The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. — Cirt (talk) 01:51, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shadow people

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Does not appear to meet standards for notability. G-hits turn up ghost enthusiast websites, conspiracy blogs, Art Bell fan forums, etc. but I am unable to find multiple, serious and independent sources meeting WP:RS that cover the concept in a significant way. The subject originated on Coast to Coast AM talk radio several years ago but has since failed to gain any mainstream traction: no academic folklorist or established news outlet has seen fit to cover it in depth (or even in passing). Examiner.com, About.com and ghost-hunting websites are not particularly reliable sources and do not justify a standalone Wikipedia article, per WP:RS and WP:FRINGE. Perhaps a suitable target article can be found for a MERGE, but I'm not optimistic. LuckyLouie (talk) 18:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MERGE with ghost ~~or WEAK KEEP~~ Obscure reference (WP:N) to a well known subject by another name. Author might develop the concept further and show its relation to other relavent topics--User:Warrior777 (talk) 23:53, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Paranormal-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 00:57, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete unless a WP:RS can be found equating 'Shadow people' with ghosts or some other potential merge target (in which case merge/redirect). Very little mention except in unreliable WP:FRINGE media. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Google books returns several results for "shadow people" "shadow ghosts". Are these different from what is described in the article? utcursch | talk 04:17, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The results for "shadow people" certainly are (the phrase seems to be used as a metaphor in the titles of these books). Those for 'shadow ghost' seem to be closer to this context, but seem to be used mostly as a simple two-word description, rather than a specific subtype of ghost (let alone providing any discussion of such a subtype). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:24, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the Google books hits is that the phrase 'shadow people' is used to describe a very wide range of concepts from native tribes to secret societies to homeless people. And the book hits that do sync with the context of this article are either fiction/fantasy or written "in universe" by authors who are pushing a fringe view. I don't see any book hits from academic sources or anyone remotely independent to the subject. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:52, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I've only just noticed this Shadow people page exists. If is kept, I am willing to try to add refs as lack of verifiability is a big problem for the article. Stevo1000 (talk) 21:21, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article should focus more on the "Scientific explanations" section which is well sourced. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is however unclear whether any of the sources for these "Scientific explanations" actually even mention "shadow people". Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction doesn't. Thus this material borders on WP:Synthesis. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 04:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This one does Illuminating the Shadow People. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:49, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Having watched this article for years, I have to agree with Hrafn. The sciencenow material is about "the feeling that someone's following you". It's unrelated to the Coast To Coast AM-inspired "shadow people" claims that this article was intended to cover (see earliest article history) but for which no sources compliant with WP:RS can be found. - LuckyLouie (talk) 11:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Should we have an article on the feeling that someone's following you? Steve Dufour (talk) 14:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I find countless references from many sources relating to this topic. Many of those references might not pass muster for some as they may be blogs, "conspiracy" sites, occult sites, etc., however this type of topic is unlikely to have scientific or mainstream journalism references (although possible), being a "paranormal" subject. i.e., most journalistic entities might not write about ghosts, vampires, astral travel, alien sightings, etc. and, real or not, they fall within modern culture and beliefs. There seems to be at least one published book^[1] and also an upcoming motion picture^[2] as well. LaLaFoote (talk) 06:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is a topic of recent interest to me, so perhaps I am not spoilt by being wrapped up in the "Coast to Coast" element -- and I think I see part of the problem. I'm not a greatly experienced editor here, so perhaps someone who is could be of help. It seems that the term "Shadow People" is becoming more and more popularized as "the" term for a phenomenon (or whatever your preference is to call it) wherein people experience "sensed presences." There are many of these described within the article on Sleep Paralysis throughout different cultures. There is an article here^[3] which seems to neatly describe this somewhat, and has its own sources listed. I realize that some of the sources might not be allowed as proper references here -- another part of the problem.

Then there is a very well-researched article relating to this from the University of Waterloo^[4] concerning Sleep Paralysis and "Associated Hypnagogic and Hypnopompic Experiences." Much of what is described here falls within what the becoming-popularized term "Shadow People" encompasses. On the talk page for this article, someone mentions "Old Hag Syndrome," which term redirects to the Sleep Paralysis article. Also related is SUNDS, Sudden Unexplained Nocturnal Death Syndrome, which has many of its own references, and tied to this by many is the sense of a malevolent shadowy figure who "presses down" on a person within sleep paralysis, usually on the chest -- and this is a common element through many of the different cultural descriptions within the Sleep Paralysis article.

There is also a nice write-up about Shadow People at the CrystalLinks.com site^[5] which is a site that's been around since 1995, and its author, Ellie Crystal, seems to be regarded as a paranormal expert. She doesn't have her own Wikipedia article, but is referenced in at least a couple; she's a published author and has made many TV appearances, including on Jon Stewart's "Daily Show." She would seem notable enough to warrant an article, and I wonder if her site could be sourced here as being authoritative enough?

Then, I've found there is another upcoming feature film, starring Alison Eastwood and Dallas Roberts, which actually ties together the Old Hag Syndrome, Sleep Paralysis and SUNDS, also called "Shadow People."^[6] The link there is to news articles related to the film, and I also wonder whether any of these (as IMDb-recognized news partners) would be acceptable sources here. The film is being produced by Infinity Media, which was behind the Oscar-nominated "Capote," as well as "Just Friends," "The Devil's Rejects" and other well-known films.^[7]

What stands out is that this seems to be its own distinct "thing" apart from what people know as typical ghosts, apparitions or what-have-you and does seem deserving of its own article. As I've seen the talk page and history, I'm a bit afraid as a new editor to attempt to make edits to the piece as they might be ripe targets for the article's detractors. So perhaps a more experienced editor, such as Stevo1000 who volunteered above, might like to take a crack at this with some of the information I've given here? 71.138.116.179 (talk) 14:10, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, well I can certainly have a crack at improving the article if it is kept. Although I am busy at the moment improving other articles such as the Granada Television page. Verifiablity is a big problem for this page though but if we could get 20 good refs, then the article would be fine. Also I just want to make the point, if this article is considered not worthy because there are no refs from independent sources or outlets then many of the paranormal articles shouldn't exist either. Stevo1000 (talk) 14:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Stevo. I'm sure you know WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not really a valid criteria for keeping an article.

