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"Geller has since admitted that he has not been in contact with Jackson since this time. Geller says that he has split with Jackson because of anti-Semitic statements Jackson had purportedly made" - Please correct me if I'm wrong but I cannot see any mention of this in the referenced article, I think the line should be deleted. Waffle247 (talk) 14:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Uri boldly stated there was a difference between himself and magicians. He was always willing to subject himself to scientific scrutiny in the laboratory. He defied magicians to do the same. ref (The Search For Psychic Power by David Hammond, Bantam books, 1975) James Randi's Project Alpha did just that. Two young amateur magicians thoroughly fooled scientists in the lab into believing they possessed psychic powers. It was a blow to the credibility of parapsychologists and their science. User:Kazuba 18 Mar 2007 Are not friends allowed to disagree?
I think it totally belongs on this page, it would be naive to think that randi wasnt out to get at geller with project alpha, he was always one of his leading critics and he knew what effect it would have on him and his performances, it was the great motivator.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.4.74.65 (talk • contribs) 18:19, 19 April 2007
James Randi's motivations are actually very clear, if you read the web site of The James Randi Foundation (www.randi.org) -- he is motivated by any and all fraud, misdirection, or misleading usage of claims of paranormal behavior. This includes, but is not limited to, Uri Geller's claims. Randi's motivation is further fueled by his knowledge that even scientists are fallible, and that as a professional illusionist he is able to show how many of these claims can be faked. It falls under that saying from Carl Sagan -- "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." And the "psychics" that Randi targets are making extraordinary claims without giving ANY proof, as defined in a strict scientific context. The fact that Geller is one of these who refuses to give any proof as to how what he does is not sleight-of-hand (or other well known devices) doesn't mean that Randi has singled him out. Oh, and let's not forget the Randi Foundation's "million dollar challenge" -- if ANY paranormal claims that are in the media spotlight can be proven to exist in a proper scientific study (with appropriate controls in place) then the claimant will be given a one million dollar prize that is currently being held in escrow pending such proof. And who can honestly say "I don't need a million dollars"? (Given his current legal struggles, I'll bet Geller could use every penny he can get -- why doesn't he go after this prize?)
I dont think a journalists opinions of a fictional and un prooveable curse on a spoon bending celebrity belong on Wikipedia. Honestly..... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.127.73.46 (talk) 14:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
I was reading about the copyright dispute on the inquirer. Not the most reliable source perhaps but I think it's accurate. From what I can tell, both James Randi and Geller agree that there is one clip in the youtube thing whose copyright is owned by Geller. The primary point of contention is whether the use of it is legal in either the US or the UK under their respective fair use/critical commentry laws. The clip in question is 3-10 seconds long. While Geller might be an idiot, it's important we're accurate here IMHO. Currently the article suggests that nothing in the video is copyrighted by Geller Nil Einne 07:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
"Geller semi-retired from public life in the 1980s, although he returned to the screens for the current affairs show Uri Nation in the early nineties, which could be seen then on satellite TV."
This was in the article since March 2006! And upon checking, this is an obviously fake info. Moreover, it has spread to other languages. Just another reason why Wiki sucks. --Sergey Romanov 13:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:Magicofgeller.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Secrets of the PsychicsVideo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
What is the source for the allegation that Feynman considered Geller to be a fraud? If that cannot be substantiated it should be removed according to my imperfect understanding of Wiki rules? SamuelJohnson714 03:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
It's on Richard Feynman's book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!.
Image:Thetruthuri.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 02:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a line in the introduction stating that Gellar has been caught cheating on camera. The introduction didn't make it clear enough that Gellar's claims are pseudoscientific at best, given that wis this new video there can be next to know doubt that he cheats. 68.239.32.46 23:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
My concern that the article is not neutral is because a large proportion of the article appears to be devoted to controversy surrounding the subject of the article. This content in terms of length is longer than the biography provided. It may well be that the content about the controversy may be valid encyclopaedic content but at present it's unbalanced, and may give a reader the wrong impression about the subject of the article. Sfan00 IMG 11:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I did a frame-by-frame study of the video that allegedly shows Uri Geller cheating on camera. All that I could find was that Uri rubbed his thumb, but there is no real evidence of a false thumb. see video: [1] In order for this article to be fair, neutral, and unbaised, it would be best to change statements such as "Geller was caught cheating on camera" to "Geller was allegedly caught cheating on camera" or "Geller was caught cheating on camera, according to James Randi." Failure to do so may make the editor subject to litigation if the editor was not a first-person witness to the alleged incident. This is a standard routine for all forms of news journalism. Fkapnist (talk) 10:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the need to keep the article from being a place to simply record everything negative about the subject, below is an excerpt from official Wikipedia policy. Has a poll ever been taken worldwide to determine the public's approval/disapproval of Mr. Geller? 5Q5 (talk) 22:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
References 13 and 36 are calling an undefined reference named "SkepdicGeller". --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe there is a citation needed about the many languages he speaks. Mr. Geller requires a bilingual interpreter in Germany. I do not believe he speaks German, other than a few words. What is the source for this claim?
Carlosrealm (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the below quote as it seemed to be WP:OR. NNtw22 05:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
In his telepathy demonstrations, Geller sometimes, but not always, reveals his answer slowly while asking whether he is on the right track. This approach is consistent with a stage magic technique known as cold reading, in which a magician tricks a subject into revealing information by suggesting that he already knows it. Geller's approach is apparent in an interview on the Gerry Ryan radio show on February 20, 2002:
- Ryan:
Are you getting the image that I'm sending to you? I'm concentrating very hard on it at the moment.- Geller:
It's very, very hard for me because, you know...- Ryan:
Just say what comes into your head, what's in your head?- Geller:
Well the first thing that I drew was a ... it had a triangular shape at the top. Am I very wrong?- Ryan:
I have sent you an image of the Pyramids. That's it! Are you really? You're not pulling my leg? No!- Geller:
Gerry, I swear to you I drew a pyramid, and I also drew the stones in the pyramid, but I was not sure, so the first image that came into my mind was a triangle and then I drew the lines in it as the stones.
Just to be clear, Uri Geller did not fight with Criss Angel on the show. Criss called out a contestant who claimed to have the ability to speak with the dead. Criss offered both the contestant and Uri the chance to get $1 million if either could tell what was in two envelopes he brought with him. The contestant got loud and angry, and the whole thing escalated into Criss being held back by Uri and the contestant being held back by the show's host. My point is that Uri seemed to ignore the challenge from Criss, and focused on keeping a fight from breaking out.
I removed a section from the page that had incorrectly stated that Criss and Uri got in a fight. - EndingPop 16:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
:Angel did not "fight" with anyone. Yes, a "fight" leads to confusion as it was referring to a "verbal fight" and "argument" is a better word. Please correct information don't just remove a notable event. Uri tends to ignore all challenges. Just last week on the Today show, he was asked if his spoon-bending was a trick and Uri avoided the challenge to his "abilities" refusing to answer. C56C 17:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added the "final chapter" to the Phenomenon argument. On November 21, 2007, Criss Angel again challenged Uri Geller $1,000,000.00 on the finale of NBC's nationally televised "Phenomonon" to tell Angel what was in a sealed envelope and then quickly cut Geller off when he appeared to intuitively begin zoning in on it's content. What was in the sealed envelope were the numbers 911. When Criss Angel asked Geller what was in the envelope Geller for some reason began rattling off dates that unknown to Geller were zoning in on the contents. Uri said Angel was born on the 19th, just 1 day prior to Geller's birthday. He then said that he had bent his 1st spoon when Angel was 1 (years old.) A nervous Angel, knowing what was in the envelope quickly cut him off, and diverted attention by quickly opening the envelope. see video: [3] It is worth noting that Geller apparently knew that the mystery in the envelope was an important date, whereas it could have been a drawing, poem, or other inscription.
