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This map should help explain why the Hamptons-Riverhead radio template is not necessary: Nielsen Market Metro Map 2014
There was a time, before Arbitron was purchased by Nielsen, that the Hamptons-Riverhead market was its own market, but one that was embedded within the Nassau-Suffolk market. This situation was actually short lived, and Hamptons-Riverhead disappeared, essentially merging back into Nassau-Suffolk. Creating the Hamptons-Riverhead market template today is not necessary, as it is already included within Nassau-Suffolk.
As for the examples you mention, the Pittsfield radio template is necessary, because it's not part of a metro market (see map link above).
The Newport Radio template is actually not necessary, as it is part of the Providence-Warwick-Pawtucket metro market (again, see map link above). I'm not sure why that template was created, but, as far as the map goes, Newport can be merged into the Providence template.
You can find more maps at the American Radio History site that go back to 1987. For the purposes of Wikipedia, we should be using the most recent information available.
--DrChuck68 (talk) 14:44, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you 100%, except I did merge the two templates together. That last for about a month, until someone restored it to it's present shape. Also there are a number of templates that are actually embedded into actual markets: Lewiston-Auburn (in the Portland market), Northeast Kingdom (St. Johnsbury is part of the NEK and a principal city of the Montpelier-lead market), Gilroy-Hollister (in the San Jose market), Livermore and Tri-Valley (both in the San Francisco market), etc. The reasoning was because it "functions as a separate market". So do the Hamptons and so does North Conway-Fryeburg. Where does the disagreement come? TomG2002 (talk) 19:51, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Template:San Francisco Metro Markets has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Binksternet (talk) 16:35, 30 January 2017 (UTC) Those other markets are in fact in the market. Santa Rosa is in Sonoma County, Diablo Valley is in Contra Costa, Gilroy is in Santa Clara, etc. All those counties are in the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose market. TomG2002 (talk) 19:52, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Template:Springfield MA Radio. Block evasion by User:Pablo909. Binksternet (talk) 16:50, 30 January 2017 (UTC) The reason why I added Albany, Providence, Danbury, etc. is because there are markets that are equivalently distanced, if not further, on other market templates that haven't been touched. Examples include Santa Maria and Los Angeles, Palm Springs and Bullhead City-Laughlin-Needles, DFW and OKC, and Fort Wayne to Chicago. At one point in time, Houston and McAllen were being grouped together, along with Santa Barbara and San Diego, Yuma and Phoenix, Portland ME and Boston, and Albany and Syracuse, Lebanon, NYC and Burlington. Even Worcester (east of Springfield) at one point got grouped with Albany, where Springfield is closer. TomG2002 (talk) 19:50, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
TomG2002 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
For who it may concern, especially User:Binksternet and User:DrChuck68, I am not a sock puppet of Pablo909/Geoffrey100. (Redacted), and thus have restrictive interests, but at the same time, rather extreme knowledge of them. In my case, that interest is radio. I did make an edit to Template:Springfield MA Radio expanding the nearby markets for one reason only: because other markets had other, rather distant, markets being put in the aforementioned section. These include San Diego being put with Santa Barbara, Syracuse being put with Albany, Houston and San Antonio being put with McAllen, St George being put with Salt Lake City, and even Worcester being put with Albany (when I put Albany on the Springfield template, it got reverted). The creation of Template:San Francisco Metro Markets was due to the Santa Rosa, San Jose, Gilroy and Diablo Valley areas being within the San Francisco MSA. Also, the addition of nearby markets to the Augusta, San Francisco and San Jose markets shouldn't have been reverted, as the nearby market system (I'm pretty sure) is being used for most templates, and the state ones are being phased out. Due to my editing in the past, I have one question: what exactly defines a "nearby market"? I hope that you unblock me, as I am most definitely NOT the same person as Pablo909 and Geoffrey100. TomG2002 (talk) 10:14 pm, 3 February 2017, Friday (1 month, 22 days ago) (UTC+1)
Accept reason:
I'm giving you the benefit of doubt. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
I have since looked at the article stating dozens of ways you could be presumed as a sock puppet, and have realized why I (may) have been mistaken as a sock puppet: my lack of involvement with the Wikipedia community. This is due to my social skills deficits. I also have similar interests to User:Geoffrey100 and User:Pablo909, which is radio. I had absolutely no intentions of disrupting Wikipedia, in other words, a good faith editor, and was using the Nielsen audio map to create the defunct San Francisco metro markets template. I didn't mean any harm, I promise. Please unblock me, User:DrChuck68, User:Binksternet or another user. TomG2002 (talk) 23:09, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
I reverted your addition of WXNI to the NB/FR market because WXNI is now licensed to Newport, not North Dartmouth, according to the FCC's CDBS.Stereorock (talk) 02:56, 16 July 2017 (UTC) Oh, it still transmits from North Dartmouth, and according to Rhode Island Public Radio's Facebook page, they ID as "WXNI FM and HD, North Dartmouth". It was posted on July 11th.[1] TomG2002 (talk) 21:05, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
