The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No consensus regarding the subject's notability has occurred in this discussion. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 16:42, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Winston Sterzel

[edit]

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This article should be deleted because it fails WP:GNG and there is a lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. The only current source is IMDb and various blogs which are unreliable. The claim that he is the "original Youtuber in China" appears to be unsubstantiated by any reliable sources. Simonliyiyu (talk) 06:11, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of South Africa-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 11:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 11:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - Winston Sterzel has received independent coverage based on his YouTube video log about a Westerner's perspective of China. For example:
- My Chinese Life: Winston Sterzel--The Original China Vlogger - A profile of Winston Sterzel on China.com, dubbing him "The Original China Vlogger", also an item in City Weekender Watch: China's Original Vlogger is a Shenzhener, and television coverage on CRI: My Chinese Life: Winston Sterzel--The Original China Vlogger
- Falling in love with SZ in three days -- The Shenzhen government website reposts a local news item about Winston Sterzel as he documents Shenzhen's growth and steady evolution.
- Watch Two Crazy Vloggers Drive 5,000km Across Southern China on Handmade Motorcycles -- The Beijinger reports on Sterzel and Tye's Kickstarter campaign for a video series travelling through Southern China by motorbike. Also press coverage in Shenzhen Daily Expat filming S. China trip documentary. This resulted in a video that is available, amongst others, on Amazon Conquering Southern China, and led to inclusion in IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes. And now a fully funded Kickstarter campaign for "Conquering Northern China" Conquering Northern China -- Adventure/Travel Series. Isofarro (talk) 06:48, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Take 5: YouTube Vlogger Winston Sterzel -- A profile / 10-questions interview of Winston Sterzel for That's Shenzhen, an online magazine part of the Hong Kong's Focus Media Group. Isofarro (talk) 07:35, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Spectrum Sino Radio Schedule -- Radio segment with Winston Sterzel titled "My chinese life Winston Sterzel". Spectrum Sino is a freeview DAB Radio station part of the GB Times Media company. Isofarro (talk) 07:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - as per above. Ayoopdog (talk) 15:10, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ - Having seen both sides of the argument, I did a Google search for this individual. The vlogger is not well-known outside of the specific niche he is operating in (plenty of vloggers with even more than 1,000,000 subscribers are not afforded their own Wiki page - although subscriber count itself is not a determinant of whether a person merits a page, it can be a factor in terms of gauging general renown). Nevertheless, not being well known is itself NOT necessarily grounds for removal (see WP:NPF). However, according to the same WP:NPF, the article should only include information relevant to the notability of the person. In this case, he appears notable due to the claim of his being the "original China vlogger", which would potentially merit the existence of this article. In my opinion, the merits of this claim are highly suspect, because there is plenty of evidence suggesting against the fact that he was the first vlogger in China. The articles cited by Isofarro from various travel blogs read more like press releases and do not appear to substantiate the claim that Sterzel is actually the "original China vlogger". Inkedotly (talk) 17:59, 9 May 2017 (UTC) — Inkedotly (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User has been blocked for abuse of multiple accounts. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 12:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC) [reply]
- "various travel blogs"? Please point out which of the above citations I provided are travel blogs. I can see only one, the That's Shenzhen one, that could be classified as a travel blog. The rest look like News, Lifestyle magazines, Government, and a Radio station, and owned/operated by Media groups. Isofarro (talk) 07:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete - Difficult to establish the claim to significance that he is the first China vlogger from reliable sources. Only reliable source is a passing mention about a video he made in a Forbes article, no mention that he is the first vlogger in China. 160.39.203.234 (talk) 21:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC) — 160.39.203.234 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Delete - No reliable source for the claim of original vlogger in China, which is really the only thing that would make him notable. Otherwise, he seems have an extremely small web presence, completely unremarkable subscriber count, and seems to only be "well-known" to a very small group of expats (who seem like mostly people he personally knows). The articles cited by Isofarro are mostly comprised of articles linking to each other (for example, the china.com link is just a repost/redirect to the cri.cn one), community blogs (cityweekend.com.cn), or things directly attributable to Winston himself (the kickstarter). I see no evidence that he's been covered by any significant publication. Digbybare (talk) 01:16, 10 May 2017 (UTC) — Digbybare (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Weak Keep - he is a well known personality and it's unfair, he should be allowed to stay if he is successful in his niche. 160.39.216.110 (talk) 03:16, 10 May 2017 (UTC)— 160.39.216.110 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. McGeary, Kevin (2015-06-05). "PRD People: Medical Trainer and Online Celebrity Winston Sterzel". The Nanfang. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  Winston Sterzel, 33, a British-South African medical training manager who has been in Shenzhen for eight years, has been praised by plenty of Chinese netizens for the astuteness of his online videos which give an introduction to the “real China.” His motorcycle tours have taken him to dozens of cities and small towns, but the portal through which he understands the Middle Kingdom is Shenzhen, a city he fell in love with during a business trip and came to despite having no contacts here.
