AfDs for this article:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

G-WAN (Web server)[edit]

G-WAN (Web server) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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largely promotional article on an unremarkable web server. Claims are referenced with primary sources, other wikipedia articles or blogs. Lacks coverage in 3rd party reliable sources. (hotly) contested prod. RadioFan (talk) 13:11, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. —RadioFan (talk) 13:16, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bugapi (talk) 13:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions. —RadioFan (talk) 14:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you'd like to correctly link to the article you've add to the list, a problem might not occur in the future. I'm sorry if the mark-up is confusing for you; you may want to ask for help in the future when you're not sure why something happened. Kuru (talk) 01:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Smerdis of Tlön, Why do you keep mentioning that the articles are about "back-office software"? Why should that make any difference one way or the other? --Hamitr (talk) 19:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Back office" means "part of the infrastructure that the general public does not see or deal with." As such it's unlikely to be noticed in widely read, non-local, outside the trade publications. Back office products need to have some showing of historical, technical, or cultural importance. "Notability" means "outside the IT department". - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 20:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I know what "back office" means, but I fail to see how "back office" software would have different notability requirements than "front office" software or any other type of software.
"Back office products need to have some showing of historical, technical, or cultural importance."
Is that WP policy or your opinion?
--Hamitr (talk) 20:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As the notability guideline on corporations and products says, "(w)hen evaluating the notability of organizations, please consider whether it has had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education." "Historical, technical, or cultural importance" is just shorthand for all that. This is why "back office" is relevant. More importantly, as Jimmy Wales put it when he started the concept of notability, notability means long term historical notability. Articles on products should demonstrate enough impact on history, technology, or culture to show that they have some kind of long term historical significance. This becomes especially important when the prospect of conflict of interest is raised. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 21:49, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It sure reads to me that your quote from WP:CORP:
"When evaluating the notability of organizations, please consider whether it has had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education."
applies only to the notability of organizations, or else the sentence would include "notability of organizations and/or products." However, the "Primary criteria" section of the same page states:
"A company, corporation, organization, school, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject." (emphasis added)
This is pretty much a restatement of the "standard" WP:Notability policy, so I still don't see how "back office" or similar classifications have any bearing on notability.
--Hamitr (talk) 22:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Article claims notability (but doesn't back it up with anything more than primary sources), while I agree that it should be speediable, not worth the lecture from an admin about tagging articles for deletion which make some claim of notability and dont read completely like spam cut and paste from a glossy brochure.--RadioFan (talk) 01:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the lecture anyway :) (for Strikeforce): A7 is explicitly not for software, G11 is iffy since the puffery can be cleaned up. The problem is all you're left with is sourced from the developer. In a contested situation, it's best to let it run through AFD and then you can use G4 in the future, presuming a delete result. Kuru (talk) 01:34, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mmmmm, good points. I hadn't thought it all the way through. Strikerforce (talk) 06:43, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep: why delete G-WAN and keep the others that lack Press references: Abyss Web Server, AOLserver, Appweb, Caudium (web server), and Cherokee (Webserver), HFS, IBM HTTP Server, lighttpd, LiteSpeed Technologies Inc., Monkey (web server), NaviServer, Node.js, Null httpd, Oracle HTTP Server, publicfile, pronghorn (webserver), Roxen (web server), Oracle iPlanet Web Server, thttpd, TUX web server, TV's server, UltiDev Cassini Web Server, WEBrick, Yaws (web server), Zeus Web Server and Zope... if the rule of law governs wikipedia then it MUST be equally applied to ALL (especially those who, unlike G-WAN which is 24h old on wikipedia, enjoy years of this "unlawful" Squatting which makes it so urgent to delete G-WAN)Bugapi (talk) 05:49, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Other stuff exists is a good place to start, as far as answering your question. But, the process is the same, regardless... if you feel those articles belong at AfD, it is most certainly your right as an editor to nominate them. Strikerforce (talk) 06:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per this[1], it is recommended that you log in to contribute to this and any AfD discussion to ensure that your comment is given due regard. Strikerforce (talk) 09:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you (the wikipedia "trusted" Editors and Admins) keep violating the most important wikipedia rules daily, why should others bother to respect the most minor ones? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.77.158.222 (talk • contribs)
  • Could you help out your fellow editors and please remember to sign your comments by adding ~~~~ at the end? It helps others to know to whom they are responding.Strikerforce (talk) 12:40, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • you mean, like when the "fellow editors" edited my posts or when the "fellow editors" removed my posts completely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.77.158.222 (talk • contribs)
— 83.77.158.222 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Pretty serious accusation. Can you provide diffs to support it? Keep in mind, users are permitted to edit their own talk pages by removing posts as they see fit (with very few exceptions). Strikerforce (talk) 12:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you please let me know how you can *demonstrate* that something has been edited/removed without having access to the same server logs (that can only be altered by the guilty if I am not mistaking)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.77.108.148 (talk • contribs)
— 83.77.108.148 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • No, I was referring to changes/deletes in posts like *this* text (not in wikipedia articles). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.76.183.121 (talk • contribs)
— 83.77.158.121 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
— 62.203.188.42 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
It is quite clear by looking at the diffs that Syrthiss was fixing your errors and not removing anything from the list. Please acknowledge this and retract your personal attacks. - MrOllie (talk) 14:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is quite easy to restore his edits and see that they remove G-WAN from the "Comparison of Web Server Software". As you do not even question why I felt necessary to restore G-WAN, your comment is irrelevant.83.77.133.243 (talk) 16:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC) — 83.77.133.243 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Strikerforce (talk) 17:31, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The burden of proof, in regard to notability, is not on me, in this situation. I am doing nothing more than routine maintenance work via my tagging. If you take a look at my edit history, you will see that that is an overwhelming part of what I choose to participate in here on Wikipedia. In no way, shape, or form am I - or any other editor that has tried to help you - targeting you or singling you out. The sooner that you can realize that, I believe, the sooner that you may be able to bring G-WAN up to appropriate status and make this whole discussion a moot point. I daresay that if you had committed as much time and effort to that task, to this point (given that the G-WAN article has been in existence now for approximately 78 hours), as you have in adding text to this discussion, you may have already accomplished something positive, rather than doing very little but running around in circles here.