That's called cold reading, you say lots of names and things until you hit on one that is right. Criss Angel recognised that he didn't know and cut him off. All he wanted was an answer, Geller was offering a lot of window dressing. If he knew what it was he would have had said something like "Yes it's a date the 11th of September", immediately, the fact that he didn't makes it obvious he didn't know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.36.37.86 (talk) 14:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I also did a frame-by-frame study of the video that allegedly shows Uri Geller cheating on camera. All that I could find was that Uri rubbed his thumb, but there is no real evidence of a false thumb. see video: [4] In order for this article to be fair, neutral, and unbaised, it would be best to change statements such as "Geller was caught cheating on camera" to "Geller was allegedly caught cheating on camera" or "Geller was caught cheating on camera, according to James Randi." Failure to do so may make the editor subject to litigation if the editor was not a first-person witness to the alleged incident. This is a standard routine for all forms of news journalism.Fkapnist (talk) 10:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
this article is elitist, overly-sceptical and biased trash and if its not fixed fors it blatant anti-geller bias i will reocmmend that it be speedy-deletd and it will start over from the very scratch. Smith Jones (talk) 03:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think any of these are covered in the article...rather than crowd the page, inserting the contents where they might best fit, I thought I'd offer these tidbits for evaluation. — Scientizzle 01:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Should he be added as a link under the "Categories: Hoaxes" entry? This guys sounds like quite the charlatan.Ndriley97 (talk) 03:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
While we can agree that this is "potentially" controversial, consensus is not required here as everybody knows that Uri Geller (b. 1946) is older than the Israeli declaration of independence (1948). Also, referring to the edits as "potentially controversial" is bound to get attention and attract controversy. TINYMARK 08:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, TinyMark, but your edits were possibly controversial and thus should have been discussed first. I don't particularly have an opinion on how you want to convey this information, but considering the history of Israel/Palestine issues on Wikipedia, much less in the real world, discussing this first seems like the obvious choice. Natalie (talk) 15:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, but then we should change the birth place of Augustus from Rome, Roman Republic, to Rome, Italy.Kope (talk) 16:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
After a little more research, I think perhaps "Mandate for Palestine" would be appropriate. Palestine was never regarded as a British colony, so "British Palestine" would be misleading. Strangely enough, the Mandate is explained in detail in the Palestine and History of Palestine articles, but there is also a British Mandate of Palestine article, which would make an ideal article to link to. TINYMARK 22:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Simply stating 'Tel Aviv, Israel' for an event that occured in 1946 is sheer historical revisionism. This this is an important principle, not to allow description of geography to be conditioned by nationalist postconstructs. The Middle East is by no means the only region in the world which has seen territorial conflicts, and setting a precedent that factually incorrect labellings can be used isn't leading anywhere. What is the point of writing 'Tel Aviv, Israel' relating to 1946, when Israel had not been founded at the time? 'Palestine' was the term used internationally at the time, including by the Zionist movement. --Soman (talk) 20:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
--206.248.129.16 (talk) 04:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
see "Forget the paranormal!", Telepolis, 05.02.2008.--Nemissimo (talk) 07:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This is why we need full citations of web content. The German TV show that's reverenced in the section Reversal (www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGrn1IkMXbE) has been removed from YouTube by whoever uploaded it, so citation information cannot be provided. The citation was also incorrectly replaced with "fact" tags, on the basis that the YouTube video was a copyright violation. These need to be replaced with the full citation - name of the show, network, date aired, etc., and then it doesn't matter if there's an online copy we can link to or not. Does anyone have this information? Natalie (talk) 13:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Though Randi often says Geller's abilities "are only parlor tricks" he is exaggerating. Geller is a brilliant opportunist who will resort to any and probably all methods of deception available. Randi knows better but he just likes to keep things simple. The mind of a master confidence artist is more complex and devious than that. Take my boy Ingo Swann, who calls himself "the Man who has Astounded Physicists and Parapsychologists Throughout the World" for example. He not only fooled some members of the parapsychological community, he also bamboozled (and still does) members the of the U.S. Army and the CIA. That takes creativity and talent! While walking one dark night I was stopped by a voice coming out of the shadows. "Hey Mister would you be kind enough to help a poor, hungry fellow without a job?" Then was added, "Besides this revolver, I haven't a thing in the world." Kazuba (talk) 18:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Wrong. I have experience. The worst it can be is reality. Watch your language.Kazuba (talk) 17:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I admire Mr. Geller. He has originality. Who's complaining? Kazuba (talk) 19:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Kazuba (talk) It is common knowledge among magicians that Uri Geller has raised the popularity of mentalism. Effects done with spoons and forks are all over the place. (My favorite is when you break it and put it back together). If you have been in magic for the last 25 years it is very noticable. But nothing has appeared in any literature about this except in books of our craft. Magic is a mystery entertainment. The real magic is beyond tricks and is only learned by devotion and practice, practice, practice. I am NOT a skeptic. I am an amateur magic historian with a taste for the VERY unusual and obscure. I am used to being misunderstood. It goes with the territory. Kazuba (talk) 21:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Natalie. These will have to suffice. [8] [9] [10] I have always found it interesting that the teachings of illiterates and preliterates have so little value in literate societies. Put it in writing and THAT'S the story. THAT'S what REALLY happened.Kazuba (talk) 20:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Uri Gellar is pictured on the back cover of aerosmith's one with mirrors album apparently bending a fork with his powers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.187.157 (talk) 04:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Uri Geller is pictured on the back of Aerosmith's 1985 Album "Done with Mirrors". The picture appears to show Uri bending a fork with his powers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.187.157 (talk) 04:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
i am changing this sentence to "claims to have psychic powers" from "claimed" because as far as i know, he still claims to be a psychic. unless he has admitted that it was all trickery, i would think it's accurate to say he still claims to be a psychic. Theserialcomma (talk) 05:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is there nothing here about his relationship with Puharich and all the Uri from the planet HOOVA nonsense? See http://www.zem.demon.co.uk/mind.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.70.130.233 (talk) 02:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Another editor, Niki76 (at User talk:Sladen#name abuse) has raised a concern verifiability of the György Gellér name cited in the lead section. Are we able to substantiate this further? —Sladen (talk) 12:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
It appears that the current name in his (British) passport might be Uri Geller Freud[11]. —Sladen (talk) 12:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
it s ok with the "freud"but saying born Gyorgy Geller born,on the next line,is like saying,My name is Niki,passport Niki,but my name is Nickole.Gyorgy Geller,delete.Where this information get?and why British-Isareli?His parents been brtish or something?Why not British-Israeli-mexican?(you should add this).In some countries names are not having mcommon meanings.Niki for example,my name in Greek means "victory",it s not coming out of Nichole or Nikos.It s ancient Greek from mythology.It can t be anything else.Uri ,means "MY light".I have nothing more to say thank you!--Niki76 (talk) 18:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)Niki76
If he is really Israeli, why does he have an American accent? DavidFarmbrough (talk) 17:46, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Natalie Portman is Israeli, and has an American accent. Keanu Reeves is Lebanese by birth - American accent. Mel Gibson was born in the U.S., moved to Australia as a child where he picked up an Aussie accent, eventually reverting back to an American accent over his acting career... you get the picture. Not everyone retains their native accent over the course of their life. Kt'Hyla (talk) 06:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
The current account of the Tonight Show episod ends with a contradictory claim that Uri was thwarted only at "metal dowsing" and not spoon bending. If this is true, then the entire account should be rewritten because it asserts at the start that it was about spoon bending. If not, this comment should be removed. Phiwum (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The sources that I've read indicate it was spoon bending. I'll put a fact tag on the metal dowsing.--Gloriamarie (talk) 15:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Verification on edit 07:22, 30 April 2009 144.132.163.152 (talk) (48,498 bytes) (→Early life) ?? "Also has ruined Kadabra the Pokemon because of a fued he had with Nintendo." seems like vandalism to me... EDIT: NVM, but that is totally insane of him.Scienceisyourfriend (talk) 18:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Last night when watching the news covering MJ's death I saw an interview on Sky News, where Uri Geller talked a lot about MJ. During the interview he claimed that he "did something highly unethical", specifically hypnotised MJ for a different cause and while he was in a deep trance, asked him if he had touched any children inappropriately, to wich MJ allegedly answered no, and which Uri Geller presented as a kind of evidence that MJ had never done anything like that. I think something about this interview needs to be added to this article, but realize it is controversial so I won't take any action. TH (talk) 03:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Moondial (talk · contribs) seems to be attempting to whitewash Geller's reputation, and, even where the truth is not negative, reverting to Geller's own story.
