- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: Rename. If there is an advantage to renaming all of the sibling categories in the tree to follow a different form, then that should be dealt with using a nomination specifically for that purpose. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:11, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Propose renaming Category:Portuguese maritime history to Category:Maritime history of Portugal
- Nominator's rationale: It is clear to me that the category fits the framework of Category:Maritime history by country, since there are 20 other categories with the "Maritime history of X" format. However, I am earnestly trying to defuse an increasingly ugly situation on my talk page. User:Walrasiad, who created the category previously called Category:Portuguese maritime history, objected to the speedy renaming of the category to this format. Four admins explained to Walrasiad that this was not a valid objection for ignoring the speedy criterion known as C2C ("a rename bringing a category into line with established naming conventions for that category tree"). So I closed it on its normal schedule. Walrasiad has been repeatedly demanding I either tell him his objection was frivolous (I told him it was WP:SNOW) or admit I made a mistake. Despite my repeated attempts to give him options (relist, DRV, recreate, nominate the tree, accept the result, go to ANI), he refuses to do anything except hound me for satisfaction. So I'm relisting my original close for review, so that a discussion may be held on the merits of the category.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 13:59, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it really necessary in the meantime to clutter everybody elses watchlist with the category being moved back and forth while this is being discussed? SpinningSpark 15:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Apologies, but I felt it necessary to reverse my close rather than nominate this the other direction. That way, should a no consensus result occur, this would stay in Walrasiad's original format.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:00, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Procedural comment: The speedy renaming was contested in good faith by an editor who is (AFAIK) in good standing. WP:CFD/S is quite clear that speedy nominations be removed from the speedy process if contested, and there it seems very perverse to simply proceed with a renaming in the face of a sustained and non-frivolous objection, no matter whether an admin agrees with that objection. In such cases a discussion is needed, and the the place for a discussion is here at CFD, where the discussion can be separated from the mass of other speedy nominations and can be properly advertised.
I know that Mike is a conscientious and courteous admin, but in this case he made a mistake in overriding the objection. This discussion should now proceed as if the category was still at its previous name Category:Maritime history of Portugal, and the CFD closer should default to that title unless there is a consensus to rename it to the current title. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe I wasn't clear that the category name was originally "Portuguese maritime history." The category was only renamed to "maritime history of Portugal" by my actions. So what I'm doing is reversing my close and relisting it here so some other editor can make that decision one way or another.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:57, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, Mike, I misunderstood the situation. I still think that you erred in proceeding with the speedy reanme, but you have acted quite correctly in reversing your previous actions and bringing the matter here in this way, so I have struck the mistaken part of my comment above. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename per nom, to match Category:History of Portugal and everything else in Category:Maritime history by country. (There is no Category:Portuguese history.) Oculi (talk) 16:09, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename per nom. The form "<subject> history of <country>" not only matches the entries in Maritime history by country but also matches the form in all the subcategories of History by country such as Economic history by country and Natural history by country. SpinningSpark 17:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I am leaning towards supporting the renaming proposal, because a) it fits with the existing convention of similar categories (as noted immediately above by Spinningspark), and b) the "Foo of Bar" format for nation-related category names is clearer and more neutral) than the adjectival format "Bar-ian Foo" (not all countries have a consistent, neutral and unambiguous adjectival form for their name). Clear, consistent and unambiguous category names are a Good Thing™, because they help readers to parse category names more easily and they also help editors to categorise articles accurately. However, I will refrain from casting a !vote until Walrasiad posts hir reasons for objecting to the renaming. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- REname as nom. This primarily concerns the country of Portugal. User:Walrasiad seems to be overly possessive of his own view of what articles relating to Portugal should be called. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:54, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Thank you very much for the opportunity to continue the discussion begun previously on this move. I had composed much of the following in reply to some of the points brought up the in the other discussion.
Let me reiterate my sympathy for the need for consistency. Let me also underline that I am not arguing for an exception. I am principally arguing for the removal of this category "Portuguese maritime history" from the "Maritime history by country" tree.
