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Filanca 17:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This is not a Greek nationalist book. Filanca 21:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is noone's nationalistic book... keep this in mind... Hectorian 22:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Evidently, I did not make this article a Turkish nationalist one. For one thing, most of your claims are still there, awaiting for a citation. MY changes are being constantly deleted though. Filanca 22:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
What else do you want as a reply?
Filanca 22:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
In our haste to reply, I think we have both overseen some of the things the other has written:
Filanca 23:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
What you call "negligable" was half of the population. Historical Greek and Turkish neighborhoods are comparable in size. Island's current winter population is about 2.500, there had been some native population increase. Thus there was no great migration to the island. I do not object anyone calling the island any way in their languages, but we should respect to what people call it. I didnt remove Bozcaada is the official name, I only added it was also the name used by inhabitants. Filanca 00:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC) And if you consider the island was totally emptied at the end of 14th century, just prior to Ottoman rule, all of its inhabitants were probably came from mainland Anatolia. Filanca 00:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
There are at least two independent sources for the island being empty from the end of 14th century to the middle of 15th. But repopulation of the island by settlers from Anatolia is merely my guess, based upon proximity to the mainland, so I didn't write it in the article. It is also possible that settlers came from other islands or even some families of original islanders came back from Crete (some 50 years after they left?). Filanca 09:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC) Why do you insist on deleting the information about the islanders callig the island as Bozcaada? As it is, the article is giving the false impression that Bozcaada is a name coined and used only by Turkish government, while this is not true. We are here to provide correct information, besides it is rude to deny the name used by local population, do not delete my changes please. Filanca 10:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
To sum up: Bozcaada is not an officially coined name, it is a name used by its inhabitants since a long time and currently THE name of the island for the remaining islanders. Your version of the article is WRONG. Filanca 11:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think we need to supply sources for such simple facts like the name of an island in a particular language. If you have doubt, any search in Google in Turkish pages would do. I didn't ask for change in English usage, naturally English speakers will decide on it. Just don't delete my note about Bozcaada being current usage of people living on the island, otherwise the article is giving the false impression that it is only an official name coined by Turkish government. Filanca 20:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
So far I've found one source for that and it is in Turkish. If that is acceptable, I may write it in the article. So I guess the article is OK as it is now? Filanca 18:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC) This map is taken from an Italian web site [2] I had to flip it, since it was misoriented, then cropped to show the island alone. It is drawn by Turkish cartographer Piri Reis in the 16th century, depicting Bozcaada / Tenedos with good detail (even small rocks are visible). Look at the 2nd line under the hill. It is written in Ottoman alphabet: ﺍﺩﻩ and ﺑﻮﺫﺠﻪ which can be rendered to latin alphabet as "BVZCA ADA", or Bozcaada by modern Turkish latin. Filanca 21:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
right. WP:ATT policy also states: "A questionable source is one with no editorial oversight or fact-checking process, or with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as fringe or extremist; are promotional in nature... Questionable sources should not be used, except in articles about themselves." so it we are to abide by this rule, we should remove "website on the misfortunes" from references. since the article itself says that source is "tendentious". not only it is against wikipedia rules, there is also an ethical problem with using such extremist partisan pages as reference. they spread hatred and enmity. by quoting them, we increase their google rate, help them seem more reliable by being quoted by wikipedia, and diminsh the reliable image of this encyclopedia. Filanca 16:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC) Evacuation of the island
This is fascinating; but it should have a secondary source supporting it. Does deserted here mean literally zero population, or does it mean, for example, that the Venetian settlement was evacuated? There are parallels in Xenophon for both. Septentrionalis 06:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC) there are some other sources:
it seems venetian-genoese war was a very important event in the history of the island and i intend to write more on it when i have time. Filanca 17:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC) i am aware that i havent yet found a source saying the island was completely evacuated, yet i think there is enough reason to say venetians not only evacuated the island themselves, but also deportated greeks and the remaining population (if any) was negligible. Filanca 21:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
