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Hi again Jim,
Thanks again for your comments. They are once again very helpful in identifying for me the things that Wikipedia does and does not do. I also have a good understanding and appreciation now too of your policies, regulations, standards, etc.
I am now going to respond briefly to your comments.
1. About notability you said that " Although I have not looked into the matter in great detail, I will accept for the sake of discussion that Jean Jepson is notable. The tribute event that you mention can be included only if it was covered in reliable, independent sources."
My response is that the story of Jean Jepson and the early Vancouver Dance Community is notable to a specific interest group, namely the community of dance lovers, and in particular to the Vancouver dance community. Is this story notable to non-dance lovers. No, not at all.
At the public tribute event held last year there were two shows and the total audience was about 500 people. I had the opportunity to speak to many of the guests because they wanted to see the pictures and stories in the scrapbook that I was displaying. Everyone who looked at the scrapbook very interested in the stories.
You say that mention can be included only if it was covered in reliable independent sources. The tribute event is mentioned in the scrapbook which is an independent reliable source, namely me. This event was presented and produced by the West Coast Tap Collective (the association of Tap Dance studios and organizations in the Vancouver area). I am not part of that organization. I was an objective witness and I wrote down exactly what took place.
2. About the photo you said that " Wide distribution and recollections of the wishes of the subject of a photo have nothing whatsoever to do with whether a photo is acceptable for use on Wikipedia. That type of argument is unpersuasive to experienced editors. All images used on Wikipedia must comply with our strict image use policies. There are no exceptions to those policies. "
The photo image that I have posted in the draft is not a copyright item. It is the kind of photo that people take every day and share widely every day. It seems to me that your arguments above are legal protections for copyright items.
I am a dancer and I do a lot of public dancing and people very frequently take photos and videos of me while I am dancing and then post them widely on social media. This is all done freely, no questions asked and no objections made. It seems to me that the sharing of Jean's photos is identical to the sharing of my photos. I do a lot of performing in the arts and we take great delight in sharing our photos as widely as possible.
3.Regarding the scope you said " You can rewrite your draft as you see fit. However, you are moving from the difficult task of writing a biography of one notable dancer/choreographer to the vastly more difficult task of writing a broad historical article. Personally, I do not think that is a good idea, but the decision is yours. "
This idea to broaden the scope beyond Jean Jepson and include other notable figures came from discussions with you and your colleagues. It was not my original intent but it seemed like a very good idea. But this detailed work has already been done and is fully detailed in the scrapbook. The purpose of the article would be to summarize and present a very brief history and then point readers to the scrapbook for further details.
4. ISBN numbers. This item is fully settled.
5. Regarding providing page numbers with ALL references you suggested that " It should always be possible to include the page numbers, and you can include a complex page number field like "pages 9, 11, 15-17, 34-39, 62, 81-94". If you rely on two sources, use two references. An unpublished scrap book is not a reliable source and should not be used on Wikipedia. If you want to point people to additional sources, then these must be published reliable sources with professional editorial control. "
It seems to be that your suggestions are very well suited for "Academic" type articles. However the article that I want to publish is of a completely different type. It would probably fall under the heading of "Popular Culture" or something like that. When I was in university pursuing undergraduate and graduate studies of course we had to provide detailed footnotes, reference sources, age numbers, etc. Modern Popular Culture s completely different world. I have shown the scrapbook to many people, and all the reference sources are listed in there. Not a single person ever even looked at the sources. They were only interested in the pictures and the accompanying text.
6. Regarding your concluding comments " Your concluding remark indicates that you may not fully understand Wikipedia's purpose. We are not a place for publishing original research about a historical topic. It is not Wikipedia's role to capture, organize and write down that history. That should be done through writing and publishing newspaper, magazine and historical journal articles, and books by respected publishers. Wikipedia summarizes what is already published. We do not publish fresh research. Excitement of interested people is fine, but excitement is no substitute for compliance with our policies and guidelines. "
Some of the project team members and I did conduct some original research. We interviewed dancer, dance teachers, and dance historians who were knowledgeable of the early years and individuals of the Vancouver Dance Community. Their contributions have been summarized in the scrapbook. I was merely trying to use Wikipedia to summarize some of the more interesting aspects of the story and to use it as a gateway to the more detailed story contained in the scrapbook.
