Wikipedia needs good, accurate information, well presented.
Wikipedia exists for the people who use it or who will potentially use it, not for the people who edit it. Every edit should either improve the factual accuracy of Wikipedia or make it easier and more useful for the reader. Any edit that does not serve these goals is a waste of time and energy, and quite possibly counterproductive.
...about Wikipedia and Wikipedians:
See also: Wikipedia:Tag bombing |
Each and every Wikipedia article serves as an advertisement for the project and an inducement for people to return. A well-written well-structured, visually attractive article, with good, reliable information will encourage people to come back again and again, while the page above, where the tags take up almost the entire content seen by the reader, is a positive discouragement to people. I'm sure that the intent is to say: look how honest we are, all our faults are in sight for everyone to see, but what it actually says to people is "Look how shitty we are, this article isn't worth your time, go somewhere else."
Please note, that I am not in any way dispargaing the motivation for placing these tags, I'm certain the only purpose was to help provoke a better article -- which, in this case, seems to have happened to some extent -- but we are well past the point where Wikipedia is in its infacy, and we need to be much more cognizant of how we present ourselves to the public. There must be a way that we can keep the goals and purposes of legitimate tagging without defacing articles and driving away our customers! Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films#My Neighbor Totoro 20:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
See also: WP:STEWARDSHIP |
Scenario 2: I watch a film on DVD. I take something that happened in the film and insert it into the Wikipedia article on that film, describing it as accurately as I can. The information, therefore, has been perceived by me, described by me, and inserted by me, with a reference to the film it came from. Anyone who want to verify the information goes to the source, views what's in the film, and checks it against what I have written.
These scenarios are identical. Describing what occurs in a media artifact, such as a DVD, VHS, CD, LP or book is not original research, as it involves no more original work that the use of information from a reliable source. It is observation not "original research". There is no more reliable source for the contents of a media artifact than the media artifact itself. 21:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
See also: § Tips on images (I), and § Tips on images (II) |
My primary concern (as always) is with the user, and specfically not with registered users and those who are familiar with Wikipedia, but with the users who come to Wikipedia as a reference source without knowing, or wanting to know, anything about the project. They're not here to edit or register for yet another website, they're here to find out something about a particular subject. These people are our target audience, because if Wikipedia seems to them to be a good source of reliable information which is well-presented, they'll come back again, and perhaps, at some point, get more involved in the project, and they'll reccommend the site to others.
It's the "well-presented" angle that I'm aiming at here. The naive user will come to Wikipedia with no specific preference settings, and what they'll see if the images are not hardcoded with a specific size are tiny postage-stamp sized pictures which are often hard to see or difficult to make out what's in them, which, in that state, hardly contribute at all to a well-presented article - if anything, they can be said to distract from it.
If an image is included on a page, it should be shown at the minimum size necessary to make it visually comprehensible without overwhelming the text. In short, it should enhance the text, and neither pull focus nor appear to be an afterthought. This requires that editors take some care in the placement and arrangement of the images, as well as in their size, and speaks against leaving them in their raw thumbnail state.
I appreciate that those who want images to remain uncoded for size are doing so in the spirit of individual choice, but I think they're overlooking the fact that if Wikipedia is to be a success and become the first choice for immediate online information, it needs to serve not only the people who hang around and know its ins-and-outs, but also all those who may come by only occasionally just to dip into the well. Talk:Dr. Strangelove 16:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This paradoxical relationship can easily be observed in the way that Wikipedia deals with pop culture. On the one hand, the project's coverage of pop culture is much more extensive that any print encyclopedia would ever allow (both for fear of being quickly dated and because of snobbery), and the coverage tends to be extremely in-depth. This is a natural result of being an on-line resource primarily written by young people, who generally give such subjects much more attention than older people, and a consequence of being easily updated so as to not fall behind the current fads and styles. On the other hand, Wikipedia has instituted – or attempted to institute – controls on the way pop cultural references can be used within non-pop culture (or semi-pop culture) articles. While superficially reasonable, and in line with ordinary Wikipedia policies about verifiability and notability, the underlying purpose of the controls is to be used as a tool to remove pop cultural references entirely from those articles, since the standards promulgated are generally next to impossible to meet.Americans have an extraordinary love-hate relationship with the rich culture they've created. They buy, watch and read it even as they ban, block and condemn it.
It is difficult to say why so many Wikipedians object to pop cultural references so vehemently, but I suspect that both snobbery and a fear of not being taken seriously enter into it. The former is unfortunate, but probably an inevitable push-back from older editors against the prevalence of younger contributors, but the latter, the fear of the project not being taken seriously, is quite ironic, since it's much more likely that those hackles would be raised by Wikipedians' sometimes ridiculous pseudonyms than by a few carefully selected and edited pop cultural references. 21:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
When you think about it, it makes perfect sense, since the people who hang out at AN/I are, by and large, admins or their friends and hangers-on, and it's almost inevitable that, either consciously or without being at all aware of it, they are going to be biased in favor of other admins. When a civilian brings a complaint about an admin, there is a distinct tendency to reject it out of hand as sour grapes or a deliberate attack, and, to a large extent, the wagons get circled.
This is not to say that admins don't come in for their share of criticism on AN/I or AN, but almost invariably it comes from other adminis or those closely associated with them (maybe we should call them "neo-admins"). When this happens, it's then sometimes possible to insert a civilian grievance against that admin and have it be dealt with seriously, but even that is not assured.