Questions include:
Some of the edits are improvements in keeping with Wikipedia policies, removing unsourced contraversial data, but most remove sourced data which, although negative, is not contraversial. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I am not, in any way attempting to whitewash Geller's reputation, but I am editing content which is untrue, and does not have a reliable source.
And, most of what I have edited has NOT been sourced, some of it is - but very weak source.
Uri Gellers birth name, is Uri Geller - Proof can be shown in the form of Uri Geller's birth certificate, but you have even stated that this cannot be taken as proof - however you were happy for the previous source to be used, which was a blog in which someone says that a friend told them... and you're happy with the source you have cited - which you have admitted yourself is an unreliable source!?
>>György does not sound like Uri in English
Uri's mother - who named him, was NOT English. In Hebrew György does sound similar to Uri.
György was Uri's cousin who died in a tram accident, the name Uri was chosen by his mother because of the meaning of the name, and because it had a similar sound to the name of his cousin who had died.
>>Occupation: He's either a magician or a psychic, but we should use only what he's called, not what he calls himself.
Who are you to say what Uri Geller is? Uri is called many things by many people, he has been called a mystic, a psychic, a mentalist, a paranormalist, an entertainer, a magician, an illusionist - so why is it that YOU seem to be so keen to call him the one very thing that you know upsets him the most?
Surely it would make sense to call him something that people call him, which he doesn't passionately disagree with? Which would mean calling him just about anything BUT magician.
>>Relationship to Freud: Does his full name not act as a hint that this is true? Also - we're not arguing here over whether or not it is true, we're arguing over whether or not it should be made to look asif Uri is the only one stating this, and this is not the case.
OK so you're saying that this is not a reliable source because "he or his publicist probably wrote it.
I find this innapropriate - this is your opinion, you do not know who wrote it.
Also you state "It certainly can't be traced to an NBC employee." How can you know that - have you contacted NBC and asked them?
Also, you're saying that this isn't a reliable source because it's potentially written by someone to close to the article, yet the previous source used to back up the allegation of Uri gellers name, was a blog post by James Randi himself, in which he said a friend told him it was his real name - and the new source that you added, is from a publicly edited page that anyone could have edited, and that you have admitted yourself is unreliable.
My problem with this article, is it is full of opinion, heresay, very poor sources, and a lot of it looks as if it could have been written by James Randi himself. Please, have a read through the full article and tell me that you can't see that it's full of BLP violations?
Moondial (talk) 01:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I have lengthened the intro, and I have taken out the opinionated & unsupported view that Uri geller is a performer of Magic Tricks, and I have replaced this with both view points, that some people call him a magician, some people call what he does a display of paranormal abilities - I cannot see how anyone can argue that this is not a more fair description than stating he is a magician, which is only a view shared by some - and certainly not by Uri Geller himself.
The previous description is not NPOV, my new description is far more neutral.
I have no problem if someone doesn't like the way this is written, but if you feel you need to change it, please keep NPOV in mind, because stating that he is a "Magician" is taking one side of a hotly debated topic.
Moondial (talk) 00:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi
The discussion about the Youtube Video relating to the compass, is all completely wrong.
First of all, it was stated that it was in the early 90's, in a documentary - completely incorrect yet for some reason allowed to remain by certain editors who seem very willing to undo edits which make the article more neutral, but seem to ignore completely incorrect & unsupported comments.
Secondly, This is NOT the video that Uri geller had taken down, this was a different video. The video of the compass incident is here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Y7QR314xA and all that can bee seen is that Geller touches his hair, and touches his thumb, therefore to state what he actually does to seem like it's a fact, is completely wrong. There is no factual evidence that he stuck a magnet to his thumb.
I would advise that we keep it neutral, and state that he can be seen to touch his hair, and then his thumb, which brought accusations of trickery, as these are the only known facts.
Wikipedia articles are supposed to be edited from a neutral point of view, this article has been completely riddled with opinion & unsupported comments which have lead to it not at all being so.
Moondial (talk) 00:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Nunh-huh, Wikipedia is not a place for your to express your opinions, and the Uri Geller article is just completely riddled with opinion, and appears to be watched very carefully by editors who ignore incorrect (ie dates 10 years out, and his Birth name incorrect) information that makes the article not only incorrect, but also to appear slanted to one viewpoint. Moondial (talk) 01:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way Nunh-huh, I think it's quite inappropriate that you copied your comment from your talk page, and changed it - I was the one who said to you "Wikipedia is not a place for you to express your opinions" - and you have changed your message to try to make out that it was the other way around. Moondial (talk) 01:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
In reply to your comment on your talk page - firstly, lets talk about it here - as you say yourself on your talk page...
Secondly, as I replied on your talk page - How can you say that my edit "contradicts reliable sources" when the source that was there, did not even contain the video?
The video, which I have cited, shows that he touches his hair, and his thumb - therefore this is all that we can say in the article, saying that he does, or does not stick a magnet to his thumb, is subjective.
Watch the video, and be very honest - is it true that Uri Geller is "Clearly seen" to put a magnet on his thumb? It is not - the video only shows that he touches his hair, and his thumb - that is all that can be clearly seen, therefor to say that he can be clearly seen sticking a magnet to his thumb, or adding a thumb tip, is wrong, and is not NPOV. To remain neutral, we can only say that he can be seen to touch his hair, and his thumb, and that he has been accused of adding a magnet to his thumb, it cannot be stated as if it is a fact.
Moondial (talk) 01:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Also I feel strongly that Randi is a "questionable source," as he publishes unfounded, non-factual information.