My discussions with you were very refreshing Jim and I kept an open mind and I have benefited from the perspectives that you offered. I am going to ask the same of you on one point. You mention above the link between Wikipedia and "publishing newspaper, magazine and historical journal articles, and books by respected publishers". Scrapbooks of course do not have any place in your world but for what we are trying to do, which is to tell this story, it is working out quite well. Scrapbooks are an old-fashioned tradition and it seems that it still is a terrific way to show and tell people an interesting story. We (the project team) were not trying to publish a story but we found that in doing our research that we had amassed quite a bit of valuable knowledge of the Vancouver dance history, much of it previously widely dispersed and unable to be found in online searches. So we simply wanted to organize it and share it with all interested dance lovers.
My last comment is about the "Excitement of interested people is fine, but excitement is no substitute for compliance with our policies and guidelines." These archivists are excited because they can appreciate the value of adding the stories in the scrapbook to the National Archives Collection. I thought that this would clearly demonstrate the "notability" of this story. It seems to me that their endorsement validates all the work that we have done.
Well those are all the comments that I have to make about the Jean Jepson Draft Article. I do have an observation to share with you about some of the Wikipedia pages that I researched in doing this project. I looked up several dancers, teachers, choreographers on Wikipedia and some of these people did have pages. Many of the pages that came up however, although they have complied with your policies, criteria, standards, etc. seem to be woefully lacking in substance and interest. After having read them it seemed to me that I learned very little. I also followed some of their internal (i.e. other Wikipedia pages) external links and the same thing happened frequently. Nothing useful at the other end. So yes they complied fully with the rules and regulations but they seemed to be of very little or no value whatsoever.
Jim I have made a decision that I am going to withdraw my article and use other online sources to inform interested parties of this story. It seems that Wikipedia is not the ideal place for a project like mine.
Thank you very much for all your help and time.
Peter CableHut (talk) 07:15, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello Jim,
Just responding to your last comment "Hello CableHut. If you are not going to be writing a Wikipedia article, then I am not sure why you bothered with the point by point comments. If you change your mind and want to write a Wikipedia article which complies with our policies and guidelines, then please let me know. Until then, I wish you well."
I responded point by point because we have been having a detailed discussion involving different but valid points of view and I wanted to provide some feedback for the decision. I did not want to just walk away without any explanation.
Wikipedia has its own way of doing things with a strong focus on policies and guidelines that seem to exclude a lot of other possibilities. I have a vibrant story to tell about one of the creative arts and those Wikipedia rules and regulations seem to strip it of its vibrancy. I am not asking Wikipedia to reconsider or to change anything about the way it operates. Wikipedia has its own way of doing things. Initially I thought that Wikipedia would be an ideal way to attract interested parties to the story but it has not turned out that way.
That's all. Cheers! CableHut (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
You're good at ones like this, I think. I believe it's a very substantial organization. Could you possibly take a look? --doncram 20:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
With all due respect, you may not be highly informed on this area. I have a PhD in epidemiology, am an HIV specialist, and I can tell you that the scientific evidence is rock solid. Stronger than global warming because it is based on large randomized controlled trials. Please read the section on Circumcision where the evidence is well described. Given the fact that the article on Unicirc is about a surgical instrument, the editor who added the comment should take it up with that author, not the Unicirc section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 17:43, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Do you have medical editors? PLease review Circumcision and HIV
Thanks. I am assuming that the discussion is complete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 20:08, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Agreed 100% and they all are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 11:28, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
FYI from James: We have excellent studies supporting the us of circumcision for the prevention of HIV/AIDS in Africa. If you notice a place on Wikipedia that says differently please notify me. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:25, 9 February 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Rafael Díez de la Cortina y Olaeta. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
I would like to offer you some feeback and I hope you can accept in the constructive manner that it is intended. None of us are subject matter experts in every area. If we are out of our area of expertise, it is best for us to fall back "I don't know" and send the query to someone who does, rather than wing it. Sincerely, Peter Millard — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 19:19, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The last Wednesday evening of every month, wiki enthusiasts gather at Bay Area WikiSalon to collaborate, mingle, and learn about new projects and ideas.