I believe the name style chosen for the category tree is poorly conceived and inadequate for the purpose. Maritime history is not a subset of a history of a country. It is a history of the sea, more precisely seafaring. It refers to a technology, not a geographic location. The point of analogy should be to the history of space exploration and travel. The Category:Space programs by country category lists it duly by adjective - "Soviet space program", "Chinese space program", "Indian space program", etc. And that is how maritime history should be worded here.
As the creator of the "Portugese maritime history" category, and a principal writer of most of the articles contained therein, I would like to reiterate my intent behind the creation of this category. It is not, was not conceived, and is not intended, to be part of the history of Portugal. It was conceived as part of the history of seafaring, and collects articles pertinent to that. "Portuguese maritime history" means the same thing (in my intent) as "Soviet space exploration". That is, the history of the Portuguese at sea, just as the other is the history of the Soviets in space, contributions of the Portuguese to seafaring, just as contributions of the Soviets to space travel.
Whomever came up with this "maritime history of X" tree did not think this through sufficiently, and is imposing a convention that is inadequate to the task. It is not much of a convention anyway - it seems a pretty recent construction, and remains very sparse. Most major contributors to maritime history (Carthaginians, Arabs, Italians, Spanish, Dutch, etc.) are entirely missing. And I wouldn't be surprised if the poor choice of category title is a contributory factor to that sparseness.
Delineating the boundaries of maritime history by country is much more difficult than "land history" (which has more compact and firmer geographic boundaries). Countries are a piece of land, defined by legal jurisdiction, but navigation is much more fluid, and the sea belongs to no one, Mare liberum. So setting the boundaries of where one country's maritime history begins, and another country's maritime history ends, is fraught with difficulty. Indeed, it is counter-intuitive to even try delimiting it - the sea is a cross-country connector, the very point of navigation is go from one country to another.
The "Maritime history of X" makes an already difficult situation even more difficult, because "of X" also implies a specific geographic location, and brings in a secondary meaning (i.e. the history of a geographical area) which introduces a new angle of confusion. "Maritime history of Portugal" brings up connotations of seafaring in Portuguese waters, just as "Space exploration of the Soviet Union" brings up expectations of American spy satellites. It is poorly-chosen wording, clearly inadequate to capture what (I think) it is trying to capture. (although I see from many of the entries in the country-specific categories that in many instances it is precisely used in this geographic fashion, to refer to territorial waters, and not in the maritime history fashion of referring to nationality of ships, so I don't want to second-guess their purpose.)
This introduces conflicts between countries. Cape Bojador is Moroccan territorial waters, and seafaring in those waters, even if undertaken by citizens of other nations, is part of the maritime history of Morocco, not Portugal. The way it is worded it is promising to promote over-categorization and categorization wars between editors to decide whether an article belongs to the maritime histories of which country. Nationalist quarrels are never pleasant things. And if things are moved out or re-categorized, the whole unification purpose of a maritime history category is compromised and lost. It ceases to be about maritime history, and starts being about geographical waters and national turf.
Replying to some of the examples given above: "Economic history of", "Natural history of", etc. work well enough with the "of X" utilization, since it implies geographic containment of events within the boundaries of a territorial land unit defined by a legal jurisdiction; maritime history deals with events in an unbounded, non-territorial sea, with both no legal jurisdiction and crossing multiple legal jurisdictions. "Naval history of" poses no difficulties either, as it refers to the military of a well-defined government, a legal jurisdiction; maritime history is not government-related. "Maritime incidents by country" almost proves my point, since it refers to the territorial waters, not the nationalities, of the navigators or ships. The point of comparison of maritime history - seafaring - should be to technological categories, things like space exploration and travel, thus Category:Space programs by country, which is the closest analogy of seafaring, or even when confined, technological topics like Category:Architecture by country (or if you prefer, Category:Architectural history by country), which use the adjective form.
The adjective "Portuguese" (like "Italian", "Spanish", "Dutch", etc.) cuts through such messes in a jiffy. It implies navigation undertaken by nationals, which is clearer, more flexible and less controversial. It does not carry, like "of X" does, knotty implications about countries, governments or territorial claims. Moreover, it sidesteps issues of historical countries which no longer exist today, e.g. the contributions of, say, Venetians to maritime history are much less like to be objected to as being part of "Italian maritime history" rather than "of Italy". And certain categories, like "Arab maritime history", would be just impossible to transfer to a modern country - Tunisia? Algeria? Italy? Spain?
