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(cur) (last) . . 20:33, 17 Feb 2004 . . 24.45.99.191 (cur) (last) . . 03:00, 17 Feb 2004 . . Mirv (quit trying to whitewash this organization)
Upholding the Wiki NPOV is not "whitewashing" anything.
The group was NOT founded in 1960. 1974. Where do you get your facts?
Mirv, just quit trying to "Jewish POV" smear this organization, verses only keeping a Wiki NPOV.
They are a White Separatist Political Organization.
"A supremacist -- of whatever race -- is distinct from a 'separatist.' A separatist may believe that his race is superior to other races in some or all characteristics, but this is not his essential belief. The separatist is defined by his wish for freedom and independence for his people. He wishes them to have their own society, to be led by their own kind, to have a government which looks claiout for their interests alone. The separatist does not wish to live in a multiracial society at all, so he naturally has no desire to rule over other races -- since such rule necessitates the multiracial society the separatist wants to avoid at all costs."
They are not "Neo-Nazi's", just because some JDL or ADL or other Marxist or Jewish political group falsely claim that they are.
Thanks! :D
I don't agree with "race-hate fiction". I don't think that was a NPOV way to describe the book. I do think it might be ACCURATE, but "racial revolutionary fiction" is actually more accurate, particularly after seeing the Oklahoma city bombing, etc... (BTW, I was reading the "problem user's" page when I found this issue, so I am aware it is controvercial, and I am NOT that other guy) JackLynch
Jack,
You might not agree with the "message" of such "fiction" but the National Alliance is a white separatist political organization and getting "unbiased" and "accurate" information from any and all such obviously bigoted and leftist and politically-biased groups as the Jewish "ADL" or from pc "pan-atheists" or from pc "marxist-leftists" is therefore very highly unlikely.
You should read the fictional novel, "The Turner Diaries", first-hand and you can buy it at: http://www.amazon.com or just go read what the National Alliance actually says from its' own actual website, at: http://www.natall.com before making any real "decision" as to what you do or what you don't actually "agree with" and go see if it does actually agree with REALITY or not.
Best regards,
Needle aka Paul Vogel
I did read some of it Paul, online, and under fairly funny circumstances. A mixed race (including black and Jewish) roommate of mine insisted that I read it. I got about as far as the 2nd chapter, deciding that I didn't exactly care for the "style". Lets just say I don't find the thesis, prediction, or much of anything else in it particularly believable, and I found it to be less of a page turner than I require. I'm as in favour of hording guns and being independant as the next guy, but I am unconvinced as to the dangers posed to me by black folks. To be perfectly frank I find excess focus on other peoples races to be unhelpful in making friends, prolific in making enemies, and not exactly what Jesus would do when it all comes down to it ;) Sam Spade 18:13, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Dear Sam,
What "thesis", "predictions", or "much anything else in it" did you not find "particularly believable"? What was it about the "style" that you didn't "exactly care for"? What would you consider to be a "page turner" that you require? Curious.
If you are "unconvinced" as to the dangers posed to you by "black folks", maybe I could pose a challenge to your pc "thesis" for you to actually walk the streets late at night in some of these big cities where such "black folks" are the vast majority of the population?
To be truely frank, to "pc-deny" group racial differences is just not very realistic, nor very intelligent, but, to do so, DOES NOT mean that one can't have any friends of any other races, whatsoever. Everyone should be treated as an individual, on a one to one basis, and based upon their own actual strength of character and upon their actual behavior. Jesus would agree with me, there.
Best regards,
Paul Vogel
Paul,
I think this discussion is interesting but entirely off-topic. The duty of this page is to provide an unbiased and objective account of the facts. Your assertation that walking on the streets late at night in big cities is evidence that black people are different is interesting, but it is not objective truth by any means and there is a great deal of controversy on the topic. Your further claim that not only is there a group racial difference, but that to deny it is not realistic or intelligent, is also controversial and unproven. Also, I don't know why there is all this Jesus talk going on. Since when is Jesus a moral authority?
Anyway, the point of all this is that Wikipedia should be objective in fact-telling. Presenting one perspective as "right," until it has been justifiably proven, is against the spirit of reasonable research.
I don't see why you're playing games regarding the Neo-nazi leanings of the National Alliance and William Pierce. There is a great deal of evidence showing the National Alliance is indeed a Neo-nazi group:
Let us see your factual and objective "evidence".
