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I've removed reference to Hyper-Calvinism. It's true that Fred Phelps was accused of Hyper-Calvinism, but this, as the reference makes clear if you follow it, was by a small-fry pastor during a fairly high-blown debate. Just because there is an internet reference to a name-calling does not warrant an inclusion of that name-calling in a Wiki introduction of a living person. For all I know Fred Phelps and his church is hyper-hyper-anything-you-want, but a proper reference is required to prove it. I've also changed, in the next paragraph, "supporters of gay rights" to "supporters of gay people": gay rights seems a far too loaded term for this context. (Apologies if this note has appeared twice. Problems with dial-up.) MacMurrough 01:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm writing from Grand Rapids... I had read on their website that they planned to picket at President Ford's funeral both in Grand Rapids and Washington, but haven't heard nor read nor seen anything about it... Has anybody seen anything other than on their website?216.120.133.154 18:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a mess, a chaotic dump of phelps' statements against USA and a review of all their activities with all details. I suggest a complete rewrite - in ideal the article would equally shed light on the Churches opinion on Homosexuality, other religions, war and politics. The info on the colour of Phelps van or the interview of Libby and Jael may all be interesting, but they lack relevance, it may better be up simply linked.InTeRnAzI 11:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I seem to remember hearing something on 7chan's (now defunct) Invasion board about WBC; something about spamming free UPS boxes in huge quantities to the Church's address... Does anyone remember hearing about this or know if it ever happened? --Kenjoki 02:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The Christian identity movement, CIM, is primarily a white supremisist religion. While Westboro might be accused of being crude and not PC, they are not white supremisists. I personally think this section should be cut out, or differences with CIM, which are many, should be posted.
The United States is the true Israel.[15] I read the citation and I do not see this. It does say "Israel (America) is doomed". What they seem to be saying is that a bible lesson about Israel should be applied to the USA.
"Jews are "filthy" They do not seem to say this. They do seem to claim that Jews were somehow allied with, or helpful to, or tolerant of Homosexuals during the 1930s leading to their persecution. I do not see the term filthy being used.
It should be noted that WBC arguments usually start with opposition to homosexuals and end up with other groups like Canada, the US military or Jews. They do not seem to be fixated with those secondary groups like Jews. The CIM is fixated on Jews, among other groups.
Geo8rge 01:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok it is a Hate Organization if we cant tell the truth we need to delete and protect this article, thank you
Rename this article: Westboro Baptist Church (Topeka KS) Geo8rge 01:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I added a bunch of citations to the list of slogans since there was a request, but unfortunately, the convienant, obvious citation, thesignsofthetimes.net, doesn't list all the slogans they've used (like the three in this image, for instance), which means that I ended up tagging entries individually, very cumbersome. — Laura Scudder ☎ 04:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest listing the quotations by wbc web page so you only have to cite once. Wikiquote might be a better place to put quotation lists. Geo8rge 19:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The name of at least one child is mentioned, and the photograph of a child is shown. Both are unjustifiable BLP. (Whether the names of adult members are not leaders and who have not been charged with crimes is BLP is a harder question.) Please give a reason not to delete or crop the photograph. The caption actually calls attention to the fact that the photograph of a child is included. DGG 04:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I would agree with redacting the image, but it comes from their Web site where they've placed it in a public area. It doesn't actually do Wikipedia any good to edit the image after-the-fact, since it's still visible in its original location, and frankly I think that putting her image on their site does more harm to her than putting it on Wikipedia. -Harmil 21:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The article originally claimed they were Independent Baptist, but now it says primative Baptist. On Phelps personal page it still calls them independent. I've look at several independent Baptist sites and find no mention of WBC. Exactly which, if any, Baptist tradition do they belong to? They seem to be more Calvinist than anything else.--Dudeman5685 01:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