In regard to your statement that essentially amounts to accusing me of having a conflict of interest, that is not assuming good faith, nor is it accurate. I have no connection whatsoever to any form of computer software (have you read my user page?), as far as advancing one or limiting the publicity of another. My interest here lies in creating an encyclopedia, not a sales brochure, which is essentially what the article we are discussing amounts to... as do many of the articles that you have mentioned in your argument. I have neither the time nor the "dog in the fight" to search through the roughly 3.59M articles currently in existence on the English Wikipedia to go on a witch hunt. I don't imagine that you do, either, but you have identified - in your own words - *26* other articles that you feel don't belong here and I commend you for that. You have been given instruction on how to bring those articles to the same level of scrutiny as G-WAN (Web server). I would suggest that you either take the instructions and begin the process on those articles or commit yourself to finding a better rationale for saving this article, because other stuff exists isn't going to cut it.
Your statement (accusation, really) about "what proves that the trio of "fellow editors" that attack G-WAN constantly are not one single person hidden behind three accounts (used to hide one single ISP)?" is not only blatantly false, but could be proven so via a request for checkuser, if you truly believe that the editors that have contributed commentary that you disagree with are, in fact, one person using multiple accounts through one ISP. However, that is once again something that is entirely your right and your decision to pursue.
Finally, in regard to your link and corresponding accusation, I am sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about. I am not located in the city that you have identified, nor is that my email address. Strikerforce (talk) 12:34, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not impressed by the length of your empty comment: I did not expect the guilty to confess his faults. But it has been ruled a criminal offense in the U.S. to post insults under the cover of an anonymous profile, so the "fellow editor" who did it should be banned from wikipedia. Strange that nobody among you guys seem to care about the black sheep "fellow editor".81.63.69.80 (talk) 06:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest reading Wikipedia's policies against legal threats. Strikerforce (talk) 06:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]


((outdent))

Comment I assume the trio of fellow editors mentioned above is in reference to the the request for comment on user conduct underway concerning Bugapi. For the record there are 7 editors involved in that process, not three.--RadioFan (talk) 13:16, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am sure that you can invite as many relatives as your long life on wikipedia allows this to take place. However, the number of (one-way) unfair comments against one single person does not do anything to leverage the poor quality of your arguments. Since day one, you have used every possible way to use the 'form' against the 'matter' and this new personal attack is the proof that you just can't stand on the face of a balanced debate.62.202.107.154 (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're trying to debate the policies themselves. You are very unlikely to change policy in this venue. On the other hand if you could work within the policy and provide us with, say, two newspaper articles about G-WAN, I would reverse my vote to a keep. I'm pretty sure everyone else involved in this discussion would as well. - MrOllie (talk) 18:34, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unfair behavior and plain insults from "good-faith editors" are hardly about applying policies. How can we trust "fellow editors" who act like a gang of crooks? How can they be considered trustworthy?81.63.69.80 (talk) 06:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have grown so sick of attempting to get you to realize why this article is up for deletion that this will more than likely be my final contribution to this discussion. My advice to you is, as it has been before, to find better sources for the article. Anything that originates from the publisher, TrustLeap, or from www.gwan.com is - by the boundaries set by WP:RS - not acceptable for use within the article. If you would like to include those "sources" (for lack of a better word, at the moment) as external links, then that may be permissible. I have just completed yet another Google search for information about G-WAN and - through approximately 20 pages of results - have not been able to find sources of information that are not either directly published by TrustLeap or do not originate from (i.e., interviews with developers, spokespeople, etc) TrustLeap. If you can do a better job sourcing the article, I will gladly consider changing my opinion on the subject. That has been my position all along, sir. The issue that I have with the article is not necessarily the notability of the subject (although that is debatable), but the sourcing problem and your continued argument that "if X exists, then Y must also be allowed to exist". The article has now been live for almost 96 hours... that's nearly four full days. What have you done in that time to improve it? I can't see where you have done much other than come here under the protection of a dynamic IP and give the same argument over and over again. For that, you have nobody to blame but yourself, not other contributor's to this discussion. Good luck to you, sir. Strikerforce (talk) 07:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have struck part of a comment above which appears to me to be either plainly preposterous or in violation of WP:NLT. Either way, we don't want legal threats intimidating anyone's opinion at AfD. Please don't add any more legal threats, or anything that might be misconstrued as one. