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Leica rangefinder cameras are mirrorless in the sense that they don't have a mirror in front of the sensor (or film). They do have an optical viewfinder. Since MILC was defined to make a distinction between reflex (e.g. SLRs or TLRs) and non-reflex system cameras, a Leica M or the Epson RD-1 camera is a MILC. One should think of MILC as a super category with EVF and Rangefinder categories. EVF can then be broken down into what you'd call "compact" and "(D)SLR-like" subcategories. Where would Fujifilm's X100 fit? Well, maybe you'll need a third "Hybrid" category. Guy Paris (talk) 06:04, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
The Leica M8 and M9 were listed as mirrorless; it's my understanding that the optical overlay of a traditional rangefinder is indeed a pentaprism [1] and thus not a mirrorless camera. As far as the EVIL acronym goes, it's also an optical viewfinder, thus it's not an EVIL in any case. That said, I don't know enough about the internals of the M8 and M9 to know if they are now using some other technology for the rangefinding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deirdresm (talk • contribs) 00:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Update: asked over on the l-camera-forum [2]. It sounds like the M8 and M9 use essentially the same mechanism as predessors from at least the M3 on. So it seems either a) rangefinders should be excluded from this page (which frankly makes more sense); or b) all rangefinders should be included, which would cloud the discussion of the modern trend toward mirrorless cameras. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deirdresm (talk • contribs) 03:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The Epson R-D1 was released in 2004. It should be included if the Leica M8 belongs here, since both are digital rangefinder cameras. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pgmj (talk • contribs) 17:11, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
One of the things that classes a Mirrorless camera in the sense that most photographers mean is not just the lack of a physical mirror, but also the mode of operation. That is, the camera takes a live image from the camera's imaging sensor and displays it on an EVF or on a screen, or at least has the ability to do so. Though this may not be explicitly stated in the article, this is the way most people in the photography field would define a "mirrorless". The Leica M8, M9, and Epson RD-1 do not use this method of image composition and focusing. They are mechanical M-mount rangefinders, just like the Leica film M's going back to the M3, and the current Bessa and Zeiss cameras. Digital rangefinders are rangefinders, not mirrorless cameras in this regard. Put more simply, if you take a layperson and hand them an Olympus or Sony MILC, then a Leica M8 or M9, the Leica will be operated in a completely different way, as you compose with framelines, not on the LCD or an EVF, and your image through the viewfinder is not representative of the actual final image as it is on a MILC. However, the newest leica M-series rangefinder, refered to simply as the "M" with the internal designation "240", Not only has a mechanical/optical rangefinder mechanism like the older Leicas, but also has the ability to display a live view from the image sensor to the LCD screen or a separate detatchable eye-level electronic viewfinder. I would say that even though it has a rangefinder, its ability to display a live view from the sensor means that it is, in fact, a mirrorless camera in every sense of the word. If this is truly about the presence of a mirror, rather than the method of operation, A 4x5 view camera would also be "mirrorless", and it is clearly not. I think attention has to be paid here to the method of focus confirmation and composition of the image by the user, not merely the presence or nonpresence of a mirror in front of the sensor. Unixrevolution (talk) 14:37, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Rangefinders should be removed. MILC, though a terrible term which should be abolished in favor of SLM or nearly anything else ("Honey, be sure to grab the MILC before we leave for the airport!" has never been and will never be uttered), is a generic term to describe a new camera category that didn't exist prior to the G1. Rangefinders already had their generic term, "rangefinder." No one who bought a rangefinder prior to the release of the G1 thought "I'm buying a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera!" Rather, they thought they were buying a rangefinder, intent on the rangefinder experience, regardless of whether DRangefinder or FRangefinder. Including the RD-1 and M8/9/10, etc., is retconning. Mlebold (talk) 01:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
References
I've cleaned up this article a bit from its original submission, but if there are any experts on video camera technology out there that find this, it could definitely use some attention from someone more knowledgeable regarding the topic. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 19:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I think talking of entry-level DSLR sensors is confusing. As far as I know, APS-C sensors are for example used in all Canon DSLRs up to the 7D, which clearly is not an entry-level DSLR (nor is the 40d or 50d). 82.212.0.72 (talk) 20:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
The term "MILC" (as opposed to EVIL) is becoming more popular in the forums these days. As it is also the title of this topic, should it not get a mention ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Preroll (talk • contribs) 22:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
The page seems to be called MILC now. I noticed that the term "MILC camera" crops up in places - that's redundant, isn't it? Should it be corrected, or would it be more confusing to just use 'MILC' in those places? Denny de la Haye (talk) 18:05, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
How are Sony SLT cameras considered mirror-less cameras when they obviously have mirrors? They are subtype of DSLR cameras. Also, there's already an article for SLT cameras (Single-lens translucent camera). I suggested Sony SLT range should be removed from list of EVIL cameras. Satellite779 (talk) 12:03, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I guess 'PILC' for 'prismless' would be more accurate ? But that would just be adding to the mayhem eh? (Preroll (talk) 22:37, 23 September 2010 (UTC))
I agree with Satellite779 that Sony SLT cameras definetely are DSLR. Their mirror just does not move, that is the only difference from all other DSLRs. Therefore it can not be considered as mirrorless. About 'prismless', most of the DSLR do not have prism, instead it have pentamirror. RedAndr (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
The title of the page is "MIRRORLESS interchangeable lens camera", so Sony SLTs should be removed, simply. A mention that SLTs fit EVIL terminology should be made, or a separate page on EVILs linking to MILCs and SLTs, saying EVIL = MILC + SLT should be added. Remember: DPreview has a poll on MILCs (http://www.dpreview.com/polls/), suggesting that MILCs should reasonably become the industry-standard term for all those cameras. It depends on us and the MILC page on Wikipedia whether such terms will spread and become standard, so I suggest to just remove all SLT occurrences on the page and take position, finally decide on which term to use, citing the others as synonyms simply, and ending the confusion! Darrask (talk) 12:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
On terminology – since the terminology is not yet stable, I propose keeping alternative terms in the “Terminology” section (not cluttering the lede). Once a stable term emerges, but not before, we can use that throughout (e.g., MILC, ILC), and move the page to the proper name (if different).