Unfortunately, although I've observed this behavior, I haven't yet figured out what alternate methods are efficiacious in getting a grievance against an admin seriously considered. There's no umbudsman, Requests for Comments are virtually useless, and ArbCom will only take serious problems or those involving fairly well-known users. For the middling editor with a problem, there really doesn't seem to be anywhere to go for relief in the kind of instance you outlined.
[...] I don't know if Wikipedia can or will evolve an institution which gives the civilian editor a fair chance against an admin [...] but I certainly don't see one existing at the present time. User talk:Ed Fitzgerald 21:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
(One of the great failings of the Wikipedian system of governance is that there is no mechanism for processing and impartial evaluation of complaints about admin behavior by civilian editors; the net result is that adminiship is effectively a life-time appointment. Only the most egregious misbehavior by an admin will get any action, and then only if it is reported by another admin. Non-admins are effectively powerless against admins, which means that a reasonable reaction would be for non-admins to vote against every candidate who wishes to become an admin, on the grounds that until there is an effective way to control wayward administrators, no more of them should be appointed. This will not happen, of course.)
In the case of images, any image nominated for deletion on even the flimsiest of policy grounds is automatically assumed to be guilty of violating image policy, and will most likely be deleted, no matter how many reasonably presented !votes to keep the image are registered. The presumed policy violation trumps both rational evaluation of arguments and the expressed wishes of the community. Such a system presents to the sophisticated vandal an ideal mechanism for harming Wikipedia: simply nominate as many images as possible for deletion on policy grounds, and then sit back and let the process take its course. The end result will be numerous deletions of images which enriched the project, and a resulting diminution of the quality of the encyclopedia. 22:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Assuming good faith is useful when two explanations of an editor's actions are available, and both are equally likely; then, AGF requires us to pick the one which reflects the best on the editor's motivations. But AGF should never carry any weight of its own. That is, once the evidence indicates that one explanation is more likely than the other, AGF shouldn't "rebalance" the scales to make drawing a conclusion impossible. AGF only comes into play when the two choices are equally probable. 05:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)Keeping an open mind is a virtue - but, as the space engineer James Oberg once said, not so open that your brains fall out.
The frustration this constant moving of the goalposts creates is difficult to contain, and probably accounts for a great deal of "burnout" among Wikipedians. This phenomenon, of long-time editors being pushed past their limits by the frustration of simply trying to make Wikipedia better, is widely accepted as just part of the working environment. There is little understanding or acknowledgement that Wiki burnout is a malignant systemic artifact that is indicative of a serious problem in the way Wikipedia works, and is, in fact, a direct result of the libertarian origins of the project. 19:21, 4 January 2009 (UTC)My last major Wikipedia edit was towards the end of 2008 when I got fed up with people changing the rules on what was acceptable. Many times I would add something, an image or text, making sure that it observed all the standards current at the time. Then they changed that standards, so I had to change a lot of things to prevent it all from being deleted. When this happened for the third time I realised that Wikipedia is FUBAR. People are spending more time changing rules and making everyone else follow those rules than in adding any useful information or preventing vandalism.
Children, of course, can grow out of their deficiencies, but there's little reason to allow them they kind of free reign that Wikipedia does: whatever benefit the project gains from the energy and enthusiasm they're capable of bringing to it is more than offset by their callowness, inexperience and lack of impulse control. And while idiots can be more easily forgiven their idiocy, which presumably is not their fault, assholes are the bane of the existence of the conscientious editor, since they combine the idiot's fecklessness with a maliciousness that can sometimes border on sociopathy.
Fortunately, there are some solutions to help ameliorate these problems, although I doubt they can be eliminated entirely. One major step would be to eliminate the cover of anonymity and pseudonymity by which CIA editors are encouraged in their actions. It's so much easier to misbehave, act out or reject compromise when one is hiding behind an IP address or even the avatar of a pseudonym; the protection this provides encourages misbehavior. The solution to this is clear: no IP editing, stricter registration requirements, usernames that are recognizable names and not clever aphorisms, goofy inventions or ridiculous expressions, and steps to help insure that any one person edits under only one name. This will encourage a sense of responsibility for one's edits, and help eliminate the sense that Wikipedia is some kind of elaborate multi-player game in which one can behave however one pleases, and success is marked by how many people you annoy and how much useful editing you can prevent. 22:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
(Beyond My Ken's Evolving WikiAntiDogma)
(under construction -- I'm sure there'll be more)
1. Concentrate on editing. The social networking aspects of Wikipedia are a quagmire, and much too easy to be gradually sucked in to. Wikipedia may be a community, but it's a highly dysfunctional one that's it's best to remain aloof from, at least as much as humanly possible.
2. Cut back your watchlist as much as possible. Only watch articles which you've created or substantially improved, or which are very important to keep from being ruined.
3. Cut back on monitoring noticeboards. They're a snare and an illusion [sic], and very wasteful of time.
4. For any future RfCs, AN/I reports, etc. make one brief response, then ignore them as much as possible. Some short additional replies may be warranted, but be careful not to feed the opposition with too much information.
5. Drop any effort that proves not to be worth the energy.
6. When challenged, give it one more try, then drop the effort and go away; it's not worth fighting them.
7. You cannot win against an admin who really wants to win.
8. Remember: They are armed, you are not. When two admins tell you that black is white, it is fruitless to continue to try to show them that black is black and white is white. You don't need to accept their idiocy, just realize that there's little you can do about it, and continuing will just get you punished in some way.