Categories should say what they mean. And I meant this category to mean history of Portuguese seafaring, which is expansive, and not the history of seafaring in Portugal, which is much narrower.
To those who suggest narrowness has its virtue, or that I shouldn't be putting so many things in this category if they are not narrowly "of Portugal", I disagree. Everything in this category is intimately related to Portuguese maritime history. I constructed this category for a purpose - to collect the articles relevant to Portuguese maritime history. Not those relevant to Portugal or the government or Portugal, or its territories or empire. But those relevant to maritime history. These articles were hitherto partitioned into a myriad of scattered, disconnected categories, often misclassified in an attempt to put them together with others (e.g. cartographers and financiers classified as "explorers", etc.) If someone hopes to get a grip or understanding of Portuguese maritime history, he need not look through a gazillion different scattered categories for associated topics, but can come here. It is useful to have it all in one place. That is why I constructed it. The "of X" label will destroy its unity, restrict it needlessly and split away related topics, depriving this category of any useful or educational function. In short, the category will become worthless.
The "Portuguese maritime history" title was carefully chosen as the one which captures the topic most clearly, the one I could easiest default to, one that could be threaded through all these articles and hold them together, with the least complications or challenges. But I didn't anticipate the category itself would be challenged.
I don't want to see this category amputated to fit in the procrustean bed of a confusing and poorly-thought "convention", I want to be able to continue writing articles on Portuguese maritime history trusting there is a category in which I know it will fit, with articles I know are related, and not have to rack my brains in indecision of how or where to classify it and go back to dismembering the topic, scattering articles across a myriad of categories.
If inconsistency in category titles is impossible to tolerate, then I would ask the community to consider the following alternative options (in order of decreasing preference):
- #1. I request that "Maritime history by country follow the example of space exploration and travel, and use the national adjective format, "Soviet", "Chinese", "Indian" etc. rather than "of the Soviet Union", "of China", "of India".
- #2. If that cannot be agreed to, then I respectfully request that the category "Portuguse maritime history" be entirely removed from "Maritime history by country", and left by itself under general maritime history.
- #3 If others object to leaving the title as is, even outside this tree, then I request that I be permitted to rename this category to something more specific that is sufficiently different, so as not to be confused with this category tree.
If these proposals are rejected and the category is moved as proposed, then I will have to move several articles out of it. Moreover, I will stop adding articles and cease maintaing this category. This is not facetiousness nor petulance nor claim of "ownership", but simply that "of X" will be too narrow, ambiguous and awkward to be able to hold what I hoped it would hold, and I think it should hold. A category constrained in this manner no longer serves the purpose I use it for, nor can I see any other purpose for it. I will also cancel my plans to unify articles in other areas of maritime history I also happen to work in - Arab, Italian, Spanish and Dutch - currently scattered around uncollected in the immensity of Wikipedia.
