Hello User:Pathawi, I hope this message finds you well and hope you're doing good. I'm messaging regarding the creation or possible recreation of an article related to ethnic groups who speak Cushitic languages. I noticed that in a previous AfD discussion, you nominated an article called Cushitic peoples for deletion which subsequently was deleted over six months ago. Despite the six month rule, I submitted a deletion review (see here: [[1]]). I added multiple sources on the review showing that the term 'Cushitic' is used in academic literature quite often reflecting both a linguistic categorisation and a ethnic categorisation of the ethnic groups who speak Cushitic languages as the term is quite well known in DNA/genetics literature that is also present. You can see the sources on the deletion review. I have a lot more sources, but for fear of elongation I did not submit.
I do completely understand that the previous Cushitic peoples page was very unprofessionally written and there were many questions regarding WP: RELIABILITY and this is the reason why I don't want to create any article which will be controversial or be subject to another AfD. So I wanted to ask you if there is anything controversial or that you would deem problematic with a new article? My intention is to have pages similar to Bantu peoples, Germanic peoples, Slavic peoples etc but with much more rigour in terms of sources. My intention is to only use academic literature in the sources therefore it would be professionally done. However I do not want to move forward without your two cents.
Wadamarow (talk) 12:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Hi User:Pathawi
I pinged the administrator who deleted the page and she didn't respond. I had no issues with pinging you but they made it very clear to me that the deletion review was not the place to have long winded discussions. Having said that, I don't mind continuing this discussion in another capacity in any other arbitration setting. I personally do not see any hindrance or issue with having a Wikipedia page dedicated to ethnic groups who speak Cushitic languages as the encyclopedia has many similar pages but I do acknowledge that others may not hold the same view.
Wadamarow (talk) 15:16, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Hi User:Austronesier and User:Pathawi
Firstly I want to send my condolences to User: Pathawi, I'm very sorry to hear about your father. I wish him good health and a speedy recovery despite it being described as terminal. I pray he is well and I do apologise if I came off as insensitive in any way.
I believe that the main issue here is Cushitic as a macro-ethnicity/ethnicity. If that's the case, would it be ok and would it be fine to create a page called Cushitic speaking peoples with no reference to a macro ethnicity called Cushitic peoples?
Thank you both for your contributions, I really appreciate the amount of information and beneficial content. Just so that I can put my own point across, allow me to delve into some of the points User: Austronesier mentioned category by category.
1. Regarding terminologies, the academic literature uses language which is both particular and universal, although I do agree with you that sometimes "Cushitic peoples" is used merely to describe those ethnic groups that are Cushitic speakers, there is also plenty of evidence to show that it is used to describe ethnicities. For example: Laura B. Scheinfeldt, Sameer Soi et al (2019) Genomic evidence for shared common ancestry of East African hunting-gathering populations and insights into local adaptation. See link here: ([[2]]) in the section of Selection Scan Population Groupings, it states: "When we grouped two or more population samples, we used shared ethno-linguistic affiliations among the included population samples to refer to these population groupings in the text (SI Appendix, Table S2)."
You said "nothing else characterizes Cushitic peoples except for the shared linguistic affiliation." This study states that although some studies do use Cushitic peoples/ancestry as a shorthand for Cushitic peoples, a homogeneous and unique Cushitic ancestry has been established. It clarifies that exact point. The link to the study is here: ([[3]]). It states: "The only previously observed ancestry not present in this set of 21 was ancestry predominantly found in Cushitic-speaking peoples from East Africa, which we subsequently refer to in shorthand as Cushitic ancestry. Given that Cushitic ancestry has been detected before." Although the terminology can be used for a more universal general shorthand meaning, that's not the only use.
