The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep. What a long AFD discussion. Neil ム 11:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The assertion of notability here is that he is "the first Russian-Soviet Musician to receive a Doctoral Degree from Yale." He has performed in many venues, but not necessarily as a headliner. "Extraordinary Abilities in the Arts" U.S. permanent residence indicates that he has a Green Card, but the criteria for that type of Green Card approval is not at all the same as Wikipedia's criteria for notability, Won some type of Web contest. In short, he's an assistant professor. We can't keep him just for being handsome. Brought here for discussion. OfficeGirl 11:00, 13 September 2007
*The multiple lengthy comments from the creator have made the consensus difficult to follow, so I have taken the liberty of reformatting the page to move the nonvotes to a separate section from the discussion. -FisherQueen (Talk) 14:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, FisherQueen, and I regret having commented at such length. Bazaryakov 16:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Russian Piano school is one of the most prominent in the world, and Moscow Tchaikovsky Conservatory is the primary musical institution in the world. Wikipedia has multiple articles about Russian-Soviet musicians who have contributed to the art of piano playing: none of them have achieved a higher scholarly achievement than Mr. Novgorodsky, who is both an alumnus of Tchaikovsky Conservatory and holds the Doctor of Musical Arts Degree from Yale School of Music. Not only is he the first musician to have ever attained that level but he is also the only person in the world to have both degrees at the moment. The Yale Doctoral Degree is given only to the best in their field, and no Russian-born and Soviet-trained musicians in history have so far received that honor. The US Immigration criteria for "Extraordinary Abilities in the Arts" category approval involves corroborating that the applicant has "risen to the top in his/her field of endeavor", which would have to fall into the category of special notability. If the criteria is not met, this special immigration status isn't conferred. I am quoting form the "Extraordinary Abilities in the Arts" description: The fact that Dmitri Novgorodsky is presently an Assistant Professor of Piano doesn't take away from his achievements. The academic hierarchy involves moving from the entry level to the full professor rank, and perhaps at some point in the future he will attain that academic distinction as well - but that alone wouldn't be the reason for including him in Wikipedia: we have thousands of full professors who haven't received Mr. Novgorodsky's distinctions. The headliner can be changed, if this will suit the Wikipedia format better.
Here are the Wikipedia criteria for inclusion which the article meets:
1) The person has received significant recognized awards or honors. 2) The person has demonstrable wide name recognition ( 3) The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field 4) Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country, reported in reliable sources.
Thank you for your consideration and attention to this matter,
Respectfully,
"The legal term ‘extraordinary ability’ seeks to identify those persons who have reached the very top of their professions as compared to their peers". (see the category's guidelines in the link http://www.breakthroughusa.co.uk/artists-visa-guide/). Although the article's main premise is not to establish that the approval under the "Extraordinary Abilities in The Arts" immigration category qualifies the recipient of that immigrational status for inclusion in Wikipedia, this fact in Mr. Novgorodsky's biography emphasizes that he became the first and the only Russian-Soviet musician to earn the Yale Doctoral Degree in Piano Performance BASED ON THOSE EXTRAORDINARY ABILITIES (which has been recognized and approved by the US immigration authorities as well). I would also like to draw your attention, once again, to the fact that Mr. Novgorodsky's achievements fall into at least 4 Wikipedia eligibility categories above. The ONLY one in the world is an achievement worthy of being known by the Wikipedia community and users, isn't it?
Going on to your concerns about "assistant professor" as an academic status/rank. I am sure you are well-versed enough in the academic distinctions to be aware that "assistant professor" is an entry-level rank for people who started teaching not more than 6-7 years ago. After that period, they are evaluated for tenure and, once approved, are automatically promoted into an "Associate Professor" rank. As you can see from the biography, Mr. Novgorodsky has dedicated his artistic career to multiple performances around the world, and has started his teaching career in the academia not a very long time ago. If Dmitri Novgorodsky were an associate or a full professor at this juncture, that wouldn't qualify him for inclusion in Wikipedia, nor will that fact alone do so when, in due time, he is promoted to an Associate and then to the Full Professor rank. The article cites his current university position merely as information on his present academic occupation, "A Piano Faculty" (by the way, it doesn't mention the "assistant professor" status, you are the one bringing that information into equation). However, I hope you would agree that being an Assistant Professor doesn't clash with the achievement of being the first and the only Russian and Soviet musician in the world to hold the Doctoral Degree in Piano Performance from Yale. Incidentally, Yale School of Music is the only Ivy League school which awards Doctorates in instrumental musical performance - Harvard University doesn't confer performance degrees. If you feel that fact could be reflected in the article as well, this could be considered.