9. Don't get comfortable, stay a little bit wary at all times. Comfort just encourages you to let down your guard, which can lead to trouble.
10. Stay below the radar. Edit reasonably and responsibly, and always with the goal of improving the encyclopedia, but, just as important, as much as possible, edit without drawing attention to yourself. Attention means trouble.
11. On the other hand, don't be an unknown, make sure that enough people are aware of who you are that you won't be treated like a clueless newbie.
12. Thinking of going to AN/I for relief? THINK AGAIN! If, after considering the pros and cons, you still want to post on AN/I - think again, again. Never post a complaint on AN/I if you haven't thought about it at least three times, and never post if there's the least chance that it will be turned against you. The culture of AN/I is biased towards WP:BOOMARANG gotchas, and it is not unusual for the complaintant to be dealt with more harshly than the supposed subject of the report.. Never assume that the person who responds to your complaint, admin or otherwise, will be able to make the fine judgments necessary to accurately evaluate the merits of the situation; in fact, it's best to assume that they won't. Remember that by complaining, you are drawing possibly unwanted attention to yourself.
13. Learn the lesson that collectively, Wikipedia doesn't want to be saved, it's not even very concerned about being fixed. It is quite happy being what it is, flawed or not.
14. Most importantly: Stay uninvolved, learn not to care.
While Wikipedia has many editors who are reasonable and willing to discuss things rationally to reach a compromise, or perhaps even change their minds, it also has more than its share of rigid, dogmatic, inflexible, unimaginative people who are unwilling or unable to see value in anything except their own fixed ideas. Interacting with these people will, eventually, grind you down, because while there are only a limited number of ways to improve an article, there are many, many ways to screw it up, some of which are, unfortunately, supported by wrong-headed Wikipedia policies. For all these reasons, it's best to do your editing and then move on and DON'T LOOK BACK. Looking back only opens the possibility that you'll find out that one of those rigid and dogmatic people has undone your work and is willing to go to the mat to prevent it from being fixed. You can't win with people like that, and the attempt to do so will only raise your blood pressure and aggravate you.
Remember: by definition, unreasonable people can't be reasoned with. Assholes and idiots abound – don't look back, they might be gaining (and probably are). 15:01, 8 April 2009
It should be said that the prescription is intended as a remedy for Wikipedia as I find it, and is not intended as an expression of the ideal editing behavior if the Wikipedia experience was everything that it could be. The fact that the prescription is so difficult to follow with any consistency is a strong indication that the remedy is forcing one to behave in a way that's just not in sync with human psychology. ("Here, spend all your free time researching, writing and editing these articles: but don't feel possesive of them!" It that were possible, we'd be overrun with succesful hippie communes from sea to shining sea.) The remedy is bizarre, but necessarily so, because of the idiosyncracies of the Wikipedia system. That's why I need to keep reminding myself to follow the presecription over and over again. 03:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
The ultimate question about Wikipedia always seems to be: given the number of problems associated with it, their severity and continuing nature, is it really worth the effort to edit it? Does its great potential justify the Sisyphean struggle to improve it when the hill just seems to get steeper and steeper?
Unfortunately, the answer changes from day to day and month to month, depending on how strong the tide of incompetence, dogmatism and reaction are at that moment. So far, the lure has always returned, eventually, no matter how great the frustration has been. Whether that will always be the case is anybody's guess.
All too often, the function of the leader is to make the decisions that no individual is willing or able to make, and for this they are honored (if they're lucky) or castigated (if they're not). Having no leader, and no functional equivalent of a leader (the prevailing ideology prevents there from being one; whenever ArbCom comes close to approaching that role, howls of protest are sure to follow), Wikipedia depends on randomness instead, and for random (or semi-random) processes to arrive at a positive result requires not only a great deal of time, but also some controlling mechanism which guides things in the appropriate direction. Whether Wikipedia's mechanism (its editors, especially its administrators) is sufficient for the job is still an open question, but it's increasingly doubtful whether it has enough time. 05:43, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
What makes Wales' involvement more disturbing is that his changes often seem more concerned with protecting the legal or public relations position of the Wikimedia Foundation rather than improving the encyclopedia per se. Granted, the continued existence of the Foundation is a necessity for the continued survivial of the encyclopedia, but, on balance, Wales' exertions of power seem more focused on the former to the detriment of the latter, the current moral panic over biographies of living people, and the public-relations panic over "pornography" on the Commons being another. With the current situation, Wikipedia gets the worst of all worlds: no leadership on a continual basis combined with massive ad hoc interference from a "leader" more or less beyond the reach of popular ire. 19:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
This is largely the case with Wikipedia. The complexity of the project's policies and roles, their sometimes contradictory nature, the very existence of a "rule" which encourages ignoring all rules, and, most importantly, the wide discretion allowed to individual administrators in their interpretation and implementation of the rules, all help lead to widely varying results when the rules are broken. Editor A breaks the rules and is scolded or warned, while Editor B breaks them in exactly the same way and is blocked indefinitely. Such instances aren't hidden or difficult to find, on any given day one can see any numbers of cases on the Administrator's noticeboards, where the protests of those who are dealt with harshly are routinely ignored or disparaged, while other editors – better known, better connected or just more tolerated – break the rules with impunity until, finally, they go too far and their behavior can no longer be ignored or justified. While each individual instance of such disparity can be explained or justified, the net result of a system with such laxity of control for consistency is the perception of corruption, and general disrespect for the rules, which only leads to more disruptive behavior.