Portuguese maritime history is only one sliver of a general effort to lift the profile of maritime history as a subject area on Wikipedia. I urge editors to enable a category structure which allows an adequate organization that will enable a proper treatment of the subject, that will allow it to be furthered, rather than slip it into ill-conceived straightjackets inadequate for that end, that will keep it in its current messy state and discourage future development. Walrasiad (talk) 01:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename The fundamental problem with Walrasiad's objection is that the distinction he makes between the two titles is not a distinction that all readers make. I don't think anyone seriously finds it objectionable to categorize Cape Bojador as part of the maritime history of Portugal given that the route around it was found by a Portuguese navigator sent by a Portuguese prince (and that this was a big deal at the time). Cape Bojador is also part of Morocco and I can't imagine any editors lame enough to edit war about those two simple facts. More importantly, if such rabid nationalists were lame enough to edit war over Category:Maritime history of Portugal they would be lame enough to fight over Category:Portuguese maritime history. Clarifying the scope of a category is best achieved by a clear summary at the top of the category page, not by hoping that 100% of our readers share our own view of the fine semantic distinction between two almost identical phrases. Pichpich (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've witnessed enough edit wars over Moroccan, Western Saharan and Indian territorial claims, with particular prickliness over relics of colonialism, that are lamer than you can imagine. I'm not sure what kind of tag you want to place atop your category, as many of the entries currently in "Maritime history of X" country refer to geographical territorial waters, not nationality of the ships, so it would be from the outset an incorrect description of the contents (although if you would be kind enough to draft and present such a summary statement here, it would give me a better idea of what you have in mind). My treatment avoids all this. The phrasing is not identical. Just as "Italian explorers" and "Explorers of Italy" have different connotations, and are not really interchangeable. I am proposing clarity, correctness and facility. Outside the issue of consistency, I would like to ask commentators if they could outline what concrete benefits (specifically, benefits to articles on maritime history) they foresee getting from using the "of X" format rather than the national adjective. A little bit of cost-benefit analysis may go a long way here. I've outlined some of the costs already; I imagine proponents of renaming are able to see some benefits I am not seeing. P.S. - I would also like to request comments on the three alternative proposals I made above, which will help me know how to proceed. Walrasiad (talk) 20:16, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename per nominator.
Walrasaid, thanks for setting out your reasons for the objection. However, some editors will just say tl;dr. Deletion discussions are a place for brevity, not for prolixity.
Having read all your long first post, I still couldn't see any topics which wouldn't fit in the renamed category, so the 2.5 screenfuls of text was of little use to me. Your reply to Pichpich was a little more helpful, because it did give me some examples, but I am not persuaded that the problems are real -- they sound more like a problem with edit-warriors than of category scope. However, there may is a case for a wider RFC on how to categorise maritime history outside of national borders. All of the colonial powers pose obvious problems, but there are much wider issues: e.g. the port of Holyhead is a crucial part of Irish maritime history, as the primary passenger port from Britain to England for at least three centuries, and the history off that route goes back 4,000 years; the port of Liverpool has played a similar role for freight. The same goes for Dover & Calais, and countless other ports.
Rather than making WP:DIVA noises, why not try to build that wider consensus? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
- When a category change or deletion promises to put an end to all the work you've done, and prevent your continued work in the future, it is natural to be a little alarmed and take some effort in explaining your case. Not many people work in maritime history, and the critical importance of what seems like a subtle difference may be missed. That is hard to convey to non-specialists in a single sound-bite sentence. My text is long because I sense not many people know what maritime history is or what it encompasses, or have experience in such articles, or even articles on topics which are inherently cross-national and cross-cultural by their nature (since I joined Wikipedia and began developing maritime history, the only people that have really participated or even commented on this topic have been primarily Indians and Africans, so I am not merely "imagining" future problems, but conveying my experience with problems that have already arisen). It is made longer by having to address the erroneous analogies that have been made. I am not being merely deflective, but inviting them also to explain the benefits and consider alternatives that address my concerns while preserving theirs. I am willing to be persuaded and have invited compromise. But someone limiting his comments to merely saying "It ain't so" and cavalierly sweeping those concerns away is dismaying.
- I don't know if I sound diva-esque. I am conveying what I need to work with. I need a screwdriver to build what I build. If you take away my screwdriver and insist I use a hammer, don't be surprised if things stop being built. They may both be tools, but they are used differently.
- If a larger RfC is warranted, and I believe it is warranted, since this entire category tree name is wrongly-conceived, then can this move be suspended until then or that the process be initiated now? I don't want this category moved and then appear to be WP:POINTY in trying to get it turned back yet again or circumventing it by other means.
- P.S. As for your example, Holyhead is just one example that is easily and painlessly resolved by "Irish maritime history" but gets very messy with "of Ireland". Ditto for Calais, Dover, etc. Walrasiad (talk) 21:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I don't see any huge difference between the impact of the two. Considering the Holyhead example, most of the ferry traffic was on UK-owned-and-operated ferries, so I can see a case that it would be better to call it "maritime history of Ireland" than "Irish maritime history".