Thank you so much for your comments and contributions,
Respectfully,
Bazaryakov— Bazaryakov (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I am a musician and know all notable people in the field - including most of the names featured in Wikipedia. I am not Dmitri Novgorodsky, unfortunately, and not his student, although I wish I were one. Should one be personally acquainted with the subject of one's article to submit the latter into Wikipedia? Is this a requirement? If so, then I don't meet it.
I hope my viewpoint is very easy to understand: Dmitri Novgorodsky is the first and the only Russian-Soviet musician in the world to have received a terminal degree in piano performance from the only Ivy League school in the United States which grants such degrees. He has had a distinguished career in his field, and obviously has received sufficiently notable awards and honors in that field to be included in Wikipedia.
If you are still bothered by a "mismatch" between the 'assistant professor' university rank and inclusion of its bearer in Wikipedia, here are the Wikipedia's gudelines on articles about university professors:
"If an academic/professor meets any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, they are definitely notable. If an academic/professor meets none of these conditions, they may still be notable, and the merits of an article on the academic/professor will depend largely on the extent to which it is verifiable.
1. The person is regarded as a significant expert in his or her area by independent sources. 2. The person is regarded as an important figure by independent academics in the same field. 3. The person has published a significant and well-known academic work. An academic work may be significant or well known if, for example, it is the basis for a textbook or course, if it is itself the subject of multiple, independent works, if it is widely cited by other authors in the academic literature[1]. 4. The person's collective body of work is significant and well-known. 5. The person is known for originating an important new concept, theory or idea which is the subject of multiple, independent, non-trivial reviews or studies in works meeting our standards for reliable sources. 6. The person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them.
As follows from the article, Dmitri Novgorodsky certainly meets more than at least one of the aforementioned conditions. However, as I have already pointed out in the course of our discussion, the aim of the article is not to acquaint the Wikipedia users with Dmitri Novgorodsky's academic rank, nor does the article feature one (the assistant professor title isn't cited there, you have brought it up). Mr. Novgorodsky's university position is a logical result and realization of his abilities to which the article is dedicated.
Lastly, are YOU acquainted with the academic and/or music field, or with Dmitri Novgorodsky's work and accomplishments personally, so you could provide the Wikipedia community with more valid, substantial, consequential, and weighty arguments for deletion than "we can't keep him just for being handsome"? The article does not feature Dmitri Novgorodsky's images, so your reference to his appearance in the argument is doubtful and suspicious: you sound as though you may have some irreconcilable personal dislike toward Dmitri Novgorodsky. After all, he is a living person, and perhaps YOU have had some conflicts of interest with him personally - or other reasons for denying the article an inclusion?
To that effect, I would invite other members of the Wikipedia community to participate in the discussion, so it wouldn't look like initiated and maintained by only one user, who is for some reason going out of his/her way to have the article deleted.
Respectfully,
Bazaryakov —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bazaryakov (talk • contribs) 14:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment My biggest concern with this article is whether or not it asserts the notability of its subject. I'm not sure that being the first Russian person to receive a specific degree from Yale makes him notable. Do we have articles on the first person from other nationalities? If you're going to use that as a criterion for inclusion, then we need to be thorough.
My next concern is that the article is completely unsourced except for the lists of doctoral candidates and lists of Moscow Conservatory Students. When I read the article, I thoguht that the numbered citations linked to external sources, but they are just internal wikilinks that are formatted incorrectly. For example, the article mentions that Mr. Novgorodsky played at Carnegie Hall. There is a citation next to this statement that I thought would verify this fact. However, it merely links to the Carnegie Hall page. That doesn't prove that he played there. That being said, notability is not asserted, because the only proven facts in the article are that he was a member of Conservatory and earned his doctorate. Those are hardly notable achievements.
If this article is going to be kept it needs to be expanded, sourced, and formatted correctly. Simply naming the places that he has played at is not going to cut it. These facts need to be verified by multiple, reliable, indepenedent sources. Right now, this article does not have much to stand on, if anything. Unless it is edited heavily within the next couple of days, I believe it should be deleted. None of the facts are verified and notability is certainly not established in the article.
Finally, Bazaryakov needs to read this policy, and comment on the article, not the editor. OfficeGirl asked a perfectly legitimate question and your response questioning her motive was unnecessary and in bad faith. --Cyrus Andiron 16:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
.EXISING WIKIPEDIA PRECEDENTS
Dear Wikipedia experts,
Thank you for your comments. Here is an example of an existing Wikipedia article about a musician: [[5]] Are there any links to verifiable, independent sources here, rather than external sources links? How is notability established, except for the fact that the subject "currently studies at Juilliard"?