While Wikipedia's insistence on the necessity of coming to the right result, regardless of the process used to achieve it, is understandable in a project set up to create an encyclopedia and not to be a social system, the project's very emphasis on "community", "consensus" and so on as vital parts of creating a desireable atmosphere in which people will want to help out and contribute underlines the danger of having a system of social control which is not seen as legitimate by the participants. Whether Wikipedia likes it or not, it needs to provide a comfortable environment in which people (who are, after all, volunteering their time and labor) can help expand and polish the encyclopedia, and that means having a system of social control that is perceived as legitimate, one that is fair and consistent. The project's unwillingness to see itself as both social environment and encyclopedia project, and its insistence on ignoring the inequities in its system of social control is yet another weakness the effect of which, over time, will be to continue to drive people away from the project. 07:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The "house POV" of any serious, respectable reference work is going to be that human activity contributes to climate change. (That's the "house POV" of Britannica, for example). Just as the "house POV" is that HIV causes AIDS, that tobacco smoke causes cancer, that vaccines do not cause autism, and that the attacks of 9/11 were staged by Al-Qaeda rather than the U.S. or Israeli governments. I use scare quotes around "house POV", because this isn't really an editorial POV. Any honest effort to represent the current state of human knowledge will end up "favoring" these perspectives, because they are heavily favored in reputable sources.
In each case, there are significant dissenting points of view which deserve mention, but serious, respectable reference works are generally expected to prioritize mainstream thought and knowledge, rather than to provide an uncritical echo chamber for minoritarian talking points. To people who are personally invested in a particular minoritarian viewpoint, that can look like a "house POV", I suppose. But it's actually part and parcel of creating a serious reference work, as opposed to a search engine. MastCell Talk 16:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC) posted on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision#Possible_Sock_investigation
Wikipedia's edifice is built upon foundation laid down on a house of sand, largely because it was the creation of philosophers concerned with the nature of "truth" rather than by historians with a professional grasp of the concept of bias. Official Wikipedia doctrine, which was not brought down from the mountain 5000 years ago by Moses but which was created by Larry Sanger and Jimmy Wales less than a decade ago, states that it is not the task of an editor to report what is objectively true and to leave by the wayside what is provably false, but rather to blindly and blithely transcribe the various assertions of so-called "reliable sources" and to leave it to the reader to sort through the various falsehoods to arrive at what is true for them. That's not verbatim, but a basic stating of their position and I don't think I do damage to their argument.
Fortunately, virtually nobody follows that model in real life. Virtually every content-creator on Wikipedia makes innumerable judgments about whether a fact is objectively true or provably false in the selection process, and the errors and distortion are left by the wayside. The small minority behaving according to the Flawed Original Model quickly find their intentionally-inserted errors cleared away. In their real world behavior, Wikipedians adhere to these three "pillars": VERACITY + VERIFIABILITY + NPOV. There's no drama in that observation, those are facts. Carrite (talk) 16:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC) posted on User talk:Carrite#ANI
Since the commerical outfit can, legally, start from Day 1 with Wikipedia's content as it then exists (as long as contributions are properly credited), they should get off the starting block pretty well, and the resulting competition will, unfortunately, drive Wikipedia into irrelevance, if not near extinction. That would be a shame, since I'd prefer a not-for-profit model, but even a non-profit can't ignore its core assets (its contributing editors) forever and get away with it. Such a scenario is not inevitable, but it seems to me to be highly likely: I've got to think there's an entrepreneur out there looking at the page ratings Wikipedia articles get on Google and salivating at the advertising platform it would make. (In fact, Google is my own personal bet for an organization which might just go for it.)
The WMF can't seem to understand that they're no longer in their start-up days, that attracting large volumes of new editors is not nearly as important now as it was back when something was being created out of nothing. With the encyclopedia in its early middle age, quality is much more important than quantity, and contributing editors are much more central to the continued success of the project than batches of newbies, many of whom will be prone to vandalism and screwing around. It's not unusual for visionaries to be blind to changing conditions, and sticking to their ground-breaking revelation long after its time has passed. intended to be posted on WP:ANI on 03:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC), but placed here instead
In the long run, Wikipedia may find that its apparent success at bucking basic qualities of human psychology is, at best, a temporary thing, and the project might well evolve into a more authoritarian mode. What would be worse is if it is forced into that mode by some kind of existential crisis, in which case it is likely that the change would go too far, and Wikipedia would become something its creators would not recognize; such overreaction to a crisis is hardly unusual. It would be better if the Foundation were to recognize that the success of Wikipedia is not without its problematic aspects, and were to deliberately and consciously re-tool the project to jettison those philosphical precepts (such as "Anyone can edit" meaning no registration) which have become a drag on the project's resources, as well as to institute some formal light authoritarian hierarchy to keep things from getting out of hand, as they very often do in the current system. 04:21, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm beginning to feel that overreliance on AGF as a primary operating principle has lead us into a blind alley where it's practically impossible to effectively regulate truly disruptive behavior without first going through hours of repetitive palaver and jumping through multiple hoops, all to get to a conclusion – a block – that seemed obvious from the beginning. Why not cut to the chase and block first, and apologize later (if it's warranted)? After all, we're not a microcosm of society, when an editor is blocked here he or she isn't deprived of his or her civil rights, they're simply not allowed to edit a privately-owned website they have no right to edit in the first place.
