The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:23, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Woodford → Woodford, London — because there are many other places called Woodford listed at Woodford (disambiguation). Although the London suburb appears to be by some way the biggest, I don't think that it can reasonably be argued to be more significant than all the other Woodfords put together, and unless it is more significant than all the others then the greatest number of readers will be facilitated by having the disambiguation page at Woodford. Having the dab page at the undisambiguated title also assists in ensuring that all links points to the correct article, because there should then be no links to Woodford, and any which are created can be easily disambiguated using WP:POPUPS. This helps both readers and editors. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note In case editors are concerned about the work involved in fixing incoming links after the move, I undertake to do the disambiguation myself. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The policy benchmark is much more used than any other topic (WP:D) not much more used than all the others put together. Because of its age (by far the oldest) and size, it is the primary topic. MRSC (talk) 14:56, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply. This does indeed appear to be the current wording of WP:DAB (which by the way is a guideline, not a policy; note the distinction at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines). However, it's a perverse and silly wording, as this following example illustrates.
    There are 31 articles on places called "Abcxmyz". 30 of them get ten hits each, but one "Abcxmyz, Ruritania" gets get 100 hits. So we have a total of (3 X 10) + 100 = 400 hits, of which one gets ten times as many hits as any other single article, but still only 25% of the total. By selecting "Abcxmyz, Ruritania" as the primary topic, we inconvenience 75% of the readers searching by name, and screw up disambiguation of internal links.
    That's why it makes much more sense to compare one topic with "all the others put together", rather than a single other. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This should be taken up at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation, because such a change would have a strong impact on UK geography articles. The current set up often favours the "original"/older UK placename with all the alternatives occupying disambiguation. If we want to move to a model where every alternative is automatically disambiguated, the guideline needs to be agreed and updated first. MRSC (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it may be time to rewrite that guideline. Wikipedia guidelines are descriptive, not prescriptive, meaning they describe what we generally do, not tell us what to do. BrownHairedGirl is correct that we generally do compare the purported primary topic to all other contenders collectively. --Una Smith (talk) 18:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly they do both. From what I've seen of similar discussions involving UK place moves there has been a strong preference among editors for keeping an article in the primary slot where one already exists and our policies and guidelines (as far as I can see) support this. MRSC (talk) 18:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inertia seems to me to be a very bad principle for any such decision. The notion that there are some cases where a primary slot "already exists" is bizarre", because there is always a primary slot. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there appears to be a strong preference by editors of UK articles to equate oldest to be primary. That does not carry over to other countries or other types of articles. So past decisions are not setting a precedent. If everyone agreed, then maybe there would be an exception, but clearly the proposals in this area have been more of a no consensus rather then support for the oldest is primary. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I'm sometimes persuaded by these arguments, but in this case, it does seem to be the primary usage; indeed having more "potential readers to be facilitated than all the other uses put together" (Woodford Reserve notwithstanding ...). I'm not convinced that small villages and rural areas should trump suburbs of mega-conurbations just because they exist. Essentially, that's what hatnotes are for. The dab itself should probably be split into places and names. Kbthompson (talk) 15:19, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Support the whole world doesn't revolve around London. When a topic has many disambigs, it's only reasonable to put every topic under the same standard. FWIW, when I look for Woodford, Greater Manchester, I expected it at this page. Why should this get priority? Majorly talk 15:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Support The London location isn't particuarly more notable than the other places known by that name on the disambiguation place. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 16:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support — The question at issue here is this: is Woodford, London the primary topic of "Woodford"? I think not. --Una Smith (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When an article occupies the ambiguous base name, as is the case here, a fraction of that article's page views necessarily are in error; the magnitude of this error can be seen by comparing page views on the dab page. For example, Michael Jackson (disambiguation) had 157173 page views in 2009,[1] and Michael Jackson had 29288614:[2] the dab page got 1 view for every 200 views of the primary topic. (This ratio was pretty much constant, which suggests that 1 in 200 people reading about Michael Jackson the singer want to know about other people named Michael Jackson.) Now, Woodford (disambiguation) gets about 1 view for every 9 views of Woodford. It would appear that Woodford, London is not the primary topic. Furthermore, Woodford, London is one of a cluster of related articles, so it is even more likely that many of its page views are in error, the reader actually wanting another article in the cluster. Page views in 2009:

• 16879 Woodford
• 12510 South Woodford
• 11694 Woodford Green
• 5916 Woodford tube station
• 5146 South Woodford tube station
• 1183 Woodford Bridge

• 31234 Woodford Reserve

• 1970 Woodford (disambiguation)