WBC describes themselves in this page, they use all those terms. WBC in their own words. I know of no independent theological examination of WBC. Geo8rge 01:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Disclaimer: I do not claim to be an expert in this matter. I have just had a lot of experience in working with many churches in different capacities, and with churches of many denominations including the Catholic church that I was born and raised under. This is my first post, so i hope I do the topic some justice. The funny thing about the Baptist demonination is that there are many differnt "splinters", if you will. While there are baptist churches who belong to registered groups, such as the SBC (Southern Baptist Council), Some churches decided to become "independent bcptist" where the hierarchy is somewhat flip flopped from what one would expect. For example: In the catholic church, the Pope essentially has the final word on the practices of parishes around the world. Then cardinals, arch bishops, bishops.... etc. One of the differnces in the baptist church is that the local pastor/reverend has the say as to what the church believes. This can also be put to a board or committee of elders. There are many, many, many, differnt variations. However, most Baptist churches avoid the "top down" form of rule in an effort to maintain their autonomy. Another key component is that Baptists believe in Baptism by water. (The majority of Christian and Catholic denominations feel the same way). Baptists, along with the bulk of Cristianity, believe that the Bible is the word of God and that the Bible is the final authority as to how to worship, live, and so on. However, all of these differnt denominations were created by people who had a slightly different interpretation of the Bible. But, i digress. St. John, one of the disciples closeest to Jesus, next to Peter, was called John the Baptist because he would literally baptize people in a river. (The Jordan I believe.) As a matter of fact, he baptized Jesus. So, ther is your first Baptist =P
Is everyone sure this isn't a hoax? Abeg92contribs 18:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty certain that what these people are doing goes beyond "hoax." Lines have been crossed. Explody 07:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Explody
The article is a little hazy on the history of the church and how it came to be set up. As far as I can gather, Phelps was a highly respected lawyer in the 1960s and 1970s, and received an accolade from the NAACP for his civil rights work as recently as the 1980s. Fast forward to 1993, and it seems Phelps is now pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church and his God Hates Fags campaign is in full swing. There's a pretty big gap there. 217.155.20.163 21:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
There really is no source for that info, if you really want to know contact them. There might be some old articles in a microfilm archive somewhere. Legal case histories are probably obtainable tooGeo8rge 14:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
just a little note - the hyperlink to godlovesfags.com is incorrect, with a Q instead of a G and there doesn't appear to be a website godlovesFAQs.com although maybe there should be LOL
please can someone edit this to correct the hyperlink? it is in the "Responses" section.
also, why not add a link to the BBC page about the Louis Theroux show, as it has video clips on it - http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/noise/?id=louis_theroux
cheers!
82.32.207.59 23:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC) have I signed that right?
Theroux already has an extensive wiki page with plenty of info and links to BBC Two. Geo8rge 14:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
In the article it says that Phelps and his church hate swedes because at swedish judge sentenced one of its members. In fact its because Åke Green, a swedish minister was sentenced for "hets mot folkgrupp" (defamation of a minority) after a sermon where he called gays "a tumor on society". The sentence was later changed to not guilty by the swedish supreme court. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.71.123.2 (talk) 12:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
Ah, my bad. I remembered it was something to do with sweden...
And on the subject, I reverted the following addition:
"Thank God for the Tsunami. Thank God that 2000 dead Swedes are fertilising the ground over there. How many of those 2000 do you suppose were fags and dykes? That's the way the Lord deals with His enemies. And the Lord has got some enemies. And Sweeden heads the list. You filthy Swedes. YOU FILTHY SWEDES!!!!"
It wasn't cited, and the ending certainly sounds fake. mattbuck 09:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
No that is real, I've heard the audio before...I'll try and find a reference if possible Aristeaus 08:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I moved some paragraphs around under common headings. I did not delete anything. I hope it made the article easier to readGeo8rge 17:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
WBC is planning on picketing at the funerals of VT victims. Can anyone cover this?--66.142.39.61 13:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
A protest against the Westboro Baptist Church was held in the vicinity of the WBC compound on June 19, 2006. It was organized by Bob Cutler, a resident of Topeka. Biteboy, a Florida band was brought in to play a concert at a neighbor's house, who claims she at first hesitated, as she claims she has been harrassed by the Phelps family for 46 years. The band was able to play through one song, until the Topeka Law Enforcement ordered the band to stop playing. They said the band was in violation of a city ordinance and they had recieved a complaint from the Westboro Baptist Church. Shirly Phelps-Roper later denied such a complaint was made and authories again had confirmed that it did come from the WBC. The protest was then moved to a nearby tavern. During this protest, there was no reports of violence or injuries.
Source: http://cjonline.com/stories/061906/loc_antiphelps.shtml
Regardless of what people think, the church proclaims itself to be baptist. It practices baptist church polity and some theology. Its members have to be baptised as adults in order to be church members. It has a congregational church government style (in theory).
And since the church is famous, it deserves to have a baptist infobox inserted. 95.9% of Baptists will be offended by the church's declaration of being baptist, but them's the brakes.
The article has a link to Independent Baptist and King James Onlyism as well.
The infobox should also give readers of the article the chance to check out what real baptists believe.