We're a project set up with a specific goal in mind, to make a comprehensive freely-available online encyclopedia, and yet we let political and philosophical principles get in the way of that goal again and again, to the point where volunteer editors spend a significant amount of their time not improving the encycylopedia, but simply battling the entropy created by vandalism, idiocy and advocacy, while at the same time having to dodge a minefield of regulations which steadfastly refuse to allow anyone to take a stand on what's what, instead focusing on who best dotted the I's and crossed the T's. It may not be insane, but it's definitely crazy. posted on User talk:Drmies#Observation 07:16, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
It seems to me that Wikpedia's lifetime adminship policy was a reasonable one for a start-up project which had no idea how successful it was going to be, but now that Wikipedia is middle-aged and successful, a different standard should be applied.
I don't expect this idea to take root immediately, but I'd like to put a bug in people's ears to perhaps inculcate the idea for the future. posted on Wikipedia talk:Requests for removal of adminship#Term limits 08:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
People keep complaining about the "drama boards" and calling for them to be closed, but perhaps we should consider a new user right instead, the ability to edit the Wikipedia domain unless the right is removed, and start taking it away from those people. In response to this nonsense, 03:43, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
That's absolutely correct, but, unfortunately, other editors tend to wave aside the experience that editors such as you and I have, which leads us to our suspicions, and get stuck on things such as WP:AGF, as if we weren't supposed to use our common sense and innate intelligence to evaluate the situation and reach a reasonable conclusion about the motives of disruptive editors. I sometimes think that many of the editors (and, unfortunately, admins) here are incapable of independent thought, and are utterly dependent on the rules and regulations before they can make up their minds; they have, in fact, no imagination and little ability for creative thought. As a result, their thinking is hackneyed and stultified, and their inability to see any further than their own noses damages the encyclopedia, albeit without any real intention to do so. Then, when someone comes along who really is determined to do harm, these people cannot rise to the occasion and see what is in front of them. Instead, they fall back on those comfortable memes which allow them to do nothing and still feel good about themselves. It's a damn shame, really; but, on the other hand, it makes me value even more those editors and admins I have come across who transcend those limitations and show their intelligence in their Wikipedian endeavors. posted on User talk:Beyond My Ken#AGF, etc., 12:47, 21 November 2012
And Kumioko, this person clearly knows what Wikipedia is, knows what some of its specific faults are, and yet refuses to step in and correct them, despite it being within his capability to do so. We're not in a position to have to grovel to such a person. Yes, we we would like and appreciate his help in improving the encyclopedia, but if he's not interested in doing so, I see no need to pretend that the loss is a significant one. Experts are, after all, a dime a dozen, as are amateurs, who often has as much knowledge as the pros, and are even more eager to share it. What we need to realize is that we're coming into a new regime where we are now one of the premiere channels for the propagation of knowledge, which means, sooner or later, the experts will come to terms with the fact that it's to their advantage to utilize us to spread knowledge about their specialities. When that happens, we'll see lot fewer of those like our geologist expert, and more willing to take it upon themselves to learn our system and adapt themselves to it. posted on WP:AN#Main page error reports are ignored 12:23 - 12:38, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
What's more important is that a coherent and rational top-down system of rules would probably have much less individual interpretation of what is and isn't a transgression, and (I would suspect) some sort of sliding scale whereby newbie editors would be given a break, and well-established editors would be also be given some leeway in light of their value to the project - so that Drmies would never have been blocked in the first place. We almost have that de facto now, except for those foolish people who insist that everyone should be treated precisely and exactly the same, no matter have much they've given - a serious mistake, in my view, because we're here to create an encyclopedia, that's our paramount concern, and whatever "community" comes about is a mere by-product. It's the friction between those two viewpoints that fuels the periodic eruptions such as the one yesterday. posted on User talk:Drmies], 23:15, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
However, when a PR person has direct access to the means of dissemination, as is the case with Wikipedia, there is no longer an effective filter between their output and the encyclopedia. (Those who think that the cumulative result of all editors watching over he encyclopedia is an effective safeguard might be interested in doing a search of the project for "penis" to see the extent of the run-of-the-mill vandalism which hasn't been reverted by such means.) This is where the danger lies. If we allow public relations people to have clear and unfettered access to edit the articles in the encyclopedia, it is inevitable that we will eventually lose whatever reputation we have built up for neutrality and accuracy. Yes, people will still come to Wikipedia for information, since that habit has effectively been formed, but we will no longer be a free source of neutral information, we will be just another media vector for promotion and publicity. Those who think otherwise are, I believe, sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring the blatant reality of the situation. Those who protest that we can't effectively police PR misbehavior are like inner-city cops who let crime get out of hand because it was just too hard to keep fighting against it. Yes, obviously, if we were to ban paid editing (as I believe we should) those editors would work overtime to get around our defenses, and that might require some policy changes on our part, such as loosening the restrictions on CheckUser investigations, but new strategies from the opposition require such responses on our part, and using such we can keep PR-fluff to a reasonable level.