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Just wondering what you're using as your criteria for putting links to nearby markets/regions in these templates. In some of your edit summaries, I see "100 miles," but I'm wondering if that distance may be encompassing too much area. With templates like Boston (and other densely populated areas) that have many regions with 100 miles, that list could grow to be too long, and I'm not sure how helpful that will be to readers. You may want to consider cutting that back to a 75 or 50 mile radius for densely populated regions. For more rural and less densely populated areas, a 100 mile (or longer) radius may be just fine. --DrChuck68 (talk) 17:17, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
I have used the fringe contour of the most powerful radio station(s) in a said region as a reference point for the “nearby market” section. These stations include WSRS and WXLO in Worcester, WKCI and WPLR in New Haven, WSPK and WPDH in the mid-Hudson Valley, WHUD for the Lower Hudson Valley, WBLM in Portland, WFNK and WTHT in Lewiston-Auburn, WTOS in Augusta, WHOM in Northern NH, etc. I included all (or most) of the markets that these stations can be heard in as “nearby”. So for instance, WGBH-FM (one of three reference stations for Boston) can be heard in Tolland County (part of the Hartford market), as can WVEI-FM (a reference station for Providence). WAMC (the one reference station in Pittsfield) can be heard in northwestern Middlesex County (Boston region), western Hillsborough Cointy (Manchester region), and southwestern Merrimack County (Concord/Laconia region). WCTK (the reference station for New Bedford-Fall River) can be heard in eastern New London County, etc.
Usually, using these parameters, the furthest region for each template comes out to around 100 miles, so instead of explaining my methodology every time I edit a template, I put “100 miles” as an approximation. I hope this helps! TomG2002 (talk) 20:51, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
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On the east coast and west coast, 100 kW FMs are rather rare/unique. In some cases (such ask KRUZ) their wattage is "grandfathered" so they are allowed to retain their alloted wattage (in KRUZ's case, 105 kW). In the midewest and Rocky Mountain regions, they're more commonplace, and don't need to be pointed out as much. I'm thinking these footnotes should be used in these rare/unique cases, rather than for any station that broadcasts at 100 kW. KOLT-FM may broadcast at 100 kW, but that's not unusual for Colorado/Wyoming. The "Nearby regions" section in the template will lead the readers/editors to stations that can broadcast to the current template, but their COL is outside the current template. --DrChuck68 (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Hey, I'm doing some of the leg work to determine what Mexican radio templates look like with Template:Mexico Radio Markets replaced. How far apart do you think adjacent markets need to be to be linked from each other's pages? Raymie (t • c) 22:57, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
It depends. For some markets that are more densely populated, only the adjacent markets need to be listed. For other, more isolated markets that may have only one adjacent market (like Baja California Sur), you might link to other nearby markets (like Tijuana) or use the water boundary of a state/market if applicable. TomG2002 (talk) 12:30, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Using the words "receivable" or "audible" on radio templates makes it sound way too much like WP:OR. A radio template refers to an "area" or a "region" where a station originates (COL). Receiving antennas vary from radio to radio, and may not be able to receive all stations listed in the template. --DrChuck68 (talk) 23:17, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
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I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your edits to ((Kingston Radio)) and ((Brockville Radio)). You have "Brockville is its own market" which I can kind of understand, but "Bancroft is unrated?" Why are Central Frontenac, Kemptville, Loyalist, and Napanee also wiped out? Many of Canada's templates have large regions grouped by towns/cities, that don't have a many stations in each town/city, and Kingston was one of them. In doing this kind of edit, now there are several articles that still have the Kingston template on them, but the Kingston template doesn't have the link to that article. There are some U.S. templates also organized this way, such as ((Northwest Washington Radio)). Is that area rated? I can't say for sure, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. However, it is a region and there are some stations there. I guess my point is not every template is a rated metro area. --DrChuck68 (talk) 15:05, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Please don't arbitrarily split up Canadian radio station navboxes, the way you did with Brockville and St. Catharines, without first establishing a consensus that such splits are needed at all. Radio "markets" are not as tightly defined in Canada as they are in the United States, and the CRTC is much more conservative in licensing radio stations with the result that Canadian cities almost never have as many radio stations as an American city of equivalent size would have — so Canadian radio navboxes are not based on the principle of "every city always gets its own radio navbox". Major markets get their own templates while smaller markets get handled at the region level, which is precisely why places which don't have enough of their own stations to warrant their own dedicated navbox, like St. Catharines and Brockville, were being included in the Hamilton and Kingston templates instead of getting their own.