1. The Turner Diaries refers to Adolf Hitler as The Great One. Furthermore, the goal of the fictional revolutionary group in the book is not merely white separatism, it is a group that advocates an all-white world.
Hello. The Turner Diaries is a fictional novel. The goal of the fictional group the "organization" may be one that advocates an all-white world, a "fantasy", but, in the real world and non-fictional National Alliance, they are a political group that only advocates white separatism and only advocates an all-white homeland, or homelands, and not any "fictional nor fantasy" all-white world.
2. http://www.stormfront.org/ns/great.html is an online version of an article published in National Vanguard Magazine, the mouthpiece of the National Alliance. Some quotes:
He was mostly responsible for some of the greatest changes made to our entire civilization, politically, and globally, for both good and for evil, of the last century, or for the last 100 years. The editor or writer of the article is also entitled to their own "opinion", and that one "opinion" does not make the entire National Alliance organization, "Neo-Nazi", either.
What is so "Neo-Nazi" about the "innermost will of Nature"?
If the "innermost will of Nature" is "survival and advancement", is that main idea "Neo-Nazi", alone?
Curious.
Obviously, the author of that specific article likely was a "Neo-Nazi", but, he was only speaking of others of his own kind that are being branded as being such, whether true or not, just as you and some others are falsely branding the National Alliance as being "Neo-Nazi", when they are actually only a White Separatist Political Organization, which is quite revolutionary relative to our existing society.
etcetera, etcetera. 61.120.95.91 23:45, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"The group's own literature, however, does not support this. For instance, a 1989 editorial from National Vanguard, celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Adolf Hitler, says: "April 20 of this year is the 100th anniversary of the birth of the greatest man of our era ... And so the National Socialist philosophy of life corresponds to the innermost will of Nature ... We National Socialists know that with this conception we stand as revolutionaries in the world of today and are branded as such." [http://www.stormfront.org/ns/great.html]"
BTW:, the stormfront organization actually is a "Neo-Nazi" organization and some very few of them actually have joined the National Alliance, but, not all National Alliance members are such "Neo-Nazi's" , so to falsely brand the entire National Alliance organization as being "Neo-Nazi" is really quite false, slanderous, and it usually is deliberately so, only to discredit their own legitimate rights to advocate White Separatism, or for a White Homeland that is for mostly whites only, just as the Jewish Zionist Israeli's have just about recently done with Palestine mostly only for the Jewish People.
It is about POWER and CONTROL over ideas and over the political process amongst the masses, which both Dr. Pierce and the Nazi's actually considered to be a "trait of the Jews", which are both a religion and a culture and an ethnicity.
IMO it is innapropriate to refer to them as "neo" nazi, and rather more accurate to refer to them as just plain nazi. Just my opinion, the evidence seems to me to be pretty clear, but I suppose it depends on how you define "nazi" Sam Spade 18:03, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, it is actually accurate to call the "neo-Nazi": The term was coined to differentiate between the historical group ("the Nazis"), and later groups which hold the same beliefs, but do not belong to the particular movement of national socialism in Germany in the first half of the 20th century. It is a valid and useful distinction. - snoyes 18:27, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Obviously, the author of that specific article in National Vanguard likely was a "Neo-Nazi", but, he was only speaking of and for others of his own kind that are being branded as being such, and whether true or not, just as you here and some others in society in general are always falsely branding the National Alliance or others as being "Neo-Nazi", when they are actually only either a White Separatist Political Organization, or a racialist, not racist, which is quite revolutionary relative to our existing society and its false Political Correctness. Why do some "others" always insist on labeling all of the other others, as opposed to letting the people in question label themselves?
Curious.
It is about POWER and CONTROL over ideas and over the political process amongst the masses, which both Dr. Pierce and the Nazi's actually considered to be a "trait of the Jews", which are a religion and a culture and an ethnicity.
He is entitled to his own opinion, which it was, and not all National Alliance members shared them all. :D
we're white separatists!" I suppose we can't really call these guys a hate group either. They don't hate groups, they just hate individual folks. Lots and lots of individuals. --Modemac 19:04, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Actually, they do call themselves "White Racialist Separatists", only because that much more accurately and objectively describes the National Alliance's own political goals. Notice that such "labeling" of all others is ok when only certain other "others" are actually doing all of the "labeling" or "hating". LOL! :D
Curious.
