The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Flip or Flop.  Sandstein  07:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tarek El Moussa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · El Moussa Stats)

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He is not notable for anything except for his roll in the show Flip or Flop which already has his own show. No need for its own page - Galatz^Talk 16:13, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating his wife's page the following related pages because its an identical page just with her picture and should be deleted for the same reasons:

Christina El Moussa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Galatz (talk • contribs)

• I disagree completely. As mentioned on Christina's Talk page, Tarek and Christina have HUGE fan followings, and Tarek's very public battle with thyroid cancer has amplified the public conversation around thyroid cancer more than anyone or anything else. Flip or Flop is one of HGTV's most successful prime time shows EVER, and they've been commissioned by HGTV for a spin off called Flip or Flop: At Home, which is basically a reality show about their personal lives. (i.e. The Kardashian Effect) The pair have also served as judges on Brother vs. Brother with Jonathan and Drew from Property Brothers (which happens to be another of HGTV's highly successful programs). Tarek and Christina are full blown celebrities and considered experts in the real estate field. Ryannjean (talk) 23:24, 4 June 2015 (UTC) User:Ryannjean is the creator of this article. Disclosure added per WP:AFDFORMAT.[reply]
  • You just made a great case for keeping Flip or Flop but not him personally. - Galatz^Talk 14:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I also think this page should stay up! I love anything about Tarek and Christina - why shouldn't they get their own pages? They're 2 different people coming together as a team. I love their show on HGTV and I love watching Christina and following her blog with Success Path. I think this page should absolutely stay up because these people are actually interesting and they're successful by doing good old fashioned american hard work. Keep their page up! I love these two! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aprilaslc (talk • contribs) 16:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC) — Aprilaslc (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Its wonderful that you love that, but that certainly does not make them notable - Galatz^Talk 14:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I might agree if Tarek and Christina were one hit wonders that existed solely on the show Flip or Flop, but considering the extensive amount of pull and notoriety that each of them have outside of Flip or Flop, I'm in full support of them having individual pages as a collective resource of them as people, too. Tarek and Christina were recently featured in PopSugar as well as Fox News, The Hollywood Reporter, and multiple mentions on People. None of these are highlighted on the wiki for the show, but are current and valid information about the people on the show. In addition to Flip or Flop, Tarek and Christina have a real-estate seminar company and their own Real Estate Company. While the two are often mentioned in tandem, there is often news specific to one or the other (Christina is expecting a baby boy in August 2015 and Tarek had his own press while battling thyroid cancer in 2013) so it would make sense for Wikipedia to have separate pages for each individual. AmyCC (talk) 21:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC) — AmyCC (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Problem is, there is nothing about them outside of their show. They wouldn't have been "featured" anywhere if it hadn't been for the show. Thus, they seem to have no independent notability. Drmies (talk) 00:04, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• I believe that the page should stay up. Their show has a large following and does show techniques of successful remodelling. Keep the page. Savolya (talk)
  • Again that is a reason to keep Flip or Flop not their individual pages - Galatz^Talk 14:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Galatz, its seems you are outnumbered. Wiki users want Tarek and Christina's pages to stay up. Also, based on WP's notability requirements, both Tarek and Christina meet the criteria. The opinions of those individuals on this page also support their notability requirements. People watch Flip or Flop because they love Tarek and Christina, not the show itself. All of the news articles and web sources cited here are about Tarek and Christina, the people and not Flip or Flop, the show. Tarek and Christina meet ALL of these criteria: Entertainers Actors, voice actors, comedians, opinion makers, models, and celebrities: Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions. (Flip or Flop, Brother vs. Brother) Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following. Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.(They are working hard to live the American dream, for better or worse, including cancer and infertility, and they just happen to be on TV while they do it.) Ryannjean (talk) 21:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Ryannjean (talk) 03:46, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why people tune in for the show is irrelevant (I'm watching it right now, and I'm not watching it for them). And no, they are not "opinion makers" or whatever, and the size of their fanbase (based on something as meaningless as Facebook likes, which isn't listed anywhere in our criteria for notability anyway) also doesn't matter--unless it is verified by reliable sources. But even then, they're clearly known for their show: they are not notable as real estate agents, for instance. Lots of people get cancer or are infertile (is that living the American dream? strange), and they don't acquire notability because of it. Drmies (talk) 00:04, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Since when does one or two person's opinion establish if someone is notable or not? Clearly, judging by the response to this AfD, people know who Tarek and Christina are and they can't get enough of them. Also, one of the criteria is that the person must have a significant fan following. How else would you measure that other than their social media? And BTW, 400K-ish followers is pretty significant to me. Please provide a suggestion as to how to measure fan following with a reliable source. Is People Magazine a reliable source? Because they wouldn't write about Tarek and Christina (as individual people, not the show) on multiple occasions if they weren't notable. Also, just because YOU don't watch the show for them doesn't mean the same can be said for the majority. YOU, as an individual, do not count as the majority. Ryannjean (talk) 23:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with Galatz. The show page is acceptable, the individual page is not needed, this content can be moved to the show page. -Rhmoore — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhmoore (talk • contribs) 21:16, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• This issue is right at the heart of something that I have been meaning to, and still plan to, explore in more detail. I just saw this show "flip or flop" for the first time today - never heard of it before. Naturally, I turned to Wikipedia to learn more about the people involved - but I find that the individusls' pages have been nominated for deletion. That is ridiculous. Whenevr someone is held out as an expert - or otherwise exhibits espertise such that Wikipedia users might want to learn more about them, there SHOULD be a Wikipedia page for them - not for their own agrandisement but rather becuase that is something that Wikipedia users should have access to. Recently I wanted to learn about the expertise of someone who was held out as an expert on the History Channel, only to find out that their page had been deleted, apparently because they did not have sufficient notoriety. But this person is generally ubiquitous on the History Channel, American Heroes Cannel, Discovery Channel, etc. Many of the comments were to the effect that the person did not have sufficient notoriety because the commentor had never heard of them. Again, no matter how unkown they are in general, if Wikipedia users are going to see them held out as expserts on TV, then we should be able to turn to Wikipedia to learn more about them - their credentials, human interest factors, etc. That is what Wikipedia users need and, I believe, want. Therefore, to argue that any such person should not be listed on Wikipedia because they are not sufficiently noteworthy is missing the point - the fact that Wikipedia users will want to learn more about them IS, or at least should be, the necessary criteria.