As to the tl;dr, just try less rhetoric and more examples. It is also unwise to suggest that other editors are aware of the international nature of maritime history. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- To be frank, I had Irish landing grounds of 6th-7th C. Anglesey in mind. UK didn't exist then. But if it is British ships, then it is British seafaring, not Irish. In that sense, you're basically committing the kind of error I have been fearing - confusing the geographic with the technological. It is precisely this that I want to avoid - the very reasoning you provide is the very justification for assigning most of the stuff the Portuguese ships did in Indian waters to the "maritime history of India", not Portugal. Now, I don't want to impose a narrow definition on you, but the expansive one you seem to be using is not the criteria I used to collect the articles in "Portuguese maritime history", and not a workable one by which to handle the topic I seek to unite. And I need that collection to stay together. So I urge again, let me rename and remove it from this category tree.
- I didn't say they weren't aware (although some of their national analogies belie it), I said they may not have much experience with such articles. (I added a bunch more more examples of problems, but subsequently edited them out so as not to "clutter" the page with words. I'll add them back in if you'd like).
- P.S. - I noticed you yourself noticed the difference between "American pornography" and "Pornography in the United States" and voted against a change to the latter. Can you not notice the same difference here? Walrasiad (talk) 02:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename per nom. I think most readers would consider "Portuguese FOO" and "FOO of Portugal" to be functionally equivalent. I understand the distinction the category creator is making, but I think it's too fine a distinction to worry about when it comes to category names. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- They're not functionally equivalent, as brown-haired girl demonstrated herself just above. This is not about category names, its about category functionality. "Portuguese FOO" is useful, "FOO of Portugal" is useless. One is likely to be maintained, the other not. Again, I'd like to request commentators to please address my proposal to remove and rename the useful category from this tree, so I can continue using and maintaining it. Or suggest alternative proposals of your own that will allow me to continue contributing to maritime history on Wikipedia. Walrasiad (talk) 22:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I said I think most readers would consider them as equivalents. I do understand that you disagree, but I think it's most important that our content reflects what readers would expect and understand, not necessarily what an expert would regard as the way to do it. I also don't think there would be a difference in "maintenance" of the category based solely upon the name, unless you're suggesting that if you don't get your own way on a specific issue you're just going to pick up your ball and go home. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Portuguese maritime history" is pretty clear, not hard to understand nor likely to cause confusion and perfectly fits reader expectations of what will be found there. "Maritime history of Portugal" is unclear, hard to understand and likely to cause confusion. As evidenced above, even commentators here are not sure if they expect articles about territorial waters or articles about seafaring. The two are not the same, and consequent classification where an article fits depends on personal interpretation, which means the content of these categories are not going to be reliable or stable or meet reader expectations. I am suggesting I am "taking the ball" and going home - although that analogy sounds more petulant than I mean. I cannot work with categories where related articles will be shifted out to the wrong place and the topic will be dismembered. It is a useless, pointless category. Screwdrives and hammers may both seem like "tools" to novices, but they have different functions in the hands of a carpenter. Of course I will not use a hammer to drive in a screw, because screws cannot be driven by hammers If you take away the screwdriver, I can't build. And if I can't build, don't be surprised if nothing gets built. Walrasiad (talk) 23:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that threatening to walk away if you don't get your way on a relatively minor point (a category!) is kind of an extreme reaction. But what you do in reaction is your business. WP is a consensus-driven work, not an expert-driven work, which some users have a hard time with. I'm not persuaded by such threats to change my mind on this particular issue, however. I think most people who have commented on this issue understand your concern; they just disagree with it. If things go against you on an issue, I find that it is helpful to do your best to understand where the other side is coming from and to work as you can within the system, even if you don't agree with everything in it. But again, that's your business, and, as the saying goes—no one is irreplaceable, so I'm confident that stuff will continue to be built in this area regardless of what happens in response to this isolated issue. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand it is consensus, which is why I have tried to present the case carefully (although apparently I am told I wrote too much for other editors to bother with...), I have proposed alternative compromises, but nobody has commented on them. I would love to understand where the other side is coming from, I have invited renamers to lay out the positive benefits of their case (beyond mindless "consistency") but they largely haven't tried. I don't think I've been unreasonable in attempting to discuss and reach a resolution. I do not think my concerns as a builder have been addressed, but simply dismissed. I'm simply being outvoted.