Kind of like the current rhetoric that the Zionist Israeli's only want peace, and that they don't really "hate" the arab muslim palestinians, they just want to "seperate themselves" with a huge fence, just take more land, and only prevent terrorism and any resistance to their own dispossession of the native non-Jewish palestinian population. Sure. :D
The silly term "Zionist"?
The term or label is Jewish.
"Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra'el, “the Land of Israel”). "...Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century..."
How about the really "silly" pc terms, "White Supremacist? Or "Nazi"? Or "Anti-semite"? Or "Homophobe"? Or "Racist"?, almost everytime someone or anyone is ever critical of any "Jewish Supremacism"?
"A supremacist -- of whatever race -- is distinct from a 'separatist.' A separatist may believe that his race is superior to other races in some or all characteristics, but this is not his essential belief. The separatist is defined by his wish for freedom and independence for his people. He wishes them to have their own society, to be led by their own kind, to have a government which looks out for their interests alone. The separatist does not wish to live in a multiracial society at all, so he naturally has no desire to rule over other races -- since such rule necessitates the multiracial society the separatist wants to avoid at all costs.
A supremacist, in contrast, demands a multiracial society, since it is the supremacist's express wish that he dominate or rule over other races in such a society, such rule often being justified by a doctrine of racial superiority."
From:
http://www.natall.com/pub/012404.txt
Curious.
Texture (Reverted edits by 24.45.99.191 to last edit by Jwrosenzweig - "anyone who is willing to drive a plane into a building to kill Jews is alright by me" is not appropriate)
I do agree, and I have taken it out.
Besides, Mr. Roper is now no longer in any official leadership position within the National Alliance political organization.
I have also added links supporting assertions made regarding the group in a Wiki NPOV fashion.
If you fine IP numbers think I'm posting here as part of a Zionist labelling conspiracy, could you let user:OneVoice over on Current events know? Thanks! - David Gerard 23:16, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
The inline extlinks are incorrectly formatted as though they are wiki links. -- Arvindn 06:40, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This article has been protected from edits for over a week now, & there has been little discussion about the issues that required it to be protected on this Talk: page. Shall this protection be removed now? -- llywrch 22:55, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Once the page is unprotected, the link to The Order needs to be disambiguated to The Order (group). --ESP 01:53, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
If you fine IP numbers think I'm posting here as part of a Zionist labelling conspiracy, could you let user:OneVoice over on Current events know? Thanks! - David Gerard 23:16, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
We all know, David, by your own "actions" and "censorship" and "biased bannings" and "lying hypocrisy" that you are indeed posting with such a POV verses a Wiki NPOV in mind during your posts and editing!! What else isn't new?
Actually, it is the factual explaination that there is a conspiracy against me to ban and censor the truth AND that these same censors and bigots are not "fairly disputing" anything, whatsoever.
You should read it and then just DO what it says, yourself!
Do consider that not being such a "lying hypocrite" would actually give you some "personal integrity", and that would likely create the desire in people with actual personal integrity to "play better" with you, David Gerard. :D
The current article states that the National Alliance believes "whites are the most gifted, kind and spiritually beautiful race". The white supremacy page states that white supremacy is the belief that "white people [are] superior to people of other (and of mixed) races and/or ethnicities". Therefore, wouldn't one say that that a rational, neutral observer would deem them white supremacist?
Texture, how do you know a rational neutral observer would disagree with that statement? --Nazrac 18:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Bcorr, Your assertion that Wikipedia should classify the Jewish conspiracy as a myth because it simply is a myth seems odd. Why is it necessary for Wikipedia to say so? Shouldn't the reader be able to reach that conclusion as self-evident on his or her own? Isn't it the purpose of an encyclopedia to be a /reference/ material, not one that tells people what conclusions to draw?
I changed the sentence back to The National Alliance also propagated the myth that Israeli Jews were advised not to report to work at the World Trade Center that day. It's been changed repeatedly to replace "propagated the myth" with "claimed" on the premise that the first is PV while the second is neutral and factual, since calling anything a "myth" is allegedly POV. That change seems unjustified. -- BCorr|Брайен 15:23, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Bcorr, by replacing "myth" with "hoax", you have replaced one POV term with another. Your insistence that Wikipedia should be passing judgment on the National Alliance is disturbing and appears unfounded. -- Malathion 09:47, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have no idea what you guys think your doing, but we are not an editorial staff, and our function here is not to pass judgement on the positions of various political parties. Hoax and myth have no neutral place in describing the views of others. If you want the article to say something negative about these views (as if it needs doing) find a expert source to quote. Otherwise leave your personal assessments of the factual nature of others claims out of the article. Sam [Spade] 14:41, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There are actually websites that openly and repeatedly call for violence against Jews. The National Alliance does not appear do this in the slightest, but they do criticise the actions of many Jewish and Zionist organizations and they do support Hitler who conducted wide scale murder of jews. However, they appear to applaud some dissident Jews such as Norman Finkelstein; they even sell and promote his book "The Holocaust Industry" on their website.