• • I feel like Tarek and Christina's page should stay up - they are notable, they are celebrities, they have been featured in a large number of national media - Print and TV. They have a huge social media following and in every way are public figures who deserve their own individual wikipedia pages. To delete these pages is unthinkable. Please don't delete them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JenBean1 (talk • contribs) 19:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC) — JenBean1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• • Again, there are no arguments here based on our notability criteria. Drmies (talk) 00:04, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• I won't consider this article for deletion, this is not about the show, this article refers about Tarek's life with its up and downs. It's more like a biographic article. The article doesn't break any rule nor policies regarding this type of pages in fact wikipedia encourages publishing material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources. External sources like people.com or myfoxla.com are considered high-quality sources. --Jakeryanadler (talk) 03:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC) — Jakeryanadler (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• I can't even believe you are considering deleting the personal page for Tarek El Moussa based on the grounds of notability. The guy can't go to the grocery store without being swamped by fans. He and his wife have been featured in People magazine and on several major TV stations, yet somehow some folks think this guy doesn't merit a page of his own? Wikipedia features many other so-called celebrities who are much less well known without flagging their pages for deletion such as Grant Cardone or washed up singer Fab Morvan from the ill fated pop group Milli Vanilli. Yet here is Tarek El Moussa who is one of the most accomplished and respected real estate experts in America with his own TV show and somehow his page is being targeted for deletion? Come on people. Let's be consistent and fair on Wikipedia please. The guy is famous in his own right and meets the notability requirement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AidaAnne5 (talk • contribs) 19:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC) — AidaAnne5 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • No, he is not famous in his own right--he is famous because of his show. Drmies (talk) 00:04, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually a lot of "notable" people with full-fledged Wikipedia articles are only famous because of their one reality TV show, i.e. Abby Lee Miller and Chloe Lukasiak. Based on this argument (which btw is pretty weak), what makes Tarek and Christina any different? Why do other "notable" reality TV stars make the cut but the El Moussas don't? There is absolutely a double standard here and it's affecting Wiki's credibility in a negative way. Ryannjean (talk) 22:53, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Galatz, and closing admin, this was a mess. Galatz, you forgot to list this in the log; I just did that--in case anyone was wondering why this has been open since May, and why it appears that only "new" users have opined here, by which I mean not the regular AfD folk.