Wikipedia states:
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves.
Firstly, Randi's views rely heavily on rumors and personal opinion. He does not cite sources, even when he makes allegations. This is something that lead to him being found guilty of defaming, in a court of law in the US. (see the James Randi Wikipedia page).
Secondly, Randi DOES have a poor reputation for fact-checking & editorial oversight.
For example, one of the sources that was previously being cited with ref Uri Gellers birth name - in which he published the information about Uri Geller's birth name, saying that someone told him. He did not have any evidence, and he did not cite anything other than a conversation he had with a friend. (http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-07/072707bashing.html under "hot news")
Other examples, reference 72, "Geller on the Ropes" he has self published completely un-supported and factually incorrect information. The case between explorologist Ltd & Sapient, was about a different video! This case was about a video filmed over 20 years ago, which featured Uri Geller's Dr, Dr Hughes. Explorologist ltd owned the copyright to this video, and sued Sapient for publishing this without consent. See : http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2007cv01848/228702/ Neither Uri Geller or his company own the copyright to the clip including the copyright, this belongs to the TV company, so if anyone was trying to get the compass clip removed it would have to be the TV company. Moondial (talk) 20:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, and has anyone bothered to check that the source used to back up this allegation, is correct? Obviously not, because it only took me a few minutes of digging to find that the case that was been talked about, was nothing at all to do with the compass clip!
He did not claim copyright or issue take down notices for anything that was not his copyright.
The only take down that is sourced - is the case between explorologist ltd & Sapient. As you will see if you care to follow the link (http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2007cv01848/228702/) this was concerning a video which included Uri Geller's Doctor, Dr. Hughes, which was filmed many years ago - and the copyright to this film WAS owned by explorologist ltd, and this is why the case was won by Eplorologist ltd, and the video was taken down.
EXPLOROLOGIST LIMITED v. SAPIENT
Plaintiff Explorologist Ltd. alleged that Defendant Brian Sapient a/k/a Brian J. Cutler d/b/a Rational Response Squad for infringing British copyright law. Defendant allegedly uploaded to YouTube a sequence of images entitled "James Randi exposes Uri Geller and Peter Popoff," which included portions of the film "Dr Hughes."
This just another example of what is really fustrating me with this article. It appears that as long as it promotes the skeptical viewpoint, then editors do not spend any time to check the material.
The clip with the magnet has now had 1.5 million views, has not been removed, and I cannot find any evidence that anyone has ever tried to have it removed, other than the text at the beginning of the video which makes this claim. Moondial (talk) 20:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
How many times do I need to give you the reference?? See ref 72 :
http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2007cv01848/228702/
The associated press article which has been posted on the USA today blog, is incorrect, and this source proves that.
Moondial (talk) 00:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Nunh-huh, please stop editing my changes without properly explaining your reasons for doing so. Part of your explanation appears to talk about something I had not actually edited, which I found strange - and then you stated that my source does not say what I say it does?
Source 72 : http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2007cv01848/228702/
This source clearly states that the legal case was with reference to a clip owned by explorologist ltd which includes the Dr Hughes footage.
EXPLOROLOGIST LIMITED v. SAPIENT Plaintiff Explorologist Ltd. alleged that Defendant Brian Sapient a/k/a Brian J. Cutler d/b/a Rational Response Squad for infringing British copyright law. Defendant allegedly uploaded to YouTube a sequence of images entitled "James Randi exposes Uri Geller and Peter Popoff," which included portions of the film "Dr Hughes."
Can you please explain to me how this source does not clearly say what I am saying it does?
The fact is, the clip that Uri Geller took legal action to have removed due to copyright claims, was video footage which his company owns copyright to - and was nothing to do with the compass clip. The compass clip is not mentioned in the legal paperwork.
Moondial (talk) 00:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Personal interpretation?
Please do explain.....
once again, the legal paperwork on the link given says :
XPLOROLOGIST LIMITED v. SAPIENT Plaintiff Explorologist Ltd. alleged that Defendant Brian Sapient a/k/a Brian J. Cutler d/b/a Rational Response Squad for infringing British copyright law. Defendant allegedly uploaded to YouTube a sequence of images entitled "James Randi exposes Uri Geller and Peter Popoff," which included portions of the film "Dr Hughes."
How does this include any personal interpretation?
It clearly states that the clip that the legal action was taken due to copyright claims on the film "Dr Hughes"
And with ref to changing the article - I have edited factually incorrect information, and I have cited a reliable source. Moondial (talk) 01:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
You doubt it? What has doubt got to do with it? Check my source, regardless of your doubts, opinions & otherwise, the source clearly shows what the case was about, which proves incorrect the claims that it was about the compass clip.
Regards to the "many lawsuits," regardless of how many there were, the fact is that the article stated that the case was about the compass clip - and it was not, it was about the Dr Hughes video. The source I stated clearly shows that.
If you would like more evidence still – see the legal documents: http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2007cv01848/228702/1/
Yes - YouTube did suspend the YouTube account for a period of 2 weeks, meaning that ALL of the video's posted, were unavailable for this time, but this was the decision of YouTube. The fact remains that the action by explorologist Ltd, Uri Geller's company, was in relation to the Dr Hughes clip, and this is on the Justia website in black & white. This is also stated on the legal documentation for the Sapient / EFF vs. Uri Geller case,
Also - contrary to your comment that you made while undoing my edit - in which you implied that that EFF successfully sued & therefore YouTube did reverse their decision. No - you are wrong once again, and I'm not sure why to be honest, as the evidence is very easy to find - the legal documentation is freely available, even on the EFF website.
The facts are as follows.
Uri Geller’s company Explorologist, took action against Sapient:
EXPLOROLOGIST LIMITED v. SAPIENT, May 7 2007, Pennsylvania Eastern District Court.
"Plaintiff Explorologist Ltd. alleged that Defendant Brian Sapient a/k/a Brian J. Cutler d/b/a Rational Response Squad for infringing British copyright law. Defendant allegedly uploaded to YouTube a sequence of images entitled "James Randi exposes Uri Geller and Peter Popoff," which included portions of the film 'Dr Hughes'."
This case was eventually settled out of court. On the EFF website it is stated: "Explorologist and Sapient have settled their dispute. As part of the settlement, Explorologist has agreed to license the disputed footage under a non-commercial Creative Commons license, preempting future legal battles over the fair use of the material. A monetary settlement was also reached as part of the agreement."
On May 8 2007, the day after Explorologist issued proceedings against Sapient - EFF & Sapient launched legal action against Geller, see http://w2.eff.org/legal/cases/sapient_v_geller/.
On February 4th, 2008, Chief Judge Vaughn R. Walker, of the US District Court for the Northern District of California, dismissed this case. Legal papers: http://www.uri-geller.com/pdf/ruling.pdf
With ref your remarks: ‘As for Randi being a questionable source; I doubt it’
Once again – what has doubt got to do with it? On what are you basing this doubt? Do your research, from a NPOV, and you will see that without a doubt James Randi IS a questionable source under Wikipedia’s definition of an unreliable source.
Individuals & organizations should be more careful about taking Randi’s comments with anything other than a pinch of salt.