As in the use of virtually any adjective that refers to one's behavior, the term "AntiSemitic" is purely a matter of judgement, and expressing such opinionated labels as uncontested fact needs to be avoided, especially when dealing with such a potentially libelous accusation.
The National Alliance may sometimes prefer white separatist, but their publications for many years have been openly white supremacist. Not just watchdog groups, but most scholalry texts on the group call it white supremacist and neonazi. --Cberlet 03:10, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the following chunks, some of it is incomprehensible and much of it contains POV or unsupportable statements. --Lee Hunter 20:45, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
There has been a revision war recently over the following sentence:
The group describes it as a call for all races to embrace their various "heritages", but it has also been cited as a propaganda tactic to shroud their other racist messages.
You cannot say that it "has been cited" without actually providing a reference. Otherwise this is nothing but weasel language that is unsubstantiated and a disguised attempt to have Wikipedia pass judgment on the National Alliance. --Malathion 02:56, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know those policies and I didn't violate any one of them. Your edit is fine, it doesn't seem that different to me. The attacks on the page were in effect repeating NA propaganda as if this really was an attempt to help all races, and there is no person on the globe who can be intellectually honest and ignore the fact that NA is an incredibly racist and violent group who attacks other races for their existence, and even this stupid love day tactic comes complete with a blonde haired, blue-eyed aryan woman on the front of the poster. So, my whole point is that trying to justify the NA and their tactics is incredibly blind and racist, which is not a personal attack or a breach of civility, but a statement of fact.--TheGrza 17:49, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the following section because it seems to pretty much duplicate info that appears earlier in the article.
Beginning in 2002, a power struggle arose within the Alliance, as many members, both rank-and-file as well as respected officials, were divided as to whether or not the new leadership would continue to carry out Pierce's program in full. Although most felt the new leaders would do their best, a vocal minority insisted that Pierce's policies were being abandoned.
On April 20, 2005, the Anti-Defamation League outlined a significant ongoing dispute within the National Alliance, which it believes will lead to a "rapid collapse" of the organization. [1] As of April 30, 2005, a large and sudden split within the Alliance has taken place. This division is seen as having been in the making since the death of Pierce, and the ascension of Gliebe as the new chairman of the organization.
An Executive Committee was formed to provide "check, balance and oversight of the governship of the National Alliance body". The committee gave Gliebe a Declaration of Leadership which demanded openness and accountability. Gliebe claimed this represented a coup against the National Alliance, and the declaration was not accepted. Strom, a key member of the Executive Committee, has since left (or been expelled), and has encouraged his supporters within the National Alliance to join him and his lieutenants in a new organization called National Vanguard. Gliebe resigned as chair and became director of Resistance Records.
I altered the White Supremacists to White Separatists, because that is what the National Alliance stands for, but then I read the Controversia sign wich says to read the discussion page before making any changes to the main article. So I am posting here to see if you agree with this:
A White supremacist is one who wants the whites to reign above other races
A White Separatist is one who wants to separate the white race from others
The National Alliance is the second option, so it is White Separatist. Should I change the article?
Thanks ;-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.184.167.11 (talk • contribs) .
== A:
It does cover both parts of the issue, I just tought that calling it White Supremacism was wrong and were I editing it I wouldn't even mention it, for reasons exposed above by myself, but I will check the page White Supremacism and read what it says.