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Incredible, when "fellow editors" violate the common law (in addition to wikipedia's rules) this is of NO INTEREST to other "fellow editors" (too busy breaking the rules themselves). I think that all is said: the only thing you do is acting as a gang, protecting each-other, to advance your agenda at the expense of others.81.62.199.178 (talk) 05:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now you are just making things up as you go along. Whomever "DRose" happens to be, they did nothing wrong under any form of law on the G-WAN forum. Immature, perhaps, but not illegal. In regard to action on Wikipedia because of the posts that you linked us to, there is very little precedent - that I am aware of - for any sort of sanctions for off-Wikipedia actions like that, even if you could definitively prove the Wikipedia identity (if the individual even has a registered identity; they could be an IP contributor, the same as you are at this point) of "DRose". Please, stick to the facts of this discussion and working on making the article pass the various policy checks, rather than continuing to make attacks on other Wikipedia users. G-WAN has now been online almost five full days. If you care so much about the article, why have you done little (if anything) to save it? Strikerforce (talk) 06:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
StrikerForce, I do not have the power to force (or to pay) any media to publish an article about G-WAN. Nor, apparently, can the other 26 Web servers do it - but this is a problem only for G-WAN - thanks to your war against G-WAN.81.63.74.18 (talk) 13:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My "war against G-WAN"? Well now, that kinda sorta makes my day. I didn't know that I, as an individual with but a modest income, could afford to wage "war". I learned something new today. That bit of humor aside, you are missing the point, once again. "If X, then Y" arguments and unfounded accusations against other editors are not the way to go at AfD. AfD, while it has no set time limit, tends to run approximately seven days when there are editors (or in this case, an editor) strongly contesting the deletion. I mentioned above that G-WAN has been online for about 120 hours. That means that you've got about 48 hours left before somebody may come through here and make a decision on closure, one way or the other. Why not cease your invalid arguments here and focus on improving the article? Or, did you just admit defeat by saying that you "do not have the power to force (or to pay) any media to publish an article about G-WAN"? Perhaps I am drawing conclusions, but that sounds like an admission of non-notability. Strikerforce (talk) 13:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC) I have struck commentary that may be considered in bad taste and/or inflammatory, upon second thought. It was genuinely intended as humor and to attempt to lighten up the situation a little, but given the stress that the IP contributor appears to be under during this discussion, the comment may not have been taken that away, so I offer my apology, in advance.[reply]
*Comment: Are you sure? This all has now been proved to be a Make-up:
A Cherokee webserver Troll has been identified as (at least one of) the "fellow editor" working behind the scene to eradicate G-WAN[3], after an independent comparative benchmark largely turned in G-WAN's favor 85.2.10.158 (talk) 11:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of things to note about your comment, sir - 1) You should not bold large blocks of text in order to make a point, as it is considered disruptive. As such, I have removed the formatting from that text. 2) Once again, you have shown that you refuse to assume good faith. That link proves very little, if anything, and is largely a theory. (Side note: I have reformatted your remark slightly so that it maintains the indentation and doesn't make the page more difficult to read.) 3) Blogs do not typically qualify as reliable sources, so the second link that you have provided is, unfortunately, only marginally relevant to the discussion. Your article has now been online approximately 147 hours... and you continue to expend effort presenting wild conspiracy theories and circular arguments here, rather than improving the article. Strikerforce (talk) 11:55, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
information Administrator note Bugapi indef blocked, for blatant valdaism, WP:CIV, WP:SPA and another couple of policies. I initially placed a full protection on the article for three days to prevent more vandalism, but i lowered this to a three day semi now, as that should counter vandalism while allowing for improvements from other editors. Besides this, i'd ask all commentors to keep remember that this is not a ballot, and that using multiple IP's (sockpuppets) and asking other people to comment (meatpuppetry) is not allowed. I hasten to add that using these tactics equally won't sway the result of this discussion, as consensus is reached on the basis of adherence to the respective policies. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 21:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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