It seems that Discover magazine will certainly be more careful about what sources they rely on in future. See http://discover.coverleaf.com/discovermagazine/200905/?pg=6#pg6 & http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0409/uri-geller-print.php. (paragraph 18)
In reply to your comment ‘but, removing his commentary might be appropriate if all material prepared by Geller, whether or not SPS, is considered unreliable’ :
This article is the Uri Geller article – NOT the James Randi article. It should not be a case of “OK, we’ll consider Randi’s material unreliable as long as we also consider Geller’s material unreliable. The two are separate issues.
This is not the “James Randi” article, and nor is it the “James Randi Vs. Uri Geller” article, it is “supposed” to be an article about Uri Geller. So, whether or not James Randi material is reliable – has no bearing on whether or not Uri Geller’s material is reliable.
Currently, looking through the reference list on the Uri Geller article – it’s Randi, Randi, Randi – I can see very little of Uri Geller’s own material being used as reference, most is Randi’s – which is the reason the article is so one sided – and the reason that there is SO much incorrect information. For example, at one point the article stated that Uri had a different birth name, and this information cited Randi’s website – in which Randi stated that a friend had told him.
Conversely – look at the James Randi Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi – look through the references, and what do you see? Randi, Randi, Randi….. How many times does Uri Geller show on the James Randi reference page – Zero.
Look at how one sided in Randi’s favor, the James Randi article is – despite the fact that Randi has had a very controversial history, you would hardly know this from reading the article. It’s not a balanced article. There are a number of events from Randi’s life & career that are not discussed, and it’s is quite obviously being heavily edited by those with a skeptical point of view.
Now look again at the Uri Geller article, and tell me honestly that you cannot see that this article is also obviously being edited by those with a skeptical point of view? It is not balanced, it is NOT neutral. Where it is obvious that there are two trains of thought, and no definite right or wrong – the article is being edited heavily in favor of the skeptical point of view.
It is becoming more & more apparent to me that there are a number of editors watching this article, who have no intention whatsoever of allowing this article to be made more neutral & balanced – even when faced with overwhelming evidence in black & white, it is just being ignored – while the opposite of this is true with negative edits.
Over quite a period of time, I have been aware of this very strange phenomenon – and I have been monitoring this article & the activity of it’s editors. What I have recorded, is that negative, skeptical edits stay – regardless of how in factual & poorly supported they are, and any edits that are not negative or from a skeptical point of view, do not stay – regardless of how well supported they are.
To quote Wikipedia:
The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor discourages its subject, nor does it endorse or oppose specific viewpoints. Also, it doesn't represent a lack of viewpoint, but is rather a specific, editorially neutral, point of view — it is not aimed at the absence or elimination of viewpoints. Wikipedia is filled with reliably sourced non-neutral statements, so the elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy solely on the grounds that it is "POV". Article content should clearly describe, represent, and characterize disputes within topics, but should not endorse any particular point of view. Instead, articles should provide background on who believes what, and why, and on which points of view are more popular. Detailed articles will often contain evaluations of each viewpoint, but these, too, must studiously refrain from taking sides.
I’ll repeat that last bit – “studiously refrain from taking sides.”
Are the editors watching this page, studiously refraining from taking sides?
Moondial (talk) 11:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
You are the one making all the mistakes. You may want to go ahead & check them documents before you comment. This is yet another example of the fact that you're just working from opinion & hearsay - you're not even checking out the sources.
Having said that, I find it interesting that you appear to have looked in to certain sources - but it's the ones which contain the undisputable evidence, that you just so happen to have not got around to looking at.
Regardless of how you're twisting it - the case of Sapient & EFF Vs Geller, was dismissed. Regardless of the reason for it being dismissed - it was dismissed. Who said anything about it being "successful" ? I simply stated the facts, that the case was dismissed.
The timing, is extremely clear - it couldn't be much clearer. Check the documentation on Justia - or are you insinuating that these have been falsified?
Now that you clearly cannot give reasonable argument - you're coming out with complete & utter unsupported nonsense, that I am assuming you have just made up? And it's quite clear this is the case, or you would have expanded upon it rather than just making a throw away comment like that.
Would you care to back up your weasel word claims "Geller is at least strongly suspected of falsifying documents," strongly suspected by whom? Strongly suspected by yourself, since you've just come up with the idea, due to lack of anything factual? Moondial (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
You implied in your edit notes, when undoing my edit, "EFF _did_ sue, and Youtube reversed their decision" and in the article, it states : On 8 May 2007, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) sued Geller on behalf of Brian Sapient for making false claims to force YouTube to remove a video. YouTube eventually reversed their decision to remove the video.
This implies that it was the EFF case that was responsible for the video being restored, when in fact the EFF case was dismissed - and Youtube did not "reverse their decision" Geller & Sapient came to an licensing agreement, and it was this agreement which saw the video in question back on Youtube, and his YouTube account made live again.
But - you're focusing on this unimportant part of the argument to smoke-screen the main point - which is that it's talking about the wrong video! This discussion is about the compass clip, and the case between sapient & explorologist, which is being cited - is NOT about the compass clip.
The video in question, was 'a sequence of images entitled "James Randi exposes Uri Geller and Peter Popoff," which included portions of the film "Dr Hughes."'
Are you trying to tell me that I have not given sufficient proof in this discussion, that this case is not about the compass clip?
>>You still have no argument for removal of the material
Removal of what material?
>>The video was critical of Geller?
Which video?
I am not trying to remove the material about the compass clip - what I want to remove, is the incorrect information - that I have given plenty of evidence to prove incorrect - that says that the compass clip was the video in question with the take down & court cases. I have plenty of argument to remove this.
The article implies that Geller tried to have the compass clip removed, and goes on to discuss the legal cases between himself & Brian Sapient, however as I have proven - these cases were not about the compass clip, they were about the video which includes footage of Dr Hughes.
Therefore the current material which states that Uri Geller tried to have the compass clip removed - is incorrect. In fact, the compass clip was placed on YouTube over 2 years ago - by "thefriendlyskeptic" and has not been removed, this video has had over 1.5 million views in this time, and has remained at the top of YouTube search for "Uri Geller" for quite some time.
It's plain & simple, the takedown notice & court cases were NOT about this clip, the complaint made was about the clip including Geller's doctor, Dr Hughes.
Therefore, any comments about Geller having tried to remove the video, or about legal cases surrounding this - should be deleted, OR a new section should be created about the video that Geller DID actually take action to remove.
By the way - you seem to have gone very quite now about your insinuations that Geller is suspected of falsifying documentation. "Geller is at least strongly suspected of falsifying documents."
Are you going to expand upon this for those of us who would like to know more - or do I take your lack of response on this, to mean that you're admitting that you did actually just make this up, and that you cannot expand upon it for that reason? Moondial (talk) 08:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
We shouldn't be making statements about what we think we know, should we? We should be writing about what we can back up with reliable source - and there is NO reliable source to show that Uri Geller tried to have the specific video of the compass clip, removed. The source that is currently cited, is talking about a different clip.
>>:#Geller (not Explorologist) has made claims against YouTube, in addition to his many libel suits against those calling him a "trickster" or other similar terms. I don't know whether those claims are copyright or libel.
All there is to back up this claim, is wooly messages at the beginning of youtube clips & so on, and other hearsay comments on blogs. I have not been able to find anything to prove that Uri Geller has made any claims against Youtube - other than the ones about the Dr Hughes clips that escalated to the legal cases.
Besides – none of this relates to the discussion we’re having.