--One Salient Oversight 12:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Although I would agree that the infobox should stay, perhaps adding a note saying something to the effect that The westboro church is only considered baptist to its own members would be a good idea. Darknessgp 02:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Delete. I think it's offensive to real Baptists that the Baptist infobox is included on this page. The WBC calling themselves Baptists is not a good enough reason to include it. There's no socialism infobox on the Nazism page. There's no Catholic church infobox on the David Bawden page. There's no "Presidents of the United States" infobox on the The Presidents of the United States of America (band page. Self identification is not enough. Delete the infobox! 129.55.200.20 15:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
KEEP yes they are offensive to real Baptists ,christians in general, or anyone who has any decency but that alone is not enough reason to delete it. Besides i think it's handy so their belief can be compared to other Baptists Harlock jds 15:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there a good reason why the WBC's web site is not listed in the links? It's a pretty offensive site, but it is relevant to the article.
Site -> http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html
-- WiccaWeb 20:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- The word "fag" is a contraction of the word "faggot" (or, "fagot"). When traced through its etymological history, the word "faggot" simply means "a bundle of sticks used as fuel." See dictionary.com and thesaurus.com (where such words as "fuel" and "brimstone" are used as synonyms). "Scholars" can't decide when such a word began to be used in reference to homosexuals, so we'll give the answer here: "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord." Amos 4:11. The word translated "firebrand" is the Hebrew word "uwd," which comes from a Hebrew verb meaning "to rake together" (or, "to gather together"). In short, the Hebrew word "uwd" is talking about burning sticks of wood that are gathered together. That is what the English word "faggot" means. Amos 4:11 could just as easily be translated "...ye were as a faggot plucked out of the burning..."
Someone want to straighten this out? It sounds like they want to burn gays at the stake. And yet, Thou Shalt Not Kill. --Jnelson09 00:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I forgot the exact wording, but I read that they said their purpose is to make people hate God. If someone can find that, they better put it in the purpose section right away. --Jnelson09 00:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Where is the link to the wbc-homepage? can someone put it in?
In the list of signs used, "God hates PS3" and "Fags play PS3" are included. These signs aren't shown on the link, and everything I can find on Google is using Wikipedia as it's source. Vandalism?
For the anti-Mormon thing, you can use the statement about the Qur'an as a source where he talks about the Book of Mormon (the statement come from here), or there's these two accounts [2] [3] of the What's Wrong with the Mormon Church? lecture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.138.87.114 (talk) 17:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
Seems I once read that Phelps' daughter was on the Topeka city council and they were friends (or at least political acquaintances) with Al Gore? If anyone has this information, it would be good for the article, if no other reason that the irony...
Once again, I'll bring this up: This offensive group's web site is relevant. Circular references to the Fred Phelps article is just silly. The Web address is relevant. Show a good reason for its removal or I'll just put it back. WiccaWeb 05:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's be sure they're really a church before we call them as such. Like what was said above, are their services mainly hoaxes? Do they really have a congregation that meets regularly (because it would seem to me all of their active members are on the road on weekends and are NOT in Westboro, Kansas).
Let's make it very clear that these people are not truly Baptists but are most likely disguising themselves as such to get around U.S. tax codes and to lampoon theological Calvinism. 207.43.79.22 14:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
And, does church have to be capitalized on second reference? The author is lending them too much credit! 207.43.79.22 14:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record they meet all the minimum standards for being a church in Kansas, they do not accept donations so there is no tax angle I can see. There is evidence of avoiding some property taxes but that is probably chump change. Geo8rge 19:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I think they are a church in the same way hitler was a rabbi.70.72.162.9 03:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
>>OMAHA, Neb. (AP) — A member of the Kansas group that has drawn criticism for protesting at soldiers’ funerals has been arrested for letting her 10-year-old son stomp on a U.S. flag during a demonstration. She promised Wednesday to challenge the state’s flag desecration law in court.
Note: Westboro typically does not stomp on flags or burn flags at rallies when in states that are more tolerant of flag-burning. 207.43.79.22 20:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
This morning (05/06) spokeswomen from the Westboro Baptist Church discussed their controversial view points on the Jeremy Kyle Show. They suggested that the Virginia Tech Massacre was a cleansing act of God and that the awful actions of 9/11 were "good". I have never heard something so appalling in all my life.
God is love, forgiveness and truth.
What these people were allowed to say on public TV made me extremely angry.
[4]. Please add this under the "legal" section... protests are required to be 500 feet from funeral in Michigan, passed last year as a result of WBC. --66.227.194.89 20:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Done Geo8rge 19:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph in here doesn't seem encyclopedic to me...