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The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Tomas Gorny. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Jim, Since you asked, the article which I think diverges from "the truth as defined by the net of all reliable sources" is deflategate. I have considerable expertise in the topic and a past history of successful, enduring edits on it.
I'd kind of gone dormant because wikipedia blocked the range of IP's that included my home due to some IP user very badly and repeatedly misbaving, limiting my work to public places (which aren't handy around here). That finally go fixed, although I didn't know it when I started the below.
This go-around I went bold on a significant change: highlighting "scientific consensus" that the data exonerated the Patriots, backed by the New York Times, Washington Post, Yahoo Sports, a signed statement from 21 scientists from 10 universities across the country, embedded in a (regrettably) a Huffington Post URL, although the same content is in other sources. There's also a supportive 60 minutes Sports segment. The Washington post indicates having verified that if there are dissenting opinions, they are hard to find.
A couple folks weighed in with their view that exoneration is preposterous and guilt is a no-brainer (except to biased folksP). The references were reverted out, rather than refined or clarified.
I'm okay with the idea that, even though the sources claimed "consensus", that in wikipedia, "scientific consensus" should have a special, more rigorous meaning. So I was amenable to an indication of informal consensus, or majority opinion, or just saying that major nationally recognized non-Patriots-area reliable sources claim most scientists agree that the data exonerates. But alas,that was shot down.
Then things got surreal. Eventually someone even claimed that a statement the editor found disagreeable in the Washington Post article means that the article comes across as biased (apparently in favor of the Washignton Redskins rival (the Patriots), and apparently biased against the opinion that most Washington Post readers in their core market likely believed and wanted to believe. Calling the New York Times article "biased" is even more odd given the New England Patriots/New York Jets rivalry and that the Times first published a scathing "Science works against the Patriots" article before later completely reversing that view in a new article.
Even more nonsensical, the editor even indicated that the sources above are not qualified as a respected minority (fringe theory) or even more amazingly, that they aren't even qualified as evidence that some people annoyed at the NFL might think like the Times, Post, Yahoo and others think. That also means the editor presumes nearly nobody believes the Times, Post, or Yahoo Sports.
Any attempt at an orderly discussion seems to lead to opinions offered without citation (and in one case original work regarding the application of PV=nRT that not only disagrees with the scientists but also even the NFL's position). That "teachable moment" met with a "to time, TR;DR, wall-of-text" kind of response. Result: the whole discussion gets declared a rathole.
An orderly presentation of ideas is blocked because, as the editor points out, editors watch thousands of pages and don't have time do more than just check sources. If they'd done only that, my bold edit would have stood.
Having been shown that responding to non-source-policy based discussion leads to rat holes, I took up the process issue with an editor, who didn't enter into a process discussion or clarification and didn't budge. The editor suggested ANI and I shared a possible draft of it. The editor suggested I'd get hammered in the ANI but wouldn't explain to me why, but as you can see, I think I've figured it out.
I'm very concerned with the USA becoming unable to tell fact from nonsense. I've been on that kick in various ways for years. I'd hoped wikipedia was the solution, whereas reddit is not. The official processes seem designed such that Wikipedia should be, but the reality seems to be falling short -- criticisms that wikipedia is opinion seem justified if this the defacto process is so different than the stated one. If Wikipedia can reliable deliver clarity to topics of some controversy, it's not the solution to the worlds problem with digesting facts.