@71.138.116.179. It's not a question of "detractors" vs. "supporters", it's ensuring the article is compliant with WP:N and WP:FRINGE. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS rule, but the more I hear of it the more I consider it a farcical rule. My argument is about consistency across Wikipedia and establishing a accepted standard of criteria which is perfectly valid. Stevo1000 (talk) 20:08, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In this case we already have a valid and accepted standard of criteria that applies: WP:RS and WP:FRINGE. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:11, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would also point out that given the shear size of Wikipedia, an exception-to/violation-of (depending how you look of it) almost any standard, guideline, rule or policy can most likely be found. Therefore basing an argument on such exceptions/violations can be used to support pretty near anything, so such arguments are, quite reasonably, heavily discounted. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be two jobs here, one is to establish that the subject is notable, and then to find proper sources to improve and reference the article. So I've done some work to hopefully help with this.

The subject must be notable because there is so much written about it. Part of what seems to make it difficult to build a proper article could be in tying shadow people to the experiences described as part of sleep paralysis, but this can be done if properly sourced. There are at least two feature films already mentioned here and there is also at least one feature length documentary "Your Worst Nightmare ~ Supernatural Assault" available on YouTube which discusses the beings encountered within sleep paralysis, with experts including professors from Harvard and the University at Waterloo and others. Also there seem to be at least seven different books written about this.

According to WP:IRS, one acceptable source may be "authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject." Whether or not one believes in something, the paranormal, fairies, gnomes, unicorns or even the Almighty, each subject will have people who are considered authoritative about it. Heidi Hollis is so regarded and appears to be the first to have written a book about Shadow People and the Hat Man, "The Secret War: The Heavens Speak Of The Battle," Writer's Club Press, ISBN-10: 0595203310; and has authored two other books and numerous magazine articles, including a regular paranormal advice column. She has appeared on the "Coast to Coast AM" radio show at least four times, three of them discussing this topic as an expert. She has also appeared on "Discovery Channel's Mystery Hunters," Fox Wake Up News, participated in the Steven Spielberg/Sci-Fi Channel series "Taken," and many others. She has been the host of two paranormal radio shows: CBS Radio's "Heidi Hollis~The Outlander" and HV Talk Radio's "Heidi HOLLERS (with Heidi Hollis)." She often speaks at conventions and expos across the country. Her personal site is http://www.heidihollis.com, and her site discussing this topic: http://www.jesusisnojoke.com/theshadowpeople/

Those credentials should establish that what she writes about the subject is able to be sourced here. The next two book authors have also been called upon as experts and could probably be similarly vetted, and then their writings allowed as sourceable materials:

"Shadow World: True Encounters with Beings from the Darkside" by Brad Steiger, Anomalist Books, ISBN-10: 1933665270, ISBN-13: 978-1933665276 http://www.bradandsherry.com

"Darkness Walks: The Shadow People Among Us" by Jason Offutt, Anomalist Books, ISBN: 1933665378, http://www.anomalistbooks.com/offutt.html (Brad Steiger also writes the foreward in which he praises it as "the most thorough and complete work yet written regarding the mysterious beings that we have come to call collectively, the Shadow People")

About.com article, "Shadow People: What Are They?" by Stephen Wagner includes an interview with Jason Offutt), http://paranormal.about.com/od/ghosthuntinggeninfo/a/shadow-ppl-what.htm (About.com is owned by the New York Times Company, and this should be sourceable, or Offutt's statements as an expert, likewise)

"Dark Intrusions: An Investigation into the Paranormal Nature of Sleep Paralysis Experiences" by Louis Proud, Anomalist Books, ISBN-10: 1933665440, ISBN-13: 978-1933665443

"Shadow People: A Journal of the Paranormal" by C.T. Shooting Star, Publisher: iUniverse.com, ISBN-10: 9781440115653, ISBN-13: 978-1440115653

And a fictional story based upon the phenomenon, "The Non: A Story of the Shadow People" by Vaalen Rhane, AuthorHouse, ISBN-10: 1425969704, ISBN-13: 978-1425969707

While sleep paralysis seems to be a common starting point for shadow people experiences, it has its own WP article and has its own scientific explanations, and then the paranormal or hallucinatory experiences are worthy of a related but separate discussion. Out-of-body experiences would be a good comparison, some think they are real and some think they are vivid dreams, and likewise the common experience people seem to have with near-death experiences. It's the same type of thing and each of these has its own article and authoritative experts to source. I hope this offers a little more perspective on notability and possible sourcing. LaLaFoote (talk) 09:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

keep :: this page perfectly described several events that happened to me when younger. It was interesting to hear that others had similar experiences even though they may not be well referenced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.116.116.6 (talk) 22:53, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@LaLaFoot. Any sources that don't promote a FRINGE position on the subject (i.e., the supernatural exists)? I could not find one in your list. Fiction, if notable, is best located in an author/book/fiction article. Generic material about sleep paralysis belongs in sleep paralysis.- LuckyLouie (talk) 12:29, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.