  Sterzel has a large following on YouTube, Facebook, and Youku and has been featured in Shenzhen-based media eleven times. He has kindly taken the time to talk to The Nanfang about road trips, cold beer, internet celebrity and Chinese nationalism.
  ...
  After moving to Shenzhen eight years ago, he immersed himself in the local Chinese community while learning the language. …
  He works for a medical training company, training doctors in international hospital rules, etiquette, medical terminology and other things related to internships in Australia and Germany. Another one of his main activities is taking motorcycle trips around China. Either through business trips or lone adventures he has biked his way to Dalian, Inner Mongolia, Shanghai and many other far flung places. His videos about riding to Guilin gained 10,000 hits per episode, almost 80,000 in total.
  According to this December 2016 article from Hong Kong Free Press, "The Nanfang – an English-language digital news and commentary website for southern China – is closing after almost seven years, citing commercial challenges."
2. Gidge, Sky (2016-12-20). "Take 5: YouTube Vlogger Winston Sterzel". that's Shenzen. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  After 10 years of vlogging about Shenzhen, Winston Sterzel recently stepped into the wilds of making his YouTube videos a full-time job. Often appearing in a suit and drinking a beer, his video repertoire of city guides and interviews on taboo topics have earned more than 15 million views, making him the unofficial face of Shenzhen in the Anglosphere.
  that's Shenzen is a sister publication of that's Shanghai, that's Beijing, and that's PRD, which are all published by Urbanatomy Media.
3. Ye, Shangqing (2015-10-19). "Foreigner's Shenzhen videos have 8 million views". Shenzhen Daily. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  WINSTON STERZEL is the face of Shenzhen on YouTube. Searching “Shenzhen” in YouTube brings up his videos, which have been viewed more than 8 million times.
  Calling himself “the original China vlogger” Sterzel has posted 584 videos to YouTube since 2006.
  The South African, who was born to British parents, uses a digital camera to film videos with a focus on life in Shenzhen. The videos range from him speaking into the camera while walking down the street to polished guides to parts of Shenzhen.
  ...
  Sterzel’s videos include advice on renting an apartment, finding a job and even interviews about intercultural relationships.
4. Wang, Yuanyuan (2012-06-08). "British-South African telling people 'how China is'". Shenzhen Daily. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  WINSTON STERZEL, a British-South African, has always been a warm-hearted person who likes to help others. After living in Shenzhen for about six years, the 31-year-old is finding a new way to give that help — online videos that show newcomers what Sterzel calls the real China.
  Without any advanced equipment or complicated plots, Sterzel, a medical training manager and self-employed businessman, uses his mobile phone and years of rich experience in China to help foreigners visit or learn about the country.
  So far, he has made 12 episodes for his popular video series, “China: How It Is.” The series detailing Chinese lifestyles, customs and culture has generated about 900,000 views on YouTube, with more than 1,800 subscribers.
5. Zhang, Qian (2015-11-04). "Expat filming S. China trip documentary". Shenzhen Daily. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  CAMPING in a cold, wet abandoned shack is what Winston Sterzel did on the seventh day of his South China motorcycle tour. Sterzel and four others are filming a documentary about their 16-day trip that they hope will be out around Christmas time.
  ...
  The South African is uploading “behind the scenes” footage from the trip to YouTube and Youku, with the YouTube videos already racking up more than 10,000 views.
  ...