Seems that this is a good test case. Can you, or someone else you can refer me to, invest the time to sort it out, and maybe help me craft an essay that helps people avoid the apparent misperceptions about policy?Rob Young in New Hampshire (talk) 04:16, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Hey Cullen-- I think you accidentally removed my reply when responding to a recent Teahouse question. I'm going to place it back in, if that's OK. I JethroBT drop me a line 18:46, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 6 p.m.
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Hi Jim, and thanks for the response. I agree with what you said. Guy's rather heated response tells me I struck a nerve regarding this article. But I would never purposely put "junk" into the article. I have not read any of Shaw's books. I read a 2007 Midwest Today article by Sara Jordan that I cited as my source, which is corroborated by the video-taped interviews of the various persons connected with the case, including the hair-dresser that found Dorothy's body. This is considered to be credible evidence in a court of law. And it is clearly relevant to the article. I have no affiliation whatsoever with Mark Shaw. But what sets his latest book apart from the others is the video-taped evidence. From my review of Wikipedia's definition of "reliable, published sources", my cited source was clearly "published". And I saw no reason to doubt its reliability because it was corroborated by the said video-taped evidence. So I did not breach any Wikipedia policy. As for "fringe" content, that cannot apply here, because there is credible supporting evidence.
In the future, I will consult the history page before making edits. That was a procedural error on my part. But perhaps a better approach for potentially controversial articles would be to not allow any direct editing, but rather to use a submission process for proposed edits. Regardless, I am hesitant to make future edits to any article. I feel I have been denied my "voice". There's no way that every word of my edits was in violation of Wikipedia policy. And yet every word was summarily deleted. That seems to be putting one extreme policy in place of another. I am respectful of your duty to protect the integrity of Wikipedia. But in my opinion the article is misleading as to the circumstances of her death, such that the reader is not properly informed. Thanks for listening. TubesUntil (talk) 11:36, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Ty Law. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
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Dear Jim Thank you for you much appreciated feedback on the article I'm trying to get approved on Peter Mylonas...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Peter_Mylonas. I hope you don't mind me asking, (as I'm still a little confused).. You said that "Your draft claims that his father played "a prominent role model in his son's life and an avid supporter of his life-long karate journey", but who says that praise is true?" but when I read other articles, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gichin_Funakoshi, also a karate person, it states that Funakoshi "introduced karate to the Japanese mainland in 1922"...How do we know this is also true? There's no reference? Another example is the article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%8Dgen_Yamaguchi that states " He was one of the most well-known karate-dō masters from Japan and he founded the International Karate-dō Gōjū Kai Association.[5]" but the reference goes back to his own Wikipedia page, so not very reliable. These are only two of many examples I have come across while doing research for the page I wish to publish on Mylonas. Ive been told that "That is not the neutral language of an encyclopedia article" and that words like "avid" and "leading karate expert" are not objective, however in other people's posts, I have come across sweeping statements such as "avid poet" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gichin_Funakoshi) - again no reference, "He was one of the most well-known karate-dō masters" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%8Dgen_Yamaguchi), "He alone was primarily responsible for the spread of Gōjū-ryū throughout the world" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%8Dgen_Yamaguchi), "he found that Karate was not strong compared to Judo," (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiji_Soeno), "He helped Bruce Lee gain national attention" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Parker). These are just a few examples. Again, my apologies for questioning you, but I'd really like to understand this issue. Thanking you in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HoundDog17 (talk • contribs) 01:01, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi there, thanks for the quick reply on Teahouse and as you said to start a discussion, help me out to create a article that meets the wikipedia standards. thanks! TripuraKnowledge (talk) 03:32, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2017).
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Richard B. Spencer. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
dear jim, i thank you for giving me the information for my question ask my question. But i tried it it didnt work. Can you please gimme a link to this page ? Thank you once again..
