Article title

article should probably reside at astrolatry, which is the unambiguous term. I had a hard time figuring out what "astro-theology" is supposed to mean, as the term is thrown around in various and partly confused contexts of the "religion vs science" debate in the 18th century. --dab (𒁳) 12:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Problematic, as it is not a neutral term. Skyerise (talk) 01:36, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Manly P. Hall

Can someone familiar with his work cite this? Or on second thought, wasn't he just a great compiler of such details? Has the comparison been drawn by others? Do we even need that paragraph? Skyerise (talk) 15:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Planetary magic

A section should be added about the relationship with the planetary magic of Hermetic Qabala, along with other systems (eg. John Dee, other non-qabalistic systems of planetary magic). Thompson's book in Further reading addresses this, though mostly from the POV of James Lees so other sources would be needed. Iirc, Dennings & Phillips also covered this in their ogdoadic system. Skyerise (talk) 13:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Technical Writing

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 October 2023 and 24 October 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dp20032003 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Dp20032003 (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Astrotheology"

It seems that the academic use of "astrotheology" is unrelated to the way it is used here, as the worship of the stars (individually or together as the night sky), the planets, and other heavenly bodies as deities, or the association of deities with heavenly bodies. It is allegedly a WP:NPOV version of astrolatry, which now redirects here. However the actual use of this term in academic literature, including literature included on the page, seems to be very different, see:

...and plenty of others, I found all of these just doing a quick search for "astrotheology" on Google Scholar. These all discuss the intersections of modern spaceflight and theology "to identify elements of religion and myth in discussions of space science and to prepare people for possible future developments" as Harrison puts it. It is not a term for "the worship of stars" or other heavenly bodies. The term appears to refer to a much narrower idea which really only encompasses what is covered here at Astrotheology#Connections with other fields. Indeed, the earliest use of the term is by William Derham, who argued the "demonstration of sacred truths" from "a survey of heavenly bodies" according to the original version of the page. The idea that astrotheology refers to the worship of astral bodies seems to originate with an unreliable source: Irvin, Jan; Rutajit, Andrew (2006-01-01). Astrotheology and Shamanism. ISBN 978-1-58509-107-2. This books argues that Christianity is a pagan cult originally based on star-worship and the use of psychedelics, and knowledge of these hidden roots are "concealed behind a campaign to prohibit access to entheogenic sacraments through a Pharmacratic Inquisition."

It seems that Astrotheology was previously merged into Astrolatry by @Klbrain in 2018, see here. @Liz appears to have moved Astrolatry to Astrotheology under the presumption that "astrolatry" does not reflect a WP:NPOV.

@Liz: why is "astrolatry" not neutral? It seems to be used widely and there's a number of people who use it as a self-descriptor. Furthermore, it seems this alternative is not an improvement. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've done a WP:BOLD move and moved Astrotheology to Worship of heavenly bodies. This is a more general title which retains the WP:NPOV of "Astrotheology" while avoiding the issue of how this word is actually used in practically all scholarship today -- a way that is decidedly different and perhaps unrelated to Derham's 18th century coinage. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:15, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For interested parties: I have been re-writing the Astrotheology page from scratch to conform with WP:RSs. I have yet to find any source for the claim that "astrotheology" as a word means the worship of heavenly bodies -- it seems the only places using this definition are crank conspiracy websites, Christian apologist publications responding to said conspiracy websites, and the fringe mythicist Richard Carrier. For example:
...and plenty of others, but still no RS for this usage.Webster's gives Astrotheology as "Theology founded on observation or knowledge of the celestial bodies", and the OED gives "that part of theology which may be deduced from the study of the stars; a religious system founded upon the observation of the heavens", both of which are subtely but acutely different from the usage initially given. Both accord with Derham who talks very little of pre-Christian belief. In regards to WP:NPOV: I don't think "astrotheology" is neutral as some think it to be, as today "theology" generally encompasses the Abrahamic faiths and it is not really appropriate to apply it to, e.g. the Lakota or pole-star worship or what have you. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I moved this article in 2021 based on a CSD tagged move request by Skyerise. I didn't realize that a previous article under this page title had already been deleted (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Astrotheology). And now there is a new article at this title. Skyerise would like to move this article again to Astral religion and I asked that the subject be brought up here since there has been a difference of opinion on the article title in the past. Liz Read! Talk! 00:24, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a strong opinion on "Astral religion" vs. "Worship of heavenly bodies", personally. A quick search of scholarly literature shows both, the former might be less clunky. Tryin to make a change :-/ 05:12, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, note Brill's Religion Past and Present, which states that "astral religion" is the "cultic worship of heavenly bodies or deities associated with them." This implies that "worship of heavenly bodies" is a more general term which can encompass things outside of organized cults. Tryin to make a change :-/ 06:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are no examples in the article which are practiced outside of such organized groups, nor are there likely to be since sources would not cover an individual's idiosyncratic religious practice. Skyerise (talk) 12:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 December 2023

Worship of heavenly bodies → Astral religion – the correct term for this is "astral religion", the current title is ad-hoc and made up by an editor who failed to follow process and open a proper move request. Skyerise (talk) 12:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus (talk) 11:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a reference for "astral religion" being the "correct term"? Also, WP:BOLD moves are not "failing to follow process" -- it is fix[ing] it yourself instead of just talking about it. That is irrelevant, though. Tryin to make a change :-/ 12:43, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You provided a reference above (Religion Past and Present). All astral religions are astral cults, a technical term which does not equate to the popular meaning of the word "cult". Skyerise (talk) 16:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[A]stral religions are astral cults but not all worship of heavenly bodies can properly be called cultic (which as you note is not the same as the popular meaning of the word "cult" but a technical term that does not encompass the entirety of religious phenomena.) As I noted about the source, it implies that the worship of heavenly bodies is the wider phenomenon being discussed. You know, looking at the page, this page borders on WP:SYNTH or even WP:OR -- I don't actually think that there is a "proper name" to be discussed here since it is mostly pieced together mentions of star and planet worship in various religions rather than something that is studied as a phenomenon in its own right. Tryin to make a change :-/ 18:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Astral religion or astral cult are the terms most widely used in the archeological and anthropological literature. The term applies to every single one of the worldwide examples described in the article. Nobody uses "worship of heavenly bodies" - which itself shows a bias and "heavenly" should be replaced with "astronomical" in any case. Clearly I'll have to go to the relevant projects to find knowledgable editors in the field. Skyerise (talk) 11:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm sort of convinced on the evidence presented above, and otherwise most other articles refer to things in space as astronomical objects, and the name of this article should be consistent with that usage. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 23:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Worship of heavenly bodies" is widely used as such. Srnec (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, in definitions of "astral religion", primarily. Skyerise (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. This surprised me too. Srnec (talk) 01:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, despite claims to the contrary Worship of heavenly bodies is not an ad hoc coining but something I came across scouring scholarly literature for astrotheology. Tryin to make a change :-/ 13:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Categories