. What was the country called at the time of these elections then? --Joy (talk) 17:17, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 17:32, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was referred to as Serbia and Montenegro by the US for atleast 1999 (that's according to the name section on the country's page). ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

      There you go. A Google search can relatively easily verify how there wasn't any consistency whatsoever in referring to FRY elections as just plain old Yugoslavia elections. For example,

      • The U.S. Helsinki Commission at [1] reported on Montenegro elections in '98 without even naming FRY once
      • OSCE at [2] is documenting FRY in '97 under Serbia, and the document itself from '97 is titled Republic of Serbia while mentioning FRY a few times inside
      • Council of Europe at [3] in '96 mentions FRY but puts S&M in parenthesis for every one of the 4 mentions, and talks of former Yugoslavia as such; [4] documents FRY in '00 as such, never as just "Yugoslavia"; at [5] in '01 they use the adjective "Yugoslav" twice, and FRY seven times; at [6] in '01 they use FRY twice, "Yugoslav" twice, but also "Serbia and Montenegro" in a section heading; in '03 they switch to "Serbia and Montenegro" and mention former FRY once
      • Human Rights Watch at [7] in '97 referred to Yugoslavia and Yugoslav quite a lot, yet also prefaced the mentions of the federation with saying both FRY and Serbia and Montenegro
      • European Union at [8], [9], [10] in '96 referred to FRY consistently as such, and distinguished it from former Yugoslavia explicitly

      There's certainly some ebb and flow to this, but if anything is apparent it's that the titles we habitually use right now just aren't the most appropriate. --Joy (talk) 19:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