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Sebastian Gorka. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Shalom, Thank you for your edits on Yeshivat Shaare Torah. In respect of them I withdrew my nomination for deletion and find the article does now teach me something as opposed to before. →ὦiki-Coffee
(talk to me!) (contributions) 03:31, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Martin Indyk. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Added an article that needs completed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitronic which has now been marked for speedy deletion? It does not look like promotion, it is clarifying a tradename that is mentioned in another article. Contributor1972 (talk) 05:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, I have saved a copy to sandbox. The encyclopedia already references it, but it's use is without trademark. I had no idea it would flag a work in progress so quickly. I finished a stub a few days ago and it went right in with just one reference.Contributor1972 (talk) 05:35, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks so much for your patience. Added references for the information now in composition table. Hopefully that is enough to have it qualify to not be deleted and maybe for [Category:Named Alloys]. Contributor1972 (talk) 06:25, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Well I think Nitronic is all I want it to be now. Added more book references for notability. I thought it would make a good addition to the Category of Named alloys, unless that is an unapproved Category. If the article it is deleted, should I ask on AK Steel page to add the content there? I'd hate to have spent all this time on something that would just end up in the digital trash.Contributor1972 (talk) 17:59, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Jim, Thank you for your edits (and time). I had not realized there was a template for citations. It made it almost easy after learning the format it wanted. I should probably look at the draft Corporate citations to see how bad those look now. On a side note, I looked at editing from a phone today. Kudos to you - You deserve a Barnstar for editing by phone!Contributor1972 (talk) 23:22, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes. There is a lesson here, and that is that no amount of self-persuasion by a conflict of interest editor is a substitute for real work by a real neutral editor. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
One question though, how come Electralloy got the extra best citation I've ever seen? Am I in conflict again, or is it just jealousy? rhetorical Contributor1972 (talk) 03:33, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Joe Scarborough. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
The last Wednesday evening of every month, wiki enthusiasts gather at Bay Area WikiSalon to collaborate, mingle, and learn about new projects and ideas. This month we are meeting at Noisebridge makerspace/hackerspace in the Mission near 16th Street BART (temporary change of venue). The good news is this means that you can bring spontaneous guests if you forget to RSVP!
We allow time for informal conversation and working on articles. Newcomers and experienced wiki users are encouraged to attend. Free Wi-Fi is available so bring your editing devices. We will have beverages (including beer and wine) plus light snacks.
If possible, please RSVP as it helps us figure out how much food and drink to bring in. For further details and to RSVP, please see: Wikipedia:Bay Area WikiSalon, March 2017
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I've created a page in my sandbox. I feel it is impartial and balanced. I have talked about the pros/cons of publishing this. I have not added logo or images, as I wasn't sure it would be accepted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Contributor1972/sandbox Just a review for now if you please. Contributor1972 (talk) 01:35, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
I'll work on citation placement and finding more sources. Does each fact require a citation? I see so many articles that do not have citations, or if there is one - it is corporate in nature. Most would be considered spam by other people. Is there anything I need to do with the sandbox, to keep it from being used?Contributor1972 (talk) 02:39, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Good man. Do you think there would be merit in creating a "senior Wikipedians" project or caucus or whatever? Given the age range here, I think anyone over 40 might qualify. OK, maybe 55, the AARP age. Coretheapple (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Donald Trump. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
The Copyeditor's Barnstar | |
Jim, thanks for all your help. Saving an article from deletion and tirelessly reviewing another that some were saying didn't belong. Contributor1972 Discuss with me 02:15, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
Details and to RSVP: Wikipedia:Bay Area WikiSalon, March 2017 (optional, but helpful for food and special needs accommodations)
We are meeting at Noisebridge makerspace/hackerspace (temporary venue change) near 16th ST BART in SF.
See you soon! Co-coordinators Ben Creasy and Wayne
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