==
== A:
I don't know, but they did mention sending non-whites, especially blacks to Africa during the destruction caused by Hurricane Katrina because they were causing mayhem shootin rescuers etc. Later I will put the link to where this is mentioned, but it does not mean this is really how they want to do it, I don't really know. I don't know if it is "impossible" to separate the races, but they certainly don't stand for ethnic groups living together with the whites ruling. They want an all-white country instead. Later I will provide you the link. ;-)
If you want to correct spelling errors in my writing please do, I'm brazilian and interested in learning english better. ==
71.131.245.179 01:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the article should continue to refer to them as white supremists. When segregation was happening, white supremists would insisst they weren't rascist, they just thought "blacks should be seperated" and claimed their facilities were "seperate but equal", every educated person knows this was bullshit, just like they know the National Alliance is a white supremist organization.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
71.131.245.179 20:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The intro twice mentions that the group self-identifies as "white nationalist" but critics believe they are "white supremacist". This redundancy should be fixed. We don't need this comment twice in one paragraph! Phiwum 11:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
What do people think about moving this article to National Alliance (United States) and placing National Alliance (disambiguation) here? I only suggest this as some of the other NAs are of greater importance to their domestic politics than the American one (notably in Italy). However, considering this particular article attracts a lot of edits and has a huge number of links I though i would be beter to see what the general opinion was before going ahead with any move. Keresaspa 17:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I saw something on the National Alliance on TV today. So I went to this page and noticed that someone was claiming this was a homosexual group, founded by a gay prostitute. While I absolutly do not agree with the National Alliance, there is no excuse for vandalism in the article. Anyone who wants to unlock it, go ahead. 3D jonny 19:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does it say they claim to be a white nationalist group? They can be white nationalist and white supremacist. If their supremacism is in dispute, that should not effect the fact that they are white nationalist as well, since that is what they call themselves it would not simply be a claim.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.146.215.8 (talk • contribs) January 6, 2007 (UTC)
That's the way its described by reliable sources (according to our criteria). Dougweller (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:04, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
There's a story circulated all over canuck news channels. National Alliance was denied a $200K inheritance will from some evil racist. Bnai Brith helped this court ruling, very satisfied — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.161.146.190 (talk) 05:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia generally does not cite white supremacist websites, independent secondary sources are needed to claim the group is still active, and that it is the same group and not an imitation. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:48, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia should cite so-called "white supremacist" websites and not so-called "independent secondary sources", when the article is actually on those particular groups or websites.Why? Because ANY primary and direct sources are always more up to date and are more factual. It is the same group, as the addresses and po boxes are the same. No one said that anyone in NC has taken over the group. William White Williams, the new NA Chairman, lives in Tennessee.
The SPLC is often mentioned as being a "reliable independent secondary source by Wikipedia"? Sure it is! LOL! :D
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.34.131.84 (talk) 11:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
What does that symbol mean? It is like the symbol of national crows party (Alfred J. Kwak) or like upsidedown hippi symbol of peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.95.230.168 (talk) 23:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
84.95.229.31 (talk) 19:01, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
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Grayfell, et al. appear to be removing links from the article ruse of wikiguidelines, but really for what appears to be a political agenda. For example, Official links AKA WP:ELOFFICIAL, An official link is a link to a website or other Internet service that meets both of the following criteria: 1. The linked content is controlled by the subject (organization or individual person) of the Wikipedia article. 2. The linked content primarily covers the area for which the subject of the article is notable.
These are obviously relevant links to the organization, but grayfell, et al. are removing them from the article, even though relevant. TonyMorris68 (talk) 10:15, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I am an opponent of the National Alliance, but would like to think that I have improved it somewhat over the last month or so. I think that NA members should contribute to either expanding this article or clarifying some points within it. You might even cause a consensus among Wikipedians that the NA is back, as I quoted Will Williams as saying in the WW subsection. We don't have to be at cross purposes: I think that the NA is misguided but have tried to summarize its recent history using what RS's say, and would welcome a good faith effort from the organization to engage in apologetics about itself. Help me out here. 47.137.184.131 (talk) 00:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
It would be a very bad idea for anybody with a conflict of interests to try to edit the article. Anybody who has any independent Reliable Sources showing that this organisation is still active to a notable degree, and that it really is the same organisation and not just a new group reusing the name, is feel free to suggest them here. Blank assertions will get you nowhere but good sources might. --DanielRigal (talk) 11:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
https://www.natall.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.197.239.8 (talk) 13:46, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
I have found a source that I think will be useful to expand the Cosmotheist church section:
However, it contradicts the existing sources by stating that "(Christian Identity) is not the same as Cosmotheism."
I would like interested editors to review the source and suggest how best to incorporate it into the article, and clarify if it is neccesary to scrap the other sources or somehow merge the conflicting information.
Also, it appears that someone tried to edit recently, and gave reason as that the organization opposes Christianity. Clearly, the existing sources say that it is, but given that the source linked above agrees with that editor, maybe there is something to their claim. 2600:1012:B138:62A8:0:32:8393:CE01 (talk) 21:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)