The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz talk 03:55, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Giora Ram[edit]

Giora Ram (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No evidence for notability, either by the GNG or WP:PROF. His company is not notable, his books are self-published, his papers are almost uncited--the two highest GScholar counts are 13 & 7. Highly promotional, so much so that it might even be a G11 candidate. I see my colleague Guillaume2303 has tried valiantly to fix it up, but after 2 months of work, ended up by tagging it for dubious notability. DGG ( talk ) 04:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Almost no references for the majority of the claims, most books are self published, not enough citations from peers on any notable works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharmlessCoin (talk • contribs) 04:34, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree with the above based on Wikipedia's own rules and definitions about "notability"

Wikipedia:Notability (academics) Criteria

Academics/professors meeting any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, are notable. Academics/professors meeting none of these conditions may still be notable if they meet the conditions of WP:BIO or other notability criteria, and the merits of an article on the academic/professor will depend largely on the extent to which it is verifiable.

Instead of one condition required, here are five:

1. The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources.

Please see "Selected publications and research works" In addition see Microsoft Academic Search: http://65.54.113.26/Author/18014943 Cited by 14 authors

2. The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level. In 1975 Ram won the ILA/IPA price for the best scientific publication honoring the late David Levine, "Image processing by computers". 3. The person is or has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association (e.g., a National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society) or a Fellow of a major scholarly society for which that is a highly selective honor (e.g., the IEEE).

This list of scientific memberships appeared in the original submission on 19 June 2010, which was deleted on 29 March 2012 by Guillaume2303:

Scientific Memberships • Information Processing Association of Israel – IPA, since 1975 • Association for Computing Machinery – ACM, Voting member since 1981 • Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers – IEEE, Member since 1981 • The Society of Photo-Optical Instrumentation Engineers – SPIE, member since 1982 • The American Association of Physicists in Medicine – AAPM, member since 1982

4. The person has made substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity.

Development of a new brain monitor, which was recognized and approved by the American Food and Drug Administration – the FDA.

5. The person is in a field of literature (e.g writer or poet) or the fine arts (e.g., musician, composer, artist), and meets the standards for notability in that art, such as WP:CREATIVE or WP:MUSIC.

Ram published five books 2 in English and 3 in Hebrew in diverse areas. His first book about ADHD was published by "Gvanim" and it is recommended by the Ministry of Education in Israel. The other books were published with a collaboration of Beit Alim for the distribution in shops, such as Steimatzky and Tzomet. The books in English appear also in AMAZON and B&N.

GNG - "Giora Ram" –wikipedia in Google gives about 17,500 results most are relevant. More than 2 years this article appeared in Wikipedia, it was edited by many Wikipedians, who did a good job in revising it. Accordingly, it is obvious that this article falls within the scope of Wikipedia and should not be deleted.

Yesikan (talk) 09:27, 7 November 2012 (UTC)(Note: User:Yesikan has made few or no edits outside of this and closely related topics. --MelanieN (talk) 14:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC))[reply]

  • Comment I'm sorry, but you're misunderstanding WP:PROF and WP:GNG. 1/ The link you give lists 5 articles citing Ram's works (with indeed a total of 14 different authors, not that this matters). This is way below what normally is considered notable here. At a minimum, several hundred citations would be needed. No disrespect intended, but I know undergrad students that have as many (or more) citations. 2/ That is not a highly prestigious award. 3/ Being a member of a society is not a distinction, usually all it takes is to pay the membership fee. What WP:PROF talks about is elected memberships that are a rare distinction. Ram has none, as far as I can see. 4/ Laudable as the development of a brain monitor may be, it only contributes to notability under this guideline if there are independent reliable sources that show that this has made an important impact. 5/ Publishing is what academics do. Writing 5 books is indeed an enormous amount of work, but, again, it only contributes to notability if others have remarked upon it. Being listed in Amazon is nothing out of the ordinary (they try to list every book published), the publishers were not highly reputable ones, and apparently nobody published a book review of any of them (again, reviews in blogs or on sites like Amazon don't count here). Finally, the number of GHits is irrelevant. But if a few of them indeed provide in-depth coverage of Ram, those could be used to establish notability. I haven't been able to find such, but perhaps you can. Hope this clarifies. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 09:49, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


*Comment –
Thank you for your prompt and detailed response. I hope you understand that as the contributor of this article I have to defend it…

Obviously, it is clear from your response that you realize the existence of contribution and notability elements, but not to the extent that you would expect from a top level of world famous scientist.
I claim that we can still find at least one element out of the five mentioned, or the combination of his total contributions, which will comply with Wikipedia rules. Before submitting this article, I have researched many similar articles in Wikipedia. I must say that there are many articles/individuals in this category whose contributions and notability are far less than Ram's.

Accordingly, deletion is a too radical step. I would recommend making the necessary revisions by other Wikipedians as they would find it needed and respect those (you included) who invested time in revising this article for the last two years.

Yesikan (talk) 11:24, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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