  It is also clear that there are no real arguments presented here for keeping either article. The two fail our notability criteria in just about every way. They don't meet WP:ENTERTAINER since they haven't had "significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows", etc--they've only been in one, which obviates the need for a separate biographical article: their fates, as all the sources bear out (they're always "host of the HGTV show Flip or Flop", or words to that effect), are intertwined with that of their show. They don't meet WP:ARTIST since, well, they fail on all four counts. Since their importance outside of the show is pretty much non-existent (they're not notable because they were real estate agents, or one of them had cancer, etc.), what really applies here is WP:BLP1E: to put it plain and simple, they are notable only because of the show, and thus it is appropriate to merge the contents of both into Flip or Flop, which is what I would have done had I not run into this ancient AfD. Drmies (talk) 00:11, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I could not understand how this thread had not been closed yet. - Galatz^Talk 13:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• On the contrary, Tarek and Christina appear regularly on Brother vs. Brother^[1] and Property Brothers with Jonathan and Drew Scott. Another extremely popular show on HGTV. Yes, Tarek and Christina meet the WP:ENTERTAINER requirements: Multiple TV shows, HUGE fan following, and yes, they have made innovative contributions to the field of entertainment. Their show is among the most popular HGTV shows EVER^[2], and they use their platform for good, i.e. cancer and infertility awareness. I honestly don't understand why they DON'T meet the criteria. These article should stay on Wikipedia.Ryannjean (talk) 23:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• The El Moussa pages offer nothing except a popularity contest. There is no relevant biographical information about these two individuals. it is basically a public relations ploy. If Wiki decides to allow these pages, expect many more substandard entries. Bronx7 (talk) 22:59, 8 July 2015 (UTC) — Bronx7 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• A lot of the arguments to keep this article seem to fall into WP:ILIKEIT, which does not help the article's case at all. User:Galatz appears to be right on the nose regarding how flimsy notability is in this case. However, it may end up being kept anyway simply on WP:BLP grounds. Antoshi ☏ ★ 04:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge the two individuals' pages into the Flip or Flop page. The comments above by Drmies, Galatz, and Bronx7 state the case from Wikipedia's WP:NOT and WP:ILIKEIT perspectives perfectly, so I won't reiterate them. But I'm especially against having individual pages for people who would not have achieved celebrity/notability except for reality television. As realtors, they are not notable; as Reality TV stars, they are. Tarek and Christina's fan base should concentrate on augmenting the Flip or Flop page with material from these two pages. --Seduisant (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. -- Eclipsed (talk) (email) 19:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- Eclipsed (talk) (email) 19:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to show page as per Seduisant. Also, perhaps I missed it, and I think I know which whey they are leaning, but I didn't see an actual "vote" from Drmies. Finally the plethora of accounts with little activity outside these pages, or those seemingly created simply for this discussion, makes me very suspicious. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I said "merge" on 8 July. Drmies (talk) 16:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.