2. Although there are more specialised focused studies on specific subsets of Cushitic speaking peoples, this doesn't necessitate that Cushitic speaking peoples do not share any genetic affiliation and traits more common to them as a whole. For example, in this study: Hollfelder N, Schlebusch CM, Gu¨nther T, Babiker H, Hassan HY, Jakobsson M (2017) Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations (link here: ([[4]]). It states: "The Beni Amer also showed a strong admixture signal with a Eurasian population as well as a shared ancestry com- ponent with the Somali population (pink component in Fig 2)". This is an example of a North Cushitic ethnic group (Beja) sharing ancestry component with an Eastern Cushitic ethnic group (Somali) and there are more examples. Although, you are absolutely right that there could be shared ancestry between Cushitic and non Cushitic populations, there are many reasons why this happened that is mentioned clearly in the literature. For example, the Semitic speaking populations in the Horn of Africa being closely genetically related to the Cushitic speaking populations (Hodgson: 2014). This was a situation of native ethnic groups adopting languages that were not native such as the Agaw adopting the Amharic language. But having said that, in this study: Hassan, Hisham Y.; Underhill, Peter A.; Cavalli-Sforza, Luca L.; Ibrahim, Muntaser E. (2008), "Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History" (PDF), American Journal of Physical Anthropology, link here: ([[5]]) the study states that there is a correlation in genetic and linguistics in establishing a strong relationship between Beja and other Cushitic speaking peoples in the Horn of Africa.
3. I think the same points mentioned about the usage of Cushitic peoples would apply here. Although I should mention that Cushitic (with a C) in more modern literature is mainly used to speak about the ethnic groups who speak Cushitic languages. There have been different usages before about ancient communities aswell.
5. You're absolutely right in that they have been used in debating points relating to ancestry and tying it to the expansion of Cushitic languages, but that fails to mention established genetic Cushitic ancestry. Such as you can find here here: Shriner D, Tekola-Ayele F, Adeyemo A, Rotimi CN.. (2016) Ancient human migration after Out-of-Africa. It states: "A notable exception is Cushitic ancestry, which did not form by a splitting event but rather by a mixing event between Arabian ancestry and Nilo-Saharan or Omotic ancestry." Link here: ([[6]]). So Cushitic is an ethno and linguistic classification.
Although I agree with most of your points, I feel that we are overlapping points and interpreting them differently although we may agree on many points.
Having said that, if we agree that Cushitic peoples are defined by ethnic groups who speak Cushitic languages or they are related ethnic groups. Does this disqualify the creation of an article if it was clearly mentioned that it's describing ethnic groups and not a macro ethnicity?
Regarding pan Slavic identity, I don't know how that would make it more notable as an identity because the Slavic peoples page isn't used to promote identity politics. The page simply describes the different ethnic groups that speak Slavic languages. Regarding the Germanic peoples page you're absolutely right. But there is also another page called Germanic-speaking Europe which speaks about the peoples who speak Germanic languages which is exactly what I wanted to do for Cushitic speaking peoples.
My proposal:
If there is a page speaking about Cushitic speaking peoples, with detailed information about the specific ethnic groups and not presenting them as a macro-ethnicity, would there be any problem with that? So let's say a page similar to Germanic-speaking Europe. So Cushitic speaking peoples with NO mention of Cushitic as an ethnicity, but as a category of Cushitic speaking ethnic groups. Would that be ok? I feel like most of the points of disagreement would be gone here. Let me know your thoughts.
Wadamarow (talk) 20:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Hi User:Pathawi
This is what I had in mind. Please let me know your thoughts. So I don't want to create any page that refers to a Cushitic macro-ethnicity as we've already established. I want to create a page called: "Cushitic speaking peoples". The page would only and solely be dedicated to the ethnic groups that natively speak Cushitic languages. It would resemble something similar to this page: Germanic-speaking Europe.
So the title and first paragraph would look something like this:
Cushitic speaking peoples
Cushitic speaking peoples refer to the ethnic groups who speak Cushitic languages as a native language.
So I want to emphasize that there will be absolutely no mentioning of any macro-ethnicity which was the main point of contention in the deleted article. It's purely a page dedicated to the ethnic groups that speak Cushitic languages.
Let me know your thoughts.
Wadamarow (talk) 23:44, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Hi User:Pathawi
Thank you very much for your reply. No need to apologise, I completely understand the circumstances and I hope for the best in everything for you. Thank you very much once again, I really appreciate it! Regarding the proposed page, I have quite a number of sources that speak of Cushitic speakers specifically that would almost certainly avoid original research. If the proposed page becomes reality, then I will make sure to focus my work on it as to avoid any original research or any inclination towards the suggestion of a macro-ethnicity. I will focus on the ethnic groups specifically with maybe a focus on the history of the spread of Cushitic speakers in East Africa and the countries they inhabit etc. I'll be watching over the page to make sure there is no vandalism or misinformation. Please feel free to overlook and watch the page.
Wadamarow (talk) 18:57, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, I'll definitely do that. I'll keep you both posted with the draft. Although the page will be a work in progress, I don't envisage it would necessarily ever be 'complete'. So I'll ping you on the skeleton and let me know what you think. I would probably continue the process of improving it after publishing.