www.katolsk.no is a secondary source, saying the island is evacuated for a century, although with a question mark. there are two primary sources, those of clavijo and tafur, about the island being evacutaed. laiou paper is a secondary source about 4.000 islanders being settled in crete (that is a great number for this island, if not whole islanders). don't you still think these are enough? i think this information is better documented than most others in the encyclopedia. Filanca 19:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC) i respect your scepticism in historical matters. surely we need sound sources for what we write in this wikipedia, and in history that means we need good second hand resources. you'd appreciate that internet is not full of such material. and i find it strange when you still question an information with maybe not perfect, but quite good references, while you accept a statement like "In all likelihood, the island was inhabited primarily by ethnic Greeks from ancient times through to around the middle of the twentieth century" without questioning. Filanca 21:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
i didn't get at, nor implied the thing you said, don't make me seem like done things i didn't :) but since you alluded to it, yes, the island was probably populated by greeks and turks in the beginning of ottoman era. the mosques in the island are quite old. (see [7]) this would not be the only ex-venetian island that ottomans settled by their turkish and greek orthodox subjects living in anatolia, the other big example being cyprus. there too, muslim and orthodox settlement occured together. so turkish and greek re-settlement of tenedos being in close dates is something one can reasonably "get at", yes, but i avoid adding such probable but undocumented information into an article. about your "even if the island was evacuated", after finding 4 seperate sources, 2 primary, 2 secondary, there is little doubt that it was emptied by venetians but good ehough reason to doubt that settlement was continuous. Filanca 19:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
The result of the proposal was Still no consensus to move. Cúchullain t/c 13:01, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Tenedos → Bozcaada – Frankly, I would be shocked that the Greek name continues to be used rather than the Turkish if it werent for centuries of bias against the names and conventions of Eastern peoples. Somehow we've let the leash out a bit and allowed for names like Mumbai (not Bombay) and Sri Lanka (not Ceylon), but we continue with the anachronistic usage of the Greek name Tenedos. The vast majority of major publications use Bozcaada, including the New York Times, Lonely Planet, Fodors - why is Wikipedia insisting on being anachronistic? The point of Wikipedia per its guidelines is to adopt the common usage as per established and well-read sources -- such as the US' main newspaper and the largest travel guides. Mlepori (talk) 20:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Oppose This has been discussed an innumerable number of times before, and the current state of the literature in the English language is that Tenedos is more common than Bozcaada. Athenean (talk) 21:33, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Support The majority of English publications refer to the island as Bozcaada. For one example, the editors of the New York Times refer to it as Bozcaada in a recent (7/4/2012) article: http://travel.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/travel/on-a-turkish-isle-winds-tend-the-vines.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.54.240.127 (talk) 07:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Oppose The island is internationally recognized as Tenedos, under the terms of the Treaty of Laussane, and still part of the de jure administration of Imbros and Tenedos. Apart from that English bibliography prefers the name Tenedos too.Alexikoua (talk) 15:37, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Oppose - doing a move request every half year doesn't change the fact that Tenedos is more common in English. Besides opposing this 3rd move request within a year, I also propose a 2 year "snowball close" on all further move requests. Maybe in 2 years the commonly used name in English might have changed, although I would be highly surprised by that! noclador (talk) 16:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Support - if major US newspapers are using Bozcaada, then Wikipedia needs to do so also. 71.192.30.158 (talk) 13:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Support - the Independent (national UK newspaper) also refers to the island as Bozcaada (2009): http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/europe/unspoilt-and-cheap-can-bozcaada-really-be-in-the-med-1785745.html. Seems most major English publications use Bozcaada nowdays, which the guidelines suggest should be the main determinant of a page's title. 50.138.134.200 (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
"In 1822, during the Greek War of Independence, the revolutionaries under Konstantinos Kanaris managed to attack and burn the Ottoman flagship off Tenedos" was changed by me because it is incorrect. The Flagship was left unharmed, while Kanaris destroyed one of the other ships. From Robert Vaughn's history (available here, pg. 456): "On the 10th of November, the war was illustrated by another brilliant exploit of Kanaris. The Ottoman fleet was riding anchor between Tenedos and the Troad. Two line-of-battle ships were anchored windward of the rest of the fleet. Kanaris steered a fire-ship right on the windward quarter. The sails of the fire-ship were nailed to the mast and steeped in turpentine. The Greek hero performed his task with his usual coolness and perfect contempt of danger. He scarcely had time to jump into little boat and row off, ere the flames burned up higher than the maintop of the seventy-four. The crew leaped into the sea and most were drowned, as they were far from the shore. The huge vessel blazed up, and the magazine exploded, killing, it is said, eight hundred men. The companion of Kanaris, who, in a sister fire-ship, undertook the destruction of the flag-ship, failed in his enterprise, and the fire-ship burned harmlessly." This is a preferred source to the original source that said Kanaris destroyed the flagship because it provides significantly more context than a brief mention with limited original citations.
