Hello, RAN1! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place ((helpme)) on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Closedmouth (talk) 12:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's sweet that you monitor so many things, but please be a little more alert to nuance. Calling someone a heroic lanky marmot is hardly a personal attack, more a response to someone calling the same person a miserable little weasel. Just so you know, when I call you an oaf it's not meant to be abusive (just so you know!). Regards, Ericoides (talk) 18:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I caught the lanky marmot part as sarcasm and considering those other two guys were making PAs I erred on the side of RPA. I'll be a bit more reserved about removing comments in the future. Thanks, RAN1 (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the ((proposed deletion/dated)) notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
I didn't actually notice that you'd already suspected in your edit summary that it might not be notable, glad you're taking the proposed deletion with good will. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also keep in mind that coming off as a self-styled one-man review board is also not helpful. Editors have egos, and the best way to piss them off en-masse is to explode onto the scene with blustery talk about "your review". You are not above other editors and I would suggest getting down into the trenches and editing with everyone else rather than proclaiming your wisdom from on high.
This... this was why I collapsed it. I could not do as I am used to and I cannot review it and expect something this complex to be replaced with my private draft either. He's right, I am not above you - we may mis-communicate, but you are working to correct the article and make it better. I halted my review of all the sources, and picked the low hanging fruit, but Vox is fine (I erred by calling it unreliable). Jbarta gave me some perspective. I haven't axed anything major, your opinion on Knafo may differ, but I added 3 sources (using 2 now) and started to put perspective on the Grand Jury matter. I mean, how was it missed that Ferguson is 2/3rds black and the St. Louis county is 70% white. Or that the sitting grand jury was not sequestered. We are still missing how they would have to vote to indict. Context, perspective and plain disinterested details - that is what policy states and its what I strive for. Here's a bit of a tip, Cwobeel thinks I am "defending" McCulloch because I rebuke the arguments - but doesn't realize that my criticism cuts deeper and to an indisputable core issue without attacking the person. Oh gosh, McCulloch may have a few new angles of criticism with the sourcing I referenced - it just won't be lengthy POV-pushing quotes. Disinterested facts do the job without getting nasty. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On a related note, check out Jamilah Nasheed. This is par for the course on some BLPs. The "2011 Lil' Wayne concert" is a section I'll let you handle if you want, but that is some Jerry Springer-type drama going on a biography. It may have happened, there is no real place for things like that or in such a way. It may be extreme, but that is why it tripped the BLP warning filter. I see the Michael Brown page exactly like you probably see that section - its embarrassing to have that on Wikipedia. Claiming it is reliably sourced doesn't change what it is and does - what if [Jamilah Nasheed read that and that this given more attention than anything else in office? It is shameful and it makes Wikipedia look bad - especially since it is all over mirror sites and comes up as the first result on Google when you search for her name. My choice - axe first, question later. But I'll let you get a chance at it so we can hypothetically play WP:BRD from the other side of the table. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shooting of John Crawford III until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WEASEL
The above named policy does not say "cops are weasels so we don't report their claims". Is that what you thought it said? If not, I am having trouble understanding your removal of the words "allegedly blocking traffic" which were based on Wilson's sworn grand jury testimony in which he said Brown and Dorian were blocking traffic, forcing both lanes of traffic into a single lane, meaning the cars had to pass around them one at a time, when Wilson stopped them. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)21:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"All of those shootings' grand jury results happened after the grand jury investigation on Wilson concluded no true bill..." this states they concluded. I know your intention, but your words stated they all had returned results. Harmless here, but the wordings do represent issues in articles. Funny, how it slips in. Right? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:14, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
December 2014
Hello, I'm ChamithN. I noticed that you recently removed some content from Shooting of Michael Brown without explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; I restored the removed content. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks!Chamith(talk)22:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisGualtieri: I agree. But I issued this notification because he failed to mention about BLP discussion in his last reversion. He just used sigh, here we go again as his edit summary. As it wasn't a good explanation I had to issue this notification. But I'm going to strike out this as he later explained it on my talk page. Regards.--Chamith(talk)07:54, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You should revert your edit and stop making accusations against user contributions as being under WP:FRINGE and falsely claiming a law professor or U.S District Court judge's statement as being within that realm. This "opinion" as you call it, is in a textbook and in case law - please stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You did not read the source very well then. Please, read it again because the same source makes the explanation three times, including spelling it out. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:19, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You asked for my explanation of the facepalm. Are you familiar with Kantian ethics? Aside from being a great example of WP:NPOV, it is also very much true to this situation for a number of reasons. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. You have no idea how sorry I am... but I don't think I can provide any better explanation then that under the circumstances. I hope you understand. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:51, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisGualtieri: I am familiar with Kantian ethics, but I believe where you and I differ is that while you believe it is a great example of NPOV, I believe it is a good reason to follow NPOV. Take that as you will. --RAN1 (talk) 04:01, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You must not be familiar with it if you gave me that answer. The mere mention under this circumstances usually provokes a very specific response. I am sorry, but your response has told me everything that I need to know now. If you were aware you would know Kant's maxim and the basis of Kant's morality arguments - and where that leads. Kant is layered and so was this response, the impenetrability of the logic behind it means what I feared. It is because I hold Kant's flawed logic in high regard that I hoped to show a transitive relation without actually spelling it out and leading into a perceived negativity spiral. To be concise and frank - we will not be able to work together. I'm so sorry. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you misunderstand and in essence revealed that you do not know what you think you know. According to Kant, the source of morality is intentionalism and lying is immoral regardless of whether the intent was good because of the Universality Test - but Kant's logic breaks down in these circumstances. However, your response clearly demonstrates - by itself - that you do not understand my words. And instead of clarifying the unknown you instead assert your impression in stark contrast to what was actually said. Furthermore, you knew you were in the wrong and continued to edit war anyways and you continued to advance knowingly false claims at BLPN. I facepalmed in the talk page because I saw you failed to understand what was even being discussed and you completely took the opposite meaning from even small documents. You do not understand. You do not understand and I cannot help you understand - a week of that prompted the facepalm. We cannot work together when you cannot understand the material or the words of others - it is a communication issue that cannot be resolved by anything I or any other editor can do. You are the reason we cannot work together - because you do not understand and do not listen. If you were to just listen and clarify what you do not understand then everything would be just peachy and you would not be calling Cassell's source WP:OR, WP:BLPPRIMARY, WP:BLPSPS, or WP:FRINGE. Absolutely none of these policies are in any way relevant, at all, to the arguments you continue to advance and defend even after this point is made perfectly clear by multiple parties. That is why. Before you get mad, I said I do apologize because of what it meant and what it means. But do you understand what this means now? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Discretionary sanctions notification - BLP
Please carefully read this information:
The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.
Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.
This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.
@Callanecc: Fair enough. I ask that if an AE case is filed against me that you do not comment as an uninvolved admin because of this notification and your collapsing of the offending section. --RAN1 (talk) 01:31, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, when I wrote that I was only aware of my being alerted and wasn't aware you were considering all parties. Feel free to disregard my statement, I don't intend to ask for recusal based on this anymore. --RAN1 (talk) 06:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Concerning the closure of the ANI regarding the IBAN between Baseball Bugs and The Rambling Man
Hi Ran, good to meet you. Concerning your good-faith suggestion to close the thread referenced, I'm wondering if I might presume upon you for a small favour, if you find any value in my reason. Specifically I'm wondering if I can get you to retract your cue for closure, if only for another day. I know the chances are beyond slim, but I'm still hoping that there might be an opportunity here to help Medeis and TRM come to a gentleman's agreement that will help them stay out of each-other's way. I know the thread started concerning the interaction between Bugs and TRM, but it quickly became more about the dynamic between the other pairing, the bulk of the comments concern them, and (most crucially) Medeis is engaged there. Neither of them has responded to specific proposal and I rather sense reluctance on Medeis part (and there's really no guessing how TRM might respond to it), but long-shot or no, I think it's worth the try. If this has to come back to ANI again, surely one or more of the three ends up with a TBAN or a block and I think that (for the moment) the two who have most doggedly gone at it are aware of this fact and as receptive to a compromise solution as they are ever going to be. Which still may not prove to be enough, but there's potentially much to be gained and nothing to be lost in making the attempt. Snowtalk05:48, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Snow Rise: Hey, I was just about to post a comment on ANI regarding that. I took a second look at it, and it seems Medeis started a second thread under that section on 04:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC). Considering that you have Medeis engaged there, I'm thinking refactoring all posts including and after that into its own section (or own subsection under the TRM IBAN section) would be best, since (as far as I can tell in a quick skim) that thread doesn't depend on the discussion of TRM/Bugs's IBAN. What do you think? --RAN1 (talk) 05:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC).[reply]