- I understand it is not driven by experts, but experts do do the building. And if you deprive them of tools, they simply can't. It's not that they're unwilling, it's that they're unable. So please don't make this out to appear to be petulance. If you allowed me to retain a screwdriver, or even addressed the possibility of retaining a chisel, a knife, a saw edge or something else I can drive screws with, I could continue building. But if you insist on a hammer, I simply can't. And if I can't build, I have little choice but to close up shop. As you say, I am not irreplaceable. And I do hope you do find someone with more skill, who knows to use a hammer to drive in a screw. Or maybe you can teach him how to do so, since you seem convinced it is so easy? But that's not me, it's beyond my ability. Walrasiad (talk) 00:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Honestly, this is too much melodrama for me! It's beyond your ability to add content to a renamed category? Really? Or is it that you just wouldn't want to? Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It is beyond my ability. I cannot construct a comprehensive category about Portuguese seafaring, if relevant articles are to be distributed across different categories because of the renaming. I will not have the single most important thing - a unifying category name - to weave them together. Haven't I explained that already? Walrasiad (talk) 01:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Walrasaid, you haven't persuaded any other editor that your concerns will impede categorisation as you suggest, and some of those commenting in this thread have been amongst the most experienced participants at CfD. You have persuaded me that there may be a slight difference between the two names, but it's marginal, and not enough to make a substantial difference. And now, Good Ol'fcatory in right: too many words, too much melodrama. G.O. suggested ways of dealing with the change, and I have suggested that you open an RFC on how to use these categories, but per WP:DIVA that's the end of what I'll say here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:19, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Before the discussion was moved here, Walrasaid's attitude was "I don't mind losing a case fair and square. But I do mind being cheated." Now, faced with the threat of "losing a case fair and square", the attitude is one of "I [will] have no choice but to close up shop"? This is why I referred to this situation as being way too much ... Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now hang on there. That is highly unfair. I don't mind losing the case, I am not going to race to complain to other forums nor try to circumvent it. But that has nothing to do with whether or not I am able to work with the results as a builder of these articles. And it is in that capacity that I have spoken. I would appreciate if you refrained from personal aspersions or attempted character assassinations of other editors, and focused on the matter at hand. Walrasiad (talk) 02:14, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It just doesn't make much sense to me that a renamed category suddenly makes you "unable" to build articles. Why not just say, "well, they chose a name for it that I don't like", and continue on as normal? I'm not trying to assassinate your character, but I am saying that some of your comments appear to be a bit over the top, or at least diva-ish, as has already been said. But I suppose BHG is right and I should just quit making comments here regarding the side-show nature of it all. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Because the renamed category has different definition, connotations and criteria for inclusion, which implies a different collection of articles will be contained there. Articles on maritime history will not be united, but dispersed and destabilized. The purpose of the category (as I constructed it) was to bring the articles on maritime history together in a unified, stable way. The result of the renaming, will be to make it impossible to keep them together. It's as if a children's physician tried to create a category on "pediatrics", and suddenly found it renamed "podiatrics" and put together with articles about feet, and non-feet articles relevant to pediatrics moved to other categories. He tries to explain the difference, but for some reason he doesn't get through. Everyone thinks "pediatrics" and "podiatrics" sound practically the same. What is there left for a pediatrician to work with? Is he supposed to maintain the resulting podiatrics category?
- I'd appreciate it if you guys please backed off the diva business. I know you guys have a lot of experience with categories. But that doesn't mean you're experts on all subjects, or that you know how to classify everything properly. Sometimes, just sometimes, a guy who actually writes on the subject and uses and maintains the category has good reasons for thinking it is not workable, and is not merely throwing a hissy fit.