Wadamarow (talk) 22:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
User: Pathawi User: Austronesier
Here is a link to the draft:
[[7]]
I just wanted to mention that I quickly made this brief skeleton and draft. The main focus will be the history section and another section I'll be creating aswell. The introduction paragraph and the ethnic groups section is just extra added information about the ethnic groups. It's a work in progress, but I intend to take care of it and make sure that it's a protected page that avoids anything non factual. I want to focus on the the geography of the earliest Cushitic speakers and their migration patterns. Let me know your thoughts. Please fee free to add content, I'll be sourcing everything.
Wadamarow (talk) 20:19, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
User:Pathawi User: Austronesier
Just letting you know, I published the page, it was in draft for around 3 days. But I was quite happy with the skeleton so far. Please feel free to contribute to it. I'll be adding more sources and content regarding the history of Cushitic speakers and their migration and maybe some history about the earliest Cushitic speakers and their spread.
Wadamarow (talk) 20:42, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Please take another look at WP:REFACTOR and WP:TRUTH, as your recent post seems to miss your intended point. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi Pathawi, just wondering, do you know a good comprehensive source about the phonetics of Tajwīd (another article that would profit from your oversight)? There is a nice overview in Nelson, Kristina (2001). The Art of Reciting the Qur'an. Cairo; New York: American University in Cairo Press., but I wonder if there is something more in-depth, including an analysis of traditional terms (like hams, qalqala etc.) in a modern phonetic/phonological framework. Austronesier (talk) 19:49, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi, Your feedback is welcome here! Cheers, A455bcd9 (talk) 15:44, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi, there's a discussion around the Arabic dialect map here, regarding which sources to use and whether to rely entirely on Ethnologue. I'd love to hear your thoughts. High surv (talk) 14:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Please do not attack other editors, as you did at User talk:A455bcd9. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. M.Bitton (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi, Happy Thanksgiving! It's hard to follow discussions going on everywhere, but I thought you might be interested in Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Glottolog_unreliable_for_linguistics and Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Maps,_OR,_and_SYNTHESIS. Cheers, A455bcd9 (talk) 19:54, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
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I've deleted Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaeq00, per your request and correct refiling. DatGuyTalkContribs 06:33, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi Pathawi, how are you doing?
Have you seen these two new dictionaries? I thought you might be interested:
Best, a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:40, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Tamazirt (city), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Orthodox Church.
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hello User:Pathawi the Joshua project is not always accurate with their population estimates of different groups. Because it's a christian evangelical missionary website their population estimates and where they get these numbers from should not always be treated like they are accurate. When a person uses their website and reads these population estimates they should read with caution as there's still no research conducted on the number of Beja in Egypt. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
hello the source I cited was only which was from brittanica and it said there were 1 million speakers of the Beja language the other source I didn't add it it was already there I justed edited to include my source. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 16:47, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Why did you request for the file i added to be deleted and why was it deleted? I added the link to the website i had no idea that the picture belonged to a photographer named Agence. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 04:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Hello can you take me to an administrator who can delete 4 of my files I uploaded on wikipedia. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 02:54, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
I don't understand why you need to put Sunni Islam in Sudan. Sunni Islam is universal and there is nothing different or special about its practice in Sudan. Also I added those sources because one annoying user kept claiming the numbers and estimates put over there are vandalism even though they were cited before, and the source next to the Sunni Islam was a good source so I don't know why you removed it.Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 12:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
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Hello Pathawi I was thinking how about you use Ethnologue to find out the number of speakers of the Beja language. I cant access figures for number of speakers of the language on Ethnologue because I have not subscribed nor paid online on their website to access that. If you are subscribed to Ethnologue you can add the number of speakers of the Beja language. Thanks! Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 14:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Any update did you find a a recent estimate for number of speakers of the Beja language? Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
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Dear User, The information on the Kingdom of Aksum page is not remotely interested in facts other than to distort them. Incorrectly stating Ezana made Ge'ez the official language after Greek is not factual. The two scripts have always been used by side by side and should read 'Greek was used as a mercantile and diplomatic language' Ge'ez was already in use and fully formed by Ezana period. Then then use dubious quotes like the US printing office as a source. They have also written another one the Ethiopian Greeks where they make claims of an annexation of which there is no proof. Rania212 (talk) 15:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)