Basically, a town or city needs to have around ten radio stations of its own before a dedicated navbox is justified; if it has less than that, then it has to be upmerged to a broader regional template. But that also works the other way around: a city like Hamilton does technically have enough stations to support its own navbox, but taking Hamilton out of the Hamilton-Niagara navbox also has the effect of sinking Niagara back below the ten-station cutoff, so the templates still have to stay merged since there's nothing else St. Cat's/Niagara can be merged with to keep it over the ten-stations cutoff. And it's also precisely because we group most non-metropolitan radio markets at the regional level, rather than by the "Nielsen markets" that we don't actually have, that we do not exclude stations from the template based on whether their city of license is a "rated" market or not — if it's in the region, it's in the template, because excluding it from templates on that basis has the effect of orphaning it from inbound wikilinks and leaving it isolated.
And by the same token, reorganizing the Ottawa template the way you did broke an incredibly important contextual distinction — the Ottawa template needs a way to distinguish which stations are on the Ottawa side of the river from which stations are on the Gatineau side, which isn't served by just grouping all the stations together in one list. (Hint: there's a big difference between the two groups that goes well beyond physical location and into actual on-air content. Wanna take a wild guess what it might be?)
Canada and the United States are two different countries with different circumstances and different needs. So the organizing principle for Canadian-related content is not "always exactly replicate the way the United States is doing stuff" — Canadian templates are based on Canada's needs, not on unconditionally mirroring American navbox formatting. (And besides, you didn't even spell St. Catharines correctly.) If you think St. Cats and Hamilton need to have separate templates, and/or Brockville and Kingston need to have separate templates, then you need to propose that for discussion rather than just arbitrarily imposing it. Bearcat (talk) 13:45, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
How about US templates that have less than 12 stations, like Stamford-Norwalk, CT, Morristown, NJ and North Conway, NH-Fryeburg, ME? Maybe for the embedded NYC markets, a single “suburban NYC” template would work? TomG2002 (talk) 17:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Also, do we really need sections for every single city/region that a station is licensed to? This method of grouping stations made for unnecessary amounts of clutter on market templates. It’d be like grouping stations in the Boston market like I did in my sandbox — way more cluttered than it should be. TomG2002 (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia defines the city of license as "...the community that a radio station or television station is officially licensed to serve by that country's broadcast regulator." In the U.S., that broadcast regulator is the FCC. It is not krgspec.com. krgspec.com describes itself as "...the radio division of Katz Media. We are the number-one national sales representation firm in the radio industry, working with more than 2200 radio stations in over 300 markets across the U.S."
krgspec.com is for companies that want to advertise on radio stations. The site shows what audiences the stations are able to reach, regardless of the FCC's city of license. WPLR has the COL of New Haven, CT. The signal reaches Long Island, and northern CT, but does that make it a Hartford station, or a Long Island station? No, it does not. The city of license is the city of origin, so it goes into Template:New Haven Radio, and no other template. Companies may advertise on WPLR in order to reach New Haven and Hartford, but that does not mean that WPLR is a Hartford station, as they are licensed to serve New Haven. WRKI is licensed to Brookfield (near Danbury) but it can reach most of Fairfield County. Its city of license puts it in Template:Danbury Radio, and that template only. Just because a station can reach an area doesn't mean it serves that area. Please do not confuse reach with serve. --DrChuck68 (talk) 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
What about WEBE, which is clearly a Bridgeport-market station as it transmits from downtown Bridgeport? It definitely serves the Bridgeport market. I get that WKCI and WPLR aren’t in the Bridgeport template, but WEBE? TomG2002 (talk) 13:59, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Westport is 2 towns away from Bridgeport. I don’t see why it can’t at least be included in both Bridgeport and Stamford’s templates, since Westport is definitely part of Greater Bridgeport. And also, according to https://connoisseurmedia.com/connoisseur-media-to-purchase-cox-media-groups-connecticut-Radio-group/, WFOX is the only commercial FM station home to the S/N market. TomG2002 (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
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The city of license of WEBE is Westport. It has always been Westport, regardless of where their transmitter or studios are. It does not "literally transmit from Bridgeport." It's the city of license that determines template placement, not WP:OR.
For the case of of WKTU, they started out as a Long Island radio station. Their city of license is Lake Success, located in western Nassau county. Over time, the station's transmitter moved to NYC, but the COL has remained Lake Success. This makes WKTU a special case where it can be placed in both the LI and NYC templates. WEBE is not a special case.
There are three templates that cover Fairfield county (Bridgeport, Danbury, and Stamford-Norwalk). At the time they were set up, it was also how the radio markets themselves were set up. Would it make sense to merge all three into one? That would require discussion (and potential consensus) which I would be open to. DrChuck68 (talk) 15:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
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