- I don't know the way to go. Unfortunately, my contributions to Wikipedia are limited to simply writing articles on maritime history, not navigating these far more complicated waters. I was already tripped up by one admin. I thought that longer discussion meant this was the place to attempt to make my case and try to build consensus. Now I am told this is not the place and I have been wasting my breath. I am not a patroller of categories, I don't know the rules, procedures or expectations of how these things are supposed to go around here. Maybe brown-haired girl is right, and maybe an RfC should be opened. I don't know the procedures all these things, whether an RfC can be intiated now, who is to write it up, where or how, or if this move can be suspended until the results of that are obtained. I don't want to appear pointy or trying to circumvent procedure. This, I believe, is your point of expertise, so I would appreciate any guidance here. Walrasiad (talk) 04:23, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- If this category is renamed, I think the best approach you could take is nominate all of the subcategories of Category:Maritime history by country for naming to the "FOOian maritime history" format using the WP:CFD process. (Essentially, this is what I understand your proposal #1 above to be suggesting.) That way, the concerns about consistency are somewhat neutralized, since even if the proposal is accepted, consistency will still remain. That would make it far more likely that the discussion would focus on what is the appropriate naming format for this class of categories. If you are unsure how to start such a nomination after this one is closed and can't figure out the instructions on WP:CFD (it can be a bit trickier for multiple category nominations), I would be happy to assist you with it if you let me know on my talk page that you need help. I would not be discouraged that your proposals have not been directly addressed here. Typically users kind of consider one proposal at a time for simplicity. There's no reason you can't make a fresh proposal after this one closes, though. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename per nom - there is no reason for this to be an exception to the rest of the Category:Maritime history by country tree. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:27, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose You know, I was looking all this over to close it. But after reading quite a bit of background, it appears to me that the whole structure we have is backwards. Part of the problem is the fact that we're using the word "maritime" - a term who's usage goes back literally hundreds of years in multi regional laws and treaties. The cats should not be maritime x by country, because it presupposes maritime history of the country's government. Part of the problem also seems to be that we're conflating at least two things (and it's being done in the articles too). To use the UK for example: The maritime history of events involving people who are from the UK/ships owned by people (which could include royalty and/or governments) from the UK - a location of a person's nationality. And: maritime history of events near the UK - a geographical location. So the issue as I see it, is the name suggests that the events are due to UK govt action, among other things. (I'll spare everyone a digression into language usage and the genitive case : ) - So I would like to see this closed as no consensus and a new nom dealing with the broader structure using "maritime". (consensus not being a vote, yadda yadda, more preaching to the choir : ) - jc37 00:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I like the current format better. It matches Category:Military history of Portugal, Category:Political history of Portugal, Category:Legal history of Portugal, and other similar social history, natural history, and the like. I see no reason this should be different.--Mike Selinker (talk) 21:17, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with your comparisons, is (mostly) use of the word "maritime", which military/political/legal simply do not compare to. - jc37 05:44, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on jc37's proposal. I would have no objection to a new nomination where the structure of the entire tree is reconsidered. For the time being, however, I don't see the point of closing this as no consensus. Why not just make this change to get all the categories in line, and then we can have a group nomination to change them all? Doing so will resolve the issue of dealing with a "mixed bag" in the group nomination and will make it clear to all that the categories being nominated are all of the same "type" or class. If they have a problem—they will all have the same problem, and that will help focus discussion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- We often have "test noms", so no reason to not do this right, now, and follow it up with the rest? - jc37 05:44, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, yeah—maybe originally but at this stage I get the impression that everyone who has been involved in this is tired of this issue—at least in the context of this discussion being open. It might be easier to rustle up new input with a new nomination. I'd hate to see it closed as no consensus though in case the new proposal ended as no consensus—that would put us back to stage one, and stage one was pretty painful, at least for Mike it was. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- After giving this (and a bunch of related category trees) a major examination, I think the solution to this is: Rename, but Split the individual people to Category:Portuguese maritime people per Category:Portuguese people, and similar convention of Category:Maritime writers, Category:Maritime historians, Maritime pilot, Maritime artist and Maritime explorer. (The last two are redirects.) And I want to mention that all these "history by country" trees need a massive cleanup. - jc37 23:21, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Assuming the rename happens, I'm fine with whatever you do with those articles. OK, since we all (except Walrasiad, who has bid adieu) agree, can this be closed?--Mike Selinker (talk) 01:08, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename per nom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 07:31, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment A good analogy is "Diplomatic History of X". This would largely cover things done by that country and its agents outside its boundaries. The same would probably apply to categories like Category:Military history of the United States, Category:Military history of Portugal and related categories. The issue here is not that those involved were neccesarily "Portugese" but that they were acting as agents of Portugal.John Pack Lambert (talk) 07:48, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's exactly the issue. The question of whether acting as agents of portugul, or just events in the territorial waters near portugul. - jc37 21:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Adieu @ Good Olfactory, Thanks. Although I had a bit of an epiphany today, so I am not sure that is necessary anymore. Before you roll your eyes and moan *more drama*, let me assert it is a happy epiphany, calmly and rationally weighed, and I am quite comfortable and even delighted with it.