I will again change the context to properly reflect the historical accuracy that a brave attack destroyed an Ottoman ship, but not the flagship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbstractIllusions (talk • contribs) 02:00, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
It clearly appears that that the ship wasn't just a ship (i.e. the flagship of the vice admiral).Alexikoua (talk) 14:03, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I reedited the Late Middle Ages section with sourcing in all instances. Four source references were removed. 1. Intratex of the Byzantine empire is a bad source. 2. the Doaks source is broken and I couldn't find what it was about. 3. Treadgold was a good source removed on accident, will be put back in. But, the Charanis source was problematic and maybe should be returned(?). The original text wrote: " 4000 Greek islanders from Tenedos were resettled in Crete and Euboea.[1][2]" I have poured over Charanis Studies book (the source of this claim) to try and find the relevant page or confirm the evidence elsewhere. Does anyone have a good link or the page in Charanis studies where this claim is provided? It seems historically relevant, but I could find no quality confirmation. Thanks to Dr.K for opening this conversation. AbstractIllusions (talk) 03:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
References
chanaris
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).More fact-checking the sources. This time the "Chronology of Catholic Diocese" source seems highly problematic. The claim it is supposedly providing evidence for is "The island remained depopulated[22][21] for about 72 years before the arrival of Ottomans in 1455[49]". So I follow the links to this page at katolsk.no which does not seem to be excellent evidence for the claim, for a few reasons:
I think this source should be removed from the article, the claim should stand with the Kiminas source only linked. Hive says? AbstractIllusions (talk) 14:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
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Has anyone suggested "Tenedos or Bozcaada" or "Bozcaada or Tenedos "? Chrisrus (talk) 01:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
@Dr.K, the failure of your example has nothing to do with the nature of the naming discussion. It has to do with it being invalid and incomparable. You're free to find an example that is useful. @Chrisrus, that is no different than the Imia/Kardak example. New Moore/South Talpatti is a region claimed by two different states. Bozcaada is not claimed by Greece or any other state to be theirs. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 03:17, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Are there any other places that are part of one country but with the majority who live there from the other country and they have two different names for the same place? Aren't there some places in the Baltic that belong to, say Finland, but are populated mostly by, say for example, Swedes, and everyone pretty much who lives there calls it one Sweedish thing, but officially it's called thing two becuse it's owned by, say for example, Finland? If so, what do we do? Chrisrus (talk) 03:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Ok. So does everyone agree that the GoogleBooks data proves that the other name used to be what it was called in English. No one claims that one name is what English maps and stuff used to use, but that English maps and such no longer use the old name? Or do they have proof that at least some of these GoogleBooks hits are modern and as authoritative? Chrisrus (talk) 14:22, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
@Athenean, does your Google searches account for the results that are about ancient history of the island? TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 17:25, 24 August 2012 (UTC) @Athenean, I also see that you claim guidebooks to use official names as a policy. Are you sure about that? TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC) @Chrisrus. So, to answer your questions, 1. No one disputes the privilege for Bozcaada in modern, reputable sources like Encylopedias, Atlases, and Library of Congress Subject headings. 2. No one has provided another reference to the modern island in an Encyclopedia, Atlas, or major subject heading that uses Tenedos (the closest I came was 2005 Webster's unabridged, but the online version now uses Bozcaada and I looked at everything I could find). 3. As is clear, Google Books hits is the major ground for those arguing for Tenedos, saying that the large difference in numbers of hits for Tenedos provides clear evidence of common usage in a modern context. That's the crux of the debate right now. AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Is it necessary to vote? Everything is so clear; Bozcaada is the name of the island that used to be known as Tenedos... --E4024 (talk) 23:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I want to thank the editors in this section for staying on topic and dealing with substantive issues related to the dispute. Kudos, this is what discussion ought to look like! :-) Cinque stelle (talk) 01:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
We have 11 support with only 2 of them IP accounts and 7 oppose. Even if we take out the 2 IP accounts that makes 9 against 7. Attacking new editors as being single purpose accounts is not ok. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 22:08, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