Bazaryakov 16:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)— Bazaryakov (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
COMMENT But doesn't existence of other articles show they HAVE qualified for inclusion in Wikipedia? I am just attempting to contest the notion that this article does not establish notability of its subject. Notability is verified both in text and in the references. If you have suggestions on how to better format the article, use the "help improve the article" link instead of calling for deletion of the subject. By the way, I don't take it so seriously either. Bazaryakov 17:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)— Bazaryakov (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
COMMENT
DOUBLE STANDARD, CONCERN
The article has more evidence in the reference section than any other articles on living performing musicians presently found in the Wikipedia. NONE of the articles I have read present any evidence of recordings, reviews, or concert (except for listing them) then the discussed article does (in the form of links and references). Deleting this article would create a double standard - then we would have to delete most of the existing articles. As to notability - this is a matter of personal taste. I would argue that Hitler isn't more notable than someone who has top degrees from major music schools in the world, maintains an active recording and performing career and is also teaching in an university. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bazaryakov (talk • contribs) 22:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT
GOOD ARTICLE. ENOUGH NOTABILITY. I DON'T KNOW WHY EVERYONE HAS FLIPPED OUT SO MUCH, REALLY. JUST LOOK AT OTHER PIANISTS' ENTRIES UNDER WIKIPEDIA'S List of classical pianists AND PLEASE TELL ME HOW THEY ESTABLISH THEIR SUBJECTS' NOTABILITY - OR HAVE MORE REFERENCES AND DOCUMENTAL EVIDENCE THEREOF THAN MINE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bazaryakov (talk • contribs) 10:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC) [reply]
LEAVE Here are existing Wikipedia articles on pianists:
[[6]]
[[7]]
[[8]]
[[9]]
[[10]]
CAN ANYBODY FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF THE CLAIMS MADE IN ANY OF THEM? DO THEY MEET NOTABILITY CRITERIA? I PROMISE MOST ARTICLES ARE THE SAME! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bazaryakov (talk • contribs) 11:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
NOTABILITY CRITERIA ARE EVALUATED BY THE ESTABLISHED, EXISTING, ACCEPTED PRECEDENTS IN WIKIPEDIA. DENYING THE DISCUSSED ARTICLE A PLACE IN WIKIPEDIA SHOULD INCLUDE REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN CONSISTENTLY APPLIED TO OTHER EXISTING ARTICLES. THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN LEFT IF THE DISCUSSED CRITERIA WERE APPLIED TO THEM AS WELL, WOULD THEY? I ASSUME THEIR PUBLICATION IN WIKIPEDIA WAS PRECEDED BY SIMILAR DISCUSSIONS, RIGHT? DO THEY HAVE ANY EVIDENCE CORROBORATING THEIR SUBJECTS' NOTABILITY AND DO THEY INCLUDE ANY MORE RELIABLE SOURCES THAN THIS ONE?
THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF "CRITERIA" AND ITS DISCUSSION HERE, WITHOUT REFERRING TO PRECEDENTS OF ITS CURRENT PRACTICAL APPLICATION IN WIKIPEDIA, BECOMES
1) WORTHLESS;
2) HYPOCRITICAL;
3) PREJUDICED REGARDING A PARTICULAR SUBJECT/ARTICLE;
4) PROMOTING DOUBLE-STANDARD IN WIKIPEDIA.
PERHAPS IT INDEED WOULD BE BETTER FOR SUCH AN ARTICLE TO BE PUBLISHED IN A VENUE WHERE THE NOTIONS OF "EVIDENCE", "NOTABILITY" ETC. ARE APPLIED CONSISTENTLY TO EVERYONE. OTHERWISE A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT ARTICLES ARE TO BE PUBLISHED OR DELETED SOUNDS RIDICULOUS. Bazaryakov 11:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT. Indeed, why would anyone want to be in the venue where the concept of criteria has no logic and where everyone, nevertheless, arrogantly preaches on what is acceptable? Other articles weren't checked to see if they are notable? The community believes them to be on par with Wikipedia's policies? Then so much for Wikipedia "policies" - gibberish. FORGET IT, PUBLISH ARTICLES ON KNITTING. I AM SURE THEY WOULD FIT YOU "CRITERIAS". SEE YA.
Oh, I forgot - I will type in caps until I decide to do otherwise - sorry it makes you so "enraged like a little girl" you pay attention. :)
Bazaryakov 12:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just the last comment, before I leave the discussion: read the article carefully and see if it matches the WP:MUSIC notability criteria. In particular, look at paragraphs 1, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12. Show how the subject isn't notable and how the evidence supplied in the reference section doesn't match at least one of the WP:MUSIC criteria.
All the best,
Bazaryakov 13:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT Hey all. I have heavily formatted the article. Please take a look and see if it matches the WP:MUSIC notability criteria. In particular, look at paragraphs 1, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12 of the WP:MUSIC. In your arguments, please show how the subject isn't notable according to the criteria and how the evidence supplied in the "Reference", "Review", and "Further reading" sections of the article doesn't match at least one of the WP:MUSIC criteria.