I removed DEVIL acronym from the lead - source given [1] is not notable enough and I could not find any other usages of the acronym. Also, the word "Digital" is redundant when used with "Electronic Viewfinder". --M5 (talk) 08:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Does a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera have a mechanical shutter (like today's normal DSLRs) or an electronic shutter (like today's compact cameras)? If it has an electronic shutter than one of its' benefits is an (almost) unlimited flash sync speed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itamarhason (talk • contribs) 11:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Compared to DSLR cameras, mirrorless cameras are mechanically simpler and are often smaller, lighter, and quieter (since their electronic shutter is used)
The purpose of micros is to provide high quality imaging in a smaller body than in DSLR cameras. [citation needed]
While I can see why some might see this as some kind of unwanted original theory construction, it's an assertion that's backed by the whole article, it's common knowledge and it's actually such an obvious fact that I'm not sure if the [citation needed] tag is any more necessary there than for other claims in this article that are comparably "new" and "uncited" (like that the term MILC is "the most accurate one" or that these cameras "have generated significant excitement" or that they're "undermining the advantage that existing camera makers have in precision mechanical engineering" and many others). --91.89.230.62 (talk) 19:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Article clearly says in first lines: "an emerging class of digital system cameras, intermediate between compact digital cameras and digital single-lens reflex cameras (DSLRs)" - SLTs are equal to DSLRs, these two are above entry-level and below advanced DSLR models. Also you write that these cameras have drawbacks like "Contrast detection autofocus, rather than phase detection autofocus system" and "Incompatibility with existing lenses" - while that's CLEARLY not the case with A55 and A33.
These two should be put in exact same place as eg. Leica M8 - mention them in "Classification" section - M8 also doesn't fit the MILC type, but from different reasons (IMO it's actually closer to MILC definition than A55 and A33 is). 83.26.135.65 (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
This article attempts to define a very fuzzy category, and is therefore confusing.
The subjects covered in here are mostly covered in other articles such as EVF, System Camera, Autofocus and Image sensor format. Based on the writing so far, it's hard to believe some of the editors are even aware of these other articles.
I would propose that the sections on Advantages/Disadvantages be substantially removed. Useful redundancy exists, but this is not it.
Michael Barkowski (talk) 15:14, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
I have not been able to figure out why the systems are sorted in this particular order. Is it market share, that puts Sony and Four Thirds on top? Wouldn't the "Relese date" not be a better default? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.154.38.113 (talk) 10:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Sony NEX was described as having a pseudo-APS-C sized sensor, while Samsung NX a quasi-APS-C sensor. I have taken the libery to remove those qualifiers, because, while the sensors are, indeed, smaller than Advanced Photo System Classic film frame, I think the term APS-C is, in general, used generously to describe all imaging surface roughly that size.--Polymeris (talk) 10:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
(I'd make some changes, but it's been years since I've edited en wp) :-) - tychay (tchay@wikimedia) (talk) 00:20, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I feel this article is rather confusing and hard to read, as it has too many mentions of systems, sensor sizes and other technical details pertaining to one brand/model of camera or the other. I am not an expert in this topic and not very experienced with wiki guidelines either, but this paragraph --just an example, there are many other similar cases-- reads like if everyone wanted to make sure their prefered camera brand or model was mentioned:
"Not all MILCs have a large sensor: Pentax Q (announced in June 2011) has a 1/2.3" sensor (typical of compact cameras). In September 2011 a new sensor format was announced by Nikon for its first MILC: the CX format,[2] with a sensor area 2.6 times bigger than the 1/1.7" sensor equipping high-end compact cameras, and about half the size of a Four Thirds sensor.[3] The Sony NEX looks like a compact camera with a zoom lens, but has a larger sensor; its APS-C sensor is the same size as that of most (amateur) DSLRs.[4] The Samsung NX10 (APS-C) and Panasonic Lumix DMC-G2 (Micro Four Thirds) have larger bodies and appearance similar to DSLRs[citation needed], but are significantly smaller than entry-level DSLRs."