  Sterzel is effectively Shenzhen’s face on YouTube, with his 584 mostly Shenzhen-centric videos having been viewed about 8 million times since he began posting in 2006. Searching “Shenzhen” on YouTube brings up his picture, linking to videos where he talks about living in Shenzhen, finding jobs and intercultural relationships.
6. Gidge, Sky (2016-01-14). "Expat's video featured". Shenzhen Daily. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  THE adventures of a motorcycle riding, Shenzhen-based expatriate are getting noticed in Chinese media.
  Winston Sterzel’s video was featured yesterday on one of China’s most popular video-sharing websites, sohu.com. The preview for “Conquering Southern China” appeared at the top of Sohu’s documentary page.
  ...
  Traveling 5,000 kilometers by motorcycle, Sterzel and some friends documented their trips through southern China.
7. "Falling in love with SZ in three days". Shenzhen Daily. 2008-01-07. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10 – via Shenzhen Municipal E-government Resources Center.
  The article notes:
  
  WINSTON STERZEL, a Briton who grew up in South Africa, was convinced that Shenzhen was the place to be after a three-day business trip in 2005, following which he moved here.
  It turned out to be a wise decision as his company Access Oriental is booming. He is mainly in charge of sourcing, technical proofing and quality control of the company.
  ...
  Sterzel has a Chinese girlfriend here, and plans to stay in China for a long time. He hasn't been back to South Africa to visit his family; instead his family came to visit him in Shenzhen. "It is my place," he said.
8. Mullin, Kyle (2016-08-19). "Watch Two Crazy Vloggers Drive 5,000km Across Southern China on Handmade Motorcycles". The Beijinger. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  Winston Sterzel, and Matthew Tye have done what most of us only dream of doing – traversing 5,000km across southern China on ramshackle, handmade motorcycles, stopping to sample the most unique local dishes, filming every moment of their adventure. The pair of Shenzhen based Youtube vloggers – who go by SerpentZA and Laowhy86, respectively – recently worked with Beijing based editors Ricardo Afonso and Mark Masterton, turning their footage into a series called "Conquering Southern China," which is now streaming on Vimeo on demand.
9. 魏博 (2015-06-25). "12集纪录片《南非人在中国》在北京发布(组图)". 中国网新闻中心 (in Chinese). China Internet Information Center. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  纪录片主人公来自不同行业，他们中有酒店创始人、DJ、留学生、南非酒吧老板、高尔夫球场高管、拍摄中国的视频博主、中国功夫迷、国际学校老师、推广皮影戏的艺术家、建筑师、领事夫人等等。他们的故事既有特殊性又有代表性。例如，居住在上海的格兰特•霍斯菲尔德（Grant Horsfield）把生态旅游的概念引入浙江莫干山，他建造的“裸心谷”度假村给当地提供了一个绿色旅游的范例，并带动了当地经济；在深圳的温斯顿•斯得泽尔（Winston Sterzel），由于看到西方媒体对中国的报道与事实出入很大，决定利用闲暇时间拍摄真实的中国并介绍给世界；同是居住在深圳的马克•欧克莱尔(Mark O’Connell)，把自己在南非管理高尔夫球场的丰富经验带到中国
  This verifies that Winston Sterzel's name translated into Chinese is 温斯顿•斯得泽尔.
10. "南非男拍视频记录深圳". Sing Tao Daily (in Chinese). 2015-12-14. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  英裔南非籍男子Winston Sterzel住在深圳已将近十年，他从2007年开始制作关于中国见闻的视频并上传到视频网站，因为住在深圳，其视频的内容大多与深圳有关。Winston录视频的初衷是方便家人和朋友了解他在深圳的生活，没想到逐渐受到网民关注。最初，对深圳的好奇心驱使Winston四处游走，走得最远的一次，从东门走到了蛇口，20多公里路程，走过大厦楼底，穿过城中村，他一点也不觉得累。一个偶然的机会，Winston来到下沙村。跟其他地方相比，这座位于福田区西南部的城中村虽然破旧了些，却设施齐全。Winston看中这里的排屋租金便宜，又能接触到各种不同的人，就住了下来。
  From Google Translate:
  British South African man Winston Sterzel lived in Shenzhen for nearly a decade, he started in 2007 on the Chinese knowledge of the video and uploaded to the video site, because living in Shenzhen, most of its video content and Shenzhen. Winston recorded the original intention of the video is to facilitate family and friends to understand his life in Shenzhen, did not expect to gradually be concerned about the Internet users. Initially, the curiosity of Shenzhen drive Winston to walk around, go farthest once, from the East Gate went to Shekou, more than 20 kilometers away, walked through the building floor, through the city village, he did not feel tired. By chance, Winston came to Xiasha Village. Compared with other places, this is located in the southwest of Futian District, although the dilapidated village, but the facilities are complete. Winston fancy the townhouse rent cheap, but also access to a variety of different people, to live down.