      The argument here can be compared to the ones made at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 29#Category:1992–93 in Yugoslav football, where we also have a lax usage of "Yugoslavia"/"Yugoslav". --Joy (talk) 13:33, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Well, relisting. I'm seeing opposes here. Reading Beans (talk) 13:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I agree with making it clear that this wasn't SFR Yugoslavia but that it was FR Yugoslavia. However, I disagree that it should be called Serbia and Montenegro. The sources provided above suggest that the country was still known as Yugoslavia and that it wasn't and still isn't referred to as Serbia and Montengro before 2003. I would suggest renaming to XXXX Federal Republic of Yugoslavia parliamentary election (general election for 2000) as an alternative. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 15:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, I'm not sure if I made it unclear, but the sources suggest that the country was *not* generally known as Yugoslavia, because OSCE, CoE and HRW clearly weren't taking the term FRY at face value; CSCE did *not* use FRY at all; and even if EU used the term FRY it was done while distinguishing it from former Yugoslavia. That is hardly consensus for FRY being an actual WP:COMMONNAME - when even these institutional sources are so inconsistent and often clumsy about it, we can't just assume that a term is just fine. Our article on the topic has long linked to the CIA World Factbook article from 2000 at [11] which uses S&M and introduces the term FRY in scary quotes and explains how the US explicitly argued against it. When all these election articles actually describe elections in Serbia and in Montenegro, how does it help the average reader today to use a weird title in the title instead? --Joy (talk) 17:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose The country was known as the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia until 2003. This usage is seen contemporaneously by organizations such as Human Rights Watch, the United Nations, and the PACE. Curbon7 (talk) 10:12, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Supporting the proposed alternative of moving to xxxx FRY election, as an obvious clarification device. Curbon7 (talk) 10:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Curbon7 there's no doubt that you can find references to it like that, but that's not the whole picture. The article you link from HRW is from 1999, and it continues to use the term Yugoslavia and Yugoslav casually just like their doc from 1997 that I listed above, while at the same time mentioning 'Former Yugoslavia' in the name of the ICTY twice and explaining the separate Montenegrin government as well. The UN link you pasted doesn't work, can you go back to wherever you found it and try to generate a working permalink? The CoE document is from 2001, at which point FRY had its sanctions lifted and been generally recognized. And, again, just 2 years after that, they themselves renamed the country again. --Joy (talk) 10:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The Republic of Serbia and the Republic of Montenegro (as sub-entities under the FRY banner) did exist and did hold subnational elections (such as the 2000 Serbian parliamentary election) which is what that section is referring to. The United Nations PDF can be found here in The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was admitted as a Member of the United Nations by General Assembly resolution A/RES/55/12 of 1 November 2000. Curbon7 (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, and that link ironically is titled "Yugoslavia and Successor States", and FRY is indeed listed just like FYROM is listed. It's transient names that haven't got a critical amount of meaning to the average English reader today to be worth dealing with in article titles. --Joy (talk) 10:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Also worth adding that, per the Agreement on Succession Issues of the Former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the FRY is not considered the sole legal successor to the SFR Yugoslavia; rather each former constituent state are considered to be equal legal successors. As such, I think moving to xxxx FRY election is more unequivocated, such that it completely bypasses the Serbian irredentist claim that this was the sole legal successor state. Curbon7 (talk) 21:04, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Such articles should not refer to Yugoslavia unqualified since the FRY and earlier Yugoslavias are not the same country (i.e. not mere name changes as in cases of change of Kingdom of SHS to Kingdom of Yugoslavia or People's Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. If used unqualified, the term will certainly be misleading to casual readers - without exception - leading them to conclusion that the FRY is a continuation of the SFRY. Alternatively, The relevant articles should become 2000 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia general election etc. to draw at least some distinction, although the readers would be best served with the originally proposed titles.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:15, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I did not examine published reliable English-language sources to determine the common name. I understand from the above discussion that the sources do not refer to the country as (unqualified) Yugoslavia in the relevant context and my argument is that the Wiki should not refer to it in unqualified terms either not just because of the potential for conflation of two different states.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which brings up the obvious issue of why shouldn't we actually examine not just contemporary but modern-day secondary sources that talk about elections in former Yugoslavia to try to glean an actual consensus of reliable sources about it... --Joy (talk) 11:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I disagree with the nominator's current crusade to rename every article and category retroactively from Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to Serbia and Montenegro before the 2003 Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro. What's next? Are we going to rename 1992 Yugoslav Constitution from the name that appears in this very constitution? Foreign usage to call the country between 1992 an 2003 was, at best, inconsistent, but the examples given above demonstrate that expressions like the remainder of Yugoslavia, rump Yugoslavia or small Yugoslavia were frequently if not majorly used, concurrent with former Yugoslavia for the larger territory. And, of course, the country called itself FR Yugoslavia. Place Clichy (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'll just say for the record that we've had a bad interaction before at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 8#Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Right now these election articles are named in a way that does not distinguish it from former Yugoslavia, so I find it hard to understand such opposition to the move. And, yes, the article title "1992 Yugoslav Constitution" is also very confusing with former Yugoslavia, and supporting it as if it was axiomatic is effectively supporting the state-sponsored propaganda from the darkest days of that state, which I find utterly nonsensical. --Joy (talk) 15:15, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Bad interaction? Not really from the way I feel, otherwise we'd lose all hopes in constructive debate. These election articles are named in a way that does distinguish them from former Yugoslavia, because "former Yugoslavia" did not hold elections in 1992, 1996 or 2000. I agree that the 1992 constitution article could be renamed to a title using "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" for clarity, but certainly not the retroactive "Serbia and Montenegro". The fact that these were indeed dark days in the history of this country is irrelevant on the way it is called. You won't call the Ottoman Empire of ca. 1915 the "Young Turks Empire" or another made up name not supported by historiography just because you don't like the name it had or what it did, or because it had lost provinces. The entire logic is flawed. Place Clichy (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I addressed the matter of distinguishing by year in the nomination already - it's a bad idea to have to keep the readers on their toes.

  It doesn't make sense to compare this with Ottoman Empire at the end of its existence because there wasn't a non-historiographical name for it like that, was there?

