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A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 29, 2016. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Mask of Agamemnon (pictured) is probably the most famous artifact from Mycenaean Greece (c. 1600–1100 BC)? |
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All the famous ancient Greeks seem to have lived after the dark age that followed this era, that the Myceneans didn't have a written language/written records. What about the most important people, such as kings of the cities? Do know know any of their names? 173.76.166.185 (talk) 00:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
I'm afraid that some sections, especially the first three ones, need to be written from scratch: "Mycenaean civilization" appears to be an extensive summary about what will follow in the text, "Historical correlations" makes extensive use of hard to understand archaeological terms (not to mention both of them lack inlines). Even "Identity" needs to be backed with desent (post-80s) bibliography. I plan to make some large-scale improvements.Alexikoua (talk)
All the dates have to be revised to further back in time. Radiocarbon testing of olives found in pyroclastic flows at Thera put the explosion at 1630 BCE give or take a few years. 100.15.117.34 (talk) 14:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
@Ario1234: Thanks for your recent contributions. I was planning to add a paragraph summarizing the study by Skourtanioti et al. (2023) back in January 2023 (when i originally added the reference to the article), but forgot about it. Furthermore, there are some issues with some of your edits that are based on the two studies by Lazaridis et al. (2022); specifically, the number of the new Mycenaean samples that were analysed being 24, and the steppe-related ancestry for two samples from Kastrouli and the Palace of Nestor being 38±14% and 24±4%, respectively.
Regarding the number of the samples, depending on which of the two studies we look at, the new Mycenaean samples appear to have been either 21 (per Fig. 1 in A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and West Asia [2022]; 25 with previously published ones) or 25 (per supplementary Data S1 in The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe [2022]; though, also 25 per Fig. 5E which seems to include both previously published and newly analysed samples). Taking into account that the previously published Mycenaean samples were four, i believe that 21 is the correct number for the new Mycenaean samples that were analysed.
As for the two aforementioned samples with the highest proportion of EHG ancestry from Kastrouli and the Palace of Nestor, i believe that their approximate steppe-related ancestry constitutes improper editorial synthesis. Indeed, the claims are plausible and even corroborated by the following quote from A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and West Asia (2022):
Given the evenly balanced proportions of these components in the Yamnaya and the "high steppe" cluster from the Balkans, it can be assumed that the Eastern European hunter-gatherer component in the Aegean was not introduced there on its own, but was accompanied by an approximately matching amount of Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry, ...
Having said that, this is a general observation, and we cannot be certain about the steppe-related ancestry of individual samples from different locations and time periods. Take for example the Kastrouli sample with an EHG proportion of 19±7%; you assumed a matching amount of CHG ancestry, and thus stated that the individual probably had 38±14% steppe-related ancestry. However, on the same page (240) from the supplementary text of The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe (2022) we see that the sample actually had 12±7% CHG ancestry. Wouldn't it be better to remove these figures? Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:18, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
However, two-way models with all of the above sources as well as 'Mainland MLBA' fit the allele frequencies of all the LBA individuals from Crete ('Crete LBA'). This also applied when we modelled the two clusters from LBA Crete separately (Fig. 4a and Supplementary Table 9) but for the Crete LBA (group C) with high WES ancestry (individuals XAN030, KRO008, KRO009 and published Armenoi), just one source from 'Mainland MLBA' became adequate.
We found various sources ranging from East Europe, to Central and South Europe adequately fitting most models for the LBA Aegean groups. The smaller and heterogeneous sample of BA Bulgarian individuals or BA Sicily did not fit. Models with Serbia (EBA), Croatia (MBA) and Italy (EMBA) were adequate most of the time, while those with 'W. Eurasian Steppe En-BA' (En, Eneolithic) or some Central European source (for example, Germany LN-EBA 'Corded Ware') were adequate for all groups at the P ≥ 0.01 cutoff. Therefore, at the moment it is not possible to more closely identify the region(s) from where this genetic affinity was derived.
Hello Botterweg14, and I figured we had better discuss this! I certainly understand your qualms, and as originally written, I would agree that it does not represent the current state of scholarship--especially as to dating the eruption. However, the eruption and possibly associated tsunamis seem very much still "in the mix" with regard to explanations for Minoan decline, and in turn, an upturn in Mycenaean fortunes. I obviously know the difficulty of proving a negative, but can you point me to places which might rule out the theory? I am finding a lot of qualified references in the mode of "it has been proposed that...." but, as I say, it still seems like at least a notable possibility. That seems on its face WP:DUE for inclusion to me. That said, my in-depth research days are well behind me and I would be happy to see newer evidence! Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:40, 31 January 2024 (UTC)