11. "外籍深漂：城中村是深圳最有意思的地方" (in Chinese). Phoenix Television. 2015-12-14. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  “Hey guys,welcome to another video（大家好，欢迎收看新一期视频）!”
  几年来，视频制作者“SerpentZA”的粉丝习惯了他在每个视频开头这样问候。视频背景或许是繁华街头，或许是城中村的啤酒摊子，他自说自拍，用英文对着镜头讲身边的趣事，细碎而平和，像在与一位老友聊自己的近况。这位英裔南非籍的视频制作者原名Winston Sterzel，居住在中国深圳将近10年。
  从2007年开始，每隔一段时间，Winston都会制作出一个关于中国见闻的视频，上传到视频网站YouTube，因为他住在深圳，视频的内容也大多与深圳有关。到现在，他的YouTube个人频道已经拥有了600多个视频和10万多万订阅者，最受欢迎的“China,how it is（别样）”系列视频已累计拥有约750万次的点击量。
  From Google Translate:
  "Hey guys, welcome to another video (Hello everybody, welcome to watch the new video)!"
  Over the past few years, the video producer "SerpentZA" fans accustomed to his greeting at the beginning of each video. Video background may be the bustling streets, perhaps the village of beer stalls, he said that self-timer, with the English side of the lens to talk about the interesting side, crushing and peace, as in an old friend to talk about their current situation. The British-South African video producer was originally named Winston Sterzel, living in Shenzhen, China for nearly 10 years.
  From 2007 onwards, every time, Winston will produce a video on the Chinese knowledge, upload to the video site YouTube, because he lives in Shenzhen, the video content is mostly related to Shenzhen. Up to now, his YouTube personal channel already has more than 600 videos and more than 100,000 subscribers, and the most popular "China, how it is" series of videos has accumulated about 7.5 million hits The
12. "SerpentZA: Blogger ng Shenzhen" (in Filipino). China Radio International. 2015-05-14. Archived from the original on 2017-05-10. Retrieved 2017-05-10.
  The article notes:
  
  Si Winston Sterzel ay isang "laowai" mula sa Timog Aprika. Siya ngayon ay nakatira sa lunsod ng Shenzhen, probinsyang Guangdong, sa may timog na bahagi ng Tsina.
  ...
  Noong 2005, isang business trip ang nagdala kay Winston sa Shenzhen. Mula noon, nahulog ang kanyang loob sa Tsina.
  Nang makabalik sa Timog Aprika, ibinenta niya ang lahat ng kanyang ari-arian, at iniwan ang kanyang tahanan sa Johannesburg upang mamuhay sa Shenzhen.
  Sa kanyang pananatili sa Tsina, maraming natututunan si Winston, gaya ng maling pagkaunawa ng kanluran sa Tsina. Gusto ni Winston na baguhin ang mga stereotype at kamaliang ito.
  From Google Translate:
  Winston Sterzel is a "laowai" from South Africa. He now lives in the city of Shenzhen, Guangdong province, in the southern part of China.
  ...
  In 2005, a business trip brought with Winston in Shenzhen. Since then, he fell in China.
  After returning to South Africa, he sold all his property, and left his home in Johannesburg to live in Shenzhen.
  During his stay in China, learn more about Winston, like misunderstanding of western China. Winston wants to change the stereotypes and errors.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Winston Sterzel to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 05:13, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep 150+k subscribers might not be much nowadays, but consider that he is one of very few successful China Vloggers and in the niche he is probably one of, if not the biggest Vlogger. Other reasons were pointed out above. --Wolfguardian64 (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Sources are not reliable. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Delete. All the articles linked so far are for smaller publications/blogs written by freelance, volunteer, and anonymous contributors. He doesn't seem to have received any coverage from reputable sources. His only claim to notability ("first China vlogger") is also highly suspect. 67.180.22.236 (talk) 00:15, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- does not meet WP:ENT; promotional article. Associated with another nn YouTuber, whose articles is also at AfD:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matthew Tye (2nd nomination).