Regardless of what your opinions are, or what you’ve heard on the grapevine about what Uri Geller has tried to have removed from youtube – this discussion, is about whether or not the sentences about the compass clip in the article are factual.
To confirm, below are the sentences that I am disputing, and my reasons: “Geller unsuccessfully attempted have the clips removed from YouTube, issuing a DMCA takedown request against the uploader.[53]”
This is stating that Uri Geller issued a DMCA takedown request to sapient, in relation to the compass clip.
In the cited source – which is an associated press article posted on the USA today blog –-the legal case which is discussed, is not in relation to the compass clip. As I have shown in previous sources, the legal case which this article discusses, was a complaint from explorologist ltd, about the clip which included the footage of Dr Hughes.
There is no evidence that there was actually a takedown notice issued in relation to the compass clip.
“In March 2007, videos clearly showing Geller cheating were removed from YouTube due to copyright claims by Explorologist Limited.[72] Explorologist Limited is operated by Geller who owns 75 percent of the company and his long time manager/brother-in-law Shimshon [Shipi] Shtrang who owns 25 percent.[72] James Randi noted that Geller did not own the copyright to the clips, which includes Geller's appearance on The Tonight Show.[72]”
To state “videos clearly showing Geller cheating” is POV, and both sides of the argument should be stated. I have previously added sources which share a contrary point of view – but these have been deleted. For example : http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0409/uri-geller-print.php paragraph 8.
There is no source to back up that the compass clip was removed – nor that it was due to copyright claims. Once again, the video that was removed due to the copyright claims was a different video – and the legal cases that escalated from this claim, clearly state which video it was concerning.
With regards your allegations of falsifying documents, I'm confused what are you saying? You say he has falsified documents - then you say that he has edited videos - which is hardly document falsification.... and then you go on to suggest that he has possibly falsified documents to do with his connection to Sigmund Freud?
If you're not actually just making this up - then come on, tell. What documents? What exactly do you suspect him of falsifying?
My guess is - that you have absolutely no idea, because you're just making it up as you go along...
Moondial (talk) 16:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Do I take your lack of response, as a sign that we have reached consensus on this matter? And, are you going to provide any further explanation of your previous comments about document falsification, or are you now admitting that you actually made this up & have absolutely nothing even remotely truthful to base these malicious comments upon?Moondial (talk) 23:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
So, have we reached consensus that this section is to be removed? By the way - I'm not sure what you mean ref defamation, I did not say that the wrong information defamed him, I said that it was incorrect & un-sourced - which you have argued until blue in the face, until now.
The only defamation occurring - was you making up stories about Uri Geller having been involved in document falsification, which you appear to have forgotten about now - I'm assuming this is because you're embarrassed that you stooped as low as making up stories when you ran out of valid argument?Moondial (talk) 19:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
No reply? Have we reached consensus?Moondial (talk) 10:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
You are once again taking sides Arthur. There are very clearly two sides to this argument, and to say "the video clearly shows" that Geller attaches a magnet, or a thumbtip, is just completely & utterly POV, as the video shows absolutely nothing clearly, other than the fact he touches his thumb. We must discuss this neutrally, yes the video shows that he touches his thumb, but what he actually does in the clip is a subjective matter, and you are taking one side of the argument. I know which point of view you take Arthur, you've made this quite clear in the past - but lets have some common sense here please, this is so obviously a 2 sided debate, we need to state both sides of the argument neutrally - NOT state that one side of the debate is fact.
I personally do not agree that USA today IS RS. You have admitted yourself that they have published incorrect information in the past about this same video, and this is NOT a USA today article, it's an AP article posted on the USA today Blog. They didn't just get it wrong that it wasn't this video that was taken down, the whole article is full of errors, and once again - it is not written by a USA today author, it's a blog post submitted by a member of the associated press. The fact that they're posting such badly sourced incorrect articles, is a strong reason to argue that it is an unreliable source.Moondial (talk) 00:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I realize this isn't independent third-party, but since there were so many professors present, perhaps one of them published these results.
I was allowed into a demonstration at UCB given by Gellar, where 75 people were present, mostly university professors. They had with them various measuring devices, whose readings Gellar intended to influence. He failed to make a change in any of them, claiming that he couldn't work in the hostile atmosphere. After the demonstration, I went with a group of about 10 people to talk with him personally. At this point, he said that there was a more receptive attitude. He demonstrated how to bend someone's keys, and how to bend someone's wedding ring. Later, I was shown how to duplicate these tricks: select keys that are already bent, and a ring that has been worn for a considerable time. The owner naturally remembers these objects in their original form: straight keys, and a perfectly circular ring. In use these often become distorted. It just remained for Gellar to "find" a suitable set of keys and a wedding ring from an older person. Piano non troppo (talk) 07:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Some editors - particularly Nunh-huh - seem intent on adding unsupported POV comments to the intro.
My version of this section of the intro is:
Some consider Geller's work to demonstrate paranormal abilities, while others describe his performances as easily replicated magic tricks.
This is completely neutral. Nunh-huh repeatedly edits to take the skeptical side of the argument. Not only this - but he has now reverted to exactly copying my edit summary when undoing, without adding his own explanation, which I find to be extremely childish.
Nunh-huh, if you would like to discuss this, then lets do so here.
Moondial (talk) 17:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I understand the principle of NPOV - however you obviously do not. It is only your point of view that one side of the argument is heavier or more well supported than the other. You have cited zero references to support your opinon. The fact is that there are plenty of available sources on both sides of the argument, it's your opinion that more experts believe that what he does, is easily replicated magic tricks - hence it is POV. Moondial (talk) 18:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Your argument makes no sense. The article does not state which kind of expert is being referred to, it does not state that more experts in magic, believe that what he does is magic tricks, nor does it relate to psychic phenomena, so your opinion about whether not "it is clear" that psychic phenomena exists, is also completely irrelevant. If the comment about experts cannot be clarified or supported, then it should be changed to what it was previously, which was that some people believe what he does to be a display of some kind of paranormal ability, while others believe it to be magic tricks. I did not add the line about experts.Moondial (talk) 23:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
OK. First of all, can we please get some clarity on what you mean by "experts?" Are you referring to experts in a particular field? From your previous comments it appears that what you mean, is experts in magic tricks. If this is the case, then it would need to say "Magicians" and not "Experts" , as this is too vague. "Experts" could refer to anyone who is an expert in any field - therefore this is unverifiable.
Also, in reply to your comment that ALL experts agree that he does tricks - you're implying that no experts believe that what he does is anything but magic tricks - and this is wrong.
Based on not knowing which kind of "experts" you're referring to, I will note here, just SOME comments from expert scientists, and expert magicians, who have stated that they do believe that there is more to Uri Geller’s abilities than just tricks.
Magicians:
David Copperfield:
You know, I like Uri Geller. He is a good guy. I think he made many things with his abilities. I think some of the things he shows are illusion. But I cannot claim for sure, that this applies to everything. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCWDE6aDe0o&feature=related)
David Blain:
Uri bent a spoon for me, the first time he did it, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned, completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I've never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognize that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person.