One common rule of thumb is that to qualify as the primary topic the most viewed article should have 10x the page views of the next most viewed article. The most viewed article above is Woodford Reserve, but it is not 10x more viewed than others. It is not much more used than any other topic. No primary topic here. --Una Smith (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Woodford Reserve isn't actually known as Woodford. It it were, the links to Woodford and Woodford (disambiguation) would be much higher because of misdirected readers. It is listed as a "see also" purely because the name starts with Woodford. MRSC (talk) 16:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right. On the other hand, from my experience fixing links to dab pages I would expect a substantial fraction of links to Woodford actually intend Woodford Reserve. I note also that Woodford Bridge is a redirect and Woodford Wells is a redlink. --Una Smith (talk) 17:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• • Comment [conflicted] let me get this clear, the dab page is referred to once for every nine views of Woodford? Demonstrating that readers have reached their primary objective on the first hit, so why are you supporting changing the status quo? Qualified Woodfords are not a reason for disambiguation; only places named "Woodford". None of those are as significant as this place. As to comparing with a whiskey, its proper name is "Woodford Reserve"; not any of its constituent parts. Qualified names should be mentioned on a dab page, but are not a reason for dab. The London location is notable for being the birthplace of William Morris and James Hilton; it is also notable for being the residence of Sylvia Pankhurst and two prime ministers: Churchill and Atlee ....; and a leader of the opposition - Lansbury. Kbthompson (talk) 17:37, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    It demonstrates the opposite: that in all likelihood many (perhaps even most) readers coming to Woodford are not looking for the article about Woodford, London. --Una Smith (talk) 17:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the stats you have presented do not support your argument. MRSC (talk) 18:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• • [conflicted] Obviously, if they find the article they want - about the one in London (at Woodford, as they have previously), they have no incentive to go to the dab page; or are you arguing they give up? Woodford, London was only created when Majorly moved this article there. Kbthompson (talk) 18:25, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • I disagree with its significance compared to other articles on the disambiguation page. For example, Woodford, Greater Manchester may be a lot smaller, but it has still been noted for its high house prices and wealthy residents, including notable people such as George Best and Cristiano Ronaldo. Majorly talk 17:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

None of the other Woodfords has the length or richness of history, going right back to Domesday. Had Woodford emerged merely as an interwar suburb I might have been swayed, but it experienced growth much earlier and as such has a significant history and connection to notable figures. Of the list of Woodfords it is, by far, the most notable on this basis. MRSC (talk) 18:19, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

((citation needed)). Have you researched all the different Woodfords on the list, or are you just saying what you believe? Majorly talk 18:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you can find one in that list, of larger or even comparable size that dates back to 1086 I will give you a piece of Xmas candy. MRSC (talk) 18:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re None of the other Woodfords has the length or richness of history, going right back to Domesday. — the Woodford in existence then appears to have been a manor house, not the modern informal district called Woodford that is the topic of the article now at the page name Woodford. Both Woodford Green and Woodford Bridge predate this "Woodford". The name Woodford may be ancient, but it seems the Wikipedia article now claims the name, unqualified, has a relatively weak claim to it. --Una Smith (talk) 22:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• • [conflicted] You mistake transient celebrity for notability; and none of that seems to have been considered notable by prior editors of the article - so, not even mentioned. The article on the place in Manchester doesn't even indicate a post code! I think the estate agent blurb (on prices) would be grossly unencyclopaedic in any article. If the 'significance' of the other places on the dab page were greater, then I would presume their articles would make the case - well, any case at all for their significance ... improvement of all these articles would be good! Kbthompson (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All this is irrelevant really - the question is whether or not a primary topic exists, which is where there is disagreement. It's not about the size or age of the place, but how often the page is used (views, links etc). Majorly talk 18:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A misunderstanding of disambiguation. If a place is older and has been the most sizeable for some time it has more interconnectivity with history and historical figures. This is shown in the wealth of source material that refers to Woodford and its inhabitants throughout history. MRSC (talk) 18:37, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The silliness of the my-Woodford's-better-than-your-Woodford-so-there discussion above brilliantly illustrates the folly of the quest for a "primary" topic. Amongst some editors in these discussions there seems to be some sort of a status issue attached to have "their" article in pole position, and that's as futile an argument as which TV game show is nicer to watch. (So gimme the remote now, or I'll hit myself and tell mummy you did it).
  Just disambiguate them, and let the reader decide according to their own interests. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:50, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be highlighting a divergence of views I did not realise existed. "disambiguate everything automatically" vs. "disambiguate only where absolutely necessary". I've always been of the view that our policies and guidelines tend towards the latter. I haven't seen anything to convince me to the contrary. Perhaps it comes down to personal preference. MRSC (talk) 19:10, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are setting up two false extremes. I do not advocate "disambiguate everything", and am quite happy that (for example) John Major is a primary topic. I'm also reasonably happy with the compromise contained in the general thrust of the guidelines, which is to disambiguate where there is no clear primary topic (not, as you falsely claim "only where absolutely necessary"). But arguing about the relative merits of one suburb versus another suburb and a long list of villages is a futile exercise which brings us back to the guidance at WP:DAB that "If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic".
Where I differ from some interpretations of the guideline is that I think many of these discussions could be avoided by stating a clear principle of taking disambiguation as the default position. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. The above discussion indicates that the primary meaning of "Woodford" is a matter of debate, and therefore Woodford should be a dab page. I personally would consider the primary meaning of "Woodford" to be BAE Woodford, but I freely admit that's due to geographical and career biases; it just illustrates that the London suburb is not the obvious primary topic. Tevildo (talk) 20:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Given the amount of discussion and the number of uses, I fail to see how there is a possibility of any of these being the primary topic. First or oldest is not by policy or guideline primary. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:44, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.