All the best,
Bazaryakov 16:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Keep. I understand there are no more arguments for deletion, now that the article has been reformatted and includes additional sources which verify the subject's notability under WP:MUSIC?
Thank you all, Bazaryakov 18:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response The article is no longer as sloppy looking as it started out, but there's just no further substance than what we have been seeing on his University bio. He may have a promising future, but he's just not notable enough to be in an encyclopedia.OfficeGirl 21:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bazaryakov 23:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Canuckle 21:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response
1) Review in University paper is considered trivial on a case-by-case basis. Besides, the review included in the article in the "review" section is from an independent paper, The New Britain Herald.
2) *12 - Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio or TV network - Is Wisconsin Public Radio considered national?"' - Yes, I would say Wisconsin National Public Radio is considered national. Every state in the country has its national radio, so does Wisconsin.
"Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio". WP:MUSIC doesn't say the performances "have to be distributed nationwide". The criteria say "...has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio". Wisconsin Public Radio is a part of NPR, and solo recitals on the series last more than an hour. To be invited to perform a solo recital in a life broadcast more than once is an honor only few are accorded. Thus, the subject fully meets that WP:MUSIC criterion. Bazaryakov 23:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
3) Quoting OfficeGirl:"The article is no longer as sloppy looking as it started out, but there's just no further substance than what we have been seeing on his University bio. He may have a promising future, but he's just not notable enough to be in an encyclopedia" Response to OfficeGirl, a quote from WP:MUSIC: "Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. These are merely rules of thumb used by some editors when deciding whether or not to keep an article that is on articles for deletion". Also, the discussion here is not about the subject's University bio and the article's comparison with the latter. Please try to make relevant comments on the article in Wikipedia.
4) Kazakhstan National Piano Competition doesn't sound like a teenager competition. In the latter case, it would be called a "Kazakhstan National Teenagers' Competition". It is hard to verify winning a prize at a competition which took place in 1982 (when Internet in Kasakhstan did not exist, nor did it in the US). There are hard paper diplomas in Kazakh (!)language, and probably publications in newspapers in the same language verifying that, but couldn't be placed into a Wikipedia English web article. That, however, does not deplete the notion of Kazakhstan National Competition's notability.
Amen, it is also on the disputers to prove otherwise. Bazaryakov 23:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, agree. But what will you do with the radio? Try to prove that Wisconsin Public Radio isn't national radio?. It is not "oh please", and it is not about "intent". This is what the WP:MUSIC guidelines say, "a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio", not "performances for national audiences". I hope Wisconsin is considered a part of the nation, and consequently its audience is national audience. And know I would like to hear your definition of "National Radio".
Bazaryakov 23:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bazaryakov 00:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article establishes and verifies that Dmitri Novgorodsky Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio or TV network (WP:MUSIC] more than once, has performed in major venues, gave a world premiere to a contemporary composition that won a Web Competition and was subsequently released on a professional label.
Bazaryakov 22:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bazaryakov 00:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bazaryakov 00:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The question involves a technicality such as formatting: providing in-line citations will take time for the editor to work on, but the article should not be deleted in the process. It satisfies the WP:MUSIC criteria of notability and supplies ample references and sources.
Thanks,
Bazaryakov 10:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, Bazaryakov 14:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OfficeGirl, thank you so much for your work on corrections, they are greatly appreciated. Bazaryakov 15:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bazaryakov 00:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The fact of major prizes and touring is established by several independent sources:
1) Reference # 5, International Double-reed society conference (yes, this is a bio, but published by a source independent of the subject's workplace;
2) Reference # 2, the New Britain Herald - an independent source. Perhaps this is considered a "small town" newspaper (not everyone has the New York Times recapping one's prizes back in the 80s, which were won outside of the US and before the onset of Internet), although I can't find anywhere in WP that small papers aren't considered as reliable sources;
3) Reference # 42, Appleton's Post-Crescent: by the way, this newspaper serves an entire region.
4) Reference # 8: University of Iowa Press -Release - independent source. This is all I've got on Novgorodsky as far as Internet. Now how do I list sources that are non-English and non Internet? I'd appreciate your input, thanks.
Bazaryakov 01:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
1) An article "Keyed up" about D. Novgorodsky from the "Post -Crescent", dated November 10, 2000. It is about D. Novgorodsky (an interview with him, including his picture), it mentions his prize winning of National Competitions, but 2000 issues aren't kept in the online archives.
2) 2 Carnegie Hall performance programs (January 6, 2001 and Saturday 7, 1998) which list his prizes;
3) A Kazakh newspaper from 2002...
4) A recital program from Jerusalem Rubin Academy of Music (in Hebrew), which also refers to his prizes won in the former Soviet Union.
How do I cite (list) them in Wikipedia??
Thank you,
Bazaryakov 02:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]