Would a lot be lost if it was replaced by a one or two sentences that just said MILC sensor sizes ranged from comparable to compact camera to APS-C? The details are available in a table further down anyway!
C.f. the DSLR article: not every paragraph contains a comparison of available systems.--Polymeris (talk) 07:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
The last sentence in the Benefits section is incomplete.
Dcell59 (talk) 16:18, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I am not a camera expert, but from what I know, the information in this article refers to what are most commonly known in the UK as Compact System Cameras, and I have never heard the term MILC. But the page for that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_System_cameras) is just a stub, while this one is full of information (maybe too full). Perhaps this is because this page was mostly written about 5 years ago. Kylotan (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
In section 4.1: Bridge cameras, I read "The small sensors on bridge cameras also boast an extremely high crop factor (typically above 5.0), thus allowing such cameras to achieve zoom ranges that are physically impossible on DSLRs and cameras utilizing larger sensors." Is it correct to say that a crop factor has an effect on zoom range? I understand DOF and the way the photographer composes the shot are affected, but it's not 'physically impossible' to crop the center of the image on a larger sensor. Perhaps 'apparent zoom range' is better? Am I missing something? 36.54.64.147 (talk) 13:35, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
The article uses the "mirrorless" term a lot when referencing MILCs. This is very confusing, especially when describing the difference between a MILC (mirrorless, interchangeable lens) and a Compact (mirrorless, non-interchangeable lens). I suggest we try to use the term "mirrorless" as least as possible, and possibly add a sentence about this confusion. Lonaowna (talk) 14:26, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Mention of bridge cameras in the article about MILC cameras is superfluous and tangential. Bridge cameras are not interchangeable lens cameras and occupy their class of modern digital cameras. An article about bridge cameras already exists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wizardly79 (talk • contribs) 12:22, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
A section devoted to benefits and drawbacks early in the article is redundant to a section about comparisons. Can these be combined? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wizardly79 (talk • contribs) 12:26, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I started doing some copy edits on the article, but I think it requires more than I can supply at this point. Some points to consider:
Is there any good reason why [[2]] isn't an improvement? I realize that there might be some good content worth saving in there, but someone should point out what that is. Scribolt (talk) 11:36, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
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I removed this as it seems confused, what do you think? "The space reclaimed from not having a mirror-box reduces the size of the camera but it is added to each of the lenses, since a "normal" X mm lens need to have X mm, counted from the sensor (focal plane) to a specific point of the lenses. The misconception of the size of the lenses came because many mirrorless systems have a smaller sensor. But a 50 mm "normal" non-telephoto lenses will always have 50 mm." -Lopifalko (talk) 12:48, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I reverted a couple of references to DSLT as being the most common abbreviation. I had never heard it, and there aren't many hits. It didn't occur to me until later to simply improve it, but it's done now. Is it time to add a discussion about the different abbreviations? EVIL seems the most descriptive to me, but it seems not to be very popular. Groogle (talk) 02:44, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. Consensus is that although technically cameras with fixed lenses that don’t have mirrors are “mirrorless”, the term “mirrorless camera” is used almost exclusively to refer to those with interchangeable lenses and this is the common name for the topic of this article. In other words, the worst case is this topic is the primary topic for this term. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 05:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera → Mirrorless camera – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. None of the titles of the article's references use the full name. Rublov (talk) 18:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Although interpreting the meaning of the words individually might hypothetically give that impression, the MILC term is only used in this exact form (as far as I know) to refer to digital cameras.- you can substitute "mirrorless camera" for "MILC" without changing the truth value of this proposition. Regarding point-and-shoot cameras, it seems commonly understood that this is a separate category from mirrorless cameras: [3], [4], [5]. Rublov (talk) 11:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Hello! I and @Lynxano have written a new introductory section for the article. It now more clearly outlines the unique aspects and differences of mirrorless cameras, especially for people who may not be familiar with professional photography and the jargon surrounding it. With mirrorless cameras becoming more and more widely known, and Wikipedia a common resource for looking up information, it makes sense for the introduction to be more accessible.
I'm not a professional photographer and I don't know much about cameras, so I helped by making sure the text was understandable to someone like me. :)
The rest of the article could still use work on being more generally accessible, but we had to start somewhere! CauliflowerMoon (talk) 13:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)