  Whereas the logic of calling the new state containing Serbia and Montenegro, which ended up naming itself Serbia and Montenegro later - exactly that - is pretty obvious. --Joy (talk) 08:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The logic to use Serbia and Montenegro for the country which ended up naming itself as such is not as obvious as you say. It is, indeed, like calling the Ottoman Empire "Turkey" in its final years, or calling the Republic of Macedonia "North Macedonia". There are cases in which historiography as retained another name that the name a country called itself, the Byzantine Empire being a famous example. However, you still have to demonstrate that it is the case here. All you have said is that you disagree with the FR Yugoslavia presenting itself as the legitimate successor of pre-1991 Yugoslavia. I would lean to agree with you on that point, but it does not change its name. You want to retroactively change its name to make your point stronger in that other debate, which is discouraged per WP:POINT. Place Clichy (talk) 17:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  There is no retroactive change; as mentioned several times before, we know for a fact that the United States did not recognize FRY under that name at all and instead called it Serbia and Montenegro for most of its existence. I have demonstrated with links to contemporary primary sources, separate from the US government, how none of the sources were able to just keep using the term "Yugoslavia" for this state without actually saying "oh it's actually Serbia and Montenegro, not what everyone recognized as Yugoslavia up to now". --Joy (talk) 08:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Lean oppose. I can see the value in being clearer to readers, but I'm not seeing "Serbia and Montenegro" as achieving that. It seems far more likely the reader will read "Serbia and Montenegro" as the current two separate states, and this would be certainly more likely than them intuiting some particular viewpoint regarding the theory of the succession of states from "Yugoslav". Using a contemporaneous name seems a consistent and defensible decision, and we appear to reflect name change in the neighbouring (North) Macedonia, with the 2014 Macedonian general election being followed by the 2019 North Macedonian presidential election. CMD (talk) 02:51, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not quite following the logic, if you put two terms like that in the title, why would they read separation from that? It would require linking Serbia and Montenegro in the lead section, which in turn leads to an explanation because the compound term does exist anyway, because, again, this state was renamed to that eventually. They gave up on both the particular viewpoint on succession of states and then they gave up on forcing the ambiguous terminology. Why can't we give up on it decades later?

  The Macedonian matter is a whole other can of worms, and it's not quite analogous because the Socialist Republic of Macedonia changed directly into the Republic of Macedonia with out a violent breakup for which they had a peace conference with an arbitration commission etc. I for one would be fine with renaming those election articles to say 'Republic of' or 'North' because it would avoid ambiguity and help the modern-day reader to easily connect the dots. --Joy (talk) 08:40, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I am not reading any of the other comments above arguing for the name due to it implying a particular succession of statehood, so I don't think this is an issue they have not given up on. The argument seems to be defaulting to the used name. Place Clichy provides an example that comes to my mind as well on this topic; we use Byzantine to override the locally preferred name following quite substantial preference in the historiography. That does not seem to have happened here in either direction, for what was at any rate a historically very short-lived entity. CMD (talk) 03:41, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Exactly, references in historical works to this entity will tell us at best likewise "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, actually Serbia and Montenegro, not what everyone recognized as Yugoslavia up to now". We don't override anything by making a change, in fact using just "Yugoslavia" and "Yugoslav" to refer to this state is overriding the local and global consensus. Right now concision is overriding all the other article title criteria in the names of these articles, which is against the spirit and letter of that policy. --Joy (talk) 08:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I have seen little evidence that the name "Serbia and Montenegro" was consistently in use back at that time, and contemporary newspapers such as [12], [13], [14] seem to simply call it Yugoslavia. I see very little case for making these moves, all the more so given that the entity of Serbia and Montenegro doesn't actually exist any more as of 2023. I'm also not sure why Joy is bludgeoning the discussion above and badgering every oppose !voter, this seems rather unusual for a normally very astute and experienced Wikipedian. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  There is no doubt that there were references to it as Yugoslavia, but newspapers are notoriously casual about some of these things and are not known to be better than other reliable sources. The reason that I get so visibly annoyed by these discussions is because I just don't seem to observe a lot of rigor in these !votes. I'm sorry, I know there are much better ways to argue these points. For example, we can try to have a look at Google Books Ngrams for Yugoslavia,Yugoslav,former Yugoslavia,former Yugoslav,Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,Serbia and Montenegro. I hope it's that much more apparent from that graph that it's just not right to keep casually using the term Yugoslavia for a place that just doesn't correspond to the generally known meaning of that term. --Joy (talk) 09:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]