Sources presented above are not sufficient to establish encyclopedic relevance of this subject. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment about sources:
The Nanfang was "an English-language digital news and commentary website for southern China" according to the Hong Kong Free Press. Its editor in chief was Cam MacMurchy and its senior editor was Kevin McGeary. The Nanfang was cited by CBS News (link), The Washington Post (link), The Wall Street Journal (link), The Atlantic (link), and ABC News (link). From Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources:
One signal that a news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy is the publication of corrections.
Here are some corrections:
1. https://thenanfang.com/man-in-guangzhou-offers-to-sell-legs-for-20000-each/ –"Note: A correction was made at 5:23 p.m. October 10. He offered his legs for 200,000 RMB, not 20,000."
2. https://thenanfang.com/suicide-bomber-detonates-at-residential-complex-in-downtown-guangzhou-seven-people-are-dead/ – "Correction: The original version of this story indicated that seven people had died; in fact, seven were injured. Our apologies for the error."
3. https://thenanfang.com/a-baby-is-in-intensive-care-in-guangzhou-after-a-nurse-accidentally-fed-her-baijiu/ – "*Note: Initially, we mistakenly said it was a “seven-year old infant.” In fact it was a seven-day old infant. This has now been corrected."
Because The Nanfang had editorial oversight, published corrections, and was cited by numerous reliable sources, it passes Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources.
Shenzhen Daily is an English-language newspaper based in Shenzhen. It covers the subject in multiple lengthy articles.
The newspaper Sing Tao Daily (Canada) published an 857-word article about the subject. That a Canadian publication covered a British-South African man based in China strongly establishes that the man is notable. This is international coverage about Winston Sterzel.
The Hong Kong TV broadcaster Phoenix Television published a 1426-word article about him.
The Chinese state-owned radio broadcaster China Radio International published a 175-word article in Filipino about the subject.
It is clear based on the above sources that Winston Sterzel passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 04:56, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment about promotion:
The article was created by Sonofjoat (talk · contribs), whose user page says, "This user is a student editor in Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/Capilano University/ENGL 300 - Digital Writing Studio (Spring 2017)." The article was reviewed by L3X1 (talk · contribs), and content expert for the class Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk · contribs) provided feedback about how to improve the article.
The article creator is a student who wrote this article for a class. I see no intent to promote the subject
Cunard (talk) 04:56, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I can list 100s other vloggers who cover niche topics, are much more well-viewed/known, and still don't get their own bio or whose bios are deleted. Why does Sterzel get special treatment?? As much as subscriber count does not count, I don't think there's a single example of somebody with a bio who has less than 1,000,000. Sterzel has only 100K. You have to take that into consideration. It's not fair. 2001:470:1F06:C57:0:0:0:2 (talk) 04:16, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The 4 or 5 comments are really ducky looking and I thinking of filing of filing an SPI just to ensure everything is above board. IF they are actually legit (I doubt it) they should be ignored and the editors asked to gain more editing exp before !voting at a controversial AfD like this. Look at the page views! 193/day until the 9th, then 2000 views! I doubt all these people are here because the article is so popular dozens of guests who traffic it daily would feel obliged to get an account (or not, IP) and !Vote. Sorry for my lack of Good Faith, but socking in AfD is common, forgive my jaundiced eye. All those redlinks at the article? i think they are legitly different editors, and agree with NeilN's PP, but think it should be increased to indef or a very long time. And I voted Keep for the same reason I accepted it: Notable. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 13:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete not notable. Mjbmr (talk) 16:00, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because of what? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:10, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because of inadequate sourcing. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:30, 11 May 2017 (UTC).[reply]

Weak keep considering the nature of the available sourcing for material on blogs, I think it's acceptable. The use of viewer figures and the like proves nothing one way or another. People keep using that to try to show notability , and we usually reject that use, and it goes in the other direction also. DGG ( talk ) 23:38, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - Sourced, barely passes notability Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:26, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.