REV. Mark Townsend:
Uri Geller's inspiration has been immense throughout this span of years, but back at the beginning of my journey I never thought I'd one day have the privilege of meeting him - let alone performing my own 'magic' in his own home on a radio show! The man is a major influence and true mentor. He is a man of mystery who has maintained the power of his persona throughout his career, even after some harsh criticsim from those within my own 'stage magic' world. His performances continue to lead people into the long lost world of enchantment and wonder - and I say we need MORE of that not less. And, let me say this, as one who does performs mentalism and mind magic (and therefore knows the secrets) I was shocked, amazed and delighted by the genuine mysteries I encountered in his presence.
Drew McAdam:
I have seen Uri do things that, even as a mentalist and amateur conjuror of some 30 years, I cannot explain. I know how mind-magicians obtain the effects they do... I know the illusionist's mechanics of producing so-called psychic effects that look incredibly convincing to the layman. However, I can categorically say that Uri Geller uses none of these methods. Quite simply, the man is a phenomenon.
Lee Earle:
Geller has shown us that the limits of our understanding are not the limits of all there is to understand.
Barrie Richardson:
Some of the self-called “greatest magicians” should desperately try to become Uri’s pupils. From him they could learn how to produce effect, how to accomplish miracles! One can talk and think differently about Uri Geller. But one can’t bypass one fact: The “boy” has ideas – ideas that once changed many people’s, many scientists’ and even some conjurors’ way of thinking. And through his ideas he influenced the conjurors’-tricks scene in many a way. (Uri und die Zeitmaschine / Uri and the time-machine, Magische Welt, Vol. 40, Nr. 3, September 1991. 243-244)
Clifford Davis:
Any worthwhile magician could perform similar feats, but it would be trickery. Uri must be genuine...Anyone performing feats like this under such conditions cannot be a fake. Uri has stood up to thirteen laboratory tests in the United States. It shows that in rare cases the power of the mind can move or even bend inanimate objects. (Daily Mirror 1974)
David Ben:
When I think of Uri Geller and his spoon-bending today, I’m willing to suspend my disbelief. Because I still believe in the mysterious, that it’s possible that these things may happen. (Interviewed on Heroes of Magic Channel Four television. December 2000 )
Scientists:
Dr Edgar D. Mitchell S.C.D. Apollo 14 Astronaut.6th man to walk on the moon:
I was in Scientific laboratories at Stanford Research Institute investigating a rather amazing individual Uri Geller. Uri's ability to perform amazing feats of mental wizardry is known the world over. We in Science are just now catching up and understanding what you can do with exercise and proper practice. Uri is Not a magician. He is using capabilities that we all have and can develop with exercise and practice.
After the Geller work, I was asked to brief the director of the CIA, Ambassador George Bush (Later to become President of the United States), on our activities and the results. In later years during the Brezhnev period, I met with several Russian scientists who not only had documented results similar to ours, but were actively using "psychic" techniques against the U.S. and its allies.
Professor Gerald Schroeder:
Uri appears to have concentrated energy. What makes me accept Geller at face value is that unlike a magician, he does not have a bag of tricks. He bends spoons. The one he bent with me peering over his shoulder continued to bend even after he placed it on the ground and stepped away. The Talmud claims there are two types of "magic." One is the "catching of the eye," an optical illusion. The other is the real thing, a mustering of the forces of nature. With Uri, I opt for the latter, though he claims he has no idea how these are mustered.
Dr Wilbur Franklin. Physics Department, Kent State University - U.S.A.:
The evidence based on metallurgical analysis of fractured surfaces (produced by Geller) indicates that a paranormal influence must have been operative in the formation of the fractures.
Dr Friedbert Karger. Max Planck Institute for Plasma Physics, Munich, Germany:
Based on preliminary investigations of Uri, I cannot establish fraud. The powers of this man are a phenomenon which theoretical physics cannot yet explain.
Dr Edward W Bastin:
Geller asked me to put my hand over a spoon supplied by me, we could all see the spoon clearly. Geller then put his own hand over mine and began concentrating. It was just as he stopped that we all saw the handle of the spoon begin to distort.
For more, see http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Skeptical_Arguments/Page18.htm
Moondial (talk) 22:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm about 1/3-way (over 100 pages) through reading Geller's 1975 autobiography, and I also read an article about him from a Time book called Mind Over Matter. I'm concerned that this short Wikipedia article may be a little biased, specifically because it doesn't include a lot of info I've read about Geller, especially from the early period of Geller's career as a psychic.
I long dismissed Geller as pretty patently a fraud (although in the mid-'70s, when Geller achieved his fame, I wasn't even born yet) just because the mainstream media seemed to portray him so uniformly in that manner. For most of my life, I was never much more interested in paranormal stuff than your average person, so I never bothered to look into it. However, I recently have begun reading some books on psychic phenomena by supporters who take a more science-based point of view to it-- these are books that are written by professional scientists and psychologists and the like, and don't start out from the very first page of the introduction with a lot of stuff about angels, near-death-experiences, UFOs, and a lot of mystical or pseudo-Christian fluff. Their books avoid fluff, and are instead concerned mostly with the results of university and think-tank funded lab experiments, statistical analysis, the experimental methodology, and theories to explain how psychic phenomena may operate. In the course of getting inot this reading, I was surprised to discover that some scientists who have had long careers doing this research in the most scientific, rigorous kind of way that probably exists in the world today had actually done tests with Geller back in the '70s. I was surprised not only that they mentioned him in their books (although typically with only a single sentence), but that some of these references made no mention of the efforts or success of any skeptics to debunk Geller.
I don't believe in psychic powers, but I find the debate, and the fact that so there are in fact so many scientists investigating this, interesting. After coming across a few of the more positive mentions of Geller in these books by the more-sane-sounding of the believers in psychic phenomena, I decided to check out more info on Geller, including his autobiography. The book, right from the beginning, includes a few of Geller's accounts of his performing successfully on radio and television shows in Europe in the mid-'70s. These anecdotes usually end with the local newspapers all giving him front-page coverage the day after his performance, because at that time, supposedly a lot of weird phenomena would occur in the homes of listeners and viewers of the shows he was on when he would appeal to them to concentrate with him. These people allegedly called into the shows to report what happened, and supposedly it became a big sensation. Besides Geller's book, I've also seen these stories recounted in another book that was published by the editors of Time magazine. If the story is true that all this happened, that makes the Geller story a lot more interesting, and it would be pretty easy to verify, because the newspaper stories described in Geller's book would be out there on electronic archive and microfilm collections. However, this Wikipedia article doesn't include the information about those performances and newspaper coverage-- mostly it's just about Geller acting goofy and screwing up in the 1990s and 2000s.