- I've only been on Wikipedia for about a year and a half. I registered primarily to improve the coverage of 14th-17th C. maritime history, which was practically non-existant before I arrived. I've been rather spoiled by the fact that no one else was working in that area (and perhaps just as few interested) and thus my work was largely undisrupted. I learned to coordinate my efforts with people working on Moroccan, Indian and African history articles and while there were some occasional difficulties with kooky nationalists, it went rather well in retrospect. So I expanded and deepened my efforts and made sure to cooperate with people in related fields whom I would affect and was affected by.
- But events since this January have shaken that little utopia. In quick succession, I have experienced two/three unanticipated and wide-ranging changes from afar, which have been highly disruptive and quite bruising and consuming of my time and effort. Moreover, these disruptions were not from people working in the field, or any related field, with whom I could communicate or coordinate or discuss to reach an accomodation, nor did they seem interested.
- I've realized working quietly in a lonely field has its benefits, but also has its costs - not only in lack of feedback, correction and contributions, but also in the sense that when push comes to shove on wide-ranging disruptions that affects that field, there's no one but me to defend it.
- So maybe it's about time to call it quits. I was thinking about it already. In the run-up to the 500th anniversary of Amerigo Vespucci last week, I prepared a high-quality, meticulously-researched article which was, frankly, damn good. So good that I was rather reluctant to give it away to Wikipedia and have been toying with the idea of retaining it for myself. I remembered I had also been holding back in-depth articles on Henry the Navigator, the Portuguese discoveries, India armadas, Italian portolan cartography, Italian maritime manuscript collections, navigation rules, Dutch voorcompagnie, etc. And much, much more in an earlier state of development.
- The epiphany is that it would probably better serve the public if I created a distinct website on maritime history, rather than try channeling the material through Wikipedia articles. I have done so before on economics and economic history, but I didn't want to do the same for maritime history, sensing I didn't have enough material for a stand-alone site and could probably benefit from the contributions of others. But those contributions haven't really materialized and I realize I have been writing practically all the articles anyway. So I don't really see the benefit of going this route anymore.
- Wikipedia is a nice idea, but when it comes to specialist topics, it may not be the best venue to reach and teach the public. My experience in the past two months has taught me there are too many other dimensions, too many people, and too many layers involved, that the earnest task of building content, to inform and to educate, can get bogged down and lost in that. I could count those recent disruptions as exceptions, but I expect such problems to increase in frequency the more I contribute. When measured rationally, the cost far exceeds the benefit. It is probably best to cut my losses now, shoot the white elephant before it grows further.
- I don't want you to imagine I am directing this at you or anybody here, nor at Wikipedia itself. It is just that this latest episode finally made me realize that the Wiki model doesn't really work for me, that I need more control of my output, and there is an alternative way to go.
- I did a comprehensive rewrite of the article on the Columbus Letter on the First Voyage a few days ago, just before this little crisis erupted. It was a gift, a reaction, to a disgruntled IP reader who stumbled upon it and complained that the existing Wiki article was empty of content. That will probably be my last contribution to Wikipedia. I might stick around to tweak a couple of Moroccan history articles - there are other custodians there - but I am permanently transferring my efforts on maritime history elsewhere.
- Thanks for everything. I didn't know where else I should post this. Walrasiad (talk) 04:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.