Yes, that does indeed seem to be the most elegant solution. Thank you kindly for your assistance in this; as I said, I'm dubious about the outcome of this line of discussion, but if it has even a chance of disentangling this mess, I feel compelled to pursue it at least a little bit longer. Cheers! Snowtalk06:03, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and feel free to remove my most recent post in the thread (concerning the cue itself) if you refactor the section yourself, seeing as it will no longer be germane. Snowtalk06:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Snow Rise: What I'm planning on doing is refactoring the Medeis/TRM discussion into its own subsection and leaving the rest unaltered for reference. How's that sound? --RAN1 (talk) 06:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds about right to me; I believe you're suggesting Medeis' post at 04:11, 4 January as the severing-point? With your cue and Bugs' endorsement also tagged on to the end? Will you place the Medeis/TRM discussion as a subsection of the above thread, specifically? That would work pretty well, I think, though it will create one monumental thread when they are fused -- but with the subsection linking on the TOC, it's really no more of a navigation issue/eye sore than the two discussions are individually at present, and it will keep like-discussions together. That would allow you to leave Bugs' request (and the handful of posts that relate to it) as its own thread, with cue intact. Indeed, given Bugs has given his blessing to the closure of the request, you could probably archive that section and the comments without issue, though I would do that in a separate edit in the (highly unlikely) event that someone wants to reverse the closure. Snowtalk06:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This comment (first sentence) is very incivil. I'm not going to log this warning or take any further action given it's around 24 hours old and you weren't officially aware of the discretionary sanctions, but you need to be more careful. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, though per my reporting of FCAYS at AE, I was officially aware at the time of that edit. I'll be more careful about how I phrase my disagreements. --RAN1 (talk) 06:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
THX
I was wondering about McCulloch's role in the matter since the other pieces were all jumbled and I knew something was being lost by Sorkin's 2014 piece. It makes sense now. You might not agree with me, but I don't exactly hold McCulloch in high or low regards. Sorkin's 2014 piece makes numerous issues and Sorkin has a clear slant to the writings. McCulloch doesn't seem to lie - but he has made several comments easily seen as misleading, whether or not they needed the assistance is irrelevant. A high-quality BLP needs such nuance and you've helped provide that nuance. Now, Kinkogate can return with appropriate context. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisGualtieri: Glad that works out. Sorkin seems to be quite the expert, considering he did a decent chunk of the reporting in 97, but referencing the original news publications rather than his personal take is easier to handle for WP's purposes. I'd recommend you add the relevant articles to your current Highbeam request so you can get your hands on them ASAP. --RAN1 (talk) 07:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I got sent a few articles, but I do intend to stay away from that article for the time being. I still see the 2014 source as being an issue and the previous articles far more nuanced. You may not realize this, but I usually end up sifting through a fair amount of hoax material and other junk without raising any "fuss" because its just easier to do so. Few editors will get hinged up about word choice or the implications of certain sentences, but I do. When I am researching and finding material in the archives, a lot of claims and reports are often inaccurate or contradictory. Sometimes material is plain wrong and its by my doing that the record is set straight. I submit corrections and work in the background on most things. You won't believe the sort of vandalism and garbage that clutters some articles. I might fix Froggy's page up, but ugh... even not under BLP I shudder at the implications of doing so. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisGualtieri: Fair enough, I know how wording and implication issues can be extremely aggravating even if they seem silly sometimes. I hope those articles will let you clear up those vagueness issues, the intros provided far better context than some of the modern articles we've been citing. --RAN1 (talk) 05:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned, your source was actually among the best - I just don't know McCulloch too well to really proceed and I am not exactly supportive of his actions. Despite this, I'm likely to get Braff's work in the few days and I'll be thoroughly busy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Following up re COI
Hi RAN1 -- I appreciated your comments at the AE I filed, although I'm sorry I filed it: I was upset. Just wanted to follow up on our brief exchange about COI. I wrote: "Note: In the "real world", practicing acupuncturists study and write MEDRS's about its effectiveness and are not generally considered conflicted," to which you replied [1] "Regarding COI, Wikipedia does not apply that standard to COIs since Wikipedia's aims are markedly different than most MEDRS's." But we do apply that standard, insofar as WP:COI has said for years (in one way or another) that simply having a profession does not, in itself, create a COI. And Wikipedia does share, with e.g. Cochrane Reviews, the aim of writing a good tertiary source. Obviously WP differs from Cochrane, e.g., anyone can edit, and it's not necessarily reliable.
My thinking is: Practicing acupuncturists write Cochrane reviews, which we consider unsurpassed as MEDRS's. Do we presume to be somehow more "exclusive" than Cochrane? Of all the editors we could be discouraging, why does it have to be topic-area experts, especially when arguably our single worst problem is a shrinking pool of editors? (MastCell is sadly correct in his WP:CGTW #4, including the footnote.) As long as expert editors respect WP:5P and WP:ADVOCACY, I think they should be treated like everyone else, plus maybe an extra "thank-you".
AFAIK, Wikipedia has never told an entire profession that they automatically have a COI, even though many professionals would benefit from somehow having their profession look better. Also, in my experience the COI argument has been raised cynically, in an attempt to win content disputes: I've seen this more and more lately, where editors comment on the contributor instead of content. Very much the young male demographic, aggressive, more "skeptic" than scientist. Just my thoughts, FWIW. Happy editing. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 10:16, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]