"Even from a neutral perspective, it is undeniable that the group is racist, homophobic and anti-semitic. If God hates anyone, it is likely to be the members of Westboro Baptist Church." Ebudiu 04:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I have replaced both incidences of the above with 'homosexuals'. There is a widespread misconception that the 'homo' part of the word relates to men and therefore the word means men who have sex with men, whereas in fact it is 'homos' which is Greek for 'same' and therefore homosexuals have sex with their own sex (something of a no-brainer, since heterosexuals have sex with the opposite sex), i.e., lesbians are homosexuals and are therefore included semantically in the word 'homosexual'. It is arguable that as a reference work, Wikipedia should use language which is consistent with proper (and logical) usage, not the usage of the dictionary-shy. Iantnm 18:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone with power please remove the apostrophe?
Also, mention is needed here of the 21st June 2007 UK Channel 4 tv show "Keith Allen will burn in hell", which profiled wbc.
God Smokes Fags its a flash animation of 'God' sitting on a cloud smoking. Not hugely important, but at least noteworthy? 82.28.38.149 19:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)i am not sure how to write my name!
http://cjonline.com/webindepth/phelps/ An in-depth article/archive on the WBC, from people who know much about their activities, the Topeka Capital-Journal.
http://www.addictedtohate.com/index.php Another website critical of the WBC, it includes message boards and text of the book "Addicted to Hate" by Jon Michael Bell, an exposé of Fred Phelps.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.158.132.80 (talk) 04:25, 28 June 2007
If WBC is supposed to be a Christian movement... why do they stick up for Islamic terrorism so much? Maybe the group is a bogus Al-Queda/Hamas front group? Worth mentioning. That's be funny to learn that Fred Phelps is a RACE TRAITOR! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.162.204.6 (talk) 22:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible that they don't actually believe what their saying and there just doing it for the lulz? 76.88.134.11 13:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how anyone, delusional or not, could've considered the V Tech victims, the miners, and the Amish children "fag enablers". I suspect a few of them are just in it for the darkest lulz. --68.60.198.101 23:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I am a Christian, and I think this church are the ones to be burned in hell - us Christians are meant to love everyone with open arms, These people are sick - God created people all the same - I have the uttermost respect for all races religions etc - there is nothing wrong with gays or anyone!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmg12 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
^^...and hopefully you won't get tarred with the same brush as these bastards! I mean it's pretty obvious as to how unchristian these westboro baptist animals are. (192.43.227.18 04:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC))
I've lived in Kansas nearly all my life, and live near Topeka. Believe me, they are for real, and NO, Kansans do not believe in their B.S. They are an ultra small brainwashing organization made up mostly of immediate family members. I feel very sorry for the children that grew up in the church. IF the church is in any way disingenuous, only Fred knows about it. This is not the kind of organization you can infiltrate for your own amusement.12.105.154.103 05:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank God for juries. Anthony Krupp 01:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- ^^Here here! (192.43.227.18 02:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC))
-- Yeah, I hate to be another anonymous dis artist on the internet, but dear God, I'm a U.S. citizen and Fred Phelps is one of the most appalling human people I've ever seen. I wouldn't mind seeing national-level legislation that prevents funeral picketing...it's hard for me to see how that kind of thing ever does much good. I'm sort of in the process of converting to Christianity, and I probably would have done it much more wholeheartedly by now if it weren't for the Fred Phelps' and Jack Chick's of the world. God is supposed to bring love, if one is a Christian, not horrible, painful sadness and misinformation. 76.90.141.94 12:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
If Fred Phelp's followers insist on spreading their hate message, they need not do it under the guise of a church.People everywhere need to know that God loves them unconditionally and that the true followers of the living God would never say that "God hates Fags". If these hate mongers actually read the Bible, they would realize that God is a God of love. He loves all people, including those who are caught up in the homosexual lifestyle. It is true that He hates all sin, including homosexuality, prejudice, hate, strife, etc. but He loves the sinner. God sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die for all sinners. but we must choose to serve Him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.162 (talk) 04:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
According to the caption in a picture of a man holding a "God Hates Fags! Rom. 9:13" sign: "The cited Bible verse, Romans 9:13, has nothing to do with homosexuality, but rather is simply a biblical example of God hating a certain person (in this case, Esau)."
Well, according to the New American Bible about that verse: "As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau", St. Paul was referring to the Book of Malachi when God said through the prophet himself: "Was not Esau Jacob's brother? says the LORD: yet I loved [preferred] Jacob [to Israel], but hated [rejected] Esau [to Edom]; / I made his mountains a waste, his heritage a desert for jackals." (1:3) According to its footnote, St. Paul uses this verse as an example of God's freedom in calling the Gentiles to the faith, not in hating homosexuals.
Is that clear? --Angeldeb82 20:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Westboro Baptist Church is no more than the KKK in an official church form. --71.224.18.28 05:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)