From what I've read so far, it seems that Geller's career can be broadly divided up into two periods: In the first period, he was repeatedly (over a period of years) being requested (and paid) to perform on radio and TV shows (sometimes very popular ones) all over the world, as well as performing in labs supervised by teams of scientists working with strict controls, and he performed often to the satisfaction of these scientists and TV/radio audiences. He also defied skeptics and critics. And he wrote an autobiography that seems humble and down-to-earth enough, and seems like basically what a normal, non-flaky person would write if he just happened to be able to do psychic feats and wanted to write a book about it. The second period of his career seems to be a marked contrast: during that period (the period reported detailedly in this wikipedia article), instead of astounding and amazing all sorts of people again and again, impressing even the most sophisticated of observers, except for a handful of publications who seemed not to like him, and magicians who (according to Geller) refused to try to show how he could have gotten away with doing his stunts under lab conditions, Geller is making a total fool of himself, failing not just obviously but in ridiculous, dorky ways, vouching for Michael Jackson, and so on. While he used to be someone that celebrities like Muhammad Ali and Jimmy Carter wanted to meet and talk to, he's become someone one may even want to feel a little sorry for. If more of the info about Geller's early career were included (that is, if the description I give of it, based on Geller's autobiography and one or two other sources is correct), than it seems the marked contrast between his early career and his later career would show very clearly in this article, and would seem in many ways to be the main story, or one of the main stories, of his life. I don't claim that it would prove that psychic powers are real or anything like that, but it would be a very interesting insight into this person. For instance, maybe it would point to some very big influence in Geller's life that has resulted in him making a very different impression on the world beginning at a certain point. 173.3.113.155 (talk) 12:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)Swan
Moondial, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's core policy on verifiability. It is not our job to prove or disprove information contained in a reliable source. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. You have repeatedly attempted to justify removing an indisputably reliable source by suggesting that you have disproven the information. Your justification for removing sourced material is out of the bounds of Wikipedia's editorial policies. — e. ripley\talk 00:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Please see discussion above. This has been part of an ongoing discussion, in which it has been agreed that the USA today article is incorrect, and for this reason I do not beleive USA today to be RS. It is a badly sourced associated press article which has been posted on the USA today blog.
You may want to familiarise yourself with Wikipedia's policy on NPOV. This argument is very obviously a 2 sided one, common sense tells us that with a video like this, interpretation is completely down to the opinion of the viewer, as it shows NOTHING clearly, other than the fact that he touches his thumb, therefore it is our job to neutrally describe both sides of an obviously 2 sided debate, not to take one side as fact, especially not when the source is an associated press article posted on a blog, that we have already agreed is incorrect. Moondial (talk) 00:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I've already spent quite some time arguing about this, I'm not prepared to now have the same argument with you. Moondial (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of who the editor is, American Chronicle IS a reliable source. Your concern appears to be with the article, and the author of the article, not with the reliability of the source. No matter what your opinion is on this author, what matters is whether or not the source is reliable - and I cannot see any reason that AC can be seen as anything other than RS. Moondial (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
American Chronicle shows the source of the article, and it's not UFO today. The original source of the article, is the authors own website, BLACKRAISER.COM Moondial (talk) 09:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
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No, I mean the "Ultio, LLC" link at the bottom of each page which gives the info that E.Riplay claimed was not available. Also, the "help" link in the navigation provides this info.
It really doesn't matter now, consensus is reached, I believe.Moondial (talk) 09:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it is quite normal for an article to be picked up by other publications - but just because UFO digest are re-publishing these article, doesn't change the fact that American Chronicle is RS. Moondial (talk) 20:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, no, I am not the Author Peter Fotis Kapnistos, and I'm surprised Arthur, that as a mathematician you can't work out that this can’t be me – seeing as the article is submitted to American Chronicle in Feb of this year, and I did not begin editing this article until August.
With regards to the article saying that Randi lied, I've just read it & I'm not sure what you mean, are you referring to : "Not long ago, "Discover" magazine published a short interview with James Randi in which Uri Geller was pointlessly mocked before Israel´s Knesset, referring to derogatory statements that were false. In its most recent issue, "Discover" printed a formal apology to Geller (although you might need a magnifying glass to see it)." ?
Anyway, previously - when discussing the USA today article, in which I stated that the article was full of holes & that the author was unknown - I was repetedly told that this doesn't matter, that what matters is whether the source of the material is reliable.
Therefore - regardless of what this article says about Randi that you may not like (please do try to remember that this article is NOT about James Randi, it's about Uri Geller!) what matters is whether ot not American Chronicle is a reliable source, and I cannot see why not - it has been used as source in other Wikipedia articles, for example Warren G. Harding. Moondial (talk) 00:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Just for the record, the author of the article, Peter Fotis Kapnistos, who you insinuated was myself, is Fkapnist I have looked through the discussion page and he has participated in the discussion here a few times. Moondial (talk) 09:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
In reply to your request for more evidence to be provided that the author is reliable:
Peter Fotis Kapnistos is an American journalist, editor, and publisher now residing in the Eastern Mediterranean islands. After a career in fashion and advertising photography, Peter turned to photojournalism. He was editor for the "Athens News," Greece's oldest English-language daily newspaper. In cooperation with the Associated Press and Apple computers, he later oversaw the production of "Greece Today," one of the first direct online English-language desktop-published tabloids in the Near East.
Peter helped to introduce public access to the Internet in the eastern Aegean islands by establishing a number of Internet Cafes there. He currently writes code for various websites and lives in the Patmos group of islands.
From : http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3800
Moondial (talk) 01:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
This part of the article is still heavily biased. And any edits I make are being reverted despite the fact that I have cited a reliable source.
We cannot state "Geller was clearly caught cheating" or "caught putting a magnet on his thumb" as this is clearly taking one side of the debate.
The American Chronicles article is a very well documented article with still frames to back up each point - the USA today article is purely the unsupported spouting of an unknown author, in an associated press article which has been posted on the USA today blog.
I propose that we keep NPOV, by showing both view points, and leaving in both sources - so the viewr can make up their own mind. It is not up to us as editors to take sides, and it's certainly not up to us to completely ignore one side of the debate and only discuss the side that we happen to agree with due to our own beliefs.Moondial (talk) 20:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I would also like to bring to your attention previous discussions on this page about this same matter nearly a year ago. See “NPOV Issue” above.Moondial (talk) 20:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Arthur Rubin has requested that we verify the credibility of Jonathan Margolis.
Margolis is a very experienced, award winning journalist and author, who writes for many UK newspapers including The Guardian, the Financial Times magazine, The Mail on Sunday, Time Magazine and the Daily Mirror.
He is also a very successful author of biographies, including:
The Big Yin: Life and Times of Billy Connolly
Bernard Manning: A Biography
Cleese Encounters (John Cleese)
Uri Geller: Magician or Mystic?
Freddie Star Ate My Hamster
Lenny Henry
Michael Palin
http://www.incword.com/the_writers.php?wid=78333b7c-c273-102a-8694-ece8c2162578:
http://www.londonspeakerbureau.co.uk/Jonathan_Margolis.aspx:
Arthur - your comment was Verify credibility of _Martgolis_; I think it's clearly incredible (i.e., not reliable), but others may differ
With all due respect, I can't quite understand why you thought it was clearly incredible? Just putting his name into Google would have alerted you to the fact that this guy is one of the most prominent biography writers in the UK, and one of the most saught after feature writers. Moondial (talk) 22:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Pulling back over here for readability's sake. Randi is a fine source for citing information about Randi's opinions about people who make certain paranormal claims. I haven't proposed using Randi as a source for any facts. Of course as always we must be careful of undue weight, as with anything else. Whether he is mentioned too much or not, I take no position as I haven't examined it closely enough although I do think the article needs serious work, generally speaking. You'll note that I also take no position about the appropriateness of using Margolis as a source for a fact about Geller's life. That leaves us at a standstill, one for, one against, one abstain. That is why it would be useful to put the question about Margolis to the broader community on the noticeboard as I suggested. That's all I have to say on this, I am not here to re-argue all your grudges about this article in this space. Let's resolve this question first, then move on to others. — e. ripley\talk 22:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)