I am absolutely certain that the vast majority of those opposing taking steps against PR-editing are sincere in their beliefs, but I believe that are entirely and utterly wrong. The game changed when Wikipedia became the first stop of choice for many people when they want to get a quick bit of information, and such a vector cannot be ignored by people who live and die by their ability to get out their clients' message to the most people possible. We are no longer amateurs here, regardless of whether we get paid or not, we are professional information providers, and it's our responsibility to see that the information we provide is as accurate and unbiased as possible. To do that in a context where we give free reign to those other professionals, the PR people whose job it is to provide biased and celebratory information, is much more difficult, which is why we should not be unbanning any admitted PR person. posted on AN/I 05:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, Wikipedia is, I think, a lot like "The Theatre". Once it's in your blood, it's goddamn hard to get rid of. Oh, you can fight it, you can resist for short periods of time, maybe even for significant ones, but Wikipedia will call you back again -- and when you return you'll find that it's just as exasperating and annoying and aggravating and enervating and full of assholes and idiots as it was when you left. (If for no other reason, Jimbo Wales will burn forever in Hell because of Wikipedia.) But, like addicts everywhere, you won't be as concerned with the adulterants in your drugs as you will that you get that "kick" than only your personal monkey can deliver, so you'll stick around, at least until the next time you kick.
Which is all to say: I appreciated you while you were here, I understand why you're gone, and I expect to see you again at some future time -- at least, I hope so. I'd really hate to see us lose one of the good ones. posted on User talk:Dennis Brown 05:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Like it or not, facts, encyclopedic facts, may well be harmful to some living people: criminals, corrupt politicians and avaricious businesspeople, just to name a few. Any additional broadcasting of the activities of these people will be harmful to them, their reputations, their court cases and their families - but that's hardly the point. The point of BLP is not to try to avoid doing harm to anyone, it's to avoid doing harm to living people if the facts are not extremely well supported by citations from the very best of reliable sources. When that happens, when impeachable sources -- not tabloids, not scandal sheets, not TMZ or E! -- report something, and those reports are corroborated by other equally reliable sources, then it's out of our hands. Not to include those facts is a distinct disservice to our readers -- the people we are supposed to be serving here -- and an abrogation of our responsibility as encyclopedists in the modern world. That those facts will have a harmful effect on a living person is regrettable, but the additional effect of our including them when unimpeachable sources are reporting them is minimal.
We are not a social services agency, here to make everyone feel better about themselves, we're here to write an encyclopedia in a neutral, straightforward, non-judgmental manner, with our information supported by citations from reliable sources. When we fulfill those requirements, we have fulfilled our obligations to our readers and to the subjects of our articles, to whom we owe nothing more than that: accuracy and neutrality. To say that we have another, overriding obligation, a blanket proscription to "do no harm" is a egregious misreading of the intent of the BLP policy, one that, if widely believed, would cripple our ability to do what it is we're here to do. posted on AN/I 08:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
So, either learn to communicate better in English or stop editing articles here in a way that requires other editors to fix your languager-related errors, or, preferably, edit the Wikipedia(s) in the language(s) you have better competency in. posted on AN/I 18:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
You can't let the inmates run the asylum
In the same way that MySpace was destine to succumb to FaceBook, Wikipedia – despite its current popularity – is destine to succumb to a future more robust competitor because of its fundamentally flawed management model.
Within the software industry, which originally pioneered the concept of dynamically changing teams for individual projects, there was a realization that every project needs some temporary leader at all times to be able to quickly diffuse controversies among the team's members.
The same way that a ship can only have one rudder, some project leader must always exist or a project’s team can easily degenerate into endless squabbling and eventual conflict.
Unlike Wikipedia, software companies sought to encourage individuals with the most passion for a topic to take ownership themselves – at least during the start of a project – and also realized that as a project matures, new project leaders were likely to be assigned over and over again.
Wikipedia’s central flaw was that it falsely assumed that if they wrote enough rules and documented them, that team members would instantly transform into trained and self-regulating lawyers, and be able to quickly and efficiently resolve project issues in a democratic and diplomatic style.
However time would show that the large body of rules would ironically not clarify but only create a fuzziness that aggressive individuals with a false sense of entitlement would seek to exploit, sometime in concert with other aggressive individuals, in arbitrarily forcing their decisions and designs upon a project (an article) – sometimes dictatorially reigning in this power-play for years at a time while stagnating the project.
The only salvation for Wikipedia to repair its broken management model by recognizing the continual need for some responsible and diplomatic individual to be always placed in leadership of a project, so that conflict resolution can happen quickly and diplomatically without festering into persisting irrational and emotional disputes. posted by James Carroll on User:James Carroll 11:35, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
In the best of all possible Wiki-worlds, there would be a metric which weighed each editor's beneficial contributions to the project against their non-beneficial ones. Editors with a high WikiQ would be rewarded with more user rights and their opinions would carry more weight in discussions; they would also get a correspondingly greater "benefit of the doubt" when conflicts arise. On the other hand, editors who are, essentially, free-loaders, who spend all their time talking and debating and don't contribute productively would be warned when they reach a certain level of non-productivity, and kicked out when they didn't straighten up and fly right. Note that this is different from banning and blocking on the basis of misbehavior, I'm talking about making "pulling one's weight" a pillar of the place.
That's all fantasy, and, of course, will never happen, but I do think it illustrates my take on how I feel editors should be dealt with when they, as you say, suck up too many community resources. I've long been concerned that Wikipedia may be an example of the Tragedy of the Commons, and that we're in danger of destroying what is most important to us simply by not taking steps to protect it. posted on User talk:Beyond My Ken 18:44, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia beats it out of you - the fun, the enjoyment, the pleasure of editing, improving, creating.