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We've reached a standstill on the discussion of whether to rename Tenedos to Bozcaada. WP policy would seem to indicate that Bozcaada is the preferred page name given the prevalence of usage by modern English media (newspapers, travel guides, atlases). The "pro-Tenedos" side does not see it this way, citing the hit count in Google Books (which seems to favor Tenedos) as overturning any other evidence. Would be nice for the community at large to review the arguments and help forge a consensus. Cinque stelle (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 23:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:LEDE, the article's lede is supposed to present a summary of the article's main contents. I think the Greek community, to which a significant portion of the article is dedicated to (including a table that takes up about half the article), qualifies for inclusion in the lede. This subject is certainly more notable than all that "wine" and "grapes" stuff. My addition is neutrally worded and sourced to a top-notch source, I don't see any valid grounds for its removal. It is only one sentence, so there is no question of WP:UNDUE either. Athenean (talk) 15:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
(unindent) The details I added were suggested by AbstractIllusions, and I don't see why they are objectionable anyway. By the way, I have found an excellent in-depth source on the island [24] (these are hard to find). I may use it to make edits to the main text in the future, while I am satisfied with the current state of the lede. Athenean (talk) 16:37, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Why does the lede end in the 1970s? If you're going to make the lede a lightning-summary of the island's history, shouldn't it progress to the present day? As is, it reads like a history of the Greek people of Tenedos, rather than a history of Tenedos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.165.187.203 (talk) 20:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
The de jure status of the island is described by the Treaty of Laussane, which is still in force today. In fact this piece of information is described in detail inside the article and the provisions of the Treaty are well referenced.Alexikoua (talk) 15:05, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
(Text of the Treaty)
1. In English (one of the two official languages of the treaty):
"Article 14
The islands of Imbros and Tenedos, remaining under Turkish sovereignty, shall enjoy a special administrative organisation composed of local elements and furnishing every guarantee for the native non-Moslem population in so far as concerns local administration and the protection of person and property. The maintenance of order will be assured therein by a police force recruited from amongst the local population by the local administration above provided for and placed under its orders.
The agreements which have been, or may be concluded between Greece and Turkey relating to the exchange of the Greek and Turkish populations will not be applied to the inhabitants of the islands of Imbros and Tenedos."
2: In French (one of the two official languages of the treaty):
Here.
We are not here to make original research. Nor we are academicians to evaluate primary sources like a treaty text. Nor we are historians to have recorded which elements of this text are still valid, or not, after which acts by the concerned parties. Anyway, leave all the above-said apart, could someone show me the words "autonomy" in these English and French texts? I only see "organisation" and "local administration". Organisation does not mean autonomy. Neither local administration means anything more than municipal functions. Could someone tell us that the word "autonomy" did dot exist in 1923? Then why is it not in this text? Have the Governments of the States Parties to this Peace Treaty left it to us, a bunch of Wikipedians, to decide whether that article envisages an autonomy? On the other hand, why not the first paragraph does not make reference to Greeks but "non-Moslem population"? Could it be because the first Turkish (Republican) Constitution of 1920 was not a secular one, although only four years after this treaty it was secularised? (BTW the second paragraph does not either say anything about "the Greek population of those two islands" if one understands English -or French- well.) In short, let us not invent a status of autonomy that is in our own thinking, not that of the Governments that signed the said Treaty, please... --E4024 (talk) 20:16, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
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In principle, all Wikipedians are invited to discuss on the request. But frankly I don't see why we should focus on historians. This article is not about history. Almost all articles may have sections about history (Even chemical elements) But this does not mean that the article is about history. In fact there is no notable event in the history of the island other than occasional captures (like all other islands of the World). The article is about a administrative division (district) of Turkey which is situated on the island.(seeDistricts.) Since this is clear by now, starting another discussion with the historians may only mean delaying the move. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
No, I am not kidding. I am serious and I am tired of repeating. This article is not "Ancient History of Tenedos" or "Tenedos in mythology". In such a case I'd vote for Tenedos instead of Bozcaada. (Actually in one of the history articles I've created, I prefered the name Tenedos). But this article is about a district and island of Turkey and its name is Bozcaada in maps. It is only too natural to use the valid name. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
This obsessive -every month- request for a new title, should at least be initiated by users which at least can get rid from these pov campaings.Alexikoua (talk) 15:23, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. Would this help? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Polls_are_evil This has gone on far too long. It doesn't matter how many vote to keep a historical name in favor of the modern one. Just do it. Can we move it today? Chrisrus (talk) 17:16, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
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