When I first made an account here, I used my real name. I thought that was important, that hiding behind a false name in some way belittled the importance of the project. How could people take an encyclopedia seriously when it was edited by "Horse Faced Harry" or "Bandits at 12:00" or whatever? So I used my real name, and my user page was chock full of things that were important to me in my life: my work, my accomplishments, my first computer, my first online services, the books I read and the music I listened to and the films I liked.
Of course, predictably, it got used against me. I was harassed and hounded, and the information I had shared was utilized ro plant false information which was then used against me in a dispute. I tried to get away from the harassment by changing names, got caught, got blocked, and got let off. I'm not complaining about that, I shouldn't have done it, and I'm grateful that I was allowed to continue editing. Of course, I wouldn't have had to do it if there was a reasonable process to deal with harassment and hounding, but there wasn't. There still isn't. It's still much easier for one editor to hound another then it is to prove that the hounding is going on, and harder still to get anyone to do anything about it.
Just like it's easier to wield the banhammer than it is to actually dive in and try to understand what's going on, and sort out the wheat from the chaff, to see who's actually trying to improve an article, and who's just editing on reflex, like a robot, without thought or contemplation, just crossing Ts and dotting Is without ever considering whether perhaps other letters ought to be there in the first place. Nope, the BOOK says you gotta do it this way, and to hell with IAR, it's only a pillar. So the hardliners keep their lines hard, and those trying to bring in a little air, to make sure this project is a living, breathing, evolving entity get the shaft.
Not every time, of course. As in any collection of people, the admins here probably fit a normal bell curve, or maybe because they're essentially self-selected and then thinned out the curve is probably skewed a bit to the front, which is why my experience is that the admin corps is, overall, pretty good; it's certainly not as bad as some make it out to be. But there are bad admins, and there are sloppy admins, and there are lazy admins, and there are admins who don't have the temperment or character to be an admin, and there are even admins who are just perilously close to being bad people.
But, as I wrote to one of the Wikipedians I think highly of of earlier today, it wasn't an admin's fault that I was blocked - they were just the agent. It was my fault. But not necessarily because I "edit-warred" (a concept which really should be closely re-examined) but because I should have known better.
I am, I say without false modesty, a very smart guy. I'm also a pretty old guy, almost 60, and I work in a field in which the exploration of emotions, motivations and the meaning of words and behavior is constantly ongoing. All of this means that I'm petty damn good at "reading" people, knowing what they're feeling, and why they're doing what they're doing. Of course, in an online environment like this, most of the cues which help one to make that evaluation are missing. One only has words, which few people really know how to use effectively and with precision, and a few feeble emotional indicators such as emoticons and <grins> and such. Still, even with most of one's senses cut-off, it's possible to get a read on the personalities of the editors here, when one has contact with them over a period of time. What I did was to forget what I knew about some of those editors, and based my actions on logic and reason and what's best for the article (which I, essentially, wrote), and it bounced back, right in my face.
I'm a smart guy, but I'm human, I fuck up.
But if Wikipedia wasn't set up to be a dog-eat-dog community (and yes, I know that the idea was that it was to be a civil and collegial community, but the harsh reality is that if you don't have an institutional framework that forces people to treat each other well, many of them are going to act like assholes - something that libertarians have never understood) - if it wasn't as "red in tooth and claw" as it is, there would have been nothing to fuck up, or, rather, the consequences would have been less stark. If the system wasn't such that hardliners can get away with murder, while those who want to use a little imaginative thinking end up swimming upstream against a hard current (yeah, mixed metaphors, I don't care), then it wouldn't have happened either.
OK, it wasn't exactly the perfect storm, but a number of elements did have to align: the systemic bias, their behavior, my not being smart about how to deal with their behavior, and a lazy admin.
So... so what? A 24 hour block, not exactly a big deal. It gave me a break, got me some sleep I needed. Not exactly a net positive, but not all bad. So why the geschrying?
Well, it's just another thing, another of the little things that grind you down. Like the admin some years ago who after I reverted something one time, came on my talk page and told me if I reverted again, he would block me. No explanation of why, just a confirmation that he was serious. Of course, he's armed and I am not, so I had to do what he said. I don't even recall if what I did was valuable enough that it would have been worth another revert. (There's that concept of "edit-warring" again, gotta fix that.) I was just... taken aback, nonplussed. I don't even think I had edited the article before, and wham "If you make a move, mister, I'm gonna blow off your head."
It all grinds you down, beats the fun out of you, makes it harder and harder to enjoy being here. Of course, you can't actually stop, it's addictive. (And when I wrote, saracastically, that Jimbo would burn in hell for creating such an addictive thing, some idiot actually demanded that I apologize for the remark - I can still feel the grinding from that episode every time I see the editor's name. So you learn to try to stay away from certain names, not to rub up against them, but then they always seem to be around, getting in the way, making things unpleasant, grind, grind grind, grind. Some of them are even good editors, but they're just too damn toxic for words.)
So, like any good addict, I'm back, and it's unlikely I'll be going away any time soon. But I probably won't enjoy it as much. I'll try and force myself to stay away from the places where the jerks hang out (which, unfortunately, is one of the places I like to go -- grind, grind, grind), and I'll try to be smarter and not get myself blocked again, but it's undeniable that I'm a bit sadder, 24 hours later, kind of melancholy.
I guess I've just had too much of the fun beat out of me. posted on User talk:Beyond My Ken 22:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
When notable cultural artifacts, or particular distinctive human activities, are used as significant elements in notable fiction and other notable cultural phenomena, then a discussion of them is encyclopedic. All that is necessary is to show that the activity or artifact is used in a significant way, and this can be appropriately referenced to the work directly.
These references are needed, but they can be supplied. Any of the items that are not significant can be removed after discussion of the talk page of the article. Such a list is not indiscriminate, for it discriminates in 3 ways: the artifact, the notable work, and the significant use. Indiscriminate would be including every appearance whatsoever in any fictional work, however non-notable the work. But that is not the case here. There is no problem with WP:V, for the items are attributable--if it is challenged in good faith that the artifact is not in the work mentioned, that does have to be demonstrated. There is no problem with LIST, because more than the bare facts are given. posted on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock in popular culture 02:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that we, as a community, have a good handle on how to deal with young editors. We've got WP:CIR, of course, but that's most often used as a reason for blocking, and there's very little that can be done before it reaches that stage, because, in general, we insist on treating all editors the same, as responsible adults, even when its clear that this is not the case. (I'm speaking in the abstract here, not particularly talking about ZackDickens12 and this minor incident.) It's somewhat reminiscent of the WMF's refusal to see that not requiring registration, and allowing IP editing, is, overall, a detriment to the project, and that much vandalism and quasi-sockpuppetry (editors with accounts logging out to avoid scrutiny) would be eliminated if they changed their policy to something reasonable, like pretty much every other website on the Net.
Anyway, I'm rambling - my point is that it would be nice to have a way to deal with young editors somewhat differently than adult editors, other than the informal things that have grown up over time, such as the "Not Now" closing of [a young editor's inappropriate] RfA. If there were systemic restrictions on their editing, and they understood that when they began, then it wouldn't seem so punitive to have curmudgeons like myself wagging their finger at them. As it is now, by assuming from the beginning that all editors are going to behave like responsible adults, the negative response to childish misbehavior is magnified; and by the time it becomes clear that the behavior is childish because a child is behind the keyboard, everyone's already a bit put out, and inclined to be harsher than they (I) probably should be. posted on User talk:Writ Keeper 17:51, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
[W]e should be careful not to glorify and enable banned editors who try to circumvent the will of the community by calling them "puppet masters" or "puppeteers". No, they are simply banned editors, and as such are pitiful [and pitiable] people, without honor and without shame at their behavior. They should ask themselves: if my parents knew how I behaved on Wikipedia, would they be proud of me? If my brothers and sisters were aware, would they pat me on the back and congratulate me? If my children saw what I do, would I be setting the best example for them? Perhaps if more banned editors were to actually think about what they are doing and how they are behaving, there might be less socking. Maybe not, if they are mostly self-centered egotists and sociopaths - but some of them must be normal people, simply led astray by circumstances and carried away by emotions. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kumioko 23:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Although [Editor X] is, technically, an editor of Wikipedia, it has been a long time since he has been a contributor in any meaningful sense. He is, in fact, a free-rider, using Wikipedia as a debating club and a social experiment for his own political and philosophical concerns. I'm sure he believes that his behavior is useful to the project in some fashion, but we have far, far too many [Editor X]s around here, and would do well to redirect their energies into actually improving the encyclopedia; if that's not possible, they should be gotten rid of.
One step towards redirecting them would be to start eliminating some of the large number of places which enable these folks to shirk actual editing in favor of social engineering. Another might be to institute some sort of quid pro quo whereby participation in those forums is dependent on a certain level of encyclopedia improvement.
Certainly, what we should not be doing is rewarding the free-riders' lack of value to the project by taking them seriously when they unnecessarily cause problems for editors who actually contribute to the encyclopedia. When real contributors disagree with other real contributors, those are conflicts which deserve the energy and attention of the community to resolve; when free-riders like [Editor X] are in conflict with real contributors, they should not expect to be given the time of day, which just encourages further shirking. posted on User talk:Dangerous Panda 05:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
There were two things I saw in your behaviour and one of which is really coming through in this section - that's a total lack of flexibility. You seem to be very hung up on the "Rules" of wikipedia - but Wikipedia does not have "firm" rules. One of our rules is to ignore the other ones if there is a benefit to the encyclopedia! That's not to say that people should run amok, but policy describes how the situation was when it was written - and it's not written in stone. Much more important than what is written down in "policy" is consensus of individuals, the collaboration of real people. Now, in my opinion, the way forward is not to focus on whether or not [an admin's] removals were justified by policy (the so called "WP:WIKILAWYER" approach) and more on why he and others felt that your comments were inappropriate. posted by User:Worm That Turned on User talk:EEng 08:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
[N]on-adherence to WP:MOS is irrelevant: the MOS frequently needs to be ignored, and following it is frequently a bad idea. posted by User:Nyttend on AN/I 12:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
It's because of assholes who harass people at will, and admins who are too lazy to take action on it, or who agree with the asshole's political views.
It's a culture where the social media aspect of Wikipedia is more important than creating content.
It's an institution that is slowly dying, from self-inflicted wounds, from allowing children to be admins to allowing mindless obedience to rules to be more important than content.
It is an organization where the janitor is more important and powerful than the writers. Where the copyeditors carry more weight than the people creating the content.
That's why Wikipedia is losing both editors and admins. It is why it is going to continue to do so.
I'm done. posted by User:GregJackP on User talk